(02 Sep 2021, 11:00 pm)JP6004 wrote It's not put up or shut up. People are going to peeved either way. But if changes arent made to address the CAZ, this will be of detriment to the whole network. Just some people arent able to grasp with the reasoning. Yes the average Joe bloggs will see a backward step, but I believe the refurb is trying to offset some of the negativity.....although the USBs on the versas haven't been installed yet

It's exactly what it is. By suggesting that the alternative is a lot worse, you're telling people to put up with it and shut up about it.

The overwhelming majority of people travelling aren't enthusiasts and have no interest in the bus, other than to get them from A to B. They don't need to grasp the reasoning, and will only acknowledge the end result to them.

(03 Sep 2021, 8:26 am)streetdeckfan wrote Don't forget, even the likes of the New Routemaster are getting on for 10 years old now! I'm sure you wouldn't complain if you got a refurbished one of those!

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I’d be happy to take them unrefurbished! Nice quiet smooth hybrid drive, quick boarding/alighting and NSA*, all you really need! Perfect! 

*iBus system guts would need switched out for our NSA type controller, granted.

(03 Sep 2021, 9:29 am)ne14ne1 wrote I’d be happy to take them unrefurbished! Nice quiet smooth hybrid drive, quick boarding/alighting and NSA*, all you really need! Perfect! 

*iBus system guts would need switched out for our NSA type controller, granted.

Unfortunatly  the pandemic has put pay to new vehicles this year. I'm sure the original intention was to dispose of all the Mercs except for those on the 4 and some of the oldest Versas and replace them with new vehicles many of which might of ended up in Sunderland. GNE has had to juggle it's fleet around in order to place Euro 6 buses on it's Newcastle services. Yes certain buses can be upgraded to euro 6 but they will only do the ones they think have more than just a couple of years more life left in them.

How will the caz be enforced? ANPR? Will the council cross reference all regs to what is euro 6?

I do wonder how the CAZ is going to effect Metro Replacements. Big line closure through Newcastle City Centre, sorry nobody can supply buses unless we take all our front line vehicles off service work on a Saturday, unlucky Nexus.

I've always wondered about older vehicles being allocated to less popular routes.
It's almost like operators are giving up on it and are going through the motions.

What if (and its a big what if)? An operator was able to justify a business case to grow a route and to do so by allocating new vehicles to it.
Almost like a pump prime of frequency and a new allocation of vehicles. 
I'm trying to think of an example of a route left to rot and maybe because its close to my heart - but the 71 is the one jumping out.
It went from an allocation of brand new 51 plate Presidents on the 21a to T reg acquired darts when the 71 was launched in 2006.
If that route was launched with a brand new 56 plate Scania or even a 55 plate Solar - would the 71 have been a success? Couple it with some marketing, advertising and something to soften the fact fares doubled overnight... 

We keep seeing that 'experimental' services aren't a success. Why? Is it pricing? Frequency? Timetables? Connections? Something else - such as the vehicle type? Or a combination?

(03 Sep 2021, 12:41 pm)Andreos1 wrote I've always wondered about older vehicles being allocated to less popular routes.
It's almost like operators are giving up on it and are going through the motions.

What if (and its a big what if)? An operator was able to justify a business case to grow a route and to do so by allocating new vehicles to it.
Almost like a pump prime of frequency and a new allocation of vehicles. 
I'm trying to think of an example of a route left to rot and maybe because its close to my heart - but the 71 is the one jumping out.
It went from an allocation of brand new 51 plate Presidents on the 21a to T reg acquired darts when the 71 was launched in 2006.
If that route was launched with a brand new 56 plate Scania or even a 55 plate Solar - would the 71 have been a success? Couple it with some marketing, advertising and something to soften the fact fares doubled overnight... 

We keep seeing that 'experimental' services aren't a success. Why? Is it pricing? Frequency? Timetables? Connections? Something else - such as the vehicle type? Or a combination?

Didn't GNE do that with the Town End Farm 36? Just ended up as a bus war between them and Stagecoach, of course might have had a different outcome on an uncontested route.

(03 Sep 2021, 12:41 pm)Andreos1 wrote We keep seeing that 'experimental' services aren't a success. Why? Is it pricing? Frequency? Timetables? Connections? Something else - such as the vehicle type? Or a combination?

I don't necessarily think vehicle type matters that much, but I think Pricing, Frequency, Timetabling  and Connections certainly play a huge part.

As for the 'Something Else', I would suggest that, in some cases, the experiment has not been allocated a sufficient period of time to yield the results desired by the operator. For a service to be successful, I think you have to build up some sort of capital with whomever your passengers are. A start-up business is usually required  to have a five-year plan in place to secure loans or investment. Part of that plan will assume that growth is achieved on a year-by-year basis and, perhaps, for the first couple of years, breaking even is the best you can hope for as you grow your business while, in years three to five, you will be able to turn a profit  It takes time. For me, a bus service should be no different. I think it is rather arrogant for an operator to presume any new service should be an instant success. Passengers are not going to flock from their cars to use tbe new service if, in all likelyhood, it is likely to be cancelled due to perceived low usage. Unless the new service is carrying no-one, it should be given a chance to grow. That growth may take more than six months or a year, it may take either two or three years and, by that time, the experiment may have ended.

(03 Sep 2021, 11:05 am)ian foster wrote Unfortunatly  the pandemic has put pay to new vehicles this year. I'm sure the original intention was to dispose of all the Mercs except for those on the 4 and some of the oldest Versas and replace them with new vehicles many of which might of ended up in Sunderland. GNE has had to juggle it's fleet around in order to place Euro 6 buses on it's Newcastle services. Yes certain buses can be upgraded to euro 6 but they will only do the ones they think have more than just a couple of years more life left in them.

yeah that’s exactly what we were saying.

(03 Sep 2021, 12:41 pm)Andreos1 wrote I've always wondered about older vehicles being allocated to less popular routes.
It's almost like operators are giving up on it and are going through the motions.

What if (and its a big what if)? An operator was able to justify a business case to grow a route and to do so by allocating new vehicles to it.
Almost like a pump prime of frequency and a new allocation of vehicles. 

Isn't that basically what the Kick Start scheme was back in mid 2000s?  Pretty sure that led to the Stagecoach Newcastle X47 revisions and brand new MANs at the time - think it also underpinned some of the first real branding in 2006 on the GNE Sunderland routes (26/36, 29/39, 33/42, X2/X8, 56 and the Washington locals I think) though IIRC the allocations were repaints rather than new vehicles.  I think a number of those outlasted the initial funding in some form but all (?) have gradually been eroded with the X47 seeing a frequency cut and random allocation and most of those initial 2006 branded services in Sunderland no longer in existence except the 56 maybe?

(03 Sep 2021, 12:41 pm)Andreos1 wrote I've always wondered about older vehicles being allocated to less popular routes.
It's almost like operators are giving up on it and are going through the motions.

What if (and its a big what if)? An operator was able to justify a business case to grow a route and to do so by allocating new vehicles to it.

Unless there a funding mechanism like the old Kickstarter scheme, then due to depreciation, allocating new buses to routes which may just about break even, or run a very small profit will almost certainly mean the route will then run at a substantial loss when the costs of that new bus are factored in to actual routes costings.

It's more sensible to take a midlife bus, smarten it up with WiFi, USB etc and then do a marketing push as by that stage in a vehicles life it should just be the running costs which need paying, making a route more viable.

I will be interested in what Stagecoach do with their older buses. I think short term some of the 64 plate enviros from could be swapped for the man Alexander 300s and possibly Teesside getting some of the older Enviro 400 again. No doubt Hartlepool will get the awful Manviro 200 or possibly some of the mans as well.

Are any of stagecoach buses Euro 6

Yes quite a few are

Why dont they get second hand buses to replace all old vehicles like over stagecoach fleet do why can't stagecoach north east do that?

(09 Sep 2021, 9:16 pm)glen wrote Why dont they get second hand buses to replace all old vehicles like over stagecoach fleet do why can't stagecoach north east do that?

Depends on whether there's actually any second-hand buses to bring in to do the replacement.

There's been very few deliveries to Stagecoach over the last year, so new buses are very much at a premium.  This in turn means that operators are having to keep hold of their slightly older vehicles and continue using them, which in turn means no vehicles available for cascade to other operators.

How soon this situation changes will depend upon how soon any operator has enough money to buy the new buses!

(10 Sep 2021, 8:19 am)Ianthegoon wrote Depends on whether there's actually any second-hand buses to bring in to do the replacement.

There's been very few deliveries to Stagecoach over the last year, so new buses are very much at a premium.  This in turn means that operators are having to keep hold of their slightly older vehicles and continue using them, which in turn means no vehicles available for cascade to other operators.

How soon this situation changes will depend upon how soon any operator has enough money to buy the new buses!

Exactly that. Newcastle will raid Stockton's fleet for MAN ALX300 replacements, and Sunderland or Shields  for 36091-4/39674 replacements

Thanks for info mate

What's gonna happen to Metro replacement in Newcastle when this clean air zone happen

(10 Sep 2021, 11:33 am)Train8261 wrote What's gonna happen to Metro replacement in Newcastle when this clean air zone happen

Special dispensation I would wager

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...t-21537127

Looking at this article your going to have to be very unlucky to gat a "fine " for driving in the clean air zone with all the exceptions to the rule!

(11 Sep 2021, 7:24 am)Rob44 wrote https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...t-21537127

Looking at this article your going to have to be very unlucky to gat a "fine " for driving in the clean air zone with all the exceptions to the rule!

Yup, watered down to the max.

The idea behind the scheme is good, but ultimately it has ended up whereby only buses, coaches and HGVs are held to the highest of standards. In a vein attempt to retain votes, Councillors opposed any inclusion of the private car, which I believe was in the initial proposal.

So you're basically fine to have a street congested with 15 year old diesel cars, but if a bus operator dares to send a Euro 5 bus in, they're slapped with a fine.

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(03 Sep 2021, 8:26 am)streetdeckfan wrote Well, if that's the case then I'd happily take one of the B5Hs over a Streetlite! They're so much nicer.

I hope they don't remove the hybrid system on any more of them as it's my favourite part of using them! I find it quite fun trying to guess when the diesel engine is going to kick in.This is why there needs to be less focus on the age of vehicles! If a 10 year old vehicle is more comfortable, reliable and of an equivalent or higher specification than a 4 year old vehicle, that would definitely be considered an upgrade!

Don't forget, even the likes of the New Routemaster are getting on for 10 years old now! I'm sure you wouldn't complain if you got a refurbished one of those!

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I'd happily take a Volvo Olympian Palatine II over most of the modern stuff haha!

(02 Sep 2021, 10:45 pm)Adrian wrote Consett to Newcastle has to main a strategic corridor for Newcastle, especially when they have an MP who believes in fantasy and the possibility of the Metro coming to Consett. The more GNE can do to prove that is not required and in fact they have a top class bus network, it can only benefit their business. I personally believe that a Consett to Newcastle direct rail link is complete pie in the sky, but if the end result would decimate the business in the area, I would not be taking any chances.

And this is the same argument I've been trying to get across for Arriva's Blyth & Ashington operations given what's happening up that way!

Okay, the fleet issues are another thing (some are good, some aren't good). But they could easily make simple improvements to the network.

(11 Sep 2021, 8:24 am)Adrian wrote Yup, watered down to the max.

The idea behind the scheme is good, but ultimately it has ended up whereby only buses, coaches and HGVs are held to the highest of standards. In a vein attempt to retain votes, Councillors opposed any inclusion of the private car, which I believe was in the initial proposal.

So you're basically fine to have a street congested with 15 year old diesel cars, but if a bus operator dares to send a Euro 5 bus in, they're slapped with a fine.

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In fairness, the North East is the poorest region in the North East. Having a tax which mostly affects poor people who can't afford anything more expensive is extremely unfair. It's alright in somewhere like London as it has an expansive public transport whereas up here it's not

Most the highest emissions in Newcastle were in spots where cars can't even drive down anyway or there's very few of them like Percy Street so they're not the cause of the high emissions mostly in Newcastle.

https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/sites/defau...R_2020.pdf - Data here. For example the highest in Newcastle (excluding one on the Coast Road (DT81)) is DT65 which is Blackett Street / Old Eldon Sq and there's only one thing which can be blamed there and it's why they're getting the charge.

(11 Sep 2021, 11:11 am)Storx wrote In fairness, the North East is the poorest region in the North East. Having a tax which mostly affects poor people who can't afford anything more expensive is extremely unfair. It's alright in somewhere like London as it has an expansive public transport whereas up here it's not

Most the highest emissions in Newcastle were in spots where cars can't even drive down anyway or there's very few of them like Percy Street so they're not the cause of the high emissions mostly in Newcastle.

https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/sites/defau...R_2020.pdf - Data here. For example the highest in Newcastle (excluding one on the Coast Road (DT81)) is DT65 which is Blackett Street / Old Eldon Sq and there's only one thing which can be blamed there and it's why they're getting the charge. 

I've made a similar point in the past.

For all the positives there may closing Blackett Street, its simply going to increase emissions elsewhere in the town.

Having buses shadow and follow each other to/from the same places or down route corridors can be managed by the operators. Probably a lot easier and efficient doing that, than reallocating and repainting buses to suit.
They may also realise that not everyone needs to be in the town, don't work in the town or lives in the town.

(11 Sep 2021, 11:16 am)Andreos1 wrote I've made a similar point in the past.

For all the positives there may closing Blackett Street, its simply going to increase emissions elsewhere in the town.

Having buses shadow and follow each other to/from the same places or down route corridors can be managed by the operators. Probably a lot easier and efficient doing that, than reallocating and repainting buses to suit.
They may also realise that not everyone needs to be in the town, don't work in the town or lives in the town.

Aye your right, the Market Street ones are close second. Mind it would help if we didn't have buses crossing the Tyne Bridge / Redheugh Bridge travelling to a bus stations at the North of the city surprisingly through the centre.

I know it's a big cost for the council by having a bus station at the South end of the city but having one around Pilgrim Street could make massive changes, you could even redirect some of the Stagecoach buses to serve the bus station and get straight out the city. There's no reason why the 1, 30, 31, 36, 62, 63 etc need to go anywhere near the centre where pedestrians are and could avoid it via the Central Motorway / Central Station.

Similar the emission savings that could be made having all the GNE Tyne Bridge services serving it would be massive. You'd pretty much have Market Street free of buses bar the Westgate Road services (and even those could go via John Dobson Street / Percy Street or the Central Station).

(11 Sep 2021, 11:31 am)Storx wrote Aye your right, the Market Street ones are close second. Mind it would help if we didn't have buses crossing the Tyne Bridge / Redheugh Bridge travelling to a bus stations at the North of the city surprisingly through the centre.

I know it's a big cost for the council by having a bus station at the South end of the city but having one around Pilgrim Street could make massive changes, you could even redirect some of the Stagecoach buses to serve the bus station and get straight out the city. There's no reason why the 1, 30, 31, 36, 62, 63 etc need to go anywhere near the centre where pedestrians are and could avoid it via the Central Motorway / Central Station.

Similar the emission savings that could be made having all the GNE Tyne Bridge services serving it would be massive. You'd pretty much have Market Street free of buses bar the Westgate Road services (and even those could go via John Dobson Street / Percy Street or the Central Station).

Stage coach wont pay fees to use bus stations if pass example are to be used

"There's no reason why the 1, 30, 31, 36, 62, 63 etc need to go anywhere near the centre where pedestrians are and could avoid it via the Central Motorway / Central Station."

Because very few passengers are travelling the full route? People are catching them from their respective sides of the city to get in and out of the city centre. Saying these services don't need to stop in the city centre is like suggesting the X21 doesn't bother with Durham and Chester Le street.

(11 Sep 2021, 4:31 pm)BusLoverMum wrote "There's no reason why the 1, 30, 31, 36, 62, 63 etc need to go anywhere near the centre where pedestrians are and could avoid it via the Central Motorway / Central Station."

Because very few passengers are travelling the full route? People are catching them from their respective sides of the city to get in and out of the city centre. Saying these services don't need to stop in the city centre is like suggesting the X21 doesn't bother with Durham and Chester Le street.

I think you misread that. I meant them stopping at a bus station near Pilgrim Street basically around Worswick Street or Stack to serve the city centre then going around it rather than through the centre.

Meant the centre as the following:
Market Street
Blackett Street
Clayton Street
Grainger Street
Newgate Street

There's way too many buses on all of them and it's where the public are rather than down Mosley Street or Percy Street where there's fewer people around so the pollution isn't as harmful.

Apart from Woodhouse (think it's the name) there's no buses anywhere near the centre in Leeds where people are and it's the same in most cities.