With all this X93 talk, I personally think East Yorkshire would be the ideal operator for a competitor to Arriva's X93. Arriva are useless with this route.

Just out of mega mega interest, why is the route number '93'? Is there a main road with the number 93? Or is it historical?

(05 May 2014, 3:21 pm)JoshP wrote With all this X93 talk, I personally think East Yorkshire would be the ideal operator for a competitor to Arriva's X93. Arriva are useless with this route.

Just out of mega mega interest, why is the route number '93'? Is there a main road with the number 93? Or is it historical?

You'd find if there was competition (from East Yorkshire or otherwise), Arriva would sharp buck up their ideas. It's the lack of competition in the North East that lets operators get away with such things.

Love that Josh! Don't think that's ever going to happen as it seems to be down to territories in which the respective companies operate and we are in Arrivaland! The best solution we might have hoped for is that the operation of the route, at present with Arriva Redcar, who manage the out station at Whitby, be moved to Arriva Stockton, who, in my opinion, have a far and away better track record in service
provision.Unfortunately their depot does have the height provision required for the double
deck vehicles needed to cope with the loadings on the route. Given what you say about them being "terrible" on the route I would appreciate anything you have to say about them? Not going to use it in a derogatory way but need to do something? I'm writing to their Area
Manager. Finally with regard to the service
number? Got no idea! Runs most of the way on the A171.

https://www.facebook.com/arrivanortheast...8424846173

I would agree with both Aureolin and Robisdave's most recent comments.

As to why its numbered 93, it was traditionally the 258 and I think 93 was just a random number in the 90s where the Whitby area services are numbered.

Redcar Is just useless. I don't blame the drivers no way, the management just seem to be stuck up their own rear's so much they don't stick to which vehicle belongs on which allocation or what they generally do... I understand Sockton cannot accommodate deckers but It would be good if Top Managers invested in upgrading Stockton depot and take away all services from Redcar.

And that's interesting, I understand Darlington's numbers being like half historic half logical (I.e 1,2,3 woodlands road, 4,5,7,8 North road, 9,10 Haughton Road etc..) but the X93 is just bonkers haha!

If I'm honest I'd rather get the train to Scarborough at great expense than sit on a vomit ridden, stalling double decker on every hill it comes across Arriva bus.

I'm young so I don't know the days of United or Darlington Transport (and other local services) but I've travelled the X93 and it is so bad! But as I said not long ago, and I apologise for my bluntness, I'm sick of talking about it it's just so boring because arriva won't do anything to rescue it!

What G-CTPN says shows the "dark" side of the X93 route and one of a number of issues that Arriva face with its operation, accidents bring another, particularly on the Whitby-Scarborough section, where there is no 'short' diversion route. Our seasonal, and no so seasonal weather adds to the mix also? If it had been raining this morning my guess is 4655 would have coped (no I'm not defending them!). Arriva dug themselves a hole when they closed Loftus as operating out-station some distance from the parent depot just doesn't work, as they are now realising. There are many issues for any operator to face, the prime one of course, making a route pay and even thought loadings today were high I bet it doesn't attract the revenue that Arriva, indeed any operator would like.

Thanks for that Josh, appreciate your bluntness and just thought I'd feedback a little of what I've heard through opening my mouth earlier. Sadly, or not so, I do remember the old days when buses ran to time, always turned up and had drivers that actually smiled ! Alas Arriva arrived!!

(05 May 2014, 5:10 pm)robisdave15 wrote What G-CTPN says shows the "dark" side of the X93 route and one of a number of issues that Arriva face with its operation, accidents bring another, particularly on the Whitby-Scarborough section, where there is no 'short' diversion route. Our seasonal, and no so seasonal weather adds to the mix also? If it had been raining this morning my guess is 4655 would have coped (no I'm not defending them!). Arriva dug themselves a hole when they closed Loftus as operating out-station some distance from the parent depot just doesn't work, as they are now realising. There are many issues for any operator to face, the prime one of course, making a route pay and even thought loadings today were high I bet it doesn't attract the revenue that Arriva, indeed any operator would like.

I'm not defending Arriva either but I do believe that Stagecoach or GNE would cope better but still be terrible, it's a difficult route to operate but Arriva just don't really care in my eyes because as mentioned there is lack of competition.

God forbid the route goes MAX or Sapphire.

(05 May 2014, 5:16 pm)robisdave15 wrote Thanks for that Josh, appreciate your bluntness and just thought I'd feedback a little of what I've heard through opening my mouth earlier. Sadly, or not so, I do remember the old days when buses ran to time, always turned up and had drivers that actually smiled ! Alas Arriva arrived!!

You're welcome (Rob or Dave haha!) on Darlington town services i do commend Arriva because they seem to be quite good on there, and most of the drivers are genuinely nice. But long distance routes, they just fail. Many a time I have traveled the X93 and X1 (Durham/Boro) and I've been very late.

I want to travel to Berwick and back with Arriva but god knows how late I would be arriving in Berwick and Newcastle and eventually getting home. I can imagine the drivers frustration to keeping to a tight schedule on a 4 hour journey each way hence their sometimes bad attitude.

(05 May 2014, 10:11 am)G-CPTN wrote For years, the 685 Newcastle-Carlisle service was run by Arriva under tachographs, then Stagecoach split their 685 route at Brampton and ran without.

Now, Arriva have split the route (at Haydon Bridge) and also run without tachos.

Whilst there is obviously a loophole (and, it can be argued that the differentiation between services requiring tachographs and those not is debatable), I cannot help feeling that changing the route number of a service that is run as a through route with the vehicle (and driver) continuing unbroken (ie no rest break during the journey) is against the spirit of the regulations and, maybe, even, the letter (regular service on route exceeding 50km).

I realise that there is a 5½ hour limit with a break of at least 30 minutes that is, presumably, not infringed, although there is the alternative option of within any period of 8 ½ hours in the working day, total breaks amounting to at least 45 minutes, but these are independent of whether a tachograph is required or not.

It might have been an inconvenience to have to fit and use tachographs, but the regulations are there for a purpose - or am I being naive?

If a route offers through-ticketing and there is no change of vehicle or driver, then changing the route number/destination board is purely cosmetic is it not?

Tacho legislation and drivers hours were introduced for a reason.

If a loophole has been identified and what would be a route using a tacograph is manipulated so that the only thing saved is money, then VOSA need to clamp down on it.

The X93 is one of those routes where the smallest thing can have an impact, example I once went to Scarborough in the car and we got stuck behind a Ford Ka that drove at 30 mph from Whitby to Scarborough and it ended up taking us an hour to get there instead of about 40 minutes.

(05 May 2014, 5:23 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Tacho legislation and drivers hours were introduced for a reason.

If a loophole has been identified and what would be a route using a tacograph is manipulated so that the only thing saved is money, then VOSA need to clamp down on it.

As said Arriva are not the only ones doing it. Stagecoach and Go North East both use this practice, as do operators elsewhere in the country (look at the Dalesbus network for example!).
I'm not sure how much money there is to be saved from not having the tachographs themselves, I've heard around £1000 per vehicle but not sure how true that is?
I guess the real savings to be had are in the rotas, where domestic rules are less restrictive than EU rules in terms of weekly driving hours and rest days.

(05 May 2014, 5:32 pm)tyresmoke wrote As said Arriva are not the only ones doing it. Stagecoach and Go North East both use this practice, as do operators elsewhere in the country (look at the Dalesbus network for example!).
I'm not sure how much money there is to be saved from not having the tachographs themselves, I've heard around £1000 per vehicle but not sure how true that is?
I guess the real savings to be had are in the rotas, where domestic rules are less restrictive than EU rules in terms of weekly driving hours and rest days.

Does this apply to TFL too? Or is that straying into a whole new territory? I can see Arriva and other operators be scheming in London just as well as they are in other parts of the country.

(05 May 2014, 5:23 pm)JoshP wrote You're welcome (Rob or Dave haha!) on Darlington town services i do commend Arriva because they seem to be quite good on there, and most of the drivers are genuinely nice. But long distance routes, they just fail. Many a time I have traveled the X93 and X1 (Durham/Boro) and I've been very late.

I want to travel to Berwick and back with Arriva but god knows how late I would be arriving in Berwick and Newcastle and eventually getting home. I can imagine the drivers frustration to keeping to a tight schedule on a 4 hour journey each way hence their sometimes bad attitude.

At least Ashington usually allocate the correct buses onto the X15

(05 May 2014, 5:39 pm)JoshP wrote Does this apply to TFL too? Or is that straying into a whole new territory? I can see Arriva and other operators be scheming in London just as well as they are in other parts of the country.

The basic designator for buses to be required to fit and use tachographs is a route length of more than 50kms.

Nice to hear something positive for a change... Darlington provided 2 buses on their Dalesbus service this morning from Darlington all the way to Hawes for extra capacity. No doubt they've duplicated the return journey this evening too.

(05 May 2014, 5:56 pm)tyresmoke wrote Nice to hear something positive for a change... Darlington provided 2 buses on their Dalesbus service this morning from Darlington all the way to Hawes for extra capacity. No doubt they've duplicated the return journey this evening too.

Were both using the dedicated Solo's? Darlington seems to be the best depot regarding allocations, followed very closely by Stockton.

Was going to stir the pond on the tacho debate but this thing about the Dalesbus is just so heartening and shows it can be done where there is a will and dare I say incentive? Think I might need to sample Darlos Dalebus?

(05 May 2014, 6:01 pm)JoshP wrote Were both using the dedicated Solo's? Darlington seems to be the best depot regarding allocations, followed very closely by Stockton.

Yes Josh, I'm very keen to find out was was used on the Dalesman...

Gotta suspect it would have to be the Solos as this is a route paid for/supported by NYCC and will require the use of type specific vehicles, similar to when the Moorsbus operated. Also would you like to take a Scania or Pulsar over the Buttertubs Pass?!?

(05 May 2014, 6:19 pm)robisdave15 wrote Gotta suspect it would have to be the Solos as this is a route paid for/supported by NYCC and will require the use of type specific vehicles, similar to when the Moorsbus operated. Also would you like to take a Scania or Pulsar over the Buttertubs Pass?!?

It would be interesting to know how many pax were carried.

Buttertubs Pass.

We drive it regularly and it's stunning as are the diversion routes currently being used into Swaledale with the main valley route being closed. Years ago when United used to operate in Swaledale and Wensleydale the old manual box Bristol LH's used to connect the two dales using Buttertubs! Now that was a ride! As for the passenger loadings today ? It would be interesting to know how many but more so, did somebody know how many?

On returning home from saltburn beach today went via redcar depot.A lonely B7 stood in a row of single buses parked up!
Noticed 3 pulsars on saltburn bank during my stay,1436 was one of them.Passenger numbers seemed very good!
Got me thinking .... it would be interesting to know what are the top proftitable routes from each depot.
At a guess Durham 6,Darlo 7,Stockton 15 & Redcar X4.
Anyone got any other suggestions....

(05 May 2014, 5:32 pm)tyresmoke wrote As said Arriva are not the only ones doing it. Stagecoach and Go North East both use this practice, as do operators elsewhere in the country (look at the Dalesbus network for example!).
I'm not sure how much money there is to be saved from not having the tachographs themselves, I've heard around £1000 per vehicle but not sure how true that is?
I guess the real savings to be had are in the rotas, where domestic rules are less restrictive than EU rules in terms of weekly driving hours and rest days.

Ah yeah, totally appreciate that other operators around the country do it - it doesn't make it right though.
Some clever person has identified the loophole and the system has spread throughout the UK.

I wonder if it is endemic in the coach or even trucking industries too?

Whether it is the savings made by not installing the kit in the vehicles, not having to train staff and apply for the digital cards and/or the rota/staffing issues it can help reduce - money has to be the core reasoning behind the splitting of routes.
I can't think of any other logical reason it could be anything else.

(05 May 2014, 6:58 pm)buznut wrote On returning home from saltburn beach today went via redcar depot.A lonely B7 stood in a row of single buses parked up!
Noticed 3 pulsars on saltburn bank during my stay,1436 was one of them.Passenger numbers seemed very good!
Got me thinking .... it would be interesting to know what are the top proftitable routes from each depot.
At a guess Durham 6,Darlo 7,Stockton 15 & Redcar X4.
Anyone got any other suggestions....

See I would say that Durham, the 64; Darlo the 7 or the popular town services (2,4,9/10,11) were the most profitable. I wonder if any figures actually exist to tell us?

(05 May 2014, 7:38 pm)JoshP wrote See I would say that Durham, the 64; Darlo the 7 or the popular town services (2,4,9/10,11) were the most profitable. I wonder if any figures actually exist to tell us?

The figures will exist, but there's absolutely no way they'd make it into the public domain. It's commercially sensitive and the operators would be extremely reluctant to release it, as a competitor would sharp turn up if they knew how possible route x was.

(05 May 2014, 6:58 pm)buznut wrote On returning home from saltburn beach today went via redcar depot.A lonely B7 stood in a row of single buses parked up!
Noticed 3 pulsars on saltburn bank during my stay,1436 was one of them.Passenger numbers seemed very good!
Got me thinking .... it would be interesting to know what are the top proftitable routes from each depot.
At a guess Durham 6,Darlo 7,Stockton 15 & Redcar X4.
Anyone got any other suggestions....

For Blyth probably 308 or X10/11, Ashington X21 just because of the investment in the routes in the last couple of years and this year

Not going there with the B7 thing? It's being escalated to top management now we'll have to wait and see how things pan out. I don't agree and aren't happy but thankfully don't have to travel the route regularly! Regarding passenger numbers then we're never gonna get to know but then investment in new stock and upgrading of old stock and routes kinda tells you something? The 4/X4 down here appear to be a success story with high loadings. Sadly Arriva Redcar operate it!