(20 Feb 2014, 8:13 pm)Kuyoyo wrote That's the maximum length I can honestly see them remaining on there - to be quite frank, the minimum time I'm thinking before replacement is 18 months.

I wonder if next years, 2015 orders could see new vehicles brought in for X9/X10 as that could allow the B9's to go off to a less demanding routes.

(20 Feb 2014, 8:06 pm)Kuyoyo wrote To be quite frank, B9TLs aren't truly designed for the demands of the X9/X10 and X15 due to the amount of non-stop running along major trunk roads. As previously discussed, the best vehicles for these routes (and I would also count the X18 in that) are Coaches rather than buses. Astromegas would be far more suited to the X9/X10 plus would last the full 15 years expected of vehicles these days on the routes (6043-8 will need pensioning off in 3-4 years time).

They weren't desinged for non stop trunk road runs but they're doing okay though for a modern bus. They don't breakdown too often. However, you're right in the fact that they weren't designed for trunk road runs. In my opinion, the only two engines that can cope with trunk road and rural runs with an optimum life span of 7 years are the Volvo D10-245 and the DAF/VDL DB250.

(20 Feb 2014, 8:18 pm)Dan wrote Now that's more realistic.
When you consider the recent reliability, things are only going to get worse. It may not be every journey, but it's enough to have been noticed by both the enthusiast scene and customers.

How often in the past have we seen Olympians allocated? How often recently have we seen Highwaymans allocated? I'd say there has been at least three or four days this month alone where a Highwayman has been allocated to the Tyne Tees Xpress...

We've discussed the problems with coaches in the past though. For some (albeit a minority), the Tyne Tees Xpress is a local service. Coaches just aren't convenient for that type of work. The cost of coaches, as well as where they'd end up should the Tyne Tees Xpress ever justify yet another upgrade, is also something that is perhaps off-putting.

It's funny, because the same debate was had on another forum and the end result was that Coaches can be used on local work (look at the Scottish Citylink routes, especially those services into Fort William to Glasgow/Inverness), although I would argue that the X9/X10 aren't strictly local services, more limited stop express. Very similar to Stagecoach Fife's X8/X24/X26/X27 from Fife into Glasgow and X52/X54/X58/X59/X60 into Edinburgh which use Coaches (and trust me, the X54 uses B7R/Profiles and does act in places as a local service).

(20 Feb 2014, 8:18 pm)Dan wrote Now that's more realistic.
When you consider the recent reliability, things are only going to get worse. It may not be every journey, but it's enough to have been noticed by both the enthusiast scene and customers.

How often in the past have we seen Olympians allocated? How often recently have we seen Highwaymans allocated? I'd say there has been at least three or four days this month alone where a Highwayman has been allocated to the Tyne Tees Xpress...

We've discussed the problems with coaches in the past though. For some (albeit a minority), the Tyne Tees Xpress is a local service. Coaches just aren't convenient for that type of work. The cost of coaches, as well as where they'd end up should the Tyne Tees Xpress ever justify yet another upgrade, is also something that is perhaps off-putting.

Maybe a smaller coach such as the Volvo B8R would be a suitable option? Euro 6 spec too. Although only 59 seats as oppose to 71 in a Gemini.

(20 Feb 2014, 8:40 pm)aureolin wrote Maybe a smaller coach such as the Volvo B8R would be a suitable option? Euro 6 spec too. Although only 59 seats as oppose to 71 in a Gemini.

I think it was Rob who mentioned in the past that anything with fewer seats than the current allocation would be unsuitable. At peaks especially, every seat in a B9TL can be filled.

The Astromega looks absolutely beautiful though. I wonder whether or not GNE would want to invest £3 million on six of them though? I'd say that for a 15 year lifespan and a half life refurb, they'd be worth it.

(20 Feb 2014, 8:32 pm)Kuyoyo wrote It's funny, because the same debate was had on another forum and the end result was that Coaches can be used on local work (look at the Scottish Citylink routes, especially those services into Fort William to Glasgow/Inverness), although I would argue that the X9/X10 aren't strictly local services, more limited stop express. Very similar to Stagecoach Fife's X8/X24/X26/X27 from Fife into Glasgow and X52/X54/X58/X59/X60 into Edinburgh which use Coaches (and trust me, the X54 uses B7R/Profiles and does act in places as a local service).

Aren't B7R Profiles step entrance? If so, unsuitable for the Tyne Tees Xpress!

Low floor coaches would be the only suitable replacement for the current allocation, and they're pretty damn expensive. The Tyne Tees Xpress isn't exactly one of the "top dogs" - services like the Angel are at the top of the league.

Given that GNE would struggle to cascade low floor coaches, GNE would have to make sure that the investment cost could be spread out across 15 years on the TTX alone.

(20 Feb 2014, 8:46 pm)Dan wrote Given that GNE would struggle to cascade low floor coaches, GNE would have to make sure that the investment cost could be spread out across 15 years on the TTX alone.

I'm sure the people of Fence Houses would appreciate an upgrade on the 71!

(20 Feb 2014, 8:44 pm)Davey Bowyer wrote The Astromega looks absolutely beautiful though. I wonder whether or not GNE would want to invest £3 million on six of them though? I'd say that for a 15 year lifespan and a half life refurb, they'd be worth it.

I think £3million for 6 standard models is a bit of an overstatement, considering Stagecoach paid £5million for the 10 Gold TDX29 examples. Weardale are reported to have paid £350k for their TDX25, which would put the TDX27s as used on Megabus around the £400-450k mark

(20 Feb 2014, 8:49 pm)BJ10VUS wrote I'm sure the people of Fence Houses would appreciate an upgrade on the 71!

Listen me out here... But if GNE did get a set of Astromegas... Maybe they could cascade down to the South Tyne 5 after a few years???

(20 Feb 2014, 8:32 pm)Kuyoyo wrote It's funny, because the same debate was had on another forum and the end result was that Coaches can be used on local work (look at the Scottish Citylink routes, especially those services into Fort William to Glasgow/Inverness), although I would argue that the X9/X10 aren't strictly local services, more limited stop express. Very similar to Stagecoach Fife's X8/X24/X26/X27 from Fife into Glasgow and X52/X54/X58/X59/X60 into Edinburgh which use Coaches (and trust me, the X54 uses B7R/Profiles and does act in places as a local service).

And what about those who are Disabled and can't manage climbing up a few steps without assistance, I would hardly think that an OAP is going to use the above Services mentioned up in Scotland are they, There going to wait for another Local Service that offers Easy Access or there going to get a Taxi aren't they. Then what about those who have Kids in Pushchaires, do you expect to take a 2 Month Old Baby out of said Pushchair so they can fold it up to get on Board the Coach, I don't, there obviously going to use an Alternative Route to make there Journey.

Lets face facts here, the TTX will never use Coaches, GNE will never buy Coaches, A Low Floor Double Decker is the only Option for this Service, otherwise buy Single Deckers and up the Frequency, which will never happen either unless there is a Demand for it, and of course if it's Commercially Viable for GNE to do so.

And one last thing, you must of inhaled quite a lot of "Smog" over the years Kuyoyo if you even think the TTX is even comparable to the Scottish Citylink Services.

(20 Feb 2014, 8:54 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote And what about those who are Disabled and can't manage climbing up a few steps without assistance, I would hardly think that an OAP is going to use the above Services mentioned up in Scotland are they, There going to wait for another Local Service that offers Easy Access or there going to get a Taxi aren't they. Then what about those who have Kids in Pushchaires, do you expect to take a 2 Month Old Baby out of said Pushchair so they can fold it up to get on Board the Coach, I don't, there obviously going to use an Alternative Route to make there Journey.

Lets face facts here, the TTX will never use Coaches, GNE will never buy Coaches, A Low Floor Double Decker is the only Option for this Service, otherwise buy Single Deckers and up the Frequency, which will never happen either unless there is a Demand for it, and of course if it's Commercially Viable for GNE to do so.

And one last thing, you must of inhaled quite a lot of "Smog" over the years Kuyoyo if you even think the TTX is even comparable to the Scottish Citylink Services.

Citylink services use Easy Access coaches, so why can't the TTX?

Probably worth mentioning that pushchairs have to be folded on X9/X10 journeys anyway, so that takes that argument out, a very minor one admittedly, but worth a shout still.

The main issue here is as stated the cascade requirement. But then they face that with the National Express coaches anyway, in that they have to be removed from the network after 9 years. Admittedly its slightly different in that its a contractual requirement but the investment to vehicle life argument remains the same.

(20 Feb 2014, 9:00 pm)tyresmoke wrote Probably worth mentioning that pushchairs have to be folded on X9/X10 journeys anyway, so that takes that argument out, a very minor one admittedly, but worth a shout still.

The main issue here is as stated the cascade requirement. But then they face that with the National Express coaches anyway, in that they have to be removed from the network after 9 years. Admittedly its slightly different in that its a contractual requirement but the investment to vehicle life argument remains the same.

i was at north shields and 3 pushchairs got off a gemini

(20 Feb 2014, 8:51 pm)Dan wrote Listen me out here... But if GNE did get a set of Astromegas... Maybe they could cascade down to the South Tyne 5 after a few years???

Sounds like a plan! Although I'm not sure the level of luxury would match a Cadet!

(20 Feb 2014, 8:54 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote And what about those who are Disabled and can't manage climbing up a few steps without assistance, I would hardly think that an OAP is going to use the above Services mentioned up in Scotland are they, There going to wait for another Local Service that offers Easy Access or there going to get a Taxi aren't they. Then what about those who have Kids in Pushchaires, do you expect to take a 2 Month Old Baby out of said Pushchair so they can fold it up to get on Board the Coach, I don't, there obviously going to use an Alternative Route to make there Journey.

Lets face facts here, the TTX will never use Coaches, GNE will never buy Coaches, A Low Floor Double Decker is the only Option for this Service, otherwise buy Single Deckers and up the Frequency, which will never happen either unless there is a Demand for it, and of course if it's Commercially Viable for GNE to do so.

And one last thing, you must of inhaled quite a lot of "Smog" over the years Kuyoyo if you even think the TTX is even comparable to the Scottish Citylink Services.

Astromegas are low-floor (throughout the lower decker) coaches, no steps onto the coach (just to reach the top deck). As for pushchairs, considering they have to fold them to board TTX vehicles now, nothing would change.

I think you need to look at the Scottish Citylink network - as it is a mix of local and long-distance coach services. Indeed, some of the service out of Fort William actually work as local services, even stopping on country roads.

Imagine it... A Tyne Tees Xpress branded Astromega appearing on the Highwayman...

In all seriousness, we're still faced with the same issue - where would the cascaded Astromegas go to?

(20 Feb 2014, 9:01 pm)danpick wrote i was at north shields and 3 pushchairs got off a gemini

Because the x9/10 uses the A19 you can't have kids sat in prams or something like that, obviously the Gemini supports prams, it's just to allowed on ttx

(20 Feb 2014, 9:09 pm)Dan wrote Imagine it... A Tyne Tees Xpress branded Astromega appearing on the Highwayman...

In all seriousness, we're still faced with the same issue - where would the cascaded Astromegas go to?

Possibly some new services up the Northumberland Coast?

(20 Feb 2014, 9:16 pm)Tom wrote Possibly some new services up the Northumberland Coast?

GreenLine?

(20 Feb 2014, 9:09 pm)Dan wrote Imagine it... A Tyne Tees Xpress branded Astromega appearing on the Highwayman...

In all seriousness, we're still faced with the same issue - where would the cascaded Astromegas go to?

They would have to spend a decent chunk of their lives on the X9/X10 before being sold off to coach operators who would see a chance of a decent investment for a decent price. Say 10 years or so, with a "mid (GNE) life" refurb after 5 years? This would therefore justify the increased initial outlay...

If the B9TLs are going to be replaced every 3-4 years then you'd end up spending the same initial cost (more or less) over the 10 year period of the service life of Astromegas (as an example) - just without the cascade possibility at the end of said period. Having said that, the last examples of cascades off X9/X10 haven't exactly set the world alight with their reliability have they!

Pretty sure we've had this debate before. I suggested looking at the TTX as an Oxford Tube style service and someone wrote a long winding explanatory post about why it couldn't be

Although similar to Citylink in the context the service links distant towns/cities - the Citylink offer is franchise based, so private operators take the risk as far as purchases go.

It is a totally different market too - people need to use a long distance mode of transport up in Scotland to get to the major towns and cities.
The general population of Cambeltown or Oban need links to the outside world and justify the need for transport.
Any investment, is backed by regular custom.
In the North East, I would say we are a fairly self reliant region.
In Scotland and say the south of England, they think nothing of an hour or two on the train or coach to pop into Edinburgh, Glasgow or London for the day and the loads on public transport justify frequent services, using modern kit.

As much as I would love to see coaches trundling up the A19, I don't think the loads (or regional demographics) would justify the initial outlay or financing - despite the Geminis being unsuitable.

However, if anyone can provide info for the lifespan (and vehicle reliability) for the x62 Hull - Leeds service, I would love to know how it compares to the x9/10.

(20 Feb 2014, 10:14 pm)andreos1 wrote Although similar to Citylink in the context the service links distant towns/cities - the Citylink offer is franchise based, so private operators take the risk as far as purchases go.

It is a totally different market too - people need to use a long distance mode of transport up in Scotland to get to the major towns and cities.
The general population of Cambeltown or Oban need links to the outside world and justify the need for transport.
Any investment, is backed by regular custom.
In the North East, I would say we are a fairly self reliant region.
In Scotland and say the south of England, they think nothing of an hour or two on the train or coach to pop into Edinburgh, Glasgow or London for the day and the loads on public transport justify frequent services, using modern kit.

As much as I would love to see coaches trundling up the A19, I don't think the loads (or regional demographics) would justify the initial outlay or financing - despite the Geminis being unsuitable.

However, if anyone can provide info for the lifespan (and vehicle reliability) for the x62 Hull - Leeds service, I would love to know how it compares to the x9/10.

Well, in the last 3 or 4 years, the X62 has gone from coaches to use ex-Road Car B7TLs which proved unreliable so anything turned up on the work, and since Saturday, the service has increased to 7 return trips Monday-Saturday and 2 on Sundays using 3 54-reg Plaxton Profile-bodied Volvo B7Rs branded for the service.

As for Scottish Citylink, the majority of the network today is operated by either Stagecoach as part of the Megabus/Citylink joint venture, or Parks of Hamilton who operate both Citylink livered coaches as well as coaches in a similar yellow/blue livery but with their own fleetnames.

(20 Feb 2014, 9:09 pm)Dan wrote Imagine it... A Tyne Tees Xpress branded Astromega appearing on the Highwayman...

In all seriousness, we're still faced with the same issue - where would the cascaded Astromegas go to?

The Pronto looks like a good option for cascades from any upgrades to the Tyne Tees Xpress.

And another thing you have to consider is the link between the ttx and the wtx, although that doesn't need coaches it will look a bit odd. The only real way for this to occur is if they are old national express astromega's which i don't think there is! (when the coaches ran on the X9 it was a more comfy ride for me)

Arriva used to (until quite recently) run coaches on the Newcastle-Carlisle 685 route. They stopped because the ageing coaches were becoming increasingly unreliable.
Now they have 'buses' (albeit with leather seats) - but the passengers are unhappy.

As far as coaches and buses are concerned there are (in some cases - subtle) differences, but to me, coaches have plug doors and, usually, high floors, but, specifically are geared for higher cruising speeds (or lower engine noise at cruising speed) and may have more sound insulation.

Nobody would want to travel 300 miles in a Routemaster.

However, what we describe as a 'bus' could be fitted with 'coach' gearing (rear axle ratio or overdrive gearbox) but might need additional low ratios for steep hill gradeability. That shouldn't be a problem nowadays with multi-speed automatic gearboxes. I know that ZF were offering a seven speed wide-ratio Ecomat 7HP600 at least 20 years ago (though it was mainly intended for heavy commercial vehicles).
I don't know what current buses (or coaches) are using.

(20 Feb 2014, 11:13 pm)G-CPTN wrote Arriva used to (until quite recently) run coaches on the Newcastle-Carlisle 685 route. They stopped because the ageing coaches were becoming increasingly unreliable.
Now they have 'buses' (albeit with leather seats) - but the passengers are unhappy.

As far as coaches and buses are concerned there are (in some cases - subtle) differences, but to me, coaches have plug doors and, usually, high floors, but, specifically are geared for higher cruising speeds (or lower engine noise at cruising speed) and may have more sound insulation.

Nobody would want to travel 300 miles in a Routemaster.

However, what we describe as a 'bus' could be fitted with 'coach' gearing (rear axle ratio or overdrive gearbox) but might need additional low ratios for steep hill gradeability. That shouldn't be a problem nowadays with multi-speed automatic gearboxes. I know that ZF were offering a seven speed wide-ratio Ecomat 7HP600 at least 20 years ago (though it was mainly intended for heavy commercial vehicles).
I don't know what current buses (or coaches) are using.

Leading on from that here's my idea for the next Gemini:
- Same body as the Gemini 2
- Same gearbox as mentioned above
- Volvo D10-245 lump in the rear modified to Euro 6

How does that sound?

(20 Feb 2014, 11:13 pm)G-CPTN wrote Arriva used to (until quite recently) run coaches on the Newcastle-Carlisle 685 route. They stopped because the ageing coaches were becoming increasingly unreliable.
Now they have 'buses' (albeit with leather seats) - but the passengers are unhappy.

As far as coaches and buses are concerned there are (in some cases - subtle) differences, but to me, coaches have plug doors and, usually, high floors, but, specifically are geared for higher cruising speeds (or lower engine noise at cruising speed) and may have more sound insulation.

Nobody would want to travel 300 miles in a Routemaster.

However, what we describe as a 'bus' could be fitted with 'coach' gearing (rear axle ratio or overdrive gearbox) but might need additional low ratios for steep hill gradeability. That shouldn't be a problem nowadays with multi-speed automatic gearboxes. I know that ZF were offering a seven speed wide-ratio Ecomat 7HP600 at least 20 years ago (though it was mainly intended for heavy commercial vehicles).
I don't know what current buses (or coaches) are using.

I'm afraid I was always a supporter of the coaches particuarly when the X9 was launched with cascaded Volvo NX coaches it was a fantastic idea which, looked great on paper that we went with however the reality were it was impractical due to the loadings.

I am a great supporter of coaches on express routes such as X9/X10 and then 685. Buses aren't the right choice. When I worked for Ulsterbus all interurban work is provided by coaches at the Volvo b10ms and later Scania coaches.

NX cascaded levanter triaxle version would be perfect as some versions have up to 71 seats and the Scania engines is almost like a bus one so good for pulling away etc..

However there is no way GNE would consider this at the moment that said that in a few years unless they want to constantly buy new buses are going to need to think of something not sure what the right answer is though..

5338 is again on Diamond duties today - same board as yesterday.