Route Development | Network Expansion & New Services
Route Development | Network Expansion & New Services
(29 Dec 2021, 10:59 am)L469 YVK I might be wrong, but I'm fairly sure it's 16 minutes at both ends?
That's still fairly decent. Some of Arriva Alnwick 'X' routes have less at both ends.
It's not something GNE would've done without much consideration.
Times have changed and GNE need to adapt accordingly. And that doesn't just go for the X9/X10 or cutting other services where the demand has eased, but maybe actually exploiting other changes to travel pattern demands etc and potentially capitalising.
(29 Dec 2021, 10:59 am)L469 YVK I might be wrong, but I'm fairly sure it's 16 minutes at both ends?
That's still fairly decent. Some of Arriva Alnwick 'X' routes have less at both ends.
It's not something GNE would've done without much consideration.
Times have changed and GNE need to adapt accordingly. And that doesn't just go for the X9/X10 or cutting other services where the demand has eased, but maybe actually exploiting other changes to travel pattern demands etc and potentially capitalising.
(29 Dec 2021, 1:58 pm)Andreos1 I'd love that to happen. I don't think the powers that be at GNE towers think that such things exist beyond a couple of once a day services to Whitby or Belsay.I think they have initially although it does take time to establish demands and patterns etc
I can't think of the last regular service they introduced. The AD122? That wasn't exactly a new, inspirational idea either...
(29 Dec 2021, 1:58 pm)Andreos1 I'd love that to happen. I don't think the powers that be at GNE towers think that such things exist beyond a couple of once a day services to Whitby or Belsay.I think they have initially although it does take time to establish demands and patterns etc
I can't think of the last regular service they introduced. The AD122? That wasn't exactly a new, inspirational idea either...
(29 Dec 2021, 2:36 pm)L469 YVK I think they have initially although it does take time to establish demands and patterns etc
- Follingsby Amazon
- Tyne Valley Retail Park
- Arniston Centre
If the Blyth Gigaplant takes off, maybe an extension to the 309 or even the 1 to create links within North Tyneside (areas not covered by the train) would be an opportunity.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:36 pm)L469 YVK I think they have initially although it does take time to establish demands and patterns etc
- Follingsby Amazon
- Tyne Valley Retail Park
- Arniston Centre
If the Blyth Gigaplant takes off, maybe an extension to the 309 or even the 1 to create links within North Tyneside (areas not covered by the train) would be an opportunity.
(29 Dec 2021, 1:58 pm)Andreos1 I'd love that to happen. I don't think the powers that be at GNE towers think that such things exist beyond a couple of once a day services to Whitby or Belsay.
I can't think of the last regular service they introduced. The AD122? That wasn't exactly a new, inspirational idea either...
(29 Dec 2021, 1:58 pm)Andreos1 I'd love that to happen. I don't think the powers that be at GNE towers think that such things exist beyond a couple of once a day services to Whitby or Belsay.
I can't think of the last regular service they introduced. The AD122? That wasn't exactly a new, inspirational idea either...
(29 Dec 2021, 2:43 pm)Andreos1 Follingsby Park is one to take advantage of and it's a good thing they've started serving it. It's just a shame that those regulars on the 4 are affected by a diversion and see longer journeys as a result.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:43 pm)Andreos1 Follingsby Park is one to take advantage of and it's a good thing they've started serving it. It's just a shame that those regulars on the 4 are affected by a diversion and see longer journeys as a result.
I concur many of times I have heard people mention how nice the 21's are, I was even on a OmniDekka coming from Brandon (Nevels Cross) as I didn't want to get on the 21, due to School Services at Durham, and I heard people saying, they are much nicer, spacious buses and that as from buses older than what Arriva puts on.
But tbh It would be nice to get a hourly service from the 21 whcih terminates at Durham. to have a every 12min Frequency.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:57 pm)Keeiajs I concur many of times I have heard people mention how nice the 21's are, I was even on a OmniDekka coming from Brandon (Nevels Cross) as I didn't want to get on the 21, due to School Services at Durham, and I heard people saying, they are much nicer, spacious buses and that as from buses older than what Arriva puts on.
But tbh It would be nice to get a hourly service from the 21 whcih terminates at Durham. to have a every 12min Frequency.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:57 pm)Keeiajs I concur many of times I have heard people mention how nice the 21's are, I was even on a OmniDekka coming from Brandon (Nevels Cross) as I didn't want to get on the 21, due to School Services at Durham, and I heard people saying, they are much nicer, spacious buses and that as from buses older than what Arriva puts on.
But tbh It would be nice to get a hourly service from the 21 whcih terminates at Durham. to have a every 12min Frequency.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm)Dan It is so much more difficult to get a business case to stack up to introduce a brand new service. It is easier to add to the existing network, either diverting or extending an existing service, to try and capitalise on areas of potential demand.The X21 extension seems to be getting busier and busier every time I see it, with most people actually paying, with the Arriva 6 most of the people I see getting on are using their ENCTS pass.
In very simple numbers it costs around £100k to add 1 PVR to a service. It is clear to see why operators (not just Go North East) rarely add additional buses to the network, and aim to have such new ventures (partly) funded, even if it's just short-term kick-start funding.
That said, there have been a few changes to the network over the last few years:
- X1 extended beyond Easington Lane to Peterlee and Dalton Park, enabling through links from Washington to these areas.
- X5/X15 extended beyond Consett to Shotley Bridge to provide a through link to Durham - with the view that this would become commercially viable and ran commercially once S106 funding ran out.
- X21 extended beyond Bishop Auckland to Tindale Crescent and then West Auckland - initially as a partial replacement for service 18, but developed further since.
- 4 diverted via Follingsby Park to serve the new Amazon FC.
- 10B extended from Prudhoe Station to Tyneview Retail Park.
- 21 diverted via Arnison Centre and extended beyond Durham to Brandon
It's sad that you weren't able to think of any of these - arguably Go North East has done a lot more than other operators in the area, although Stagecoach's extension of service 22 to Cobalt (initially received kick-start funding from Cobalt, I understand) and introduction of service X24 deserve a mention. Clearly in a post-Covid world, service 22 probably isn't commercially viable anymore, with the number of people actually working in the office at Cobalt. Similarly the X24 was predominantly used by ENCTS users and they are some of the biggest customer base not returning to buses very quickly, and it is highly likely that ENCTS payments are likely to be heavily reduced next year to fund the Metro.
Whilst short-notice cancellations have not helped the development of the X1, I think Go North East has capitalised on the poor operation of Arriva in Durham with services 21 and X21. Anecdotally I have heard customers comment on the 'posher buses' and cheaper fares on the Go North East services.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm)Dan It is so much more difficult to get a business case to stack up to introduce a brand new service. It is easier to add to the existing network, either diverting or extending an existing service, to try and capitalise on areas of potential demand.The X21 extension seems to be getting busier and busier every time I see it, with most people actually paying, with the Arriva 6 most of the people I see getting on are using their ENCTS pass.
In very simple numbers it costs around £100k to add 1 PVR to a service. It is clear to see why operators (not just Go North East) rarely add additional buses to the network, and aim to have such new ventures (partly) funded, even if it's just short-term kick-start funding.
That said, there have been a few changes to the network over the last few years:
- X1 extended beyond Easington Lane to Peterlee and Dalton Park, enabling through links from Washington to these areas.
- X5/X15 extended beyond Consett to Shotley Bridge to provide a through link to Durham - with the view that this would become commercially viable and ran commercially once S106 funding ran out.
- X21 extended beyond Bishop Auckland to Tindale Crescent and then West Auckland - initially as a partial replacement for service 18, but developed further since.
- 4 diverted via Follingsby Park to serve the new Amazon FC.
- 10B extended from Prudhoe Station to Tyneview Retail Park.
- 21 diverted via Arnison Centre and extended beyond Durham to Brandon
It's sad that you weren't able to think of any of these - arguably Go North East has done a lot more than other operators in the area, although Stagecoach's extension of service 22 to Cobalt (initially received kick-start funding from Cobalt, I understand) and introduction of service X24 deserve a mention. Clearly in a post-Covid world, service 22 probably isn't commercially viable anymore, with the number of people actually working in the office at Cobalt. Similarly the X24 was predominantly used by ENCTS users and they are some of the biggest customer base not returning to buses very quickly, and it is highly likely that ENCTS payments are likely to be heavily reduced next year to fund the Metro.
Whilst short-notice cancellations have not helped the development of the X1, I think Go North East has capitalised on the poor operation of Arriva in Durham with services 21 and X21. Anecdotally I have heard customers comment on the 'posher buses' and cheaper fares on the Go North East services.
(29 Dec 2021, 3:14 pm)streetdeckfan The X21 extension seems to be getting busier and busier every time I see it, with most people actually paying, with the Arriva 6 most of the people I add getting on are using their ENCTS pass.
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(29 Dec 2021, 3:14 pm)streetdeckfan The X21 extension seems to be getting busier and busier every time I see it, with most people actually paying, with the Arriva 6 most of the people I add getting on are using their ENCTS pass.
Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk
(29 Dec 2021, 3:20 pm)Dan In a similar vein to the 21/49, I would like to think that a future development opportunity could be to run a bus every 10 mins combined between the 6 and X21 (each every 20). This would offer a much more attractive customer proposition than a 6 every 12(?) mins and X21 every 30.
Based on your anedoctal experiences, it's likely fare-paying passengers are choosing to use the X21 because it's cheaper, and ENCTS users are using the 6 because it's the first bus that turns up and the one they're more accustomed to using.
Go North East ran services 308 and X10 to Blyth on Boxing Day, and I have heard a number of comments about how passengers tried to buy the £4 North Tyne day ticket (valid on GNE's 309) and were taken aback when they were told it costs £8.50 on Arriva's service.
(29 Dec 2021, 3:20 pm)Dan In a similar vein to the 21/49, I would like to think that a future development opportunity could be to run a bus every 10 mins combined between the 6 and X21 (each every 20). This would offer a much more attractive customer proposition than a 6 every 12(?) mins and X21 every 30.
Based on your anedoctal experiences, it's likely fare-paying passengers are choosing to use the X21 because it's cheaper, and ENCTS users are using the 6 because it's the first bus that turns up and the one they're more accustomed to using.
Go North East ran services 308 and X10 to Blyth on Boxing Day, and I have heard a number of comments about how passengers tried to buy the £4 North Tyne day ticket (valid on GNE's 309) and were taken aback when they were told it costs £8.50 on Arriva's service.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm)Dan It's sad that you weren't able to think of any of these - arguably Go North East has done a lot more than other operators in the area, although Stagecoach's extension of service 22 to Cobalt (initially received kick-start funding from Cobalt, I understand) and introduction of service X24 deserve a mention. Clearly in a post-Covid world, service 22 probably isn't commercially viable anymore, with the number of people actually working in the office at Cobalt.It's swings and roundabouts. The GNE route thay the 22 did the most damage to was the 1.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm)Dan It's sad that you weren't able to think of any of these - arguably Go North East has done a lot more than other operators in the area, although Stagecoach's extension of service 22 to Cobalt (initially received kick-start funding from Cobalt, I understand) and introduction of service X24 deserve a mention. Clearly in a post-Covid world, service 22 probably isn't commercially viable anymore, with the number of people actually working in the office at Cobalt.It's swings and roundabouts. The GNE route thay the 22 did the most damage to was the 1.
(29 Dec 2021, 3:20 pm)Dan In a similar vein to the 21/49, I would like to think that a future development opportunity could be to run a bus every 10 mins combined between the 6 and X21 (each every 20). This would offer a much more attractive customer proposition than a 6 every 12(?) mins and X21 every 30.It would be nice to see the X21/21 going every 20 mins each to Durham leading to one every 10 mins from NCL.
(29 Dec 2021, 3:20 pm)Dan In a similar vein to the 21/49, I would like to think that a future development opportunity could be to run a bus every 10 mins combined between the 6 and X21 (each every 20). This would offer a much more attractive customer proposition than a 6 every 12(?) mins and X21 every 30.It would be nice to see the X21/21 going every 20 mins each to Durham leading to one every 10 mins from NCL.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm)Dan It is so much more difficult to get a business case to stack up to introduce a brand new service. It is easier to add to the existing network, either diverting or extending an existing service, to try and capitalise on areas of potential demand.
In very simple numbers it costs around £100k to add 1 PVR to a service. It is clear to see why operators (not just Go North East) rarely add additional buses to the network, and aim to have such new ventures (partly) funded, even if it's just short-term kick-start funding.
That said, there have been a few changes to the network over the last few years:
- X1 extended beyond Easington Lane to Peterlee and Dalton Park, enabling through links from Washington to these areas.
- X5/X15 extended beyond Consett to Shotley Bridge to provide a through link to Durham - with the view that this would become commercially viable and ran commercially once S106 funding ran out.
- X21 extended beyond Bishop Auckland to Tindale Crescent and then West Auckland - initially as a partial replacement for service 18, but developed further since.
- 4 diverted via Follingsby Park to serve the new Amazon FC.
- 10B extended from Prudhoe Station to Tyneview Retail Park.
- 21 diverted via Arnison Centre and extended beyond Durham to Brandon
It's sad that you weren't able to think of any of these - arguably Go North East has done a lot more than other operators in the area, although Stagecoach's extension of service 22 to Cobalt (initially received kick-start funding from Cobalt, I understand) and introduction of service X24 deserve a mention. Clearly in a post-Covid world, service 22 probably isn't commercially viable anymore, with the number of people actually working in the office at Cobalt. Similarly the X24 was predominantly used by ENCTS users and they are some of the biggest customer base not returning to buses very quickly, and it is highly likely that ENCTS payments are likely to be heavily reduced next year to fund the Metro.
Whilst short-notice cancellations have not helped the development of the X1, I think Go North East has capitalised on the poor operation of Arriva in Durham with services 21 and X21. Anecdotally I have heard customers comment on the 'posher buses' and cheaper fares on the Go North East services.
(29 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm)Dan It is so much more difficult to get a business case to stack up to introduce a brand new service. It is easier to add to the existing network, either diverting or extending an existing service, to try and capitalise on areas of potential demand.
In very simple numbers it costs around £100k to add 1 PVR to a service. It is clear to see why operators (not just Go North East) rarely add additional buses to the network, and aim to have such new ventures (partly) funded, even if it's just short-term kick-start funding.
That said, there have been a few changes to the network over the last few years:
- X1 extended beyond Easington Lane to Peterlee and Dalton Park, enabling through links from Washington to these areas.
- X5/X15 extended beyond Consett to Shotley Bridge to provide a through link to Durham - with the view that this would become commercially viable and ran commercially once S106 funding ran out.
- X21 extended beyond Bishop Auckland to Tindale Crescent and then West Auckland - initially as a partial replacement for service 18, but developed further since.
- 4 diverted via Follingsby Park to serve the new Amazon FC.
- 10B extended from Prudhoe Station to Tyneview Retail Park.
- 21 diverted via Arnison Centre and extended beyond Durham to Brandon
It's sad that you weren't able to think of any of these - arguably Go North East has done a lot more than other operators in the area, although Stagecoach's extension of service 22 to Cobalt (initially received kick-start funding from Cobalt, I understand) and introduction of service X24 deserve a mention. Clearly in a post-Covid world, service 22 probably isn't commercially viable anymore, with the number of people actually working in the office at Cobalt. Similarly the X24 was predominantly used by ENCTS users and they are some of the biggest customer base not returning to buses very quickly, and it is highly likely that ENCTS payments are likely to be heavily reduced next year to fund the Metro.
Whilst short-notice cancellations have not helped the development of the X1, I think Go North East has capitalised on the poor operation of Arriva in Durham with services 21 and X21. Anecdotally I have heard customers comment on the 'posher buses' and cheaper fares on the Go North East services.
(29 Dec 2021, 4:40 pm)Andreos1 We used to see the patter about 'experimental service being withdrawn' and whilst it was always a shame to see a route withdrawn after a quite significant period of time, at least the routes were introduced and given a try.
(29 Dec 2021, 4:40 pm)Andreos1 We used to see the patter about 'experimental service being withdrawn' and whilst it was always a shame to see a route withdrawn after a quite significant period of time, at least the routes were introduced and given a try.
(29 Dec 2021, 4:40 pm)Andreos1 It's interesting to see that the extension of an existing route (replacing one in the case of the 18/X21 or reinstating part of a historic route in the case of the 21/X46) is viewed as a new route.
They're positives. But not sure they're a new route.
I can see why an operator would look to do something on the cheap by adding a vehicle or two to the PVR and extending a route to open up new connections - rather than creating a new route in its entirity, but is that part of the issue and why we've seen a steady decline in the almost 40 years since de-reg?
It's almost like a mantra of introducing something as cost effective as possible, is the only answer or option and that the entrepreneureal ideology of speculating to accumulating, has gone out of the window. Because 'it's easier'.
We used to see the patter about 'experimental service being withdrawn' and whilst it was always a shame to see a route withdrawn after a quite insignificant period of time, at least the routes were introduced and given a try.
(29 Dec 2021, 4:40 pm)Andreos1 It's interesting to see that the extension of an existing route (replacing one in the case of the 18/X21 or reinstating part of a historic route in the case of the 21/X46) is viewed as a new route.
They're positives. But not sure they're a new route.
I can see why an operator would look to do something on the cheap by adding a vehicle or two to the PVR and extending a route to open up new connections - rather than creating a new route in its entirity, but is that part of the issue and why we've seen a steady decline in the almost 40 years since de-reg?
It's almost like a mantra of introducing something as cost effective as possible, is the only answer or option and that the entrepreneureal ideology of speculating to accumulating, has gone out of the window. Because 'it's easier'.
We used to see the patter about 'experimental service being withdrawn' and whilst it was always a shame to see a route withdrawn after a quite insignificant period of time, at least the routes were introduced and given a try.
(29 Dec 2021, 5:53 pm)L469 YVK @Dan
Could we not create or use an existing thread (I think there is one) for route development? It makes a very interesting conversation.
(29 Dec 2021, 5:53 pm)L469 YVK @Dan
Could we not create or use an existing thread (I think there is one) for route development? It makes a very interesting conversation.
I do think BSIP if implemented and marketed correctly will bring benefits.
Clear standout examples include some of the examples for Durham. Others could include:
- GNE 1 & SNE 22 coordinated frequency (maybe every 15 mins each and every 7-8 combined on common sections).
- ANE 308 & GNE 309 coordinated frequency (every 20 mins each and approximately every 10 mins combined on common sections). Evening journeys also re-timed to provide a 30 mins combined frequency on common sections and Sunday journeys re-timed to provide an approx 15 minute frequency on common sections.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:10 pm)L469 YVK I do think BSIP if implemented and marketed correctly will bring benefits.The 308/309 is a no brainer as the running times are virtually identical
Clear standout examples include some of the examples for Durham. Others could include:
- GNE 1 & SNE 22 coordinated frequency (maybe every 15 mins each and every 7-8 combined on common sections).
- ANE 308 & GNE 309 coordinated frequency (every 20 mins each and approximately every 10 mins combined on common sections). Evening journeys also re-timed to provide a 30 mins combined frequency on common sections and Sunday journeys re-timed to provide an approx 15 minute frequency on common sections.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:10 pm)L469 YVK I do think BSIP if implemented and marketed correctly will bring benefits.The 308/309 is a no brainer as the running times are virtually identical
Clear standout examples include some of the examples for Durham. Others could include:
- GNE 1 & SNE 22 coordinated frequency (maybe every 15 mins each and every 7-8 combined on common sections).
- ANE 308 & GNE 309 coordinated frequency (every 20 mins each and approximately every 10 mins combined on common sections). Evening journeys also re-timed to provide a 30 mins combined frequency on common sections and Sunday journeys re-timed to provide an approx 15 minute frequency on common sections.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:10 pm)L469 YVK I do think BSIP if implemented and marketed correctly will bring benefits.
Clear standout examples include some of the examples for Durham. Others could include:
- GNE 1 & SNE 22 coordinated frequency (maybe every 15 mins each and every 7-8 combined on common sections).
- ANE 308 & GNE 309 coordinated frequency (every 20 mins each and approximately every 10 mins combined on common sections). Evening journeys also re-timed to provide a 30 mins combined frequency on common sections and Sunday journeys re-timed to provide an approx 15 minute frequency on common sections.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:10 pm)L469 YVK I do think BSIP if implemented and marketed correctly will bring benefits.
Clear standout examples include some of the examples for Durham. Others could include:
- GNE 1 & SNE 22 coordinated frequency (maybe every 15 mins each and every 7-8 combined on common sections).
- ANE 308 & GNE 309 coordinated frequency (every 20 mins each and approximately every 10 mins combined on common sections). Evening journeys also re-timed to provide a 30 mins combined frequency on common sections and Sunday journeys re-timed to provide an approx 15 minute frequency on common sections.