(26 Jan 2022, 7:41 pm)Omega54 wrote Passengers are back at 70%, 25% of that is concessionary passes, nexus is slashing that to 5%, so realistic GNE revenue is going to drop by 20%. 

That is ridiculous.

I don't follow, Nexus are reducing the concessionary rate by 20%, so if that's 25% of GNE's revenue, then it would be 20% of 25%, so their revenue would only drop by 5%?

(26 Jan 2022, 8:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't follow, Nexus are reducing the concessionary rate by 20%, so if that's 25% of GNE's revenue, then it would be 20% of 25%, so their revenue would only drop by 5%?

That’s still a hefty percentage!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(26 Jan 2022, 8:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't follow, Nexus are reducing the concessionary rate by 20%, so if that's 25% of GNE's revenue, then it would be 20% of 25%, so their revenue would only drop by 5%?

Oh sorry, I withdraw my comment, I thought he meant reducing it by 20% to 5%, 5% is still a massive percentage. 

Company make 50 million (pre pandemic), 2022, 70% which is 35 million, drop that by 5%, now down to 30 million.

(26 Jan 2022, 7:30 pm)Omega54 wrote What do you think they should be going?

For me consolidation is key at this point which and the only way of achieving that is merging certain services together to make one route or by eliminating competition on shared corridors such as the Coast Road which has been mentioned numerous times.

I personally feel Go North East with everything that has gone on in the past 2 years with Covid that they kind of where they were at in 2006 before they done the major network shake up and cut the loose ends that weren't turning a profit and introduced brands to market the services, I don't think the branding aspect in the delivery of service is what is harming Go North East it's cutting and changing every few months, If they left things as they were and as the saying goes "If something isn't broke, don't fix it" then they'd find over time and i'm not talking short term but long term they'd have a more stable and reliable network of services and for me looking at their network of Services i'd say they only have a select few of these and those are their "Flagship Services" such as the Angel 21, Prince Bishops 20, City Rider 56 to name a few, whereas as had already been compared in previous posts on this thread both Stagecoach and Arriva have a higher amount of these as other than timetable tweaks for reliability and reductions in frequency over the same time period there services have barely changed. How many times have Go North East operated a 96 Service in West Gateshead to MetroCentre, cut it and merged with something else in this case the Coaster 1 as it was not turning a profit before reverting back to how it was several years later.

Looking at North Tyneside and their Percy Main operations i'd say they would better off handing the contracts for services 1/11/19 & 41/42/42A over to Stagecoach as they could easily merge together with their own core and very well established services at Wallsend which may well happen as part of BSIP or Enhanced Partnership, I also feel this would be of benefit to those who live in North Tyneside as they'd be provided with better Cross-City Links without needed to change Buses at Wallsend for example.

Elsewhere how many times has the Washington Mini Bus Ops been changed, is it still Simply Washington, Washington Street Shuttle, Indigo or Links Pinks, it's had that many changes even i'm getting lost as to whether it is 2022 or if i've time travelled back to 2006, the Venture Network in Stanley and Consett and the 33 in Sunderland are other examples I can think of straight off the top of my head, the developing pattern here has been established that as an Operator when it comes to services changes the same mistakes are made time and time again at Go North East, for me whoever makes those decisions really should be held accountable as they have played a major role the damage to the network we see today.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:23 pm)Omega54 wrote Oh sorry, I withdraw my comment, I thought he meant reducing it by 20% to 5%, 5% is still a massive percentage. 

Company make 50 million (pre pandemic), 2022, 70% which is 35 million, drop that by 5%, now down to 30 million.

Which company made 50 million what pre pandemic?

Go North East published accounts show a profit for the year ended 30 June 2019 of £2.85 million.

The Coast Road is a funny one. Whilst the 306/308 have been stable, GNE have seriously upped their game on the 309/310/311 since 2013 and certainly 2016 onwards.

If anything other than minor changes, I see no reductions to the 309/310/311 as at most, a PVR of 3x would be saved unless GNE made very deep cuts. And given Arriva's potential circmstances (Jesmond Depot) and the need to review and streamline things, GNE would be wise to take advantage of that unless BSIP actually comes in.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:40 pm)busmanT wrote Which company made 50 million what pre pandemic?

Go North East published accounts show a profit for the year ended 30 June 2019 of £2.85 million.

It was purely a example.

---

(26 Jan 2022, 8:35 pm)Malarkey wrote Elsewhere how many times has the Washington Mini Bus Ops been changed, is it still Simply Washington, Washington Street Shuttle, Indigo or Links Pinks, it's had that many changes even i'm getting lost as to whether it is 2022 or if i've time travelled back to 2006, the Venture Network in Stanley and Consett and the 33 in Sunderland are other examples I can think of straight off the top of my head, the developing pattern here has been established that as an Operator when it comes to services changes the same mistakes are made time and time again at Go North East, for me whoever makes those decisions really should be held accountable as they have played a major role the damage to the network we see today.

In fairness the 33, is very busy most times. Well whenever I see, I do believe that does turn a profit. 

And for me I was going to ask earlier what do people think GNE FlagShip servcies are I could only really think of a few, X10/21/20/60/X1 - and the X10/X9 is not what is was. I think the coaches did more harm than good.

While the Xlines X45/46/70/71/72 etc are the most high spec I wouldn't really call them the flagship routes, even though I think that is what GNE had in mind.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:50 pm)L469 YVK wrote The Coast Road is a funny one. Whilst the 306/308 have been stable, GNE have seriously upped their game on the 309/310/311 since 2013 and certainly 2016 onwards.

If anything other than minor changes, I see no reductions to the 309/310/311 as  at most, a PVR of 3x would be saved unless GNE made very deep cuts. And given Arriva's potential circmstances (Jesmond Depot) and the need to review and streamline things, GNE would be wise to take advantage of that unless BSIP actually comes in.

The EP will sort the Coast Road. It will be rationalised I suspect by the summer.

Unfortunately Qualifying Agreements aren't quick though, as you need to tick quite a few legal boxes.

Operators will be focused on sorting their immediate financial concerns first I suspect.

(26 Jan 2022, 5:44 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think the SNE network works as it does, cos it doesn't take someone an hour plus to get to work or the shops. 
They can get from a - b pretty easily.

Using Newcastle as an example. 
Newburn to Quorum. 
Killingworth to the Business Park... You get the gist.

The footprint of the network is pretty small vs ANE or GNE and if someone does need to change buses, they're not sitting there for the best part of an hour on the first leg.

It's stable because it works.

However, when you compare it to Shields, Sunderland and Hartlepool, I'm not sure I am of the same opinion.

I've kept quiet on these rumoured changes on purpose. It's well documented what I think GNE do and don't need to do. They're seemingly sticking with the slashing method and I'm not convinced it's the right method.

Aye totally get what your saying and honestly don't disagree about it tbh.

(26 Jan 2022, 8:23 pm)Omega54 wrote Oh sorry, I withdraw my comment, I thought he meant reducing it by 20% to 5%, 5% is still a massive percentage. 

Company make 50 million (pre pandemic), 2022, 70% which is 35 million, drop that by 5%, now down to 30 million.

Revenue: 150m
Costs: 140m
Profit: 10m

Reduction by 20%

Revenue: 120m
Costs: 140m
Loss: 20m

Just saying

(26 Jan 2022, 8:50 pm)L469 YVK wrote The Coast Road is a funny one. Whilst the 306/308 have been stable, GNE have seriously upped their game on the 309/310/311 since 2013 and certainly 2016 onwards.

If anything other than minor changes, I see no reductions to the 309/310/311 as at most, a PVR of 3x would be saved unless GNE made very deep cuts. And given Arriva's potential circmstances (Jesmond Depot) and the need to review and streamline things, GNE would be wise to take advantage of that unless BSIP actually comes in.

But why should they 'take advantage of it'. It's a horrible selfish attitude and it's partly the reason they're in the mess they are anyway. Just because you use the 311, those buses shouldn't be there to be frankly honest. They offer nothing bar petty competition. The sad thing is if Arriva did do streamlining, it'll be some other community, somewhere like Amble because it happens to be in the middle of nowhere getting the brunt of it but you won't care as it's not your area.

GoNorthEast don't have a network in North Tyneside anymore. The 1 during the day only, the 41 Monday - Friday during the day only and a few routes along a horribly congested road competing against someone else isn't a network. If GNE wasn't there, you could make the argument Arriva would make more profit and could potentially attempt to make some of the local routes commercial like the 11 in particular.

I might be being brutal but there's no need for GoNorthEast anymore, you could get arid of the 309 tomorrow and there'd be a very very small minority who would be affected similar with the 311 if the 310 served Hadrian Park all day.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:05 pm)RobinHood wrote The EP will sort the Coast Road. It will be rationalised I suspect by the summer.

Unfortunately Qualifying Agreements aren't quick though, as you need to tick quite a few legal boxes.

Operators will be focused on sorting their immediate financial concerns first I suspect.

To be honest, Arriva & GNE jointly operating the 308 & 309 (as they did with the 308 before 2008) would be the ideal scenario with a combined frequency along common sections of routes.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:07 pm)Storx wrote Aye totally get what your saying and honestly don't disagree about it tbh.


Revenue: 150m
Costs: 140m
Profit: 10m

Reduction by 20%

Revenue: 120m
Costs: 140m
Loss: 20m

Just saying


But why should they 'take advantage of it'. It's a horrible selfish attitude and it's partly the reason they're in the mess they are anyway. Just because you use the 311, those buses shouldn't be there to be frankly honest. They offer nothing bar petty competition. The sad thing is if Arriva did do streamlining, it'll be some other community, somewhere like Amble because it happens to be in the middle of nowhere getting the brunt of it but you won't care as it's not your area.

GoNorthEast don't have a network in North Tyneside anymore. The 1 during the day only, the 41 Monday - Friday during the day only and a few routes along a horribly congested road competing against someone else isn't a network. If GNE wasn't there, you could make the argument Arriva would make more profit and could potentially attempt to make some of the local routes commercial like the 11 in particular.

I might be being brutal but there's no need for GoNorthEast anymore, you could get arid of the 309 tomorrow and there'd be a very very small minority who would be affected similar with the 311 if the 310 served Hadrian Park all day.

To be honest, if I won a decent amount on Euromillions, I'd pay GNE £10m not to run services along the Coast Road just to eliminate 90% of the content he posts.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Bazza wrote The question is why?

What was GNE doing wrong?  Does it show that all the gimmicks (Branded routes, constant rebranding,  fares, special routes, hi spec buses etc etc) made no positive difference whatsoever to the bottom line of the balance sheet? Perhaps even had the opposite effects due to the extra costs incurred.

(26 Jan 2022, 2:59 pm)Storx wrote Probably more to do with the routes imo. Arriva and Stagecoach have some very strong corridors (X10/X11/X21/X22/X15/X18/306/308/6/7/63/64/X93/1: Arriva), (1/39/40/62/63 and so on: SNE). Apart from the 20, 21, 56, 60 and X1. There's nothing that really stands out in terms of making a fortune. On the otherhand they have some very weak routes, (82/83/11/42/42A/5/26/28/29/Peterlee locals).

Not sure there's much you could really do with some of the routes realistically as there's just not the demand and over the years they've butchered the network to a level where there's literally nothing left to butcher.

It doesn't help there's the Metro / Arriva and SNE dominating most their areas neither with the routes you realistically want.

(26 Jan 2022, 3:35 pm)Bazza wrote ANE and Stagecoach have kept there routes more or less stable.   It has been mentioned that Arriva have made cuts, but these have been frequency reductions rather than routes being curtailed, diverted or stopped.  it seems like GNE chop and change very quickly. How many different brands have there been in the last few years?

Although I asked the question of why the recent and forthcoming cuts were so stark with GNE compared to the others, I think the question of why they had different starting positions is quite clear.  As others have pointed out GNE and SNE had pretty massively different portfolios of routes, with SNE still basically being confined to urban ex Corporation boundaries, whereas GNE have more diverse, more rural and by and large longer routes, with less easy profit to cream off.

That said, the fact that the performance of GNE has been consistently challenged, despite over a decade and a half of branding and gimmicks, might suggest they aren’t working.  Not the cause, but also very clearly not a solution.

I do think the stability/instability of the network has a role to play.  SNE are undeniably rigid and I think could do with refreshing or improving some services – but again variations not wholesale cuts.  The reverse is true with GNE which has for years and now worse than ever in my opinion is a complete basket-case of changes.  While SNE would do well to be a bit more imaginative, the GNE network would surely benefit from a period of stability (i.e. what the Sept cuts were meant to bring, then the Oct ‘tweaks’…) – really does seem changes are made on top of changes without enough time for travel patterns to settle.  It does seem bizarre GNE put effort into producing and updating branded material for the likes of ‘the Blue’ yet four months and two timetable changes on, there’s still no sign of an actual Blue branded bus.

It does appear, from the outside looking in, to be a maybe less resilient operation, forced to respond to the challenges of the pandemic more drastically and sooner than competitors – yet at the same time the most vocal about ‘fit for the future’ and ‘we’re better than ever’ etc.  Appreciate these slogans have been dropped of late but arguably ill-conceived in the first place as they become a hostage to fortune.

(26 Jan 2022, 5:44 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think the SNE network works as it does, cos it doesn't take someone an hour plus to get to work or the shops. 
They can get from a - b pretty easily.

You have clearly never tried getting from A to B on the 32/32A!

(26 Jan 2022, 9:07 pm)Storx wrote Aye totally get what your saying and honestly don't disagree about it tbh.


Revenue: 150m
Costs: 140m
Profit: 10m

Reduction by 20%

Revenue: 120m
Costs: 140m
Loss: 20m

Just saying


But why should they 'take advantage of it'. It's a horrible selfish attitude and it's partly the reason they're in the mess they are anyway. Just because you use the 311, those buses shouldn't be there to be frankly honest. They offer nothing bar petty competition. The sad thing is if Arriva did do streamlining, it'll be some other community, somewhere like Amble because it happens to be in the middle of nowhere getting the brunt of it but you won't care as it's not your area.

GoNorthEast don't have a network in North Tyneside anymore. The 1 during the day only, the 41 Monday - Friday during the day only and a few routes along a horribly congested road competing against someone else isn't a network. If GNE wasn't there, you could make the argument Arriva would make more profit and could potentially attempt to make some of the local routes commercial like the 11 in particular.

I might be being brutal but there's no need for GoNorthEast anymore, you could get arid of the 309 tomorrow and there'd be a very very small minority who would be affected similar with the 311 if the 310 served Hadrian Park all day.

Go North East are my favourite operator, but they don't really have much to offer besides cheaper fares when only their services. They don't have a solid network in Newcastle or North Tyneside (although I would argue their Cobalts are better than Arriva's 306/308 and if the 309 journey time was equal to Arriva's 308 for Whitley Bay it would be even better. Personally I'd send Arriva through Cobalt and GNE via 306/308 routes). Hexham is best accessed by train and the 685 is far more established, the Hexham minibus network should be operated by an independent. South Tyneside is mainly Stagecoach territory but Durham services need to remain GNE as Durham and Gateshead are GNE's strongest territories. Really Sunderland is Stagecoach territory for the most part.

Without GNE the gaps could be filled, Weardale in Consett, Stanley Travel in Gateshead (maybe A-Line too). Of course Stagecoach in Newcastle, Arriva in North Tyneside. Durham maybe Arriva? Stagecoach or Arriva would be a bigger loss.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:22 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Although I asked the question of why the recent and forthcoming cuts were so stark with GNE compared to the others, I think the question of why they had different starting positions is quite clear.  As others have pointed out GNE and SNE had pretty massively different portfolios of routes, with SNE still basically being confined to urban ex Corporation boundaries, whereas GNE have more diverse, more rural and by and large longer routes, with less easy profit to cream off.

That said, the fact that the performance of GNE has been consistently challenged, despite over a decade and a half of branding and gimmicks, might suggest they aren’t working.  Not the cause, but also very clearly not a solution.

I do think the stability/instability of the network has a role to play.  SNE are undeniably rigid and I think could do with refreshing or improving some services – but again variations not wholesale cuts.  The reverse is true with GNE which has for years and now worse than ever in my opinion is a complete basket-case of changes.  While SNE would do well to be a bit more imaginative, the GNE network would surely benefit from a period of stability (i.e. what the Sept cuts were meant to bring, then the Oct ‘tweaks’…) – really does seem changes are made on top of changes without enough time for travel patterns to settle.  It does seem bizarre GNE put effort into producing and updating branded material for the likes of ‘the Blue’ yet four months and two timetable changes on, there’s still no sign of an actual Blue branded bus.

It does appear, from the outside looking in, to be a maybe less resilient operation, forced to respond to the challenges of the pandemic more drastically and sooner than competitors – yet at the same time the most vocal about ‘fit for the future’ and ‘we’re better than ever’ etc.  Appreciate these slogans have been dropped of late but arguably ill-conceived in the first place as they become a hostage to fortune.


You have clearly never tried getting from A to B on the 32/32A!

Wonder if it might also have to do with the type of networks they've both pushed. GNE pushing the hub and spoke model hard whereas Arriva and SNE have long bus routes connecting two (or more) hubs but serving lots of little communities in between.

I know certain people on here like pushing that hub and spoke is the future but looking at what's going in North Tyneside it can't be anything of the opposite since GNE are now pretty cancelling all of the spokes.

Like just picking Ashington out of anywhere, it doesn't matter where you live in Ashington there will be a service direct to Newcastle nearby some quicker than others but it's a service. Similar to Newbiggin along the road with both direct links to Newcastle, Ashington and Morpeth argubly the 3 places they'd most likely want to be. Compare to that to say Washington where a very small amount of the town have a direct service to Newcastle, Sunderland or Chester Le Street. If you live in say Teal Farm and want to go anywhere you have to piss about with a minibus to a hub to then change to go anywhere which no doubt don't connect with anything.

I know which network I'd have and the fact the first isn't subsidised at all currently and second is probably says something.

Maybe we’re seeing the last dying gasps of a 40 year experiment in bus deregulation.   

Many people / companies have made a lot of money in that time, but the public have very little improvement, in terms of service delivery levels, to see and take away from deregulation.   

If operators have to work together to make services sustainable, I’d rather profits generated are ploughed back into public transport than salted away overseas or into the pockets of the wealthy shareholders

(26 Jan 2022, 9:41 pm)Storx wrote Wonder if it might also have to do with the type of networks they've both pushed. GNE pushing the hub and spoke model hard whereas Arriva and SNE have long bus routes connecting two (or more) hubs but serving lots of little communities in between.

I know certain people on here like pushing that hub and spoke is the future but looking at what's going in North Tyneside it can't be anything of the opposite since GNE are now pretty cancelling all of the spokes.

Like just picking Ashington out of anywhere, it doesn't matter where you live in Ashington there will be a service direct to Newcastle nearby some quicker than others but it's a service. Similar to Newbiggin along the road with both direct links to Newcastle, Ashington and Morpeth argubly the 3 places they'd most likely want to be. Compare to that to say Washington where a very small amount of the town have a direct service to Newcastle, Sunderland or Chester Le Street. If you live in say Teal Farm and want to go anywhere you have to piss about with a minibus to a hub to then change to go anywhere which no doubt don't connect with anything.

I know which network I'd have and the fact the first isn't subsidised at all currently and second is probably says something.

I dunno I don't really see SNE (and dont know enough about Arriva ops to comment) being much better on that front to be honest.  SNE 'cross city' routes in Sunderland and Newcastle only work if you happen to want to go from e.g. Silksworth to Doxy or or the Sunderland North Estates.  You still need to change to get to plenty of places as they binned off all of their more 'community serving' linking up routes over the last couple of decades (likes of 5, 6, 7, 14, 17, 18/19, 21 etc in Sunderland and 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 etc in Newcastle).  Hub and spoke definite demotivator for public transport usage overall; convenient as it may be for the operators.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:50 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I dunno I don't really see SNE (and dont know enough about Arriva ops to comment) being much better on that front to be honest.  SNE 'cross city' routes in Sunderland and Newcastle only work if you happen to want to go from e.g. Silksworth to Doxy or or the Sunderland North Estates.  You still need to change to get to plenty of places as they binned off all of their more 'community serving' linking up routes over the last couple of decades (likes of 5, 6, 7, 14, 17, 18/19, 21 etc in Sunderland and 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 etc in Newcastle).  Hub and spoke definite demotivator for public transport usage overall; convenient as it may be for the operators.

Yeah fair points, must admit I don't know SNE in general too well and to be fair it's probably not the best to compare against anyway as they're very different networks one being an urban network and the other being intercity pretty much but at least the hub Stagecoach uses is somewhere where people actually want to be. In comparison to the likes of Stanley, Consett, Wallsend, Peterlee etc because let's be honest who really wants to go to them.

But between GNE and Arriva the networks are very different. The 22/23/24 are a good example down in Peterlee with them running around the estates but then extending off to either Sunderland / Durham / Hartlepool depending where you are or all three if your in the right area. Compare that to GNE's approach where you have to get a little bus to Peterlee then you can't change to anything because they butchered all the long distance routes so they stick out like a sore thumb.

The urban areas of GNE imo are alright in general like Gateshead bar the changing of certain routes numerous times (96 as someone mentioned).

Public transport on arriva and GNE despite the regular services along the coast road are actually doing its purpose and having bums on seats.

You may critise GNE and tell them to give up!

Tell NUFC to give up and leave the football league as they are in the relegation zone it's the same philosophy

I saw in previous posts Dan explaining and defending the decision to extend services and tweaking them

We should not be on this forum promoting the abolishing of bus services and companies from areas because as soon as they go and the competition is removed that competition will not return even decades later we have routes that have never been restored think of OK bus services as an example.

We haven't seen those services back have we?

What you also have to remember is speculation and and encouraging companies to leave a particular region means a strategic consideration along with job losses for drivers

What I have read tonight is basically slagging off GNE

There is tough decisions about this budget meeting on 2 February 2022!

If you live in Tyne And Wear contact your local NECTA Representative if you have ideas on how Nexus can increase the revenue.

There has also been criticism with GCT operating services.

Tonight has given me an insight on doing some hypothetical maths and it looks like to run an hourly secured service with one bus on an hourly route is about £40 an hour . Instead of attacking we should realistically look at how to increase passengers onto a service that Costs about £40 an hour to run at least i do agree with Dan on why little tweeks to services is the future as oppose to new services

Cutting services and removing operators from an area in 5 years time we see a service issue going from 10min to 20min to 30min then hourly

Remember before covid

Services to estates in CLS were operated by Scarlet Band every 2 hours!

In the countryside they have one service a day in each direction

We should be fighting for more services if we are enthuisasts not less!

For every one bus that is removed from service is about 2-3 bus drivers job loss and the knock on effect on labour hours elsewhere

I hope we are not promoting job losses are we?

Sorry for chapter 1 on War and Peace... if you have never read the book it's a good read and apologies for the rant.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:50 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I dunno I don't really see SNE (and dont know enough about Arriva ops to comment) being much better on that front to be honest.  SNE 'cross city' routes in Sunderland and Newcastle only work if you happen to want to go from e.g. Silksworth to Doxy or or the Sunderland North Estates.  You still need to change to get to plenty of places as they binned off all of their more 'community serving' linking up routes over the last couple of decades (likes of 5, 6, 7, 14, 17, 18/19, 21 etc in Sunderland and 2, 3, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 etc in Newcastle).  Hub and spoke definite demotivator for public transport usage overall; convenient as it may be for the operators.

I hope you are not blaming SNE for the disappearance of the Newcastle routes you list. Most of those hardly made it to the advent of Busways, never mind SNE !

The death of the high Street has a strong factor of bus companies creating cross service operations giving no purpose for passengers to get off and change

We used to have feeders to the metro like Heworth or Wallsend buses went to them and you were forced to use them to get to Newcastle or Gateshead quicker.

What we now have is Nexus Assets occupying bus interchanges and wasted space in terms of provisions for bus layovers and breaks when it's not necessary look at Heworth we could build a lidl on the arrival side and still effectively run a bus station

Infact a drive through could be added to increase footfall at Heworth to generate rental increase and passengers

I don’t think anyone is promoting job losses but we have to be realistic in how we got here and where we go from here, we probably should fund public transport in a better way, but it doesn’t win votes so we won’t. It’s too easy to push this whole thing on covid, it’s not just Covid. Covid exposed frailties for sure but we’ve been creaking at the seams in GNE terms for years. Private companies have done alright out of the network for a long time, it can’t be one way anymore.

The GNE network and branding has been so scattergun, even the flagship routes. Look at the 21 in the last 25 odd years. We’ve had: 221, Classicliner 21, 21-24/7, pink Angel ,red Angel, panicked pink deckers Angel again, hybrid green and newer green. You don’t see the same chaotic approach at Arriva and GNE (and this is on a route aside an hourly X12 they hold a monopoly on)

Even the ticketing has had so many changes and tweaks and gimmicks where SNE have…dayrider/mega rider. The zones make no sense. A purple zone carries you from barley mow/Birtley to Blyth and Ashington but not to Chester le St where you might want to go shopping or socialise

(26 Jan 2022, 11:56 pm)N391OTY wrote I hope you are not blaming SNE for the disappearance of the Newcastle routes you list. Most of those hardly made it to the advent of Busways, never mind SNE !

They all made it well into Stagecoach years, and almost all in fact into the 2000s, so very much SNE cuts.

(26 Jan 2022, 11:23 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote Public transport on arriva and GNE despite the regular services along the coast road are actually doing its purpose  and having bums on seats.

You may critise GNE and tell them to give up!

Tell NUFC to give up and leave the football league as they are in the relegation  zone it's the same philosophy

I saw in previous  posts Dan explaining and defending the decision to extend services and tweaking them

We should not be on this forum promoting the abolishing of bus services and companies from areas because as soon as they go and the competition is removed that competition will not return even decades later we have routes that have never been restored think of OK bus services as an example.

We haven't seen those services back have we?

What you also have to remember  is speculation and and encouraging companies to leave a particular  region means  a strategic consideration along with job losses for drivers

What I have read tonight is basically slagging off GNE

There is tough decisions about this budget meeting on 2 February 2022!

If you live in Tyne And Wear contact your local NECTA Representative if you have ideas on how Nexus can increase the revenue.

There has also been criticism with GCT operating services.

Tonight has given me an insight on doing some hypothetical maths and it looks like to run an hourly secured service with one bus on an hourly route is about £40 an hour .  Instead of attacking we should realistically look at how to increase passengers onto a service that Costs about £40 an hour to run at least  i do agree with Dan on why little tweeks to services is the future as oppose to new services

Cutting services and removing operators from an area in 5 years time we see a service issue going from 10min to 20min to 30min then hourly

Remember before covid

Services to estates in CLS were operated by Scarlet Band every 2 hours!

In the countryside they have one service a day in each direction

We should be fighting for more services if we are enthuisasts not less!

For every one bus that is removed from service is about 2-3 bus drivers job loss and the knock on effect on labour hours elsewhere

I hope we are not promoting job losses are we?

Sorry for chapter 1 on War and Peace... if you have never read the book it's a good read and apologies for the rant.

I agree with what your saying in principal but this is different to other areas. GNE have left their area on their own accord so it's not the same as OK Buses etc. 

The 4 core routes which they have left in North Tyneside the 1/309/310/311 are covered by other operators mainly and the sections which aren't would quickly be picked up (I'm not advocating a drop out immediately without selling up etc). They would never be dropping to hourly though.

The 309 in particular is a right nuisance for Arriva and offers very little unique. £3.90 for a 308 ticket I believe it is nowadays which is too cheap. Without the 309 that could be increased to a more realistic price say £5.40 (which is good value) which is an extra few pounds not to mention the punters stolen on the 309 as it's all it is pretty much (used to be a joint operation). 

With that extra money and the fact you've got everyone with the same ticket then possibly they could look at bringing some of the links which are now or are soon going to public funded. 

This is purely North Tyneside only, not other areas which I disagree that they should be selling up.

(26 Jan 2022, 9:45 pm)Bazza wrote Maybe we’re seeing the last dying gasps of a 40 year experiment in bus deregulation.   

Many people / companies have made a lot of money in that time, but the public have very little improvement, in terms of service delivery levels, to see and take away from deregulation.   

If operators have to work together to make services sustainable, I’d rather profits generated are ploughed back into public transport than salted away overseas or into the pockets of the wealthy shareholders

I think we'd all like to see that, but it's never going to be prevented, not even by franchising. It'd have to be a complete transfer of everything into public hands. 

Enhanced Partnership schemes and the Bus Service Improvement Plans that have been drawn up all over England would have been a huge step forward in working together at long last and working in the interests of the public, but there were questions asked from the outset on the sustainability of it. With the NBS budget slashed by more than half before any plans were put into motion, there's now a £5bn funding gap between what is required and what is on offer.

(27 Jan 2022, 12:15 am)DaveFromUpNorth wrote The death of the high Street has a strong factor of bus companies creating cross service operations  giving no purpose for passengers to get off and change

We used to have feeders to the metro like Heworth or Wallsend buses went to them and you were forced to use them to get to Newcastle or Gateshead quicker.

What we now have is Nexus Assets occupying bus interchanges  and wasted space in terms of provisions for bus layovers and breaks when it's not necessary look at Heworth  we could build a lidl on the arrival side  and still effectively run a bus station

Infact a drive through could be added to increase footfall at Heworth to generate rental increase and passengers

I'd say Heworth is necessary for rail replacement operations on the central section. It's a good base and allows buses to be parked up without impacting other traffic, which you can't really do anywhere else on the network.

Adding something to encourage cars to come to into a bus station sounds like a recipe for disaster. 

(27 Jan 2022, 12:39 am)Ambassador wrote I don’t think anyone is promoting job losses but we have to be realistic in how we got here and where we go from here, we probably should fund public transport in a better way, but it doesn’t win votes so we won’t. It’s too easy to push this whole thing on covid, it’s not just Covid. Covid exposed frailties for sure but we’ve been creaking at the seams in GNE terms for years. Private companies have done alright out of the network for a long time, it can’t be one way anymore.

The GNE network and branding has been so scattergun, even the flagship routes. Look at the 21 in the last 25 odd years. We’ve had: 221, Classicliner 21, 21-24/7, pink Angel ,red Angel, panicked pink deckers Angel again, hybrid green and newer green. You don’t see the same chaotic approach at Arriva and GNE (and this is on a route aside an hourly X12 they hold a monopoly on)

Even the ticketing has had so many changes and tweaks and gimmicks where SNE have…dayrider/mega rider. The zones make no sense. A purple zone carries you from barley mow/Birtley to Blyth and Ashington but not to Chester le St where you might want to go shopping or socialise

That funding conversation is going to have to happen sooner or later. It's easy to blame Covid as the cause of something, as you say, but I think it's accurate to say that the Covid impact on passenger numbers has accelerated what we'd have seen over the next 10 years anyway under the current system.

Deregulation has failed and without significant Government funding, most of the country is going to be left with a skeleton service at best.

(27 Jan 2022, 1:12 am)stagecoachbusdepot wrote They all made it well into Stagecoach years, and almost all in fact into the 2000s, so very much SNE cuts.

Really !

The 2 parallelled the 1 through Heaton before setting off to Walker / Montagu Estate, the 15 Jesmond Circle bit the dust when Newcastle's central motorway was built and isolated part of the route from Barras Bridge to Jesmond Road, and the 19 Walker Circle disappeared about the same time, leaving Benfield Road without any regular buses for many many years. I live on the route of the former 15 and 19 so I know when they stopped running and it was well before 2000.

Unless you are aware of these route numbers being reused subsequently.

(27 Jan 2022, 7:58 pm).N391OTY wrote Really !

The 2 parallelled the 1 through Heaton before setting off to Walker / Montagu Estate, the 15 Jesmond Circle bit the dust when Newcastle's central motorway was built and isolated part of the route from Barras Bridge to Jesmond Road, and the 19 Walker Circle disappeared about the same time, leaving Benfield Road without any regular buses for many many years. I live on the route of the former 15 and 19 so I know when they stopped running and it was well before 2000.

Unless you are aware of these route numbers being reused subsequently.

Seems you are thinking of route numbers in Newcastle from way further back than those I was referring to.

The 15 operated from July 1988 (for a long time as 14/15 circulars) under Newcastle Busways, TWOC, Newcastle Busways again, Stagecoach Busways and well into Stagecoach stripes (existing until maybe 5 years ago) though by the end just as the 15.

The 19 I am referring to was introduced in July 1988 as part of the 18/19/20 grouping (now just the 18 remains, and only in part) and existed for decades through the Busways years and well into Stagecoach (19 went in 2006).

In terms of the Sunderland routes, again I was referring to post-dereg numbers from late 80s onwards.  Prior to that believe routes in Sunderland hadn't carried 1 or 2 digit numbers since 1973...

The bus network regardless of where you are isn't helped by a number of different factors.

The obvious one is increased car ownership.

Modern housing estates that are built to suit car owners, and are built in such a way that it's difficult to send a regular size bus service through these new estates when roads are only suitable for breadvan style minibuses, plus the fact that most of these estates are one way in and out. Really devlopers should make bus travel attractive by providing a bus road that runs the length of the estate which also prevents the need for the bus having to go back on itself to regain its normal route. It brings the bus closer to the doorstep of those living on the far side of these new estates.

The rise of budget supermarkets. People shoping habits have changed, once upon a time people would look down their noses at you if you shop at Kwik Save or Netto etc. These days, people happily do their weekly shop at Lidl or Aldi, even at a push Herons. They've become so popular that they are popping up everywhere, you cannot go too far without finding one of these, just look at Pelaw, there's a Lidl and an Aldi accross the road from each other. Because they are everywhere, most people don't have to travel as far by bus, some might even walk there on a nice day and get a taxi back once they've got all their shopping in. Even the bigger supermarkets don't do the bus operators any favours by making it harder for bus users to travel to them with a long walk over a windswept car park, and it isn't very appealing having to cross back over the car park back to the bus stop. There used to be a time where buses actually went to the front door of the Hypermarket (now Benton ASDA) and Boldon Asda where people get off the bus and walk straight into the supermarket, and wait in the comfort of the supermarket waiting for the bus home too. Only supermarket that comes to mind where the bus actually drops you off at the store entrance is the Sainsbury's in Whitby (https://flic.kr/p/2mtcqDJ). I'm not sure if the 16 actually goes into the Tesco car park at Consett which the free bus used to (https://flic.kr/p/2kUBV3v), that stopped next to the entrance. Again design the car park where a bus road runs along and stops at the entrance of said supermarket, it's not as if some of these supermarkets are pressed for space. Think the Morrisons at Alnwick is pretty much spot on considering the Bus Station is next to the supermarket. I know some supermarkets do have dedicated bus stops like Morrisons at Jarrow and somewhere in Middlesbrough, but they aren't at the front door to the place. Annoyingly when they built Killingworth bus station, I feel that they put the bus station in the wrong location and should have been placed closer to the entrace to the morrisons along by where Greggs and Ladbrokes are, least it make it more safer for passengers considering the Ladbrokes and Betfred that are there are open to 10pm every night, so if someone felt threatened they could always take refuge next to or in the shop.

The final one is that people are losing confidence in their bus service, with services going missing whether they have been announced or not, doesn't really help people if they had planned a few days before hand to get a certain journey to find the day before it has been cancelled and they have to re-arrange their travel plans.

(27 Jan 2022, 11:48 pm)Ok Rapidsnap wrote The bus network regardless of where you are isn't helped by a number of different factors.

The obvious one is increased car ownership.

Modern housing estates that are built to suit car owners, and are built in such a way that it's difficult to send a regular size bus service through these new estates when roads are only suitable for breadvan style minibuses, plus the fact that most of these estates are one way in and out. Really devlopers should make bus travel attractive by providing a bus road that runs the length of the estate which also prevents the need for the bus having to go back on itself to regain its normal route. It brings the bus closer to the doorstep of those living on the far side of these new estates.

The rise of budget supermarkets. People shoping habits have changed, once upon a time people would look down their noses at you if you shop at Kwik Save or Netto etc. These days, people happily do their weekly shop at Lidl or Aldi, even at a push Herons. They've become so popular that they are popping up everywhere, you cannot go too far without finding one of these, just look at Pelaw, there's a Lidl and an Aldi accross the road from each other. Because they are everywhere, most people don't have to travel as far by bus, some might even walk there on a nice day and get a taxi back once they've got all their shopping in. Even the bigger supermarkets don't do the bus operators any favours by making it harder for bus users to travel to them with a long walk over a windswept car park, and it isn't very appealing having to cross back over the car park back to the bus stop. There used to be a time where buses actually went to the front door of the Hypermarket (now Benton ASDA) and Boldon Asda where people get off the bus and walk straight into the supermarket, and wait in the comfort of the supermarket waiting for the bus home too. Only supermarket that comes to mind where the bus actually drops you off at the store entrance is the Sainsbury's in Whitby (https://flic.kr/p/2mtcqDJ). I'm not sure if the 16 actually goes into the Tesco car park at Consett which the free bus used to (https://flic.kr/p/2kUBV3v), that stopped next to the entrance. Again design the car park where a bus road runs along and stops at the entrance of said supermarket, it's not as if some of these supermarkets are pressed for space. Think the Morrisons at Alnwick is pretty much spot on considering the Bus Station is next to the supermarket. I know some supermarkets do have dedicated bus stops like Morrisons at Jarrow and somewhere in Middlesbrough, but they aren't at the front door to the place. Annoyingly when they built Killingworth bus station, I feel that they put the bus station in the wrong location and should have been placed closer to the entrace to the morrisons along by where Greggs and Ladbrokes are, least it make it more safer for passengers considering the Ladbrokes and Betfred that are there are open to 10pm every night, so if someone felt threatened they could always take refuge next to or in the shop.

The final one is that people are losing confidence in their bus service, with services going missing whether they have been announced or not, doesn't really help people if they had planned a few days before hand to get a certain journey to find the day before it has been cancelled and they have to re-arrange their travel plans.

Asda in Hartlepool does have a stop right outside on Marina Way which is used as the terminus for the Arriva 23/24.  But I can see your wider point as here in Hartlepool despite frequent services the fact most of the fleet is knackered means that breakdowns are common so buses can be missed out meaning the following bus can be quite busy.  The other thing is here is that the town centre is dying and the retail parks are getting more popular but are very much underserved by buses.  Teesbay retail park for instance only has the service 1 every 15 minutes but it stops outside when ideally it should actually go into the car park but because of the new layout it would be difficult to do.  It means having to walk across to the Stagecoach depot and wait for the 1 but then because it only every 15 minutes there is a good chance it will be full especially since every second bus will be coming back from Middlesbrough.  So I can agree with your point that bus operators have to look at modernising the routes.   

To get back on the main topic though Go North East do need to stop with the constant changing.  They had the X6 which was not really giving a chance and axed after a year which opened up new connections especially the Hartlepool section.  They seemed to constantly mess about with the services that came to Hartlepool. The X5 despite been popular axed replaced by the X35 to Sunderland instead which was just a replacement for the 231 which got changed from Newcastle to Sunderland. Which was nothing more than needless competition to Arriva. The X35 then branded fast cats despite taken forever to get there but was left stable for a a good 8 year anyway.  Then the 30 which was supposed to be a fast version of the X35 but again never giving a chance and axed within a year.  Then the X11 that no one used because it was never advertised and very quickly axed after a short while. Then the X35 been renumbered X5 but only lasting a year before been renumbered again to the 55 then been completely axed from Hartlepool. While all this happened the fast cats changed to wear express to not been anything.  Not helped by going from Wright solars to Mercedes to B9 and on a few occasions mini pointer darts appearing on there. So it no wonder they struggle for passengers and profit when they constantly chopping and changing starting services then axing them after a short while.  Same in Peterlee they constantly changing the branding and messing about with services. It gone from Go North East Jayline to East Durham to Indigo to  Peterlee Locals.

(27 Jan 2022, 11:48 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Annoyingly when they built Killingworth bus station, I feel that they put the bus station in the wrong location and should have been placed closer to the entrace to the morrisons along by where Greggs and Ladbrokes are, least it make it more safer for passengers considering the Ladbrokes and Betfred that are there are open to 10pm every night, so if someone felt threatened they could always take refuge next to or in the shop.

It's a interesting point this but there's a reason why it's at the other end and that's to help the shopping centre. The bus station is a flow of passengers for Killingworth so having a car park at one end and the bus station at the opposite end helps creates flows and ultimately improves the shopping centre. If you had everything at the Morrisons end the rest of shopping centre is effectively a dead end so unless you can get shops to flow people down there your in big trouble.

Most places are the same like Eldon Square had it in mind when it was built with the main in street in one corner, the bus station underneath in the centre, a car park at one end (Greenmarket) and another car park at the other corner (John Lewis) with the Metro access at the final corner.

or Washington Galleries where the 2 car parks and the bus station are all opposite corners or Jarrow where the bus station and Metro station is at the other end to the car park.

It might seem an inconvenience to bus users but the supermarket is always going to be want to be near the car park rather than the bus station.

If you don't do that you end up with a Eldon Garden or the old shopping centre in Durham (forgot it's name) where the main anchor pulls out and the place dies a slow death.

(27 Jan 2022, 11:02 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Seems you are thinking of route numbers in Newcastle from way further back than those I was referring to.

The 15 operated from July 1988 (for a long time as 14/15 circulars) under Newcastle Busways, TWOC, Newcastle Busways again, Stagecoach Busways and well into Stagecoach stripes (existing until maybe 5 years ago) though by the end just as the 15.

The 19 I am referring to was introduced in July 1988 as part of the 18/19/20 grouping (now just the 18 remains, and only in part) and existed for decades through the Busways years and well into Stagecoach (19 went in 2006).

In terms of the Sunderland routes, again I was referring to post-dereg numbers from late 80s onwards.  Prior to that believe routes in Sunderland hadn't carried 1 or 2 digit numbers since 1973...

Ah, that'll be it. To pinch a quote from one of this forum's regular contributors, I am "wistfully stuck in the 70s and 80s" when Newcastle Corporation and Tyne and Wear PTE ruled the roads, certainly in my neighbourhood.

My apologies.