North East Buses

(17 Oct 2020, 10:42 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Yeah agreed (for once). It's just the little things that stand out to me, not painting the blue under the seats which is rusty, not painting the grab rails etc. Definitely a downgrade from the Mercedes imo.


I don't use Facebook for this so guessing similar comments on there.


Is it a capacity upgrade though? It used to be every 10 minutes in 2018 but now it's every 15 minutes. I can't imagine there being too much of a difference between 6x Citaros vs 4x B9TL's. Dangerous move that imo, surely the opposite approach would be wiser get the impression around that the bus is the better option to travel and try and give a Metro vs Bus decision for people. If the Metro becomes more reliable, it's more frequent and has new trains on vs battered buses and less frequent it's not a hard decision. That not hugely profitable bus route will very quickly become unprofitable.

I think covid probably cased the frequency decrease and the crusader last year was only every 10 minutes between Jarrow and Newcastle

(17 Oct 2020, 11:53 pm)Ambassador wrote [ -> ]I’d tend to agree but with low tier routes it’s always going to be the case sadly. 

The fine folk of South Tyneside will just have to ride the 9 or look forward to Metro replacements for a bit of class haha

I just think if you're going through the hassle of 'refurbishing' something, you may as well do a proper job. 
They don't even have to go the whole way like they did with the Cobalts, I think just replacing the flooring and touching up the flaking paintwork would have been enough to completely transform them.

(17 Oct 2020, 9:00 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]I'm not trying to be funny but that isn't a refurbishment it's just the seats redone in something that contrasts with everything else. Looks terrible imo. Suppose it's another interior design to add to the other 10 or so GNE have.

Nor was it ever really intended to be perceived as a refurbishment! It's a seat re-trim (which includes fitment of USB charging points to maintain the previous specification of the Citaros), at the same time as the repaint being completed.

Anything more, you're going to add considerable time (and cost!) to the quick spruce-up these buses are receiving. Time and money which Go North East doesn't have, in the current climate, where the return to service of these double-decks permits a further single-deck to double-deck upgrade.

Agreed that there's a bit of a colour clash here, and the poles at the base of each seat should have been repainted black to 'mask' the rust. It will be done in due course (and add another colour into the tenth variant of interior design that Go North East have introduced, to keep you and streetdeckfan happy on that front!)

(17 Oct 2020, 10:42 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Is it a capacity upgrade though? It used to be every 10 minutes in 2018 but now it's every 15 minutes. I can't imagine there being too much of a difference between 6x Citaros vs 4x B9TL's. Dangerous move that imo, surely the opposite approach would be wiser get the impression around that the bus is the better option to travel and try and give a Metro vs Bus decision for people. If the Metro becomes more reliable, it's more frequent and has new trains on vs battered buses and less frequent it's not a hard decision. That not hugely profitable bus route will very quickly become unprofitable.

Even using your logic it's a capacity upgrade in terms of number of seats per hour - 40*6=240, 71*4=284 - but not too sure why this should have anything to do with it.

The service's frequency wasn't reduced due to the impending double-deck vehicle allocation. It was reduced because the demand which was once there, wasn't any longer (and I know the counter argument to this is always that reducing the frequency can reduce demand further, and this is in turn a vicious circle). I'd suggest that perhaps if the service wasn't interworking with the 26, it would have maintained a 12-minute headline frequency, but you can't really interwork a 12-minute frequency service with a half-hourly frequency service, particularly efficiently.

There's no comparison to be made between Metro and bus, really, either. In terms of its frequency, capacity and speed, the Metro wins every time. The perception of a Metro to a bus is in another league, and the bus will never win (even more so when their new trains arrive). I dare say most passengers on this corridor would still use the Metro even despite its poorer reliability, as whenever there is disruption, ticket acceptance is arranged on the 26/27 and quite often replacement buses are also provided.

It's the same with Stagecoach's X24 for journeys between Sunderland and Newcastle. There's very little traffic going end to end (other than ENCTS), and really the bulk of the passengers are picked up along Chester Road in Sunderland (the more residential part of the route), where passengers previously would use Go North East's services (2/2A to Washington Galleries and X1 to Gateshead/Newcastle), or go to University Metro (walk or bus) and catch the Metro from there. Anecdotally, a lot of the passengers on the X24 are Network One ticket holders rather than dedicated Stagecoach ticket holders.

I'd argue end to end traffic on the 27 is almost non-existent (again possibly besides ENCTS) and, really, this route offers a service to those who don't have easy access to a Metro station. There are several parts of the route where, by the time you also add in walking time, it's quicker to catch the bus.

Regardless of all of that - replacement of single-deck buses with double-decks in terms of capacity is an upgrade, replacement of buses with terribly worn leather seats and USB charging points which often don't work, and replacement of buses with Euro 5 emissions with ones which now have Euro 6 emissions, is a huge positive. The same people (mostly on Facebook) who have criticised the upgrade, are the same people who often say that the sun shines out of Go North East's rear bumper, yet I'm still waiting to see evidence of capacity/specification upgrades elsewhere..?

(18 Oct 2020, 7:13 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]Nor was it ever really intended to be perceived as a refurbishment! It's a seat re-trim (which includes fitment of USB charging points to maintain the previous specification of the Citaros), at the same time as the repaint being completed.

Anything more, you're going to add considerable time (and cost!) to the quick spruce-up these buses are receiving. Time and money which Go North East doesn't have, in the current climate, where the return to service of these double-decks permits a further single-deck to double-deck upgrade.

Agreed that there's a bit of a colour clash here, and the poles at the base of each seat should have been repainted black to 'mask' the rust. It will be done in due course (and add another colour into the tenth variant of interior design that Go North East have introduced, to keep you and streetdeckfan happy on that front!)

That's fair enough I've seen the word refurbishment thrown about a lot on here so assumed it was being classed as that. The blue under the seats is really noticeable though but I didn't mention the flooring and panels etc that was Streetdeckfan.

They'd look better though if the grab rails etc were painted the same colour as the Green Arrows buses though imo (not sure how difficult that is) to try and get arid of more of the blue.

(18 Oct 2020, 7:13 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]Even using your logic it's a capacity upgrade in terms of number of seats per hour - 40*6=240, 71*4=284 - but not too sure why this should have anything to do with it.

The service's frequency wasn't reduced due to the impending double-deck vehicle allocation. It was reduced because the demand which was once there, wasn't any longer (and I know the counter argument to this is always that reducing the frequency can reduce demand further, and this is in turn a vicious circle). I'd suggest that perhaps if the service wasn't interworking with the 26, it would have maintained a 12-minute headline frequency, but you can't really interwork a 12-minute frequency service with a half-hourly frequency service, particularly efficiently.

There's no comparison to be made between Metro and bus, really, either. In terms of its frequency, capacity and speed, the Metro wins every time. The perception of a Metro to a bus is in another league, and the bus will never win (even more so when their new trains arrive). I dare say most passengers on this corridor would still use the Metro even despite its poorer reliability, as whenever there is disruption, ticket acceptance is arranged on the 26/27 and quite often replacement buses are also provided.

It's the same with Stagecoach's X24 for journeys between Sunderland and Newcastle. There's very little traffic going end to end (other than ENCTS), and really the bulk of the passengers are picked up along Chester Road in Sunderland (the more residential part of the route), where passengers previously would use Go North East's services (2/2A to Washington Galleries and X1 to Gateshead/Newcastle), or go to University Metro (walk or bus) and catch the Metro from there. Anecdotally, a lot of the passengers on the X24 are Network One ticket holders rather than dedicated Stagecoach ticket holders.

I'd argue end to end traffic on the 27 is almost non-existent (again possibly besides ENCTS) and, really, this route offers a service to those who don't have easy access to a Metro station. There are several parts of the route where, by the time you also add in walking time, it's quicker to catch the bus.

Regardless of all of that - replacement of single-deck buses with double-decks in terms of capacity is an upgrade, replacement of buses with terribly worn leather seats and USB charging points which often don't work, and replacement of buses with Euro 5 emissions with ones which now have Euro 6 emissions, is a huge positive. The same people (mostly on Facebook) who have criticised the upgrade, are the same people who often say that the sun shines out of Go North East's rear bumper, yet I'm still waiting to see evidence of capacity/specification upgrades elsewhere..?

I think you misread that reply. I was just commenting on the point Ambassador made about in terms of investing into the Crusader because it's not that popular and that once the Metro is upgraded it's going to struggle rather than the frequency decrease which makes sense with the interworking patterns. I was just making the point that where there's competition it's probably the place where you'd want to provide a slightly better service since there's an alternative (in this case the Metro) rather than just giving up per say and the people who currently have a similar service by Bus vs Metro because of the walking time moving across when the new trains come and reliability should increase.

Obviously I wouldn't expect anyone to use the whole route, you'd have to be mentally insane (or Streetdeckfan) to want to take a journey which takes 3x longer for the sake of it, similar with the 1, 306 (Whitley), 6, X18 etc.

(18 Oct 2020, 10:58 am)Storx wrote [ -> ]I think you misread that reply. I was just commenting on the point Ambassador made about in terms of investing into the Crusader because it's not that popular and that once the Metro is upgraded it's going to struggle rather than the frequency decrease which makes sense with the interworking patterns. I was just making the point that where there's competition it's probably the place where you'd want to provide a slightly better service since there's an alternative (in this case the Metro) rather than just giving up per say and the people who currently have a similar service by Bus vs Metro because of the walking time moving across when the new trains come and reliability should increase.

I still think it's unfair to suggest Go North East have 'given up', though!

There'll still be a fair cost associated with doing the work that's being done - repaint, re-trim and USB fitment - which, given Go North East (and the other operators) are still making considerable losses, is something to be commended.

In different circumstances, yes, they'd have been given a full refurbishment (like Cobalt & Coast), but let's be honest - this isn't a million miles off, even if it doesn't look aesthetically pleasing (which only us enthusiasts are really going to care about!)

(18 Oct 2020, 11:19 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I still think it's unfair to suggest Go North East have 'given up', though!

There'll still be a fair cost associated with doing the work that's being done - repaint, re-trim and USB fitment - which, given Go North East (and the other operators) are still making considerable losses, is something to be commended.

In different circumstances, yes, they'd have been given a full refurbishment (like Cobalt & Coast), but let's be honest - this isn't a million miles off, even if it doesn't look aesthetically pleasing (which only us enthusiasts are really going to care about!)

Ah I don't think you've gave up on the Crusader, it was just in reference of not wanting to invest because of the Metro in 3 years (that's not the case though) but I'm sure it'll have happened in places before in the past (not in the N East).

Anyway I'll say something positive. I'm glad you finally got arid of the the e-leather as fabric is a much for pleasant thing sit on imo. I know some won't agree because of the cleaning etc but the leather just isn't nice imo and isn't premium especially after a few months when it's worn.

(18 Oct 2020, 7:13 am)Dan wrote [ -> ]I'd argue end to end traffic on the 27 is almost non-existent (again possibly besides ENCTS) and, really, this route offers a service to those who don't have easy access to a Metro station. There are several parts of the route where, by the time you also add in walking time, it's quicker to catch the bus.

There's also the people who already have a GNE ticket but not a Network One ticket because they don't usually travel on the Metro.

I've used the 27 end to end quite a few times because I'm too cheap to buy a Metro ticket! The only time I'll get the Metro is if someone else is paying.

I'd imagine it'd be a similar situation for the likes of the 1A.
A friend of mine is travelling as we speak to Whitley Bay from the Metrocentre, she chose to to get the bus to Newcastle then switch to a Metro because it's considerably faster, whereas I would have just got on the 1A and spent an extra hour travelling because I don't want to pay the extra for the Metro (ignore the fact I could just change buses at Newcastle and make up most of that time, that doesn't fit the narrative very well!)

(18 Oct 2020, 12:02 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Ah I don't think you've gave up on the Crusader, it was just in reference of not wanting to invest because of the Metro in 3 years (that's not the case though) but I'm sure it'll have happened in places before in the past (not in the N East).

Anyway I'll say something positive. I'm glad you finally got arid of the the e-leather as fabric is a much for pleasant thing sit on imo. I know some won't agree because of the cleaning etc but the leather just isn't nice imo and isn't premium especially after a few months when it's worn.

Yes, I think the Citaros these Volvo B9s are replacing are a great example of this! Some of them arguably look just as bad now, three years after refurbishment, than they did ten years after being delivered.

(18 Oct 2020, 12:02 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]Anyway I'll say something positive. I'm glad you finally got arid of the the e-leather as fabric is a much for pleasant thing sit on imo. I know some won't agree because of the cleaning etc but the leather just isn't nice imo and isn't premium especially after a few months when it's worn.

The issue isn't the fact that leather is used, it's the type of leather used (be it e-leather or actual dead cows)
The dark blue stuff they used previously looks just as good 5 years later as it did when it was new, but the red and blue leather hasn't aged very well.

I personally like a seat with a bit of slide to it, there's nothing worse than having to stand up a little to adjust yourself in a seat after sitting for a while, which is something I find myself doing quite a lot, especially with the ADL seats as the fabric is too grippy and the seats not very comfortable for longer journeys.
With the older leather seats, they are grippy enough to stop you sliding around, but still allow a bit of slip when you want it.

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(18 Oct 2020, 12:09 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Yes, I think the Citaros these Volvo B9s are replacing are a great example of this! Some of them arguably look just as bad now, three years after refurbishment, than they did ten years after being delivered.

It's not just the look, they're genuinely the most uncomfortable seats on any bus I've used in quite some time.
I think even those horrific seats on those Solos we had on the 18 were nicer

(18 Oct 2020, 12:03 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]There's also the people who already have a GNE ticket but not a Network One ticket because they don't usually travel on the Metro.

I've used the 27 end to end quite a few times because I'm too cheap to buy a Metro ticket! The only time I'll get the Metro is if someone else is paying.

I'd imagine it'd be a similar situation for the likes of the 1A.
A friend of mine is travelling as we speak to Whitley Bay from the Metrocentre, she chose to to get the bus to Newcastle then switch to a Metro because it's considerably faster, whereas I would have just got on the 1A and spent an extra hour travelling because I don't want to pay the extra for the Metro (ignore the fact I could just change buses at Newcastle and make up most of that time, that doesn't fit the narrative very well!)

No-one sane would travel on the 1A from end to end it takes way too long and you can just change in Newcastle as you said anyway. It's made even worse that it travels through some of the less pleasant places in North East so it can't be even made up by the scenary etc (X18).

(18 Oct 2020, 12:09 pm)Dan wrote [ -> ]Yes, I think the Citaros these Volvo B9s are replacing are a great example of this! Some of them arguably look just as bad now, three years after refurbishment, than they did ten years after being delivered.

Yeah definitely agreed tbh, it's the same with the flat cloth that Northern trains have used aswell which hasn't aged well at all and looks worse than the hap hazard brands of trains they've inherited over the years.

(18 Oct 2020, 12:09 pm)streetdeckfan wrote [ -> ]The issue isn't the fact that leather is used, it's the type of leather used (be it e-leather or actual dead cows)
The dark blue stuff they used previously looks just as good 5 years later as it did when it was new, but the red and blue leather hasn't aged very well.

I personally like a seat with a bit of slide to it, there's nothing worse than having to stand up a little to adjust yourself in a seat after sitting for a while, which is something I find myself doing quite a lot, especially with the ADL seats as the fabric is too grippy and the seats not very comfortable for longer journeys.
With the older leather seats, they are grippy enough to stop you sliding around, but still allow a bit of slip when you want it.

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It's not just the look, they're genuinely the most uncomfortable seats on any bus I've used in quite some time.
I think even those horrific seats on those Solos we had on the 18 were nicer

I've only used the Mercedes buses once since their refurb so can't really remember how uncomfortable they are but they can't be worse than Urban 90's or the rear seats on the VDL Gemini 2's (think they're Esteban Ciclo) both of which literally has padding which is about 2cm thick. The Little Coaster Solo's Esteban Civic's (which are used on 4 of the seats of the VDL Gemini 2's aswell) seats are up there aswell but not as bad.

(18 Oct 2020, 12:31 pm)Storx wrote [ -> ]No-one sane would travel on the 1A from end to end it takes way too long and you can just change in Newcastle as you said anyway. It's made even worse that it travels through some of the less pleasant places in North East so it can't be even made up by the scenary etc (X18).

I've only used the Mercedes buses once since their refurb so can't really remember how uncomfortable they are but they can't be worse than Urban 90's or the rear seats on the VDL Gemini 2's (think they're Esteban Ciclo) both of which literally has padding which is about 2cm thick. The Little Coaster Solo's Esteban Civic's (which are used on 4 of the seats of the VDL Gemini 2's aswell) seats are up there aswell but not as bad.

Did you just call me insane? I mean you're not wrong, I've got the 1A to Whitley Bay, went for a quick walk and came back on the 1A before just because I got bored!

You'll struggle to find any padding on the Citaros, it honestly feels like the leather has just been put straight onto the plastic frame of the chair.

With the Ex Red Arrow B9's returning from Blackburn now and being allocated to the 26/27, where will 6149 - 6161 end up?

(18 Oct 2020, 1:00 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]With the Ex Red Arrow B9's returning from Blackburn now and being allocated to the 26/27, where will 6149 - 6161 end up?

I'm guessing the 6/12/12A or the 57 because both use citaros and need upgraded to Euro 6

(18 Oct 2020, 1:00 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]With the Ex Red Arrow B9's returning from Blackburn now and being allocated to the 26/27, where will 6149 - 6161 end up?

13 / 25 I think was said at one point, not sure if plans have been changed though. Then supposedly they were going on The Loop aswell but those plans changed aswell, not sure if it was just temporary though to get the Mercedes off the Crusader quicker for the school services.

Thanks, I couldn't remember what was said before Covid - I think it was confirmed a while back that some of them won't be going on the 93/94 now.

Current PVR's for the services mentioned above:

6/6A/12/12A - PVR 9
57 - PVR 5
13/25 Newcastle - PVR 7

6149 - 6161 = 13

Other than the ones above - is there any other services which could require deckers?

(18 Oct 2020, 7:51 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]Thanks, I couldn't remember what was said before Covid - I think it was confirmed a while back that some of them won't be going on the 93/94 now.

Current PVR's for the services mentioned above:

6/6A/12/12A - PVR 9
57 - PVR 5
13/25 Newcastle - PVR 7

6149 - 6161 = 13

Other than the ones above - is there any other services which could require deckers?

Would like to see deckers on the 20 every 15 minutes, and use the streetlites off the 20 onto the 60 and extend the 60 to shields instead of the 20


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(18 Oct 2020, 7:51 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]Thanks, I couldn't remember what was said before Covid - I think it was confirmed a while back that some of them won't be going on the 93/94 now.

Current PVR's for the services mentioned above:

6/6A/12/12A - PVR 9
57 - PVR 5
13/25 Newcastle - PVR 7

6149 - 6161 = 13

Other than the ones above - is there any other services which could require deckers?

The 49 I think would be a good shout for deckers I think with the 12 Streetlites being reallocated to the 13/25/28/28A, the 11reg Versas that have had euro 6 mods would then move over to Riverside for the 6/6A/12/12A with the Citaros then withdrawn.

(18 Oct 2020, 7:51 pm)Michael wrote [ -> ]Thanks, I couldn't remember what was said before Covid - I think it was confirmed a while back that some of them won't be going on the 93/94 now.

Current PVR's for the services mentioned above:

6/6A/12/12A - PVR 9
57 - PVR 5
13/25 Newcastle - PVR 7

6149 - 6161 = 13

Other than the ones above - is there any other services which could require deckers?

Not really, can't see them going on the 57 either tbh - is it busy enough for deckers? The DFDS shuttles will need something newer at some point though, so maybe an opportunity there?

(18 Oct 2020, 8:51 pm)Malarkey wrote [ -> ]The 49 I think would be a good shout for deckers I think with the 12 Streetlites being reallocated to the 13/25/28/28A, the 11reg Versas that have had euro 6 mods would then move over to Riverside for the 6/6A/12/12A with the Citaros then withdrawn.

They'd need to be low height deckers, due to going under the same bridge in Dunston as the X30. Not sure the 49 qualifies for deckers either, good loadings on singles, but doubles, don't think so.

(18 Oct 2020, 8:51 pm)Malarkey wrote [ -> ]The 49 I think would be a good shout for deckers I think with the 12 Streetlites being reallocated to the 13/25/28/28A, the 11reg Versas that have had euro 6 mods would then move over to Riverside for the 6/6A/12/12A with the Citaros then withdrawn.

Gateshead Council has just funded the Euro 6 SCRTs for 8319-24 to be used on services 28/A - so no plans for them to move.