(09 Jun 2014, 11:09 am)ifm001 wrote Yes but like all other companies you will find cheap fares in areas of competition. In places where there is minimum competition the fares can and are atrocious. I have no choice but to pay £91.10 each month for a network one as I cannot commit to just one operator but I would love to.
At the end of the day. If a bus company cannot fund a service themselves and an evening service has to be funded by nexus. Then yes any operator is welcome to operate. If your not happy about not being able to use your ticket. Buy a different ticket then.

Why should people have to buy a different ticket?

(09 Jun 2014, 11:09 am)ifm001 wrote Yes but like all other companies you will find cheap fares in areas of competition. In places where there is minimum competition the fares can and are atrocious. I have no choice but to pay £91.10 each month for a network one as I cannot commit to just one operator but I would love to.
At the end of the day. If a bus company cannot fund a service themselves and an evening service has to be funded by nexus. Then yes any operator is welcome to operate. If your not happy about not being able to use your ticket. Buy a different ticket then.

Yes, but in the example given (service 39), the fares are not 'atrocious' in the slightest. I was pointing out that Go North East's entire network cannot be tarred with the same brush of setting unreasonable fare prices etc, when there are some very good deals to be had in some parts of the network - we've discussed service 42 in the past which arguably has less competition yet offers fares which are so competitive that Go North East must make little to no profit from sales of those weekly tickets.

You have no choice but to pay £91.10 each month. I'm not sure of your circumstances, but perhaps if the tendering process was different, you would not have to fork out such a fee. Using service 39 (and other Sunderland services) as an example again, a "Sunderland Saver" is just £11.80 per week. A quick calculation tells me that it would therefore cost £47.20 per month, opposed to the larger fee of £65.80 per month with "The Anytime Ticket" by Network One. Is it really fair that customers are forced to pay £18.60 extra if they want to get home on a night, simply due to the fact the tendering process in Tyne & Wear sees other operators operating services usually operated by Go North East? No it's not!

(09 Jun 2014, 11:15 am)Michael wrote Why should people have to buy a different ticket?

Exactly! They shouldn't have to, but do simply due to the fact Nexus (and other parties) make a saving by offering the tender to the lowest bidder - even though the quality offered during daytime may be superior. Of course, we shouldn't forget the confusion caused by other operators winning tendered services which are commercial throughout the day. I've been on Stagecoach North East's evening 39 service frequently in the past, with the drivers regularly being asked, "Is this the same 39 which runs during the day?" and similar questions.

(09 Jun 2014, 11:37 am)Dan wrote Yes, but in the example given (service 39), the fares are not 'atrocious' in the slightest. I was pointing out that Go North East's entire network cannot be tarred with the same brush of setting unreasonable fare prices etc, when there are some very good deals to be had in some parts of the network - we've discussed service 42 in the past which arguably has less competition yet offers fares which are so competitive that Go North East must make little to no profit from sales of those weekly tickets.

You have no choice but to pay £91.10 each month. I'm not sure of your circumstances, but perhaps if the tendering process was different, you would not have to fork out such a fee. Using service 39 (and other Sunderland services) as an example again, a "Sunderland Saver" is just £11.80 per week. A quick calculation tells me that it would therefore cost £47.20 per month, opposed to the larger fee of £65.80 per month with "The Anytime Ticket" by Network One. Is it really fair that customers are forced to pay £18.60 extra if they want to get home on a night, simply due to the fact the tendering process in Tyne & Wear sees other operators operating services usually operated by Go North East? No it's not!


Exactly! They shouldn't have to, but do simply due to the fact Nexus (and other parties) make a saving by offering the tender to the lowest bidder - even though the quality offered during daytime may be superior. Of course, we shouldn't forget the confusion caused by other operators winning tendered services which are commercial throughout the day. I've been on Stagecoach North East's evening 39 service frequently in the past, with the drivers regularly being asked, "Is this the same 39 which runs during the day?" and similar questions.

Why should Nexus or SNE have to pick up the pieces when GNE decide there isn't enough of a buck in it for them though?

They shouldn't, simple as that.

GNE are the ones who have decided not to run the service. If passengers are being inconvenienced, that is not Nexus or SNE's fault.

For all we know, both Nexus and SNE have approached/discussed the issue of buzzfare ticket acceptance (or vice versa).

Regardless of how the tendering service works, there is the issue of reimbursement, the politics and technicalities that go with it.
SNE accepting GNE tickets, cuts into their margins - unless the cost can be recovered.
To do that, SNE need to provided auditable evidence that a GNE ticket has been presented to Nexus or GNE. How can they do that under the current system?

Of course Nexus, could offer the tender to the daytime operator.
Passengers are less inconvenienced, but taxpayers across Tyne & Wear are penalised as a result.

(09 Jun 2014, 1:50 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Why should Nexus or SNE have to pick up the pieces when GNE decide there isn't enough of a buck in it for them though?

They shouldn't, simple as that.

GNE are the ones who have decided not to run the service. If passengers are being inconvenienced, that is not Nexus or SNE's fault.

For all we know, both Nexus and SNE have approached/discussed the issue of buzzfare ticket acceptance (or vice versa).

Regardless of how the tendering service works, there is the issue of reimbursement, the politics and technicalities that go with it.
SNE accepting GNE tickets, cuts into their margins - unless the cost can be recovered.
To do that, SNE need to provided auditable evidence that a GNE ticket has been presented to Nexus or GNE. How can they do that under the current system?

Of course Nexus, could offer the tender to the daytime operator.
Passengers are less inconvenienced, but taxpayers across Tyne & Wear are penalised as a result.

Maybe they shouldn't, but this happens up and down the country - regardless of what our opinions may be on the matter.

If Stagecoach North East and Go North East have approached Nexus in the past for Go North East tickets to be accepted on the evening variation of the service, I have got nothing to complain about. The fact of the matter is that it does not happen on service 39, but there is evidence of it happening elsewhere in the North East, which would lead to the assumption that the respective operators have not approached Nexus about the matter.
As such, whilst the passenger inconvenience may ultimately be due to Go North East deciding that the service is not commercially viable, Stagecoach North East (or Nexus, if GNE and SNE did approach them about it) are also partly to blame.

Taxpayers are going to be footing the bill in some way or another regardless, so I really don't see why it would be such an issue to provide greater passenger convenience...

(09 Jun 2014, 2:14 pm)Dan wrote Maybe they shouldn't, but this happens up and down the country - regardless of what our opinions may be on the matter.

If Stagecoach North East and Go North East have approached Nexus in the past for Go North East tickets to be accepted on the evening variation of the service, I have got nothing to complain about. The fact of the matter is that it does not happen on service 39, but there is evidence of it happening elsewhere in the North East, which would lead to the assumption that the respective operators have not approached Nexus about the matter.
As such, whilst the passenger inconvenience may ultimately be due to Go North East deciding that the service is not commercially viable, Stagecoach North East (or Nexus, if GNE and SNE did approach them about it) are also partly to blame.

Taxpayers are going to be footing the bill in some way or another regardless, so I really don't see why it would be such an issue to provide greater passenger convenience...

As I say, they may have held discussions at a high level and were unable to provide enough reassurance that audit requirements would be met.
Extrapolation could make the whole thing totally unviable.

If the daytime operator was to put in a bid that resulted in a higher subsidy than a different operator, then I have no argument in what Nexus are doing.

(09 Jun 2014, 7:35 am)ifm001 wrote Is that not the point of the tendering process in the first place.

Don't be blaming nexus and sne for not being able to use passes. Its because gne don't care enough about their own customers and the prices they charge to be anable to put the evening services on commercially

You could argue that Stagecoach don't care about their customers because they don't provide a evening or Sunday service on the 18 or 32 in Newcastle?

(09 Jun 2014, 2:53 pm)Tom wrote You could argue that Stagecoach don't care about their customers because they don't provide a evening or Sunday service on the 18 or 32 in Newcastle?

And the same with Arriva services across the region too.

Allowing services which aren't commercially viable to go to the local council is nothing new and the local councils aren't forced to subsidise them either. If they deem it necessary for the public, then they are likely to put the service up for tender. The means by which they do this can cause debate, as many of these parties choose not to take into account the quality of the service that can be provided by an operator who has put in a really low bid, nor do they take into account the confusion/inconvenience that may be caused by an alternative operator stepping in.

I'm not saying that just because any company doesn't offer an evening or Sunday service. Ane. Gne or Sne is the reason the fares are atrocious. What I'm saying is if your ticket isn't valid on other operators then buy a different one.

I live in south shileds. My main operator is stagecoach. I work in metrocentre main operator is go north east. I work shift pattersn so have to use metro. Total monthly cost is £91.10. For network one. I would love to pay half that cost but is not available. So instead of moaning about it I pay it each month

(09 Jun 2014, 3:34 pm)ifm001 wrote I'm not saying that just because any company doesn't offer an evening or Sunday service. Ane. Gne or Sne is the reason the fares are atrocious. What I'm saying is if your ticket isn't valid on other operators then buy a different one.

I live in south shileds. My main operator is stagecoach. I work in metrocentre main operator is go north east. I work shift pattersn so have to use metro. Total monthly cost is £91.10. For network one. I would love to pay half that cost but is not available. So instead of moaning about it I pay it each month

I think your situation is a little different, if I'm honest.

Imagine you had a direct service from your house in South Shields to the Metrocentre, which, during the day, was operated by Stagecoach North East. You are able to buy a monthly ticket for use on this service and other local services in South Shields, and it costs £50.

Now imagine that, after 19:00, Stagecoach North East no longer operate this service and Arriva North East do instead. As you work shift patterns, you're forced to use this service (or alternative means of travel), which means that you're no longer entitled to use your £50 monthly ticket. You have to use a more expensive ticket instead.

Would you not be a little irritated? Annoyed, perhaps? Especially if the situation could have been avoided by Nexus tendering the service to Stagecoach rather than Arriva?

You hit the nail on the head. The word imagine. As we don't have services to the metrocentre there is no point in using that as an example. Whereas take. Services 3. 4 and 5. Stagecoach and go north east. Both operate all day every day between south shields and the area I live. You can choose eithr stagecoach pass or go north east pass. But if you want to use both you have to buy differnet.
If the services which are operated by alternative operators. On evenings and sundays changed there numbers so they weren't the same service. Ie the 39 became the 139 would you still complain

(09 Jun 2014, 4:18 pm)ifm001 wrote You hit the nail on the head. The word imagine. As we don't have services to the metrocentre there is no point in using that as an example. Whereas take. Services 3. 4 and 5. Stagecoach and go north east. Both operate all day every day between south shields and the area I live. You can choose eithr stagecoach pass or go north east pass. But if you want to use both you have to buy differnet.
If the services which are operated by alternative operators. On evenmings and sundays changed there bnumbers so they weren't the same service. Ie the 39 became the 139 would you still complain

Yes - I am having to say 'imagine', because you couldn't not relate otherwise.

Services 3, 4 and 5 are all (mostly) commercial and remain operated by their respective companies regardless of the time of day.
On the other hand, service 39 isn't. It is commercial and operated by Go North East during the day, but on an evening/night, it's secured and tendered to Stagecoach North East.

There are some parts of the 39's route which is only served by that service, and as such, most fare paying passengers would opt for a Sunderland WeeklySaver to save money. However, if they happen to be travelling after a certain time on an evening, they can't use their Sunderland WeeklySavers due to the fact Stagecoach North East operate the same service, but on a tendered basis.

This ruins their travelling arrangements and possibly inflicts a greater cost on the passenger just so they can get home on an evening. Let's not forget that, as a result of this, Go North East see fewer Sunderland WeeklySaver sales and passengers opt for the more expensive Network One ticket - because they've got no choice.

As I said before, it is ultimately Go North East's fault because they decided the service was not commercially viable to operate on evenings (which I can vouch for - although there used to be full buses during the day - after 8, it completely dies). However, SNE/Nexus hasn't thought of the passenger in the sense that they cannot use their GNE tickets on board service 39.

As much as some people may beg to differ, there's more than one party to blame in this instance...

(09 Jun 2014, 7:35 am)ifm001 wrote Is that not the point of the tendering process in the first place.

Don't be blaming nexus and sne for not being able to use passes. Its because gne don't care enough about their own customers and the prices they charge to be anable to put the evening services on commercially

Well said!

(09 Jun 2014, 5:24 pm)Roland Pratt wrote Well said!

Thought we'd already established that Go North East's fares on the service in question are very cheap and operators up and down the country (Arriva North East and Stagecoach North East included) all pass the services onto the local councils/PTEs when they're not commercially viable (i.e. this implies no operators care about their customers)? Still well said, or have I missed something?

(09 Jun 2014, 5:26 pm)Dan wrote Thought we'd already established that Go North East's fares on the service in question are very cheap and operators up and down the country (Arriva North East and Stagecoach North East included) all pass the services onto the local councils/PTEs when they're not commercially viable (i.e. this implies no operators care about their customers)? Still well said, or have I missed something?

Yes it applies to all the operators not GNE in particular. Maybe there should be a rule that any operator running a daytime of a certain frequency should have to operate a similar evening service of a given frequency?

(09 Jun 2014, 5:31 pm)Roland Pratt wrote Yes it applies to all the operators not GNE in particular. Maybe there should be a rule that any operator running a daytime of a certain frequency should have to operate a similar evening service of a given frequency?

As long as customers don't care about getting jazzy new buses with Wi-Fi and power sockets, I'm sure that could be achieved?

The company has got to make a profit to justify these new vehicles before that can happen. Re-investment back into the company also shows care for customers too, if you ask me... But hey ho, I expect others will disagree.

At the end of a day, tendered services will not change. Operators do run services which are ran at a lost on an evening, but it is not a blank cheque and decisions have to be made as to which ones to operate and which ones do not.

If the local authority (or Nexus) decide that a service of some description needs to operate, then they can put out a tender and let the best man win.

Are some people suggesting just because a service operates during the day, it has to operate on a evening when passenger numbers are greatly reduced and the bus is running around empty and then that is more FDR for the company to claim.....heaven forbid eh!!

(09 Jun 2014, 5:33 pm)Dan wrote As long as customers don't care about getting jazzy new buses with Wi-Fi and power sockets, I'm sure that could be achieved?

The company has got to make a profit to justify these new vehicles before that can happen. Re-investment back into the company also shows care for customers too, if you ask me... But hey ho, I expect others will disagree.

I won't get into the whole secured service provision debate, as it's been done to death in the QCS thread, and I reckon I've made my own views pretty clear.

On the investment debate that often crops up though. They'd have to replace the buses sooner or later anyway. If you don't replace depreciated assets (which tend to be financially accounted for in the books) then you'll eventually have no business to run. Sainsburys for example will do the same with refrigeration units, only they don't try and sell it as a perk to their customers.

Whether I agree or not that's the reality of it.

(09 Jun 2014, 9:00 pm)aureolin wrote I won't get into the whole secured service provision debate, as it's been done to death in the QCS thread, and I reckon I've made my own views pretty clear.

On the investment debate that often crops up though. They'd have to replace the buses sooner or later anyway. If you don't replace depreciated assets (which tend to be financially accounted for in the books) then you'll eventually have no business to run. Sainsburys for example will do the same with refrigeration units, only they don't try and sell it as a perk to their customers.

Whether I agree or not that's the reality of it.

Operators can sell it as a perk, because it can be a perk.

Think of your light-weight Optare Versa. Does the job but it's quite cheap (in terms of price and the quality) - usually purchased simply because other assets need to be replaced.

Now think of your heavy-weight Wi-Fi enabled (nobody is allowed to use this as an opportunity to complain about Wi-Fi ) Mercedes Citaro. Has a good ride quality and the price is considerably higher for the company.

I rest my case.

22214 on service 4 whilst an unidentified 59-reg ADL E200 is on service 12 in Sunderland today.

(10 Jun 2014, 5:09 am)Dan wrote Operators can sell it as a perk, because it can be a perk.

Think of your light-weight Optare Versa. Does the job but it's quite cheap (in terms of price and the quality) - usually purchased simply because other assets need to be replaced.

Now think of your heavy-weight Wi-Fi enabled (nobody is allowed to use this as an opportunity to complain about Wi-Fi ) Mercedes Citaro. Has a good ride quality and the price is considerably higher for the company.

I rest my case.

It can be a perk yes, but anything can be a perk with the correct spin on it.

Not denying that a Citaro is more luxurious than a Versa, or that it's a bigger investment, but we (as in enthusiasts) aren't the ones needing to be convinced here.

Convincing your average Joe public that a bus is anything other than a bus is another challenge. People recognise a mini bus, a bus, and a double decker. They don't recognise a Citaro is a Citaro, or a Solar is a Solar.

Same with trains though isn't it? How many folk that use East Coast would recognise that it's a HST or 91 that's pulled in?

(10 Jun 2014, 11:38 am)aureolin wrote It can be a perk yes, but anything can be a perk with the correct spin on it.

Not denying that a Citaro is more luxurious than a Versa, or that it's a bigger investment, but we (as in enthusiasts) aren't the ones needing to be convinced here.

Convincing your average Joe public that a bus is anything other than a bus is another challenge. People recognise a mini bus, a bus, and a double decker. They don't recognise a Citaro is a Citaro, or a Solar is a Solar.

Same with trains though isn't it? How many folk that use East Coast would recognise that it's a HST or 91 that's pulled in?

I remember on the first day of the Citaros being launched on the Wear Tees Xpress, members of the public commented that it was a 'posh bus' compared to the former allocation...

Same happened with the Venture Solos.

Any member of the public regards a bus with Wi-Fi as a new bus too, from what I have noticed.

(10 Jun 2014, 11:41 am)Dan wrote I remember on the first day of the Citaros being launched on the Wear Tees Xpress, members of the public commented that it was a 'posh bus' compared to the former allocation...

Same happened with the Venture Solos.

Any member of the public regards a bus with Wi-Fi as a new bus too, from what I have noticed.

But - a posh new bus. Not a posh new Mercedes Citaro. People probably said similar about the Solos when the dreaded Metroriders were phased out of Washington.

I do agree with the WiFi point though, as I can understand that perception with what's new technology for our buses (when it's working )

(09 Jun 2014, 5:46 pm)citaro5284 wrote At the end of a day, tendered services will not change. Operators do run services which are ran at a lost on an evening, but it is not a blank cheque and decisions have to be made as to which ones to operate and which ones do not.

If the local authority (or Nexus) decide that a service of some description needs to operate, then they can put out a tender and let the best man win.

Are some people suggesting just because a service operates during the day, it has to operate on a evening when passenger numbers are greatly reduced and the bus is running around empty and then that is more FDR for the company to claim.....heaven forbid eh!!

As will happen during the day on certain runs.
They aren't axed, nor do the operators run to Nexus, with their begging bowl, asking for support.

(10 Jun 2014, 11:46 am)aureolin wrote But - a posh new bus. Not a posh new Mercedes Citaro. People probably said similar about the Solos when the dreaded Metroriders were phased out of Washington.

I do agree with the WiFi point though, as I can understand that perception with what's new technology for our buses (when it's working )

Of course they won't know the model of the bus, but they will be able to differentiate between a heavy weight bus and a light weight bus on the simple basis of one being more comfortable and having less rattles - their passenger experience is massively enhanced by having heavy weight vehicles.

Although I don't think passengers will be able to recognise a bus as a Mercedes, Go North East and other operators have marketed bus services in the past by including 'Take the Mercedes' and such, as Mercedes is obviously somewhat iconic for being a more upmarket brand, as well as providing superior quality and comfort to other manufacturers.

(10 Jun 2014, 12:47 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote As will happen during the day on certain runs.
They aren't axed, nor do the operators run to Nexus, with their begging bowl, asking for support.

Because they make the profit back later in the day (perhaps even on the return journey). For example, I know that a number of the X85s run with very few passengers (and as such will probably make a loss), but their return journeys in the opposite direction carry more than sufficient passengers to break-even and in most cases, make a profit.

This can only be done to a certain point, and this is when operators withdraw certain runs as they're not commercially viable.

Surprised you resisted the urge to reply about the Fuel Duty Rebate as mentioned in citaro5284's post! Haha!

(10 Jun 2014, 2:02 pm)Dan wrote Of course they won't know the model of the bus, but they will be able to differentiate between a heavy weight bus and a light weight bus on the simple basis of one being more comfortable and having less rattles - their passenger experience is massively enhanced by having heavy weight vehicles.

Although I don't think passengers will be able to recognise a bus as a Mercedes, Go North East and other operators have marketed bus services in the past by including 'Take the Mercedes' and such, as Mercedes is obviously somewhat iconic for being a more upmarket brand, as well as providing superior quality and comfort to other manufacturers.

I disagree. Like I've said I'm not disputing the investment, cost, etc, but the only thing your average customer is going to differentiate between buses is the length and height of the bus. Comparing say a Citaro and full size Versa, and you'll get the same answer - they're two buses. More recently though, I admit people tend to refer to brands or colours...

The take the Merc tagline is a good example, and is exactly the point I was making about anything being a perk if the correct spin is put on it. If the same bus was designed and engined by Scania to the same design and specification, you wouldn't see that played upon, as there's little recognition outside the commercial vehicle world. You wouldn't put "take the volvo" for the B9TL's either, seeing as they have a reputation of being an old man's estate car, with plenty of room for golf clubs and dogs in the boot.

(10 Jun 2014, 2:36 pm)aureolin wrote I disagree. Like I've said I'm not disputing the investment, cost, etc, but the only thing your average customer is going to differentiate between buses is the length and height of the bus. Comparing say a Citaro and full size Versa, and you'll get the same answer - they're two buses. More recently though, I admit people tend to refer to brands or colours...

The take the Merc tagline is a good example, and is exactly the point I was making about anything being a perk if the correct spin is put on it. If the same bus was designed and engined by Scania to the same design and specification, you wouldn't see that played upon, as there's little recognition outside the commercial vehicle world. You wouldn't put "take the volvo" for the B9TL's either, seeing as they have a reputation of being an old man's estate car, with plenty of room for golf clubs and dogs in the boot.

I don't really understand why Go North East would pay anywhere between £40k-£80k extra for heavy weight vehicles if they didn't think customers would benefit from a better experience with them, and acknowledge that fact too?

The "Connections 4" would have coped with full length Versas, so why did Go North East opt for Mercedes Citaros? The Mercs are built to last, and customers will experience a much higher level of comfort on a Merc than a Versa.

I've said this at least three times in the past - my mam knew that when a "Northern" branded vehicle was approaching, it was going to be one hell of a rattley bus (SPD), and she'd have to put her earphones in for the journey to make it more bearable. She doesn't have to do that on a Merc. She has absolutely no knowledge of buses whatsoever, but she knew that red buses turning up in place of a silver one on the Silver Arrows meant that it would have been a bad journey if she didn't have her earphones! Might I add this also links in with Go North East ditching the Northern name and investing in more 'red spares' - to change the public perception of red spares turning up in place of branded vehicle?

(10 Jun 2014, 2:44 pm)Dan wrote I don't really understand why Go North East would pay anywhere between £40k-£80k extra for heavy weight vehicles if they didn't think customers would benefit from a better experience with them, and acknowledge that fact too?

The "Connections 4" would have coped with full length Versas, so why did Go North East opt for Mercedes Citaros? The Mercs are built to last, and customers will experience a much higher level of comfort on a Merc than a Versa.

I've said this at least three times in the past - my mam knew that when a "Northern" branded vehicle was approaching, it was going to be one hell of a rattley bus (SPD), and she'd have to put her earphones in for the journey to make it more bearable. She doesn't have to do that on a Merc. She has absolutely no knowledge of buses whatsoever, but she knew that red buses turning up in place of a silver one on the Silver Arrows meant that it would have been a bad journey if she didn't have her earphones! Might I add this also links in with Go North East ditching the Northern name and investing in more 'red spares' - to change the public perception of red spares turning up in place of branded vehicle?

I'd hope we can at least mutually agree that we're either missing or misunderstanding each others points entirely.

(10 Jun 2014, 3:22 pm)aureolin wrote I'd hope we can at least mutually agree that we're either missing or misunderstanding each others points entirely.

I think we both understand each other, just clearly disagree with one another - so yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

I thought the cowboys had their own section and not on a Stagecoach NE thread?

(10 Jun 2014, 2:02 pm)Dan wrote Of course they won't know the model of the bus, but they will be able to differentiate between a heavy weight bus and a light weight bus on the simple basis of one being more comfortable and having less rattles - their passenger experience is massively enhanced by having heavy weight vehicles.

Although I don't think passengers will be able to recognise a bus as a Mercedes, Go North East and other operators have marketed bus services in the past by including 'Take the Mercedes' and such, as Mercedes is obviously somewhat iconic for being a more upmarket brand, as well as providing superior quality and comfort to other manufacturers.


Because they make the profit back later in the day (perhaps even on the return journey). For example, I know that a number of the X85s run with very few passengers (and as such will probably make a loss), but their return journeys in the opposite direction carry more than sufficient passengers to break-even and in most cases, make a profit.

This can only be done to a certain point, and this is when operators withdraw certain runs as they're not commercially viable.

Surprised you resisted the urge to reply about the Fuel Duty Rebate as mentioned in citaro5284's post! Haha!

So the are operator is self subsidising quiet runs, with takings from busier ones?
Exactly the sort of the thing they can do on some services they decide to have nowt to do with on an evening or night.
Unless of course, the margin percentages aren't good enough, they can reduce costs or they don't have the staff to drive the vehicles?

Appreciate we are in an SNE thread, but seeing as others have brought GNE up...

The 4 makes GNE money.
More than enough money to justify a 10min frequency, using the expensive vehicles you mention (smooth journey, wasted on uncomfortable seats, driven extremely fast by the drivers*) - of which a handful run off/onto the profitable 922.
Yet despite all of that, GNE don't/won't/can't afford to run the service through the evening (an extra 3hrs).
The same can be said for the x1, which has also seen reductions on an evening.

Going back to the 4, Nexus refused to be held to ransom (just as they did with the 493 a few years back) and subsidise an evening service extension from Fallowfield Way to Houghton, but did extend the 79 to a certain village not too far from Houghton.
The section of the 4, which does still run on an evening, tends to carry very few passengers (as it has done historically). With the amount of passes it takes and lack of bums on seats, it can't make a profit at all. If it does, it will be negligible.
Coincidentally, Fallowfield Way, fits in just nice as a terminus, with minimal layover time before the return journey. Houghton doesn't...

*the words of Ma Constantopolous