Euro 6 Volvo B5LH Specification vs Euro 5 Volvo B9TL

Euro 6 Volvo B5LH
Length 10.5m
Engine Volvo I-Sam parallel hybrid system with the Volvo D5K, 5 Litre Euro 6 with 160 Hp electric motor
Power 240 Hp
Brakes Electronically controlled disc brakes (EBS), Brake Blending Function
Transmission 12 speed I-Shift automatic Transmission
Body Options Wrightbus

Euro 5 B9TL
Engine: Volvo D9B 260 hp (1100 Nm), 310 hp (1400 Nm)
Emissions class: Euro 4/Euro 5 incentive/EEV
Power: 260hp = 1100Nm - 310hp = 1400Nm
Gross vehicle weight (GVW): 19 tonnes (2 axle), 23.3 tonnes (3 axle)
Transmission: ZF and Voith automatic transmissions with integrated retarder.
Suspension: Electronically controlled air suspension with ferry lift and kneeling facility
Braking system: EBS, Disc brakes, ABS
Fuel tanks: 325 or 470 litres

In all honesty I don't think the B5TL/B5LH could cope on the X1 with Various Hill Climbs at for example the Q.E./Washy Highway up to Shiney Row, then up to Newbottle, then from Houghton to Easington Lane, I think it would be a Bad Move from GNE, Plus there is nothing wrong with the B9TL's on the X1. Why can't GNE just invest in New Buses Directly for the X21 instead of giving it Cascades, As they would be simply costing themselves more Money by Repainting the current B9TL's on the X1.

Obviously GNE are going to need to Test a few Demonstrators on the X21 to see what copes with the Service Best, I'm in agreement with Davie that the likes of Wrightbus need to Build a Heavyweight Double Decker which can cope with this sort of Service, Perhaps a Bigger Sized Engine e.g. 12 Litre like some of the National Express/Megabus Coaches have which in turn will produce more Horsepower, and also improve Reliability of Services.

(29 Mar 2014, 8:59 pm)Marcus wrote This is what I think GNE ought to do;

Seeing as 6001-6007 are about two or three years old now, I think they should be given a less major role. You see, although they have a shelf life of 15 or so years, if they are doing a long, demanding route day in day out for the past couple of years, perhaps they should be put onto something less demanding. If they went onto the Prince Bishops, that would be great because although it is one of the companies primary routes, it is not as prominent as the likes of the 21 or 56. If they were replaced by some luxurious head cushioned B5s I will just number 6118-6124, then perhaps one by one 6049-6055 could be debranded and rebranded as the Pronto and sent along to Crook, being replaced by the imaginary 6125-6131.

The reason that the younger ones should go along there instead of their older siblings is because the X21 is, as someone who uses it, (and all of Chester's services) on a regular basis, it needs a good, sturdy vehicle, capable of holding many people, unlike the Presidents who I think have a less seating capacity and rattle like a box of nails after going down the motorway thousands of times, and plus I think with the Pronto, it should be up there with the other major routes as it makes a lot more money than some of the routes that get regular upgrades (eg Crusader) when compared to it, but I don't think they'll get new vehicles because the X1 was the first to get Geminis and will be the first to get a second turn of them if you ask me.

I mean, the way things are being spectulated, I can see something along these lines happening in the coming future, but probably not within a couple of months, and more like sometime toward next year.

Would you not say the 20 is equally as demanding? I'd compare the stretch of the A690 through Houghton cut with old Durham Road for the X1.

(30 Mar 2014, 12:31 am)aureolin wrote Would you not say the 20 is equally as demanding? I'd compare the stretch of the A690 through Houghton cut with old Durham Road for the X1.

I have to agree, the 20 gets decent loaded passengers, however this maybe because of the timing problems... when i was in park lane on Friday, 3 arrived together... 2 number 20's and a 20A.

(29 Mar 2014, 10:49 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote Obviously GNE are going to need to Test a few Demonstrators on the X21 to see what copes with the Service Best, I'm in agreement with Davie that the likes of Wrightbus need to Build a Heavyweight Double Decker which can cope with this sort of Service, Perhaps a Bigger Sized Engine e.g. 12 Litre like some of the National Express/Megabus Coaches have which in turn will produce more Horsepower, and also improve Reliability of Services.

As the chassis makers, it's Volvo that need to be building the bus with the bigger engine. Wrights can only body what they make.

Volvo want to design more fuel efficient buses rather than purposefully built buses; this is universal across all manufacturers, not just Volvo. Kuyoyo said a few weeks ago that it was operators who requested Volvo built their Euro 6 compliant bus with a five litre engine.

Lothian's B5TL trial is currently underway, and I know their demonstrator was running late for the majority of yesterday. It could be argued that the B5TL isn't working quite as well as the B9TL, but operators have been given no choice... The B5TL will be unsuitable for a lot of operators for a number of their services - begs the question why some operators allegedly wanted the five litre engine...!

(30 Mar 2014, 8:55 am)Dan wrote As the chassis makers, it's Volvo that need to be building the bus with the bigger engine. Wrights can only body what they make.

Volvo want to design more fuel efficient buses rather than purposefully built buses; this is universal across all manufacturers, not just Volvo. Kuyoyo said a few weeks ago that it was operators who requested Volvo built their Euro 6 compliant bus with a five litre engine.

Lothian's B5TL trial is currently underway, and I know their demonstrator was running late for the majority of yesterday. It could be argued that the B5TL isn't working quite as well as the B9TL, but operators have been given no choice... The B5TL will be unsuitable for a lot of operators for a number of their services - begs the question why some operators allegedly wanted the five litre engine...!

££££££££££££ and supposedly "cheaper" to run but a load of nonsense though. The recovery firms will have a field day recovering them all!

(30 Mar 2014, 9:19 am)Davey Bowyer wrote ££££££££££££ and supposedly "cheaper" to run but a load of nonsense though. The recovery firms will have a field day recovering them all!

No idea how true it is, but apparently some of the Volvo engines were originally designed by Renault.
If it is the case, then you can possibly see why the newer vehicles with Volvo engines aren't lasting as long or performing as well as the older vehicles were, at a similar age.
Renault + new technology = ?

The best ever Volvo engine was the D10-245.

The B7TL was a massive let down for Volvo but the B9TL has been great for GNE. Put it this way, if GNE can get the same 6 years of service out of 6043 to 6048 on the TTX as what ANE got out of 7453 to 7456 on the 518 and X18 with only the odd occasional breakdown, then they will do well.

(30 Mar 2014, 9:42 am)Davey Bowyer wrote The B7TL was a massive let down for Volvo but the B9TL has been great for GNE. Put it this way, if GNE can get the same 6 years of service out of 6043 to 6048 on the TTX as what ANE got out of 7453 to 7456 on the 518 and X18 with only the odd occasional breakdown, then they will do well.

The fact there are still B10/D10 engines still going strong, despite some being 20odd years old and B7's are struggling, despite being some years younger, says it all...

(30 Mar 2014, 8:45 am)Michael wrote I have to agree, the 20 gets decent loaded passengers, however this maybe because of the timing problems... when i was in park lane on Friday, 3 arrived together... 2 number 20's and a 20A.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. In Durham, say a 20A leaves with a massive amount of passengers then the 20 pulls in literally the moment it pulled out and ends up leaving with about three passengers. I think the timetables should be altered a little.

(30 Mar 2014, 10:47 am)Marcus wrote That's exactly what I was trying to say. In Durham, say a 20A leaves with a massive amount of passengers then the 20 pulls in literally the moment it pulled out and ends up leaving with about three passengers. I think the timetables should be altered a little.

Maybe increase the timings by adding an extra 3-5 mins on, not the best thing to do but it may help

(30 Mar 2014, 10:48 am)Michael wrote Maybe increase the timings by adding an extra 3-5 mins on, not the best thing to do but it may help

I agree, it says every 10 minutes but it seems like every 2 minutes!

Any ideas when Go North East will announce there Fleet Orders for 2014, as I am pretty sure we knew what they were this time last year, reason why ask is because we've known about Stagecoach and Arrivas for a few weeks now so I was thinking they should announce something soon.

(09 Apr 2014, 2:13 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote Any ideas when Go North East will announce there Fleet Orders for 2014, as I am pretty sure we knew what they were this time last year, reason why ask is because we've known about Stagecoach and Arrivas for a few weeks now so I was thinking they should announce something soon.

I don't think Go-Ahead usually reveal such details on the public domain, as Arriva (?) and Stagecoach do - but I could be wrong...

The details of orders for Go North East (and I'd therefore assume other members of the Go-Ahead group too) have not yet been finalised, and won't be for another month or two yet. Although initial discussion on vehicle orders did begin at the end of last year for Go North East, there has been plenty of time for change and indeed there have been significant changes since.

Last year (if memory serves), a Go North East employee took a photograph of the notice board which revealed the details for Go North East's orders that year. If the photograph was released at this point last year, there was still enough time for changes to be made - but it shouldn't have ever hit the public domain anyway. Go North East employees and those with 'insider knowledge' making forum posts on the public domain giving hints as to what these details are is bad enough, but taking a photograph of it...

(09 Apr 2014, 2:27 pm)Dan wrote I don't think Go-Ahead usually reveal such details on the public domain, as Arriva (?) and Stagecoach do - but I could be wrong...

The details of orders for Go North East (and I'd therefore assume other members of the Go-Ahead group too) have not yet been finalised, and won't be for another month or two yet. Although initial discussion on vehicle orders did begin at the end of last year for Go North East, there has been plenty of time for change and indeed there have been significant changes since.

Last year (if memory serves), a Go North East employee took a photograph of the notice board which revealed the details for Go North East's orders that year. If the photograph was released at this point last year, there was still enough time for changes to be made - but it shouldn't have ever hit the public domain anyway. Go North East employees and those with 'insider knowledge' making forum posts on the public domain giving hints as to what these details are is bad enough, but taking a photograph of it...

In regards to the last that's I was relating to, just couldn't remember exactly what it was, I agree it perhaps shouldn't of hit the public domain, obviously I don't know what Go-Ahead's or Go North East's Policies and Procedures are, but that could be classed as Breach of Social Media if they have such a Policy, Which basically why got the Sack from 0800 Repair as Breached that Policy for making a Post on Facebook.

Getting Back to the 2014 Orders hopefully we'll here something soon as I for one am Intrigued to find out what Go North East are going to Order, I suppose it makes sense holding off for a Month or Two, as Optare are due Unveil there New Integral Double Decker, and Alexander Dennis are Rumoured to be Unveiling the New Enviro 400 in May, which is only a few weeks away.

Perhaps Go-Ahead/GNE are waiting to see what these Buses are like before making a Confirmed decision on what Double Deckers, if any they are going to Order This Year, as at the Moment there is only the B5TL/B5LH Available on the Current Market, And You and I both know the problems Lothian have had with the B5TL don't we, on our recent Trips to Edinburgh, So again it would make sense to wait.

As for Single Deckers there is a Wide Range of Choice on the Market including: Wright Pulsar/Eslipse 2 - Wright Streetlite - Mercedes Citaro/Citaro K - Optare Versa - Enviro 200/300 and the Scania i3(Not sure if it's available in the UK though), So possibilities are Endless on what the New Arrivals will, and as you said still plenty of time for change to orders, just at Arriva over past few weeks for that.

(09 Apr 2014, 3:04 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote In regards to the last that's I was relating to, just couldn't remember exactly what it was, I agree it perhaps shouldn't of hit the public domain, obviously I don't know what Go-Ahead's or Go North East's Policies and Procedures are, but that could be classed as Breach of Social Media if they have such a Policy, Which basically why got the Sack from 0800 Repair as Breached that Policy for making a Post on Facebook.

Getting Back to the 2014 Orders hopefully we'll here something soon as I for one am Intrigued to find out what Go North East are going to Order, I suppose it makes sense holding off for a Month or Two, as Optare are due Unveil there New Integral Double Decker, and Alexander Dennis are Rumoured to be Unveiling the New Enviro 400 in May, which is only a few weeks away.

Perhaps Go-Ahead/GNE are waiting to see what these Buses are like before making a Confirmed decision on what Double Deckers, if any they are going to Order This Year, as at the Moment there is only the B5TL/B5LH Available on the Current Market, And You and I both know the problems Lothian have had with the B5TL don't we, on our recent Trips to Edinburgh, So again it would make sense to wait.

As for Single Deckers there is a Wide Range of Choice on the Market including: Wright Pulsar/Eslipse 2 - Wright Streetlite - Mercedes Citaro/Citaro K - Optare Versa - Enviro 200/300 and the Scania i3(Not sure if it's available in the UK though), So possibilities are Endless on what the New Arrivals will, and as you said still plenty of time for change to orders, just at Arriva over past few weeks for that.

I think it's more to do with Go-Ahead's financial year end being at the end of June or beginning of July each year, rather than Go North East and other bus operators held within the Go-Ahead group holding off to see which new buses enter the market.

You are right about there being a lack of suitable double deckers on the market at present, though. Some demonstration vehicles are required to make a fair judgement, and I hope these are unveiled shortly.

(09 Apr 2014, 3:11 pm)Dan wrote I think it's more to do with Go-Ahead's financial year end being at the end of June or beginning of July each year, rather than Go North East and other bus operators held within the Go-Ahead group holding off to see which new buses enter the market.

Dan is right, all Operating Companies have to put in a Corporate Plan around this time for the financial year starting in June. Part of this 'plan' is what each company would like to buy and why (need to put in a business case along with the vehicle order), it then goes to the main Go Ahead board for approval (or not if the case maybe).

Well hopefully if the feedback from the demo runs from various companies proves that a powerful, endurance and heavyweight double deck bus needs to be built with appropriate gearing ratios for longer routes, then Volvo could either redesign the D9B to meet Euro 6 compliance combined with ZF designing a gearbox with tall gearing ratios, or the latter with the B8RLE engine. I sincerely could not imagine a B5TL tearing it down the A19 to Teesside or up through rural Northumberland on the X15 or X18 and even the TEN. Alpha Recovery would have a field day!

Just following on from points made in the QCS and rare/odd workings threads and knowing it is pure guess work on purchases, is it worth loking at the vehicles which are likely to be replaced?

Realistically, anything registered R - Y plate, is going to hit the limit for designed usage as well as the vehicles falling foul of DDA regs.
Obviously some of the vehicles which held reg plates with the prefixes listed above, have gone already.

As well as that, going into 2015, how realistic is it to see the end of the MPD's and anything else which is deemed unreliable?

Will we see direct replacement, or (as seen previously), are we going to see a smaller fleet compared to now?

When will the Nexus Bus fleet need to be replaced?

(13 Apr 2014, 9:22 am)Tom wrote When will the Nexus Bus fleet need to be replaced?

5-7 years time maybe.

(13 Apr 2014, 9:25 am)Michael wrote 5-7 years time maybe.

No, it'll be way before then like. Nexus will want it Euro 6 soon.

(13 Apr 2014, 9:32 am)Tom wrote No, it'll be way before then like. Nexus will want it Euro 6 soon.

Ah ye, Euro 6, not sure when they will replaced, there newish.

(13 Apr 2014, 9:42 am)Michael wrote Ah ye, Euro 6, not sure when they will replaced, there newish.

Not necessarily. Nexus are doing a lot of cost cutting at present so I wouldn't be surprised if they cut their specifications on most routes to Euro3 rather than the Euro4 they seemed to want last year.

(13 Apr 2014, 9:44 am)tyresmoke wrote Not necessarily. Nexus are doing a lot of cost cutting at present so I wouldn't be surprised if they cut their specifications on most routes to Euro3 rather than the Euro4 they seemed to want last year.

and they want to run our buses.. all these cuts!

(13 Apr 2014, 9:47 am)Michael wrote and they want to run our buses.. all these cuts!

To be fair I'd rather them cut the backside stuff like contract specifications than cut services completely. See also the travel shop closures.

I'd say that if the Crusader is going to be upgraded that it could well potenitally be E400's. I know GNE haven't purchased any Alexander Dennis double decks since 2001 but by looking at Volvo's offering at the moment, the E400 looks to be the right choice. They may not be good for any rural, high speed or long distance routes like the X1, TTX and TEN (Full 10 to Hexham); but they'd quite happily cope with the 27. However, if Volvo don't come up with a suitable heavyweight euro 6 chassis, then it could well be that GNE may forgive Scania for the trouble that they created for GNE with regards to the fleet at Stanley Depot depending upon whether or not Scania offer a heavyweight euro 6 chassis on any bodywork (most likely ADL E400) and whether or not the offering is the same or very similar to the euro 5 offering. If the above was to happen, then it could well be that the Red Arrows might receive an upgrade with 6001 to 6007 being the oldest B9TL's in the fleet next year allowing something like the following to happen:

- 6049 to 6051 making up PVR on ANGEL.
- 6052 being fitted with Tacho, power sockets fitted and allocated to TTX to make up PVR.
- 6001 to 6005 and 6053 to 6055 allocated to PRONTO.
- 6006 acting as a spare for the above potential order.
- 6007 relieving 3941 on light duties or a last resort spare for the TEN. 6007 would fitted with a Tacho and act as a spare for the TEN and TTX.

(13 Apr 2014, 10:05 am)tyresmoke wrote To be fair I'd rather them cut the backside stuff like contract specifications than cut services completely. See also the travel shop closures.

Wonder if they could merge most of their contract services together.

Like the 37 and 73?

Sunderland – Castletown - Teal Farm – Concord/Coach Road Estate –Washington - Biddick Woods - Shiney Row - Herrington Burn - East Herrington - Doxford International - Doxford Park - Durham road - Sunderland

Although it will go up to 5 buses PVR at a frequency of every 30 mins and it won't ever happen

(13 Apr 2014, 10:17 am)Davey Bowyer wrote I'd say that if the Crusader is going to be upgraded that it could well potenitally be E400's. I know GNE haven't purchased any Alexander Dennis double decks since 2001 but by looking at Volvo's offering at the moment, the E400 looks to be the right choice. They may not be good for any rural, high speed or long distance routes like the X1, TTX and TEN (Full 10 to Hexham); but they'd quite happily cope with the 27. However, if Volvo don't come up with a suitable heavyweight euro 6 chassis, then it could well be that GNE may forgive Scania for the trouble that they created for GNE with regards to the fleet at Stanley Depot depending upon whether or not Scania offer a heavyweight euro 6 chassis on any bodywork (most likely ADL E400) and whether or not the offering is the same or very similar to the euro 5 offering. If the above was to happen, then it could well be that the Red Arrows might receive an upgrade with 6001 to 6007 being the oldest B9TL's in the fleet next year allowing something like the following to happen:

- 6049 to 6051 making up PVR on ANGEL.
- 6052 being fitted with Tacho, power sockets fitted and allocated to TTX to make up PVR.
- 6001 to 6005 and 6053 to 6055 allocated to PRONTO.
- 6006 acting as a spare for the above potential order.
- 6007 relieving 3941 on light duties or a last resort spare for the TEN. 6007 would fitted with a Tacho and act as a spare for the TEN and TTX.

Would it not be more likely that the Red Arrows would receive 16 new buses (14 branded with 2 red spares) which would displace 6001-6007 around the North East (to act as spares for the other 'older' double-deck services) displacing branded 3941, 3942, 3962, 3963, and 3965, as well as un-branded 3964 and 6038, from their respective depots. (Note: 3943 and a red spare at Washington would additionally be displaced by the 2 new red spares purchased.) Newer double-decks 6049-6055 would then transfer to Crook and branded for and used on service X21 displacing the Presidents which, along with the former branded spares as mentioned above, could result in a large number of elderly double-deckers to be withdrawn from service.

(13 Apr 2014, 10:23 am)peter wrote Would it not be more likely that the Red Arrows would receive 16 new buses (14 branded with 2 red spares) which would displace 6001-6007 around the North East (to act as spares for the other 'older' double-deck services) displacing branded 3941, 3942, 3962, 3963, and 3965, as well as un-branded 3964 and 6038, from their respective depots. (Note: 3943 and a red spare at Washington would additionally be displaced by the 2 new red spares purchased.) Newer double-decks 6049-6055 would then transfer to Crook and branded for and used on service X21 displacing the Presidents which, along with the former branded spares as mentioned above, could result in a large number of elderly double-deckers to be withdrawn from service.

not sure if the X1 would get new buses, although orders can change and new orders haven't being confirmed yet so you never know