Yellow unbranded MPD working the 60. Just left Seaham now.

This may be worth sticking in Management and Infrastructure, so if you want to move it, feel free.

I have often thought about this and haven't had a good way of explaining it, so hopefully it will make sense.

GNE often pump prime certain route corridors with one or two services. As well as this, they introduce less frequent services, which in several instances are then withdrawn after a short period of time, due to a lack of customers.
Using basic maths and one or two corridors, I am unsure as to why the less frequent routes would ever attract passengers.

THE ROUTE FROM PARK LANE TO FULWELL MILL I.E NEWCASTLE ROAD
On this stretch of road, you have the X3, 9 and 35/35a. Using basic ratio, the services are: 2 : 2 : 6 ph. Excluding passengers traveling beyond Park Lane or Fulwell Mill, the probability of getting anything other than the 35/35a is very low. Even with the X3 and 9 evenly spread out over that 15 min period upto 2 35s can take these passengers. When you factor in the metro to Seaburn the ratio is then 2 : 2 : 6 : 5 ph.
Yet GNE seem surprised when passenger numbers are low on the X3.

THE ROUTE FROM PARK LANE TO GRANGETOWN/RYHOPE
On this stretch of road, there are the 38, 39, 42, 60, 61, 238 and X7. Again, using basic ratio, the services are: 2 : 3 : 6 : 6 : 6 : 1 : 1 ph.
These services have just been changed/adapted, but it doesn't take a genius to work out which will be the most popular, which ones will vanish without a whimper, or if you turn up at a bus stop which services will turn up 1st and I haven't even looked at the Stagecoach or Arriva services which can get you to Grangetown or Ryhope.

If apply this same method to other areas, looking at services which were quietly stopped, it is pretty obvious why they were stopped and why certain routes don't make money.
Durham Road in Sunderland with the 20s, 35s and X35 opposed to the 71?

There will be plenty of other examples too between towns, villages and/or cities.

One other point to make about in frequent services compared to infrequent ones.
Imagine you are in Seaham with a red zone ticket and have just missed the 238 to Houghton, so you have a choice of waiting another 60 minutes for the next one or jumping on a super frequent bus to Sunderland and change, knowing you will be home before the next 238 gets anywhere near Seaham...

Having such a mixed network of frequent and infrequent services is going to cause these continual changes and unless something major happens, we as passengers will continue to see change after change after change on the services.

East Durham 535 on 2A/C.

"East Durham" 535 on "Silver Arrows" service 2C. (danielgrahamm)

(01 May 2013, 3:04 pm)Andreos1 wrote This may be worth sticking in Management and Infrastructure, so if you want to move it, feel free.

I have often thought about this and haven't had a good way of explaining it, so hopefully it will make sense.

GNE often pump prime certain route corridors with one or two services. As well as this, they introduce less frequent services, which in several instances are then withdrawn after a short period of time, due to a lack of customers.
Using basic maths and one or two corridors, I am unsure as to why the less frequent routes would ever attract passengers.

THE ROUTE FROM PARK LANE TO FULWELL MILL I.E NEWCASTLE ROAD
On this stretch of road, you have the X3, 9 and 35/35a. Using basic ratio, the services are: 2 : 2 : 6 ph. Excluding passengers traveling beyond Park Lane or Fulwell Mill, the probability of getting anything other than the 35/35a is very low. Even with the X3 and 9 evenly spread out over that 15 min period upto 2 35s can take these passengers. When you factor in the metro to Seaburn the ratio is then 2 : 2 : 6 : 5 ph.
Yet GNE seem surprised when passenger numbers are low on the X3.

THE ROUTE FROM PARK LANE TO GRANGETOWN/RYHOPE
On this stretch of road, there are the 38, 39, 42, 60, 61, 238 and X7. Again, using basic ratio, the services are: 2 : 3 : 6 : 6 : 6 : 1 : 1 ph.
These services have just been changed/adapted, but it doesn't take a genius to work out which will be the most popular, which ones will vanish without a whimper, or if you turn up at a bus stop which services will turn up 1st and I haven't even looked at the Stagecoach or Arriva services which can get you to Grangetown or Ryhope.

If apply this same method to other areas, looking at services which were quietly stopped, it is pretty obvious why they were stopped and why certain routes don't make money.
Durham Road in Sunderland with the 20s, 35s and X35 opposed to the 71?

There will be plenty of other examples too between towns, villages and/or cities.

One other point to make about in frequent services compared to infrequent ones.
Imagine you are in Seaham with a red zone ticket and have just missed the 238 to Houghton, so you have a choice of waiting another 60 minutes for the next one or jumping on a super frequent bus to Sunderland and change, knowing you will be home before the next 238 gets anywhere near Seaham...

Having such a mixed network of frequent and infrequent services is going to cause these continual changes and unless something major happens, we as passengers will continue to see change after change after change on the services.

Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make there.

Most bus operators of GNE’s size use a route costing system. ‘New’ routes are evaluated through the system and if they can break even/make a contribution within a reasonable period of time, they will be started. If they then fail to achieve their contribution, they will be withdrawn. Similarly, existing routes have to make a positive contribution and if they don’t, they need to be amended until they do. And again, investment in new buses affects the costing system – new buses have to be paid for!

The costing system makes it easier to justify mid-life buses for ‘new’ routes, because the commercial risk of ‘new’ buses on ‘new’ routes would be hard to justify.

It’s easier to justify new/more buses where there’s lots of passengers. Similarly, the costing system provides a justification for removing unremunerative routes, or the odd journey here and there.

So, as enthusiasts, where does that leave us? Well, perhaps we should wish any operator who tries a new service all the very best of luck, and do our best to support them. As vehicle spotters, we can guess that new buses will continue to go onto routes that can financially support them, allowing the cascade of mid-life buses to other areas (I’d guess that it won’t be too long before Versas from inner-city routes get cascaded to the likes of Consett, Hexham and Peterlee, for example, where the cost of brand-new buses is unlikely to be justified.) It doesn’t take a genius to be able to look down the GNE fleet list and work out what’s going to be next out of the fleet, does it?

I'm trying to say that for all these new services, if you run them alongside an existing service which is more frequent, then they will not work.
GNE have stated that the service isn't covering fuel or wages and I think this is the reason why.

Take Newcastle Road as an example. Using round numbers for ease, 20 passengers ph will travel between Park Lane and Fulwell Mill using an even spread. With the ratio of buses between the two points at the moment, 4 will use the x3, 4 will use the 9 and 12 will use the 35.
That's using an even spread, which we all know doesn't happen in the real world. Passengers get the most frequent bus between the two points, in this case the 35.
For the X3 to be a success, it needs to compete on an even playing field with alternative services. It can't compete between these two points for frequency and it is arguable it can't compete between Sunderland and Newcastle with the metro for frequency either. The only place it can offer a viable alternative is from Boldon Colliery to Newcastle, hence the introduction of the x36 to run alongside it.

There are countless similar examples of this happening around the GNE area time and time again, more so since the 2006 changes.

Edit.
Looking at it from a different point of view, look at the Arriva X2 versus the GNE 21 and x21 at any point between Newcastle, Chester and Durham.
100 passengers spread equally per hour between the services and there is only going to be one winner if the ratio is 6 : 2 : 1

I agree and disagree.

I understand the points made about ratios and likelihood of getting on a certain service rather than another, but I think there's also another side to it. I speak from my own experience, and from things I have witnessed in the past.

Chester Road in Sunderland is another example. Up until the cutting-off point (at the Royal Hospital), there are 17 bus services - demonstrated by the timetable shown here. Admittedly, some of those are peak time services only, but a great deal aren't. From experience, I can't say that passengers alighting at the bus stop given on that timetable show a great deal about customer loyalty to a service, its succession, or anything like that. With my example, I can't make a correlation between frequency - varying from every 10 minutes to every 30 minutes - and succession rate.

Further up the road, there are 9 bus services - again shown in the timetable here. The same thing applies.

I understand your point that, if a journey is unplanned/unscheduled, a customer is most likely to get the next bus that turns up that goes to the place they want to go. The exception? If the infrequent bus due after it manages to get to the other place first. Your example of Newcastle Road is a prime example of what I'm talking about - see here for timetable, you can see journey times. The 35 takes 17 minutes to get to Park Lane from Newcastle Road. The 9, E2 and X3 take between 10 and 12 minutes, but in my experience, can get there even sooner than that. If I miss the infrequent 9 service and a 35 is due in 5 minutes or so, with an X3 due 10 minutes after that, chances are, I'll just wait for the X3. From knowledge of the service, I know it can often get to Fulwell a few minutes early, and can get to Park Lane sooner than it is scheduled to arrive. I'm saving all of a minute. People may not want to do that because they know the 35 has arrived whereas there is always the chance the X3 will be late, and as such, the 35 will arrive before the X3, but I've always done it that way.

If planning my journey, I'll always choose the fastest option available and plan my journey around that - providing that the fastest option can still get me there before the slower option including waiting time at a given place! The 21/X21 is a prime example of that to Chester-le-Street or Durham.

If a Merc arrived as the 35 I would get that instead of waiting for the x3 due to comfort.

Don't forget that as a general rule, the more frequent the service the greater number of resources, thus greater operating cost, too. And ticket machine data gives operators a wealth of detail regarding travel patterns, so stronger routes on corridors can be identified.

There is a strong argument for simplification: rightly or otherwise, industry experience has shown that 'Simple and frequent' services have more chance of attracting non-bus users. For instance, I can't remember the last time I looked at the timetable for a coast road bus in North Tyneside. Even though each route is only every 15, such are the combined timetables, the corridor draws in loads of commuters from nearby estates.

I made a point about corridors and buses using it - being percieved badly like in the case of the 21 or 27. If buses along that corridor have the same start and end point, disruption causes chaos for that entire route.
If there is a corridor but buses have a different start point, but the same end point, disruption or perception isnt as bad. If there are problems in say Cleadon, then the impact will be only felt by the 35, other routes along Newcastle Road wont be affected.

As for the point about Daniel chosing the X3 over the 35, I reckon your in a minority. I dont imagine normal passengers wait 5-10 mins to get there 1 min quicker

(01 May 2013, 6:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote As for the point about Daniel chosing the X3 over the 35, I reckon your in a minority. I dont imagine normal passengers wait 5-10 mins to get there 1 min quicker

I admittedly could have come up with a better example because of such tight timings, but I stand by my point, assuming that you'd get there more than a minute faster on other appropriate journeys. I've chosen the X3 over the 35 in the past because the 35 comes at xx:14, whereas the X3 comes at xx:17. Why get the X3? It gets there faster! Suggesting that people would rather get the 35 and spend an extra 7 minutes or so on the bus is like suggesting people would rather get the 56 than the X3 from Sunderland to Newcastle.
As a general point rather than specific examples... Say you have to wait an extra 5 minutes to get Bus B because it's quicker than Bus A by 10 minutes... Would you get Bus B? I doubt I'm in the minority of bus users that would choose Bus B.

Just heard 39 going to be running every ten minutes at peak times from June 2nd!!

Im not knocking what you do, I just cant see the majority of people doing that standing in the rain on Newcastle Road or on John/Fawcett Street with their shopping...

Building on this a bit more, if the more frequent services are the ones which are branded in a bid to build brand loyalty, if brand loyalty is percieved to work, then it makes sense the 35 will be the most popular

(01 May 2013, 6:41 pm)Acky81 wrote Just heard 39 going to be running every ten minutes at peak times from June 2nd!!

Cheers! Just done a check on Traveline, and it appears that short runs are being introduced between Sunderland and Doxford International; the dupes appearing to start/finish at the Interchange

[attachment=4411]

[attachment=4412]

36's will appear to run as a circular service with new numbers 36/36A, on the same route as proposed in the consultation, differing only by operating through Witherwack once again instead of Marley Pots. They appear to operate in continuous circles every half an hour under a PVR of 4 in total. The times don't appear to be coordinated in any way with X36, and I'm thinking that X36 and short X3's could be interworking at Sunderland under a PVR of 3, and a further two for the stand-alone full-length X3.

36 looks set to be coordinated with 26 to offer a 15 minute service to Castletown at 04/19/34/49 past the hour. Once again though, best to wait for official release from GNE to be sure

36 (clockwise)

[attachment=4413]
[attachment=4414]

36A (anticlockwise)

[attachment=4415]
[attachment=4416]

(30 Apr 2013, 8:48 pm)lesybear2002 wrote I quite like the Citaros but theres never a day goes by without a branded bus from another route on it. In the past couple of days Ive seen a Tyne Expess B7 and a Fab 57 B10 on it.

Im a fan of them too. From photos I've seen on flickr taken on the same days sometimes there's 3 of our citylink artics covering on the x66, leaving route 58 short of bendies.
So isn't the issue often with x66's allocated citaros being unrealiable rather than the vehicles that happen to be citylink branded.
I think they should bring up the batch still in London/down south, put them with the current ones up here now, pick the best ones plus a few spares and ditch the rest.
Probably not gonna happen though by the sounds of it

its got for the 39 on a short run.. Stand E.. wonder if that's for the short runs or all the time.

The 36 route looks abit confusing.. y can't it be the same number on the full route.

Next for 39 are bigger buses we need them

Just a thought regarding the 39's frequency increase.

With the Drifter/Saltwell Park getting Streetlites and the Versas from those services going on the Washington Street Shuttle. Which will then make the MPD's on that service available.

As temporary measure until the 39 gets newer bigger buses, they receive some of the MPD's which are already in the Doxford Clipper Base Colour of silver.

or what I said last week.

8 go to chester le street for the 34/34A/71 which would then lead to the withdrawl of more DAF's and SPD's and the rest go to Peterlee to replace the 2000/01 MPD's on the East Durham Network.

Morning all, just passed Washington Depot and it looks like there is a purple B10 parked outside.

Regards
(on 4937)

NK55 OLM is on the X21 to Newcastle got a picture which will be posted on my Flickr soon, anyone interested my Flickr name is the same as my name on here

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And there's the picture------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/69217501@N0...hotostream

SPD 8233 is on the 73 also - 16:02 departure (though running 5 minutes late from Park Lane, having arrived at 16:05). Not an odd allocation or anything like that, but certainly not something you see every day!

(02 May 2013, 3:17 pm)Wellsey18 wrote NK55 OLM is on the X21 to Newcastle got a picture which will be posted on my Flickr soon, anyone interested my Flickr name is the same as my name on here

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And there's the picture------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/69217501@N0...hotostream

Two OK's were were also running on the X21 last Friday too.
Deptford allowing 542 out on the X3 again this afternoon.

Are any of the versas going to end up at Percy main because i think they would be ideal buses to stick on the 17 or the 9 maybe? Anyone else agree/disagree

(03 May 2013, 7:09 am)Wellsey18 wrote Are any of the versas going to end up at Percy main because i think they would be ideal buses to stick on the 17 or the 9 maybe? Anyone else agree/disagree

Probley's not, the Drifter and Saltwell Park Versa's are heading to Washington for the Washington Street Shuttle... I bet they will look great in a silver base and hopefullya new Washington street shuttle brand style.

From the latest North Eastern Traffic area, [/align]Notice and Proceedings issue 2148.



GO NORTH EAST LIMITED
Director(s): Keith Down, David Brown, McPHERSON COLIN, CARR KEVIN.
117 QUEEN STREET GATESHEAD NE8 2UA
Decreased authorisation at existing operating centre: SUNDERLAND ROAD GATESHEAD NE8 3LU ()
New authorisation at this operating centre will be: 123 vehicle(s),
Increased authorisation at existing operating centre: HIGH STREET STANLEY DH9 0TE ()
New authorisation at this operating centre will be: 68 vehicle(s),
Increased authorisation at existing operating centre: SITE 11,, SALTMEADOWS ROAD , GATESHEAD NE8 3AH ()
New authorisation at this operating centre will be: 26 vehicle(s),
Decreased authorisation at existing operating centre: ELDDIS TRANSPORT, DELVES LANE , CONSETT DH8 7LH ()
New authorisation at this operating centre will be: 13 vehicle(s),

I hope they do get repainted and the Washington Street Shuttle brand isn't green...

(03 May 2013, 7:44 am)Daniel wrote I hope they do get repainted and the Washington Street Shuttle brand isn't green...

Or Red with corporate Northern branding..... ! Too many branded buses are running on other (wrong)routes. Branding is OK on a few "special" services, but GNEs use of branded buses seems to have spiralled out of control. Bus Depot managers don't seem to understand the importance of keeping branded buses running only on specified services, which they carry the brand for.
Branded buses running on other routes cause confusion especially with Visitors to our region, the Elderly, and some other customers.
The Northern red brand could be much improved, to promote a quality corporate image (See Lothian Buses)
- Maybe this will be taken out of the Bus Operators' hands when Nexus introduce Quality service contracts (and if Lord Adonis' report is taken on board. a larger PTE covering Nexus' area plus Northumberland & County Durham (LA7) - We would then have a region wide brand (as London transport) with only small legal titles indicating operating company.

(03 May 2013, 8:40 am)Venturego wrote Maybe this will be taken out of the Bus Operators' hands when Nexus introduce Quality service contracts (and if Lord Adonis' report is taken on board. a larger PTE covering Nexus' area plus Northumberland & County Durham (LA7) - We would then have a region wide brand (as London transport) with only small legal titles indicating operating company.

A region-wide brand would be a case of "chucking the baby out with the bathwater" - it would be a disaster, removing all the benefits that GNE, SNE and now Arriva have proved come from good marketing.

And don't forget that Nexus' believes it works, too - why else are Quaylink and Sunderland Connect in distinctive liveries?

(03 May 2013, 9:06 am)eezypeazy wrote

(03 May 2013, 8:40 am)Venturego wrote Maybe this will be taken out of the Bus Operators' hands when Nexus introduce Quality service contracts (and if Lord Adonis' report is taken on board. a larger PTE covering Nexus' area plus Northumberland & County Durham (LA7) - We would then have a region wide brand (as London transport) with only small legal titles indicating operating company.

A region-wide brand would be a case of "chucking the baby out with the bathwater" - it would be a disaster, removing all the benefits that GNE, SNE and now Arriva have proved come from good marketing.

And don't forget that Nexus' believes it works, too - why else are Quaylink and Sunderland Connect in distinctive liveries?

I agree some brands, which are relative work very well (Quaylink) but GNE have too many brands that mean very little, have no link with corporate identity, and in many cases are operated on incorrect routes - just look at some previous posts re. Lambton Worm on Lime, Quaylink running in Jarrow etc.... Good Marketing works well, Bad management of marketing is a disaster. Lothian Buses keep a smart corporate identity, with effective route sub-branding which works very well. This has recently been extended by slight variation of colour scheme for long distance/outside of Greater Edinburgh area. Quality image is maintained in a corporate brand identity which portrays the company's brand values well.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelst138/8640133216/

Mix of Old (scattered diamonds) and New below:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gs_rn=12&gs_ri=psy-ab&cp=4&gs_id=2q&xhr=t&q=lothian+buses&biw=1440&bih=712&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=1Y-DUYr3MMnL0AXdpICYDg#um=1&hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=lothian+buses+branding&oq=lothian+buses+branding&gs_l=img.12...73357.77029.0.79764.9.9.0.0.0.0.473.1243.6j2j4-1.9.0...0.0...1c.1.12.img.7ap_tYxsTls&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45960087,d.d2k&fp=d5101b66a71c9517&biw=1440&bih=712

And here the interpretation of their corporate branding for subsidiary East Lothian (after taking over First bus operation in the area:
http://thebuspeople.co.uk/?p=950

Timetables are also given in an excellent format:
http://lothianbuses.com/timetables-tickets-maps

I don't think that it's essential for brands to link with corporate identity? Stagecoach North East certainly do link their brands to their corporate identity (a recent example being the revised "100 metrocentre" branding), but I can't say it's any more effective than that of Go North East's all-over branding?

I'm a massive fan of Lothian, but can't say that their way of doing things is any more effective than that of Go North East's methods? It would be unfair to even compare the two companies as they are anyway... From what I understand, Lothian is a municipal bus company. How can we compare Lothian to Go North East if Lothian as a company isn't owned in the same way as Go North East? Lothian can afford to invest in new vehicles because the City of Edinburgh Council are paid a sum of money by the UK's Department of Transport for such a purpose?

As we all know, Go North East are increasing the reliability of their fleet by investing in a lot of new vehicles - some of which will also hopefully be Euro 6, when a suitable vehicle has been chosen after demonstrations. I agree wholeheartedly with the points raised about incorrect allocations, and branded vehicles appearing on the wrong service, but surely this isn't a reason for all companies within the North East to come together to form a quality contract? I find it somewhat unorthodox for that suggestion to be made, when there are perhaps better reasons in support of quality contracts being beneficial. This huge investment just shows that management of marketing isn't as bad as you claim. If Go North East are willing to invest in further vehicles to withdraw older vehicles from the fleet and have those vehicles that do hold the corporate livery at present replaced with newer, more reliable examples which are used on branded service work at the moment, can't you see that steps are in place to rectify some of the issues you have made?

Although a lot of brands have been added to the fleet lately, a lot have also been discarded. Examples of this? 24, 64, 95, 96, 9, X25, West Durham... A lot of the brands that have been recently added to the network hold few vehicles to its brand. QEH, S1, Festival NE, X40, Cobalt Connect? Various companies are paying for those buses under the mentioned brands to be branded. Not only must Go North East, Nexus and other bus companies think it's a good idea to brand vehicles, but other companies who are paying for these vehicles to be branded on the services being contracted must also think that! Generally speaking, if we discard the brands being paid for externally rather than by Go North East, the number of brands is in fact decreasing. Points have been raised regarding a number of brands recently, and their relevance to the services which they hold. Go North East have had their reasons for reviving or retaining brands, but examples of these brands weren't ever meant to be permanent. A temporary solution. I think it's highly possible that if brands have vehicles which are holding older vehicles which could be used elsewhere, the brand will receive a more suitable name with newer vehicles or it will go Northern. Think 19 - it had a vehicle upgrade and the irrelevant brand name has gone, and it now holds a sensible brand name which is relevant. Anyone can guess sensibly what may happen in the future, following the new arrival of vehicles to the fleet. They may not be correct, but I can happily say that I agree with some of the suggestions made regarding some brands to see vehicle upgrades etc, with the existing lot being used as "Northern" or being withdrawn completely. This all links in with network branding. I see positive things for the future, and, providing voluntary agreements are put in place rather than quality contracts, they can be fulfilled.

Your point about private organisations paying for branding is interesting.

GNE need extra revenue. All companies are grateful for it.
If the GNE marketing team can sell the virtues of advertising and convince an organisation to pay for an all over advert they will.
That advert, just like any other form of commercial advertising doesnt guarantee success. Any marketeer will focus on the positives and promote their services in an effort to build revenue.
Whether that revenue is made via the traditional advertising on interior, the side panels or rear of buses (where revenue is supposedly falling) or to more adventurous marketing like the bus paints/wraps (who remembers the MCW deckers in the 80s and 90s with all over adverts? TDK, Radio Newcastle and Best Buy), bus tickets (I seem to rember Burger King were offering discounts on burgers in the mid-90s) or via the on-board monitors (that didnt last long!)
It is the world we live in.

However, what guarantees can the operator give that the bus will be working in an appropriate area?
It isnt necessarily a method that can be specifically targeted at an audience either.
And are the audience actually paying attention, if they are used to seeing a brightly coloured bus of some description everyday?
On my travels today I have seen buses of all sorts of descriptions, couldnt tell you about the adverts on the side of them though (there was one vehicle with a rear bonnet advert about an iron supplement, couldnt tell you its name though).