Is there something up with the B5s today?
Both spares are off the road, 2 were taken out of service at CLS mid-journey this morning, and it seems one broke down in Newcastle (from the tracking at least).

Running 4 OmniDekkas and a Versa (which is obviously at capacity when leaving Durham) on a 'premium' route isn't good

(10 Dec 2021, 12:35 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Is there something up with the B5s today?
Both spares are off the road, 2 were taken out of service at CLS mid-journey this morning, and it seems one broke down in Newcastle (from the tracking at least).

Running 4 OmniDekkas and a Versa (which is obviously at capacity when leaving Durham) on a 'premium' route isn't good

not just the X21, 

16/16A/47/47A/309/310/311.
Not to mention there is a Prince Bishops on the 61, a 2019 Liveried one on the 20, Saltwell park on the 56 & 2. Berries on the 9.  Corporate on the X6, Purples on the 33.

The 2 spares are sat in the corner at CLS

6335 had quite a lot of work done to it in august/September time and now has a habit of overheating

Not sure what's up with the rest

(11 Dec 2021, 3:10 pm)NL62WVW wrote The 2 spares are sat in the corner at CLS

6335 had quite a lot of work done to it in august/September time and now has a habit of overheating

Not sure what's up with the rest

There's seemingly 4 Omnidekkas on the X21 today as well, those 3 B5s that went off yesterday are still off.

6335 hasn't been out and about since Thursday, and 6334 since 22nd November.

I had to begrudgingly spend an extra hour in Spoons drinking coffee as I didn't fancy the journey up without a table

The chance of non branded buses appearing on the X21 has recently been increased by the addition of an extra bus into the PVR (now PVR 9) meaning 6308-14 & 6334/5 now all form the full PVR for the service with spares currently being OmniDekka's (until StreetDecks transfer from Consett at least)

(11 Dec 2021, 4:52 pm)Jimmi wrote The chance of non branded buses appearing on the X21 has recently been increased by the addition of an extra bus into the PVR (now PVR 9) meaning 6308-14 & 6334/5 now all form the full PVR for the service with spares currently being OmniDekka's (until StreetDecks transfer from Consett at least)

I wouldn't mind the odd Omnidekka here and there, but when less than half of the vehicles are branded, or even meet the specification promised, then it's taking the p.

(11 Dec 2021, 4:52 pm)Jimmi wrote The chance of non branded buses appearing on the X21 has recently been increased by the addition of an extra bus into the PVR (now PVR 9) meaning 6308-14 & 6334/5 now all form the full PVR for the service with spares currently being OmniDekka's (until StreetDecks transfer from Consett at least)

How is the PVR now 9?

I thought it was just a 4 hour round trip?

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To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the Volvo B5TL.

The X21 has never really had the right vehicle allocated. A bit of a shame the newer StreetDecks part of the original plan before COVID never got the chance of redemption.

I still say the X45/X46 would be better suited to Volvo B5TLs due to the lack of evening & Sunday boards (evenings & Sundays covered by E400MMCs interworking with 47, X30, X72) with the newer StreetDecks going the other way.

A bit unfair to tar all StreetDecks with the same brush. The earlier classic E400s weren't great but the later ones before MMCs have been spot on.

(11 Dec 2021, 5:29 pm)L469 YVK wrote How is the PVR now 9?

I thought it was just a 4 hour round trip?

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To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the Volvo B5TL.

The X21 has never really had the right vehicle allocated. A bit of a shame the newer StreetDecks part of the original plan before COVID never got the chance of redemption.

I still say the X45/X46 would be better suited to Volvo B5TLs due to the lack of evening & Sunday boards (evenings & Sundays covered by E400MMCs interworking with 47, X30, X72) with the newer StreetDecks going the other way.

A bit unfair to tar all StreetDecks with the same brush. The earlier classic E400s weren't great but the later ones before MMCs have been spot on.

I thought the 67 plate StreetDecks we had on the X21 were spot on, 6332 was basically always allocated to the X21 from new prior to it being moved over to Consett and as far as I'm aware it was rarely off the road. 

The one place I prefer the B5s is on the A1 because they actually have the right gearing to go 'motorway speeds', whereas the Streetdecks don't.

(11 Dec 2021, 5:29 pm)L469 YVK wrote How is the PVR now 9?

I thought it was just a 4 hour round trip?

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To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the Volvo B5TL.

The X21 has never really had the right vehicle allocated. A bit of a shame the newer StreetDecks part of the original plan before COVID never got the chance of redemption.

I still say the X45/X46 would be better suited to Volvo B5TLs due to the lack of evening & Sunday boards (evenings & Sundays covered by E400MMCs interworking with 47, X30, X72) with the newer StreetDecks going the other way.

A bit unfair to tar all StreetDecks with the same brush. The earlier classic E400s weren't great but the later ones before MMCs have been spot on.

From 30 October the timetable was revised to include around 25 minutes layover in Newcastle to improve reliability.

The Volvo B5s aren’t unsuited to the X21 at all. Realistically it’s only a very small percentage of the route where the bus is flat out. It’s the typical scenario where a few buses are off service and no spares are carried, so routine maintenance then being carried out looks and feels worse.

In a few weeks there will be StreetDecks spare and it will be less noticeable.


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(11 Dec 2021, 6:17 pm)Dan wrote From 30 October the timetable was revised to include around 25 minutes layover in Newcastle to improve reliability.

The Volvo B5s aren’t unsuited to the X21 at all. Realistically it’s only a very small percentage of the route where the bus is flat out. It’s the typical scenario where a few buses are off service and no spares are carried, so routine maintenance then being carried out looks and feels worse.

In a few weeks there will be StreetDecks spare and it will be less noticeable.


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I do disagree slightly about only small parts of the route being flat out.

While obviously it's not motorway, the dual carriage way between Low Fell and A1 is pretty much flat out, as is between CLS and Pity Me, then between Durham and Croxdale, then it's fast A roads between Middlestone Moor and Coundon

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(11 Dec 2021, 7:27 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I do disagree slightly about only small parts of the route being flat out.

While obviously it's not motorway, the dual carriage way between Low Fell and A1 is pretty much flat out, as is between CLS and Pity Me, then between Durham and Croxdale, then it's fast A roads between Middlestone Moor and Coundon

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Will be an interesting few years ahead. I still don't agree the B5TL is the right vehicle for the route.

Yes in hindsight between Durham and Newcastle, it's just a 'fast' version of the 21, that route being more than capable of using lightweight vehicles. But given that it goes beyond Durham now and the fact the route is over 31mi long, the likes of the ADL E400MMC  or OM936 StreetDeck is what the route ideally needs for stability.

Obviously the B5TLs do have some life left in them but definitely wouldn't keep on the X21 past 7 year old and I'd suggest replacements when they're between 5-7 year old.

Also taking into account they were hammered on the X9 & X10 suffering a similar fate to 6043-48 which were starting to struggle around 2015 until they were replaced in 2017.

The 16 plate streetdecks were a bit ropey before getting replaced by the B5's.

As someone who drives them daily I'd rather have a 67 plate Streetdeck over a B5, the acceleration on a Streetdeck makes up for the lack of top speed.

That timetable change nearly caught me out a few Saturdays ago too, 15 Mins late into town and thought I i was straight in and out of Eldon Square but had 10 mins sit. Has really helped out with reliability of the service

(12 Dec 2021, 10:22 am)NL62WVW wrote The 16 plate streetdecks were a bit ropey before getting replaced by the B5's.

As someone who drives them daily I'd rather have a 67 plate Streetdeck over a B5, the acceleration on a Streetdeck makes up for the lack of top speed.

That timetable change nearly caught me out a few Saturdays ago too, 15 Mins late into town and thought I i was straight in and out of Eldon Square but had 10 mins sit. Has really helped out with reliability of the service

As a passenger, the B5s feel a bit more nippy off the line in comparison to the StreetDecks, it was the first thing I noticed when we got them.

(12 Dec 2021, 1:39 pm)streetdeckfan wrote As a passenger, the B5s feel a bit more nippy off the line in comparison to the StreetDecks, it was the first thing I noticed when we got them.

Don't get me wrong there are a few of our B5s that go like the clappers off the mark, but once you get to about 20/25mph the Streetdeck will be upto 50 long before a B5

(12 Dec 2021, 1:45 pm)NL62WVW wrote Don't get me wrong there are a few of our B5s that go like the clappers off the mark, but once you get to about 20/25mph the Streetdeck will be upto 50 long before a B5

Yeah, I'd say that's probably about right. It was going around Woodhouse Estate that they felt quick, even with drivers that are traditionally dawdlers.

The downside though is when you have a driver that starts to move off when you're still going up the stairs, you really have to hold on!

5411, 6146, 6164 & 8296 are all allocated with X-Lines spares 6335/6377 to the X21 today according to Bus Times with the only Branded examples in service being 6310, 6312 & 6313.

6308, 6309, 6311, 6314 & 6334 are the ones currently off the road.

(13 Dec 2021, 2:09 pm)Malarkey wrote 5411, 6146, 6164 & 8296 are all allocated with X-Lines spares 6335/6377 to the X21 today according to Bus Times with the only Branded examples in service being 6310, 6312 & 6313.

6308, 6309, 6311, 6314 & 6334 are the ones currently off the road.

It is beyond a joke.

(13 Dec 2021, 2:09 pm)Malarkey wrote 5411, 6146, 6164 & 8296 are all allocated with X-Lines spares 6335/6377 to the X21 today according to Bus Times with the only Branded examples in service being 6310, 6312 & 6313.

6308, 6309, 6311, 6314 & 6334 are the ones currently off the road.

5411 was actually on the 21 this morning before later finding it's way onto the X21, 5411 replaced 6308 around lunchtime with 8296 replacing 6162 shortly after.

8325 also took 3941's place on the X22 (also performing 888/91/X1A) although 3941 came back out for scholars and the 1628 X22 to Durham.

3942, 6165 are off atm

*all this info is from BusTimes

(11 Dec 2021, 7:27 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I do disagree slightly about only small parts of the route being flat out.

While obviously it's not motorway, the dual carriage way between Low Fell and A1 is pretty much flat out, as is between CLS and Pity Me, then between Durham and Croxdale, then it's fast A roads between Middlestone Moor and Coundon

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Low Fell to A1 can't be more than a mile and I'm sure it's 40mph limit. A167 from Chester to Durham is 50 and the Angel's cope well enough with that. After Neville's Cross to Tudhoe is national speed limit and Middlestone Moor to Bishop is too which is fair enough. I wouldn't say any of them are particularly long stretches flat out - certainly compared to what the B5s used to operate. The X84/85 probably spends longer flat out than the X21 at any point.

In all honesty, I don't see any reason when any bus should have an issue with the X21, other than that the StreetDecks which used to be on them seem to have been fairly problematic no matter where they've been put and as already mentioned, the B5s have been flogged on the X10 like the B9s were before that.

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To be honest, with the expansion of EV's over the coming years, I doubt the B5TLs will be on the X21 beyond 2024/2025 (8 year old), most likely end up on the 58 by then.

The B5TLs should suffice until at least then and are ok for now.

However whilst I doubt new vehicles will be purchased for the X21 (diesel or electric), given the following route profile:

- Constituencies = Build back greener = Support from Government
- Infrastructure at Consett depot
- Routes serving Redheugh Bridge, Bensham Bank, Tyne Bridge and Central Station

I could potentially see something like the X30's/X70's getting EV's BUT not until at least 2024-25ish. That would then allow 6341-49 to succeed 6308-14 & 6334-35 on the X21 with 6350/51 providing enough Euro 6 spares or being split across GNE along with 6338-40 to provide backups should GNE choose ADL/BYD for their EV decker orders.

(14 Dec 2021, 5:59 pm)6049 wrote In all honesty, I don't see any reason when any bus should have an issue with the X21, other than that the StreetDecks which used to be on them seem to have been fairly problematic no matter where they've been put and as already mentioned, the B5s have been flogged on the X10 like the B9s were before that.

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The irony is that extra StreetDecks before COVID plus 6330-33 were to make up the PVR of the X21 when it was 12x alongside 6304-07.

But my argument given Consett's interworking patterns (evening 47/X30/X45/X72 and Sunday X30/X45/X46/X72) and the above initial order is that brand new StreetDecks are parked up in Consett depot during evenings & Sundays when they should be out on the road reducing running costs & making revenue.

Now if GNE used them (albeit diluting the XLines brand) on the Sunday 47/47A over fuel hungry B9TLs, that would make sense. But based on the September service changes, I would certainly opt from a cost based perspective to have Volvo B5TLs parked up during evenings & Sundays over brand new StreetDecks taking into account age, vehicle history and enhanced BSOG mileage. Not forgetting common decker fleet commonality across Washington & CLS depots.

I would have thought range would be an issue for electric vehicles on the x21. It's a long route.

(14 Dec 2021, 11:05 pm)BusLoverMum wrote I would have thought range would be an issue for electric vehicles on the x21. It's a long route.

Imagine it'll be ran by Hydrogen buses at some point when petrol is banned. It'll likely be the fuel choice for most buses anyway as when you have the kit for Hydrogen for your one long bus route; X9/X10 (Riverside), X21 (CLS), X1 (Washington), X84/X85 (Hexham), X20 (Deptford) then why the hell not just do the rest since it's got the potential to be much simpler.

Electric buses are just a gimmick and won't last up here long term imo but I could be wrong (see gas buses at Darlington and Sunderland which were pretty much a failure).

Why are gas buses a failure.?

(14 Dec 2021, 9:57 pm)L469 YVK wrote The irony is that extra StreetDecks before COVID plus 6330-33 were to make up the PVR of the X21 when it was 12x alongside 6304-07.

But my argument given Consett's interworking patterns (evening 47/X30/X45/X72 and Sunday X30/X45/X46/X72) and the above initial order is that brand new StreetDecks are parked up in Consett depot during evenings & Sundays when they should be out on the road reducing running costs & making revenue.

Now if GNE used them (albeit diluting the XLines brand) on the Sunday 47/47A over fuel hungry B9TLs, that would make sense. But based on the September service changes, I would certainly opt from a cost based perspective to have Volvo B5TLs parked up during evenings & Sundays over brand new StreetDecks taking into account age, vehicle history and enhanced BSOG mileage. Not forgetting common decker fleet commonality across Washington & CLS depots.

Didn't Dan say something about the enhanced BSOG payment not sticking around for much longer?

(15 Dec 2021, 12:05 am)idiot wrote Why are gas buses a failure.?

I don't think Busyways see the Scania Gas as a failure, yes the drivers complain about their lack of grunt and hill climbing power, but the intention still seems to be long term gas is going to be concentrated on Sunderland. the £ per mile figures are what makes the accountants happy..

(15 Dec 2021, 12:05 am)idiot wrote Why are gas buses a failure.?

Lack of any future orders, can't really say whether they will at Sunderland but long term it suggests it's a one time thing. Maybe they will at Sunderland but who knows yet. 

Darlington have already bought Diesel buses instead (Streetlites in 2017).

Then again I don't believe a single clean bus has been bought outright up here, unsure on the second batch of Yutongs coming.

(15 Dec 2021, 10:10 am)Storx wrote Lack of any future orders, can't really say whether they will at Sunderland but long term it suggests it's a one time thing. Maybe they will at Sunderland but who knows yet. 

Darlington have already bought Diesel buses instead (Streetlites in 2017).

Then again I don't believe a single clean bus has been bought outright up here, unsure on the second batch of Yutongs coming.

Problem is atm all these alternative fueled buses are still more expensive to buy than a conventional diesel so for the most part companies aren't getting them unless they receive funding from somewhere such as councils.

(15 Dec 2021, 3:49 pm)Jimmi wrote Problem is atm all these alternative fueled buses are still more expensive to buy than a conventional diesel so for the most part companies aren't getting them unless they receive funding from somewhere such as councils.

Part of me wonders if the reason for them still being so expensive it's because of the grants available.
Cars are nearing price equity between ICE and EV, so I would have thought the gulf between ICE and EV commercial vehicles would be getting closer by now, but it doesn't seem to be.

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(15 Dec 2021, 3:49 pm)Jimmi wrote Problem is atm all these alternative fueled buses are still more expensive to buy than a conventional diesel so for the most part companies aren't getting them unless they receive funding from somewhere such as councils.

Aren't the running costs lower though, so that should offset some of the extra cost (I'm not sure how much though obviously). For gas buses I always thought the stumbling block was more the infrastructure costs upfront.

Mind in the short term future it would be nice to see the government really push them by changing the BSOG payment so that any new Diesel bus is punished in comparison to zero emission buses.