Looks like Roger French has been to the region today, only it's left Ray Stenning with a bit of a bitter taste in his mouth: https://twitter.com/creatingdesire/statu...0160567297



I recall reading elsewhere on the forum that Sapphire and Max are being completely phased out, so perhaps that should make them a priority for repaint, to avoid giving anyone a false-sense of being a premium offering.

(05 Feb 2022, 6:14 pm)Adrian wrote Looks like Roger French has been to the region today, only it's left Ray Stenning with a bit of a bitter taste in his mouth: https://twitter.com/creatingdesire/statu...0160567297



I recall reading elsewhere on the forum that Sapphire and Max are being completely phased out, so perhaps that should make them a priority for repaint, to avoid giving anyone a false-sense of being a premium offering.

Ray Stenning should be banned from Twitter (not literally). I respect people can have their own personal opinions but companies should not be attacking their customers like that in public, extremely unprofessional.

If he want's to post opinions like that it should be from a personal Twitter with a disclaimer stating it's his views and not those of Creating Desire.

Well he is the person who is in charge of Creating Desire. If he wants to Create a bad name for his company through Twitter then that's up to him.

(05 Feb 2022, 10:07 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Well he is the person who is in charge of Creating Desire. If he wants to Create a bad name for his company through Twitter then that's up to him.

His designs do that for him. 

I’ve no idea how the bloke keeps getting work. He’s got the dinosaur Go Ahead sycophants French slavering over him at every opportunity and MG at GNE is equally enamoured. God knows why.

I do think given the nature of Arriva and how it's ran locally & nationally as a business, sticking to a single livery is the best way forward.

But.......perhaps they could take a leaf out of First and maybe create something more local. Maybe bring back 'Northumbria' for the Northumbria operations. The hashtags could even be used as part of the livery rather than just plain Northumbria.

#explorenorthumbria
#discovernorthumbria
#getonboardwithnorthumbria
#connectingnorthumbria

Arriva is in a poor state in many areas, but perhaps Best Impressions ought to remember once they’ve sold a design to a client it’s no longer theirs to be angry about.

He does my head in, granted Arriva services don't have much love in them.

(05 Feb 2022, 6:14 pm)Adrian wrote Looks like Roger French has been to the region today, only it's left Ray Stenning with a bit of a bitter taste in his mouth: https://twitter.com/creatingdesire/statu...0160567297

I recall reading elsewhere on the forum that Sapphire and Max are being completely phased out, so perhaps that should make them a priority for repaint, to avoid giving anyone a false-sense of being a premium offering.

Getting back to the original point, as subsequent posts seem to have turned more into a Best Impressions bashing session, it is really quite sad to see Arriva's buses of late. It makes a mockery of their original investment when they don't spend the time to continue upholding the standard once set.

Sapphire made it to their new website, suggesting it's not buried and gone just yet (otherwise why would they keep promoting it?) even if they are actively moving away from it:
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/our-services...e-services

It seems like Arriva North East were the division to adopt Sapphire the most (the X1 is incorrectly listed here, as the buses for this were in MAX specification albeit now unbranded I understand).

I would agree that if they are being phased out then these should be given priority for repaint but, aside from the recent repaints at Darlington, progress with repaints has been incredibly slow. Locally in the North East, Stagecoach adopted a new corporate livery after Arriva, yet the latter seem to have painted far fewer buses into their new scheme. I'm still perplexed as to why Arriva have prioritised the gas buses at Darlington.

When Sapphire was rolled out, in my opinion it was one of the best at the time, such a shame it has lost the ‘sparkle’.

It’s a shame that most of the profits have been sent back to DB motherland of Germany to build and update there transport infrastructure, there uk buses should be taken off them similar to the train’s, the Arriva bus services should be brought back in UK hands


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(06 Feb 2022, 10:42 am)cbma06 wrote It’s a shame that most of the profits have been sent back to DB motherland of Germany to build and update there transport infrastructure, there uk buses should be taken off them similar to the train’s, the Arriva bus services should be brought back in UK hands


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I’d go one step further and return all the bus companies to public ownership

(06 Feb 2022, 9:45 am)Dan wrote Sapphire made it to their new website, suggesting it's not buried and gone just yet (otherwise why would they keep promoting it?) even if they are actively moving away from it:
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/our-services...e-services

It seems like Arriva North East were the division to adopt Sapphire the most (the X1 is incorrectly listed here, as the buses for this were in MAX specification albeit now unbranded I understand).

Website was a rush job where the developers were just told to copy and paste. It shows routes that were taken away from the Sapphire brand long before the site was launched. There's even a page for Max, again, showing routes no longer part of the brand.

Both Max and Sapphire are being axed across the country. The North East as always seems hestitant to do anything to move on.

X1 "became a Sapphire service" when it started interworking with the 1s and 5s I believe. As the Max StreetLites were plug and NSA fitted it didn't make much difference in terms of offering - but as you say, they've been slow on repainting these or anything else.

I think this is one of the few times I don't disagree with him.

I just wonder if they're still doing the no-quibble refund if your journey doesn't 'sparkle'. I think they've removed the cove vinyls mentioning it on the 6

(06 Feb 2022, 9:45 am)Dan wrote Getting back to the original point, as subsequent posts seem to have turned more into a Best Impressions bashing session, it is really quite sad to see Arriva's buses of late. It makes a mockery of their original investment when they don't spend the time to continue upholding the standard once set.

Sapphire made it to their new website, suggesting it's not buried and gone just yet (otherwise why would they keep promoting it?) even if they are actively moving away from it:
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/our-services...e-services

It seems like Arriva North East were the division to adopt Sapphire the most (the X1 is incorrectly listed here, as the buses for this were in MAX specification albeit now unbranded I understand).

I would agree that if they are being phased out then these should be given priority for repaint but, aside from the recent repaints at Darlington, progress with repaints has been incredibly slow. Locally in the North East, Stagecoach adopted a new corporate livery after Arriva, yet the latter seem to have painted far fewer buses into their new scheme. I'm still perplexed as to why Arriva have prioritised the gas buses at Darlington.

I was thinking that. It's coming up 4 years and I'd be very surprised if it's even close to 50% repainted into the new livery. 

I don't disagree with Roger French highlighting it, as to be frank, it looks piss poor and is hardly a welcoming sight for anyone using public transport. This is far from being a Sapphire-only issue, or even an Arriva-only issue for that matter. It's perhaps received more attention because it's being pushed as a premium offering, but I'm sure any of us could use go out and use a couple of buses in the region today, and we'd all find very similar quality issues. 

Some MDs clearly care a lot more about the quality aspect than their counterparts elsewhere do, but that doesn't always translate to the ground.

It doesn't surprise me that Ray, with a very opinionated vision on public transport, is highlighting it either, but I am surprised that he continues to do so through his design agency. It's extremely unprofessional to publicly criticise (even former) customers, and I think it'd be a barrier to other companies choosing to use him, if he wasn't part of the old boys network. 

(06 Feb 2022, 9:52 am)RMF1254 wrote When Sapphire was rolled out, in my opinion it was one of the best at the time, such a shame it has lost the ‘sparkle’.

The early concepts of Sapphire made it a clear premium offering, and I think the seats had a lot to do with it (see this article). By the time it hit the North East, it had already been downgraded to the same spec as other operators were rolling out as standard - plastic ironing board seats, NSAs, WiFi and power sockets.

(06 Feb 2022, 12:39 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I think this is one of the few times I don't disagree with him.

I just wonder if they're still doing the no-quibble refund if your journey doesn't 'sparkle'. I think they've removed the cove vinyls mentioning it on the 6

They never did refund your journey anyway. Your money back was a single journey voucher, rather than legal tender.

not many in the office today as its a Sunday but a quick mention of this to my colleges ( all drive to work btw) is they would rather have the bus turn up looking like those arriva photos than a well presented bus the doesn't!

(06 Feb 2022, 12:57 pm)Rob44 wrote not many in the office today as its a Sunday but a quick mention of this to my colleges ( all drive to work btw) is they would rather have the bus turn up looking like those arriva photos than a well presented bus the doesn't!

Why should the two be mutually exclusive?


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(06 Feb 2022, 12:49 pm)Adrian wrote The early concepts of Sapphire made it a clear premium offering, and I think the seats had a lot to do with it (see this article). By the time it hit the North East, it had already been downgraded to the same spec as other operators were rolling out as standard - plastic ironing board seats, NSAs, WiFi and power sockets.

Those types of seats were only specified by Arriva Buses Wales, the plan was always to use Civic V3 seating elsewhere, with various colours, variations and cushions being trialled across the UK.

Sapphire always seemed to be a "look at us, we're no longer running pov spec crap on these core routes" brand, with a "luxury" tag. As Arriva upgraded their standard specification in 2014 (e-leather), 2015 (3-pin plugs/USB) and 2016 (USB), with the localised options for headrests and next stop announcements, Sapphire really just became a marketing package for what Arriva offered as standard, rather than a true premium service.

(06 Feb 2022, 1:14 pm)Dan wrote Why should the two be mutually exclusive?


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it shouldn't but that what my car driving workmates have said. Im on my own here now so cant ask but assume they've been stung when traveling by bus and it not turning up. Like i've said before us enthusiast see bus travel differently to people who have to use buses to get from a 2 b. that's what they want to get to a 2 b whether is on a 70 plate bus or a 63 plate bus, whether is has NSA or doesn't have NSA whether it has wifi whether it doesn't etc etc

(06 Feb 2022, 1:36 pm)Rob44 wrote it shouldn't but that what my car driving workmates have said. Im on my own here now so cant ask but assume they've been stung when traveling by bus and it not turning up. Like i've said before us enthusiast see bus travel differently to people who have to use buses to get from a 2 b. that's what they want to get to a 2 b whether is on a 70 plate bus or a 63 plate bus, whether is has NSA or doesn't have NSA whether it has wifi whether it doesn't etc etc

I don't understand why the choice offered has to be the least worst option though. Surely that is a factor in deterring people from using (or even trying) public transport?

Perhaps we need to do more to ensure that buses do turn up and they are well presented? There's still too much of an 'any bus is better than no bus' attitude in the industry, but that doesn't mean we should accept poor standards and the perception that public transport is filthy & germ-ridden.

(06 Feb 2022, 1:42 pm)Adrian wrote I don't understand why the choice offered has to be the least worst option though. Surely that is a factor in deterring people from using (or even trying) public transport?

Perhaps we need to do more to ensure that buses do turn up and they are well presented? There's still too much of an 'any bus is better than no bus' attitude in the industry, but that doesn't mean we should accept poor standards and the perception that public transport is filthy & germ-ridden.

in a ideal world that would be great. But surely if you asked a 100 people to name the most important thing to make you travel by bus surely that it turns  up would be up there as the top answer. I cant believe " a table to use my laptop" or " a bus in a unique color for that route " would be up there. Look at orange arrow... he's lost jobs due to buses not arriving and being late. i would think they would have been happy with any bus that turned up on time to get him to work?

Imagine if you are using public transport for a change and the bus doesn't turn up that's going to put you off. But if the bus turns up, but it's a bit old  and a couple of charging points which tbf they probably didn't know were there and a couple of seat where the tape hasn't been fully removed, would that put THEM off using the bus?

If it was a choice between arriving and being well presented surely turning up has to be the choice? And we keep getting told in the current climate ALL bus companies are suffering so maybe ARRIVA see getting the bus to turn up as the priority where as other see panting them in different colors as theirs?

(06 Feb 2022, 9:45 am)Dan wrote I'm still perplexed as to why Arriva have prioritised the gas buses at Darlington.

Arriva seemingly want to be rid of the old 'Eco Green' livery the most right now, Yorkshire & North West are currently in the process of treating their B5LH's so chances are the StreetLite's at Jesmond and 1579/80 at Belmont will likely follow next. The seats in the gas buses also needed some attention as many had come away although with the exception of the ex demos only selected seats on each example have been replaced rather than all of them.

I'm hoping the North East pretty much just abandons the Sapphire livery as much of the buses to that standard just seem to end up everywhere now, Darlington for example now have a booked decker turn on weekdays on both the X27 & 1/5/5A/X1 with 7 branding whilst the 7 gets left with other stuff such as StreetLite's, gas buses and Solo's.

(06 Feb 2022, 1:36 pm)Rob44 wrote it shouldn't but that what my car driving workmates have said. Im on my own here now so cant ask but assume they've been stung when traveling by bus and it not turning up. Like i've said before us enthusiast see bus travel differently to people who have to use buses to get from a 2 b. that's what they want to get to a 2 b whether is on a 70 plate bus or a 63 plate bus, whether is has NSA or doesn't have NSA whether it has wifi whether it doesn't etc etc

I agree that the bus turning up (and on time) is the most important aspect for all passengers.

A sizeable amount of passengers have switched from the car to bus over the past decade through the provision of phone chargers, tables (places to socialise with friends/family on board, or to catch up on work through tablets/laptops). The provision of next stop audio-visual also increases confidence in those unfamiliar with bus travel, or the area, as well as those who are visually impaired or hard-of-hearing. So when a bus turns up that doesn't have these features, it is disappointing or detrimental to people who have switched because they've been offered those services.

In my opinion, from an on-board offering point of view, companies need to focus on getting these basics right first inside the bus, so regardless of what age or colour the bus, you know what you're getting - instead we've ended up with a mish-mash of different coloured buses with different things inside depending on where you live or which direction you're travelling in and it's that consistency, as well as cleanliness, that passengers would actually appreciate. Then when they have that sorted, then they can look into marketing what they have as a whole (and be proud of it) and not just on a route-by-route basis whenever they've painted something or had a handful of new buses.

From talking to those across various departments and companies, more (and a hell of a lot of) time, effort and money needs to be spent on bringing maintenance and punctuality up to standard again. Arriva and Go North East are running their engineering departments on a shoestring budget, whilst all companies are struggling to recognise problem points with punctuality with their services (especially over the last couple of years)... then they point the fingers at ex- and potential customers for holding their ever-deteriorating ingbus service up.


And that's the view of an "enthusiast", who is also an ex-bus commuter and frequent leisure travel customer, who since took the plunge and got a car - where I don't have to worry about the random roulette of having an infotainment system, comfortable seating, air con, USB chargers (or an actual vehicle!) or not.....amongst other problems. But funnily enough, bus companies seem to think they know better than those telling them how they could attract them back, so these points are never really addressed properly (despite the endless surveys from local authorities and Arriva!).

(06 Feb 2022, 1:55 pm)Rob44 wrote in a ideal world that would be great. But surely if you asked a 100 people to name the most important thing to make you travel by bus surely that it turns  up would be up there as the top answer. I cant believe " a table to use my laptop" or " a bus in a unique color for that route " would be up there. Look at orange arrow... he's lost jobs due to buses not arriving and being late. i would think they would have been happy with any bus that turned up on time to get him to work?

Imagine if you are using public transport for a change and the bus doesn't turn up that's going to put you off. But if the bus turns up, but it's a bit old  and a couple of charging points which tbf they probably didn't know were there and a couple of seat where the tape hasn't been fully removed, would that put THEM off using the bus?

If it was a choice between arriving and being well presented surely turning up has to be the choice? And we keep getting told in the current climate ALL bus companies are suffering so maybe ARRIVA see getting the bus to turn up as the priority where as other see panting them in different colors as theirs?

You've changed the scope though. The thread is about maintaining buses and keeping them in a well-presented condition, not about adding tables, charging points or repainting them into all different colours.

Of course people are going to choose the bus that arrives over the one that doesn't, but why does this have to be the choice on offer? Like I said above, why can't we have buses that turn up and buses that are well presented. The two options shouldn't be mutually exclusive. 

Oh and Sapphire had started losing it's sparkle long before the pandemic.

(06 Feb 2022, 2:06 pm)Adrian wrote You've changed the scope though. The thread is about maintaining buses and keeping them in a well-presented condition, not about adding tables, charging points or repainting them into all different colours.

Of course people are going to choose the bus that arrives over the one that doesn't, but why does this have to be the choice on offer? Like I said above, why can't we have buses that turn up and buses that are well presented. The two options shouldn't be mutually exclusive. 

Oh and Sapphire had started losing it's sparkle long before the pandemic.

Because we keep getting told that all the bus companies as skint! Like i say maybe arriva see getting a bus on the road in OK, maybe not ideal condition, to get their customers from a 2 b where other just think oh well cancel that bus?? People will be moan next about the destination screen of a GCT bus not working and just having a bit of paper in the window saying 42a but forgetting at least it arrived to take you to where you want to go.

(06 Feb 2022, 2:12 pm)Rob44 wrote Because we keep getting told that all the bus companies as skint! Like i say maybe arriva see getting a bus on the road in OK, maybe not ideal condition, to get their customers from a 2 b where other just think oh well cancel that bus?? People will be moan next about the destination screen of a GCT bus not working and just having a bit of paper in the window saying 42a but forgetting at least it arrived to take you to where you want to go.

Arriva aren't skint. Their parent company is a state-owned enterprise, and even with that fact aside, the parent company is still extremely healthy financially. Arriva's financial constraints are completely within the group's control, presumably not wishing to pour more money into it whilst trying to sell the division off. There's a big difference between being skint and not willing to invest.

I don't think people would moan about a piece of paper instead of a working destination screen. It's the kind of thing an enthusiast would raise. They are likely to complain about a bus not being clean. You can use the Transport Focus datahub to back that up, as the cleanliness scores (for Arriva) are almost as low as the punctuality scores.



For balance, GNE score 85% and Stagecoach score 80% and the North East average is 82%.

(06 Feb 2022, 2:04 pm)omnicity4659 wrote I agree that the bus turning up (and on time) is the most important aspect for all passengers.

A sizeable amount of passengers have switched from the car to bus over the past decade through the provision of phone chargers, tables (places to socialise with friends/family on board, or to catch up on work through tablets/laptops). The provision of next stop audio-visual also increases confidence in those unfamiliar with bus travel, or the area, as well as those who are visually impaired or hard-of-hearing. So when a bus turns up that doesn't have these features, it is disappointing or detrimental to people who have switched because they've been offered those services.

In my opinion, from an on-board offering point of view, companies need to focus on getting these basics right first inside the bus, so regardless of what age or colour the bus, you know what you're getting - instead we've ended up with a mish-mash of different coloured buses with different things inside depending on where you live or which direction you're travelling in and it's that consistency, as well as cleanliness, that passengers would actually appreciate. Then when they have that sorted, then they can look into marketing what they have as a whole (and be proud of it) and not just on a route-by-route basis whenever they've painted something or had a handful of new buses.

From talking to those across various departments and companies, more (and a hell of a lot of) time, effort and money needs to be spent on bringing maintenance and punctuality up to standard again. Arriva and Go North East are running their engineering departments on a shoestring budget, whilst all companies are struggling to recognise problem points with punctuality with their services (especially over the last couple of years)... then they point the fingers at ex- and potential customers for holding their ever-deteriorating ingbus service up.


And that's the view of an "enthusiast", who is also an ex-bus commuter and frequent leisure travel customer, who since took the plunge and got a car - where I don't have to worry about the random roulette of having an infotainment system, comfortable seating, air con, USB chargers (or an actual vehicle!) or not.....amongst other problems. But funnily enough, bus companies seem to think they know better than those telling them how they could attract them back, so these points are never really addressed properly (despite the endless surveys from local authorities and Arriva!).

Sizable?  Really?   I’m a bus driver, I can count on one hand the amount of passengers who have asked about charging points, never been asked about tables or branding and the only comments I’ve had about NSA have been from regular commuters complaining about them.  

I do, however, get both negative and positive comments about reliability, cost and general cleanliness on a fairly regular basis, which suggests to me what is really important to the travelling public.

I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be charging points or internet connection or NSA. But maybe we need a bit of perspective on where limited budgets are spent

The problem with Sapphire is Arriva just copied Stagecoach with the Gold concept without understanding why Stagecoach were doing it.

Stagecoach did a lot of market research about underdeveloped markets and how to tempt non bus users in those areas.

Arriva just slapped the "Sapphire" logo and retrofited chucky plug sockets on anything with four wheels without actually understanding why they were doing it. It was/is essentially meaninglessness

(06 Feb 2022, 6:15 pm)DeltaMan wrote The problem with Sapphire is Arriva just copied Stagecoach with the Gold concept without understanding why Stagecoach were doing it.

Stagecoach did a lot of market research about underdeveloped markets and how to tempt non bus users in those areas.

Arriva just slapped the "Sapphire" logo and retrofited chucky plug sockets on anything with four wheels without actually understanding why they were doing it. It was/is essentially meaninglessness

But didn't they hire someone to design it all? The same person who likes to create desire.

In which case, it would be interesting to see what involvement they had beyond designing the livery.

(06 Feb 2022, 7:19 pm)Andreos1 wrote But didn't they hire someone to design it all? The same person who likes to create desire.

In which case, it would be interesting to see what involvement they had beyond designing the livery.

You can't polish a turd though