ZEBRA zero-emission buses scheme launched

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(29 Oct 2021, 8:35 pm)Keeiajs Wrote: Would be nice to see Deptford get some electric buses possibly for the 60/20 or 56 (seems to be the most popular Sunderland routes)

56 is a long route, not sure they would do from 5am till midnight (services during the night are Streetlites)

How many miles can the Yutong's go before they need charging?

What about the other electric buses, you can buy, how long do they last?
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(29 Oct 2021, 7:35 pm)Michael Wrote: In Martijn's live update tonight, he has confirmed they've bid for buses.... 77 bid


50 for GNE and rest for Durham/Northumberland council contracts.

https://www.facebook.com/100009920923911...3754764936 - from 2:15



Also, it looks like all of the future GNE buses order will be electric - so no more streetdecks/Streetlites by the look of it - but electric buses are double the price of Diesel buses.

Looks like the bid for the initial 50 Buses will be for the Tyne Valley Ten, Angel 21 & Cobalt & Coast 309/310/311 as the PVR for these services is 50, the other 27 will be the X-Lines X5/X15 & Durham P&R/Cathedral Bus Services and then Tynedale Links Network in Hexham which was what originally documented. 

I think in the interests of fleet standardisation they'll order either Wright Streetdeck Electroliners or the new Volvo BZL following demonstration then i'd think they'd likely stick with Yutong for any single deck orders but then again the smallest Yutong is 10.8m which is what is Voltra's at the moment, so I would therefore think potentially they may order some 9.6m BYD E200EV's.
(29 Oct 2021, 9:56 pm)Malarkey Wrote: Looks like the bid for the initial 50 Buses will be for the Tyne Valley Ten, Angel 21 & Cobalt & Coast 309/310/311 as the PVR for these services is 50, the other 27 will be the X-Lines X5/X15 & Durham P&R/Cathedral Bus Services and then Tynedale Links Network in Hexham which was what originally documented. 

I think in the interests of fleet standardisation they'll order either Wright Streetdeck Electroliners or the new Volvo BZL following demonstration then i'd think they'd likely stick with Yutong for any single deck orders but then again the smallest Yutong is 10.8m which is what is Voltra's at the moment, so I would therefore think potentially they may order some 9.6m BYD E200EV's.
But really they need to be looking at the millage of the double deckers and how that battery degreds over time.
(29 Oct 2021, 8:39 pm)Michael Wrote: 56 is a long route, not sure they would do from 5am till midnight (services during the night are Streetlites)

How many miles can the Yutong's go before they need charging?

What about the other electric buses, you can buy, how long do they last?
Along with removing the barriers of electric buses being cost prohibitive at the moment (operators seem to not to buy them unless the exchequer helps them out), we probably need more creative thinking in how to deliver zero emissions public transport.

I spotted this video on YouTube from Germany, where they have an electric highway used by trucks. Some of the range issues could perhaps be solved by having similar overhead lines, with the dual purpose of being used for fast charging buses whilst in a section and for trams too.

https://youtu.be/_3P_S7pL7Yg

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(31 Oct 2021, 1:33 am)Adrian Wrote: Along with removing the barriers of electric buses being cost prohibitive at the moment (operators seem to  not to buy them unless the exchequer helps them out), we probably need more creative thinking in how to deliver zero emissions public transport.

I spotted this video on YouTube from Germany, where they have an electric highway used by trucks. Some of the range issues could perhaps be solved by having similar overhead lines, with the dual purpose of being used for fast charging buses whilst in a section and for trams too.

https://youtu.be/_3P_S7pL7Yg

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Hydrogen will be the future for vans, buses and trucks imo. The tech and the demand just isn't there but I'm pretty certain it'll become more mainstream when the petrol stations realise that petrol is finished. After all they need something to sell and with Shell and the likes on board they'll soon appear.
(31 Oct 2021, 1:33 am)Adrian Wrote: Along with removing the barriers of electric buses being cost prohibitive at the moment (operators seem to  not to buy them unless the exchequer helps them out), we probably need more creative thinking in how to deliver zero emissions public transport.

I spotted this video on YouTube from Germany, where they have an electric highway used by trucks. Some of the range issues could perhaps be solved by having similar overhead lines, with the dual purpose of being used for fast charging buses whilst in a section and for trams too.

https://youtu.be/_3P_S7pL7Yg

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Reducing/and or extending battery life would be idealy served by pantographs collecting from halos at bus stations, as is in use elsewhere. Trams need to come back, the metro can't expand west now. buses could feed from ole as trolley buses used to leaving the battery for dead sections as the metro proposed for Durham.
(31 Oct 2021, 8:32 am)Storx Wrote: Hydrogen will be the future for vans, buses and trucks imo. The tech and the demand just isn't there but I'm pretty certain it'll become more mainstream when the petrol stations realise that petrol is finished. After all they need something to sell and with Shell and the likes on board they'll soon appear.
The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.

Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.

The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable

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(31 Oct 2021, 12:31 pm)streetdeckfan Wrote: The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.

Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.

The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable

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Aye your right currently. I think Hydrogen will become mainstream in other areas though, boilers in particular and once you've got them using Hydrogen then there's no reason why cars etc can't use the same supplies. I'm sure they're looking for ways to make it cleaner now anyway and isn't there one opening in Teesside soon, could be wrong there though. In fairness though the electric batteries are less than environmentally friendly aswell especially when disposing of them every 5 year since they're deteriorate massively.

The biggest advantage though is it works like petrol so if they did have to refuel it's as easy as popping to a pump and it's done whereas electric obviously they have to sit around for hours waiting for them to be charged which is less than ideal. Well and I don't believe there is deterioration problems either (could be wrong there though).
(31 Oct 2021, 12:31 pm)streetdeckfan Wrote: The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.

Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.

The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59107805

When you look at Bamford, the investment in Wrightbus, the work they've already done with hydrogen and this development with JCB - there's seems to be a clear trajectory.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
(31 Oct 2021, 8:32 am)Storx Wrote: Hydrogen will be the future for vans, buses and trucks imo. The tech and the demand just isn't there but I'm pretty certain it'll become more mainstream when the petrol stations realise that petrol is finished. After all they need something to sell and with Shell and the likes on board they'll soon appear.

I'd say the technology is already there, but the demand isn't unless the exchequer is prepared to fund it. From what I understand about the deal for the 15x Hydrogen Wrightbus deckers in Aberdeen, it was actually funded by Aberdeen City Council, the Scottish Government and the European Union and worked out around £500,000 per bus. 

There needs to be more research and development put in by the Government to reduce the cost of electric and hydrogen powered vehicles, because the current setup of operators only being interested when there's money on offer is unsustainable. The public purse shouldn't be solely responsible for driving a green agenda for business. 

(31 Oct 2021, 8:45 am)54APhotography Wrote: Reducing/and or extending battery life would be idealy served by pantographs collecting from halos at bus stations, as is in use elsewhere. Trams need to come back, the metro can't expand west now. buses could feed from ole as trolley buses used to leaving the battery for dead sections as the metro proposed for Durham.

Similar to the setup for the Harrogate locals. It's quite impressive how that works, having seen it in action. Something like that would actually be ideal for the Durham Park and Ride, or even something City based like the 700 in Sunderland or 64 in Durham.

I agree on Trams and in my opinion would play a significant role in decarbonising public transport. There is clearly a role for both trams and buses to play, if we stop seeing them as competition for one another. 

(31 Oct 2021, 12:31 pm)streetdeckfan Wrote: The issue is that on-demand hydrogen production is fairly inefficient, and iirc, hydrogen is for the most part currently just a byproduct of fossil fuel production.

Obviously if the electricity used to generate hydrogen was green it wouldn't be too bad, but I'd imagine if they had their own on-site generation they'd end up using power from the grid which isn't so green.

The advantage of hydrogen is due to its far superior energy density compared to lithium based batteries the ranges can be a lot further, making them actually usable

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The best method would be to have a pipeline, and to be honest, I think that's the way we'll eventually go. The National Grid are apparently making plans around this already, with some repurposing of existing gas pipeline.

I'd like to think there could be a significant infrastructure contribution to bus depots, if there was a reciprocal commitment by the operators (at their own expense) to have a plan towards turning that depot fully-hydrogen. 

Having used the hydrogen deckers in Aberdeen, I actually think they perform a lot better than electric buses I've been on, including GNE's Yutong fleet. Those deckers just feel effortless and you forget that it's not a fossil-fuel powered bus.
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Working it out, it will be 1x spare per group of routes out of the initial 50x (1:15, 1:16, 1:16 ratios)

What will happen regarding Chester & Percy Main depots? Will they have the infrastructure or will temporary outstations / compounds be setup until newer depots are built?
(31 Oct 2021, 7:59 pm)L469 YVK Wrote: Working it out, it will be 1x spare per group of routes out of the initial 50x (1:15, 1:16, 1:16 ratios)

What will happen regarding Chester & Percy Main depots? Will they have the infrastructure or will temporary outstations / compounds be setup until newer depots are built?

I wonder if the other 27 will be passed around different companies for the Hexham and Northumberland contracted services? So like GNE could have them for 3 year before moving to Arriva for example or would the council have to have them stay with one company due to the deal passed over to the government for the funding.


That's if they actually get the funding... which I doubt as its the North East...

Is there any space for the charging infrastructure at those depots?

Edit:

Found a PDF with info on about the bid for the North East

https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp...l-1-RV.pdf
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(31 Oct 2021, 10:18 pm)Michael Wrote: I wonder if the other 27 will be passed around different companies for the Hexham and Northumberland contracted services? So like GNE could have them for 3 year before moving to Arriva for example or would the council have to have them stay with one company due to the deal passed over to the government for the funding.


That's if they actually get the funding... which I doubt as its the North East...

Is there any space for the charging infrastructure at those depots?

Edit:

Found a PDF with info on about the bid for the North East

https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp...l-1-RV.pdf
So if successful, that could see the Angel moved from Chester Le Street to Riverside? Unless the longer term plan will be to close Chester Le Street with services potentially being split between Washington/Riverside/Consett.
(31 Oct 2021, 10:18 pm)Michael Wrote: I wonder if the other 27 will be passed around different companies for the Hexham and Northumberland contracted services? So like GNE could have them for 3 year before moving to Arriva for example or would the council have to have them stay with one company due to the deal passed over to the government for the funding.


That's if they actually get the funding... which I doubt as its the North East...

Is there any space for the charging infrastructure at those depots?

Edit:

Found a PDF with info on about the bid for the North East

https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp...l-1-RV.pdf

What is interesting about the bid is that if it is successful the operations of the "Angel 21" will move to Gateshead Riverside Depot, further to that they've bid for 10 new buses for the Venture Network which has not been mentioned previously.
(31 Oct 2021, 10:18 pm)Michael Wrote: I wonder if the other 27 will be passed around different companies for the Hexham and Northumberland contracted services? So like GNE could have them for 3 year before moving to Arriva for example or would the council have to have them stay with one company due to the deal passed over to the government for the funding.


That's if they actually get the funding... which I doubt as its the North East...

Is there any space for the charging infrastructure at those depots?

Edit:

Found a PDF with info on about the bid for the North East

https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp...l-1-RV.pdf

Looking at the document, it looks as though they're planning on getting the BYD ADL Enviro400EVs, since I can't seem to see any other 10.9m EV deckers.

As for the single deckers, they'll probably stick with the Yutongs for fleet standardisation, with the 9m single deckers probably being Solo EVs
(01 Nov 2021, 12:13 am)Malarkey Wrote: What is interesting about the bid is that if it is successful the operations of the "Angel 21" will move to Gateshead Riverside Depot, further to that they've bid for 10 new buses for the Venture Network which has not been mentioned previously.

Which now only has the V1/V2/V3 unless we see routes added in the future? Or they've amended the order and the PDF hasn't been updated.

Edit: looks like March 2022 when they'll find out if the bid is successful.
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(01 Nov 2021, 12:13 am)Malarkey Wrote: What is interesting about the bid is that if it is successful the operations of the "Angel 21" will move to Gateshead Riverside Depot, further to that they've bid for 10 new buses for the Venture Network which has not been mentioned previously.

surely will see a lot of dead mileage for the amount of runs that start at Chester le Street. Tho the odd workings when the electrics inevitably have issues might be interesting! 

Pre covid there, in fact probably 2015-7ish there was talk of CLS closing and a new depot at Drum Industrial Estate but it never happened. It would be sensible considering CLS can’t be expanded and doesn’t look future ready though I imagine it’s a large capital outlay at a time when they haven’t got much but they could merge Washington and CLS into Drum or another early site.
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(01 Nov 2021, 12:13 am)Malarkey Wrote: What is interesting about the bid is that if it is successful the operations of the "Angel 21" will move to Gateshead Riverside Depot, further to that they've bid for 10 new buses for the Venture Network which has not been mentioned previously.

There can't be much of Chester-le-Street left, if the 21 moves to Riverside? Although I appreciate that is what the document suggests. 

I wonder if the age of the CLS depot has anything to do with it, along with the viability of getting charging equipment in place for EVs?

(01 Nov 2021, 1:42 am)Ambassador Wrote: surely will see a lot of dead mileage for the amount of runs that start at Chester le Street. Tho the odd workings when the electrics inevitably have issues might be interesting! 

Pre covid there, in fact probably 2015-7ish there was talk of CLS closing and a new depot at Drum Industrial Estate but it never happened. It would be sensible considering CLS can’t be expanded and doesn’t look future ready though I imagine it’s a large capital outlay at a time when they haven’t got much but they could merge Washington and CLS into Drum or another early site.

I'd guess a lot of those Chester-le-Street starting runs happen because that is where the depot is. If the 21 moved to Riverside, they'll probably just start earlier in Newcastle or Gateshead, rather than having to make the light journey to Chester-le-Street.
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(01 Nov 2021, 11:18 am)Adrian Wrote: There can't be much of Chester-le-Street left, if the 21 moves to Riverside? Although I appreciate that is what the document suggests. 

I wonder if the age of the CLS depot has anything to do with it, along with the viability of getting charging equipment in place for EVs?

I'd guess a lot of those Chester-le-Street starting runs happen because that is where the depot is. If the 21 moved to Riverside, they'll probably just start earlier in Newcastle or Gateshead, rather than having to make the light journey to Chester-le-Street.

I could see CLS depot closing in the future tbh especially if the 21 moves to Riverside, pretty much everything they operate could easily be done out of other depots, only real awkward ones are the 34/71 for driver changeovers.

Could maybe add a few extra X22 trips to save on some dead milage too.
(01 Nov 2021, 6:07 pm)Jimmi Wrote: I could see CLS depot closing in the future tbh especially if the 21 moves to Riverside, pretty much everything they operate could easily be done out of other depots, only real awkward ones are the 34/71 for driver changeovers.

Could maybe add a few extra X22 trips to save on some dead milage too.
If the NatEx & Stagecoach merger happens it has already been suggested within Busways that Walkergate would be the depot for both brands. Guess that would be a significant loss to Chester.