It looks like the DfT are not as forthcoming this time around with regards BRG funding ending in a few weeks time.

We've already seen Gannon and the bus operators claiming reductions of 15% if the funding isn't extended.

My question is....should BRG be extended in it's current form? Should it be scrapped altogether? Is their a realistic short to medium term alternative until a new regulatory system is in place, be that enhanced partnership or franchises.

I think certainty, whatever that may be, is what's needed.

If BRG is extended, imo it needs to lead to an end goal. A bridge to whatever new regulatory system will be in place, weather that be re-regulation, franchising, blanket network support or targeted support to areas that still can't turn a profit. Reform BSOG whilst they're on.

Operators will know by now what's sustainable and what needs putting out of its misery.

A 6 or 12 month kicking the can down the road isn't doing anyone any favours.

How long can you continue to throw money at a private business to generate profits, without an acknowledgement that the current system has completely failed and is dead.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-64736227

No cuts in service at the minute!

Gannon is in a "really positive place".

My God. Non of this is a good news. It's can kicking

(09 Feb 2023, 6:15 pm)Adrian wrote How long can you continue to throw money at a private business to generate profits, without an acknowledgement that the current system has completely failed and is dead.

Arriva and Cheshire West/East Councils have gone some way to answering this question by announcing the closure of their Winsford depot and Macclesfield outstation with all services withdrawn.

Cheshire have always been ahead of the curve with decay of bus services so I expect this to be increasingly common elsewhere in the future.

The closures will see the vast majority of bus services in the towns of Northwich, Winsford, Sandbach & Macclesfield withdrawn. At present there are no proposed replacements though it seems likely something will be forthcoming.

It seems no buyer could be found for the operations. Given D&G (Centrebus) bought Arriva’s Cannock depot in 2020, it’s a safe assumption conversations were had about Cheshire but it looks as it isn’t an attractive proposition for them. It is established that their Cannock purchase has hardly been a roaring success. Given Centrebus (D&G & High Peak) already have some ops in the area it may well be the case they pick up some work. Given their two small Cheshire depots are at capacity and they clearly weren’t interested in a ready built facility in Winsford, I’m not convinced they will pick up much work unless it comes with the security of tendering.

Arriva’s statement is that they have already had talks with both local authorities they operate in with no success. Perhaps the authorities are waiting to see what is picked up commercially before seeing what they can afford to tender.

There are really very little options for other replacement operators. Stagecoach have a tiny presence at the very north of Cheshire but given that franchising in Greater Manchester poses a threat to their Stockport HQ, it’s unlikely a thinly spread punt in Cheshire will be attractive. Chester is a long way to operate Macclesfield buses from. 

A region of around 300’000 people about to loose most of their bus services. As you say, the system has completely failed and dead.

(27 Feb 2023, 10:43 pm)James101 wrote Arriva and Cheshire West/East Councils have gone some way to answering this question by announcing the closure of their Winsford depot and Macclesfield outstation with all services withdrawn.

Cheshire have always been ahead of the curve with decay of bus services so I expect this to be increasingly common elsewhere in the future.

The closures will see the vast majority of bus services in the towns of Northwich, Winsford, Sandbach & Macclesfield withdrawn. At present there are no proposed replacements though it seems likely something will be forthcoming.

It seems no buyer could be found for the operations. Given D&G (Centrebus) bought Arriva’s Cannock depot in 2020, it’s a safe assumption conversations were had about Cheshire but it looks as it isn’t an attractive proposition for them. It is established that their Cannock purchase has hardly been a roaring success. Given Centrebus (D&G & High Peak) already have some ops in the area it may well be the case they pick up some work. Given their two small Cheshire depots are at capacity and they clearly weren’t interested in a ready built facility in Winsford, I’m not convinced they will pick up much work unless it comes with the security of tendering.

Arriva’s statement is that they have already had talks with both local authorities they operate in with no success. Perhaps the authorities are waiting to see what is picked up commercially before seeing what they can afford to tender.

There are really very little options for other replacement operators. Stagecoach have a tiny presence at the very north of Cheshire but given that franchising in Greater Manchester poses a threat to their Stockport HQ, it’s unlikely a thinly spread punt in Cheshire will be attractive. Chester is a long way to operate Macclesfield buses from. 

A region of around 300’000 people about to loose most of their bus services. As you say, the system has completely failed and dead.

Don't agree with it of course, but not surprised at all that they're closing shop down there. The area has been leaking money for years, similar with Arriva Midlands. Cheshire and Staffordshire have always been a bit of a minefield, I know First have totally wrecked the network in Stoke aswell but then I guess that's what happens in affluent areas where people won't be seen on buses.

North Yorkshire is just as bad across the board.

Be interesting to see where the buses end up, hopefully not up here though as there's all old wrecks pretty much.

(28 Feb 2023, 7:24 pm)Storx wrote Don't agree with it of course, but not surprised at all that they're closing shop down there. The area has been leaking money for years, similar with Arriva Midlands. Cheshire and Staffordshire have always been a bit of a minefield, I know First have totally wrecked the network in Stoke aswell but then I guess that's what happens in affluent areas where people won't be seen on buses.

North Yorkshire is just as bad across the board.

Be interesting to see where the buses end up, hopefully not up here though as there's all old wrecks pretty much.

It really is a result of the toxic combination of apathetic authorities and operator. This is surely the end for deregulation? When an entire county can’t sustain a bus service any longer.

There are of course extremely affluent pockets of Cheshire, but towns like Winsford & Northwich are not wealthy areas. Stoke on Trent and Newcastle-under-Lyme are akin to Sunderland and Washington in their populations, ex-industrial base and satellite town set up. Difference is the combined PVR of all operations in the Potteries is less than just Deptford, without even considering Wheatsheaf. 

The Cheshire debacle has highlighted the ignorance of many people in their understanding of bus operators. A change.org to prevent the closures and umpteen comments online for the ‘contract’ to be awarded to someone else. Clearly people don’t realise they have as little power in this as their local Pizza Hut closing down. If Joe Public is already under the impression that buses are franchised, why not pursue the system anyway?

(28 Feb 2023, 10:40 pm)James101 wrote It really is a result of the toxic combination of apathetic authorities and operator. This is surely the end for deregulation? When an entire county can’t sustain a bus service any longer.

There are of course extremely affluent pockets of Cheshire, but towns like Winsford & Northwich are not wealthy areas. Stoke on Trent and Newcastle-under-Lyme are akin to Sunderland and Washington in their populations, ex-industrial base and satellite town set up. Difference is the combined PVR of all operations in the Potteries is less than just Deptford, without even considering Wheatsheaf. 

The Cheshire debacle has highlighted the ignorance of many people in their understanding of bus operators. A change.org to prevent the closures and umpteen comments online for the ‘contract’ to be awarded to someone else. Clearly people don’t realise they have as little power in this as their local Pizza Hut closing down. If Joe Public is already under the impression that buses are franchised, why not pursue the system anyway?

Would it really be much better if those same 'apathetic authorities' had full control though?

(28 Feb 2023, 11:28 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Would it really be much better if those same 'apathetic authorities' had full control though?

Not at all. Local authority priorities change with the wind. Bus provisions should have nationally set metrics like population to frequency rations, access to healthcare etc and managed by regional transit agencies.

(28 Feb 2023, 10:40 pm)James101 wrote It really is a result of the toxic combination of apathetic authorities and operator. This is surely the end for deregulation? When an entire county can’t sustain a bus service any longer.

There are of course extremely affluent pockets of Cheshire, but towns like Winsford & Northwich are not wealthy areas. Stoke on Trent and Newcastle-under-Lyme are akin to Sunderland and Washington in their populations, ex-industrial base and satellite town set up. Difference is the combined PVR of all operations in the Potteries is less than just Deptford, without even considering Wheatsheaf. 

The Cheshire debacle has highlighted the ignorance of many people in their understanding of bus operators. A change.org to prevent the closures and umpteen comments online for the ‘contract’ to be awarded to someone else. Clearly people don’t realise they have as little power in this as their local Pizza Hut closing down. If Joe Public is already under the impression that buses are franchised, why not pursue the system anyway?

One thing that can't be ignored is the relatively decent railway service around there which won't help matters.

It's an awkward area as unless you plow millions and millions of pounds of tax payers money in the area it'll never really work and then again you'll have one bus going to the wrong place on an hourly frequency which isn't useful and people still won't use them and it'll carry around fresh air.

We need a new solution for places like it, what it is I'm not sure. DRT on paper is the answer but so far they haven't worked because they're complicated and confusing to use for Joe Public. It's not unique, North Yorkshire is just as bad and most other rural areas.

(01 Mar 2023, 8:25 am)Storx wrote One thing that can't be ignored is the relatively decent railway service around there which won't help matters.

It's an awkward area as unless you plow millions and millions of pounds of tax payers money in the area it'll never really work and then again you'll have one bus going to the wrong place on an hourly frequency which isn't useful and people still won't use them and it'll carry around fresh air.

We need a new solution for places like it, what it is I'm not sure. DRT on paper is the answer but so far they haven't worked because they're complicated and confusing to use for Joe Public. It's not unique, North Yorkshire is just as bad and most other rural areas.

As a wise man once said, car sized problems require car sized solutions.

If there's not enough passengers to support a bus service, then a DRT system using buses isn't going to work either.

Maybe integrating it into the taxi 'network' would be a better use of resources?

Sent from my SM-F721B using Tapatalk

(01 Mar 2023, 9:12 am)streetdeckfan wrote As a wise man once said, car sized problems require car sized solutions.

If there's not enough passengers to support a bus service, then a DRT system using buses isn't going to work either. 

Maybe integrating it into the taxi 'network' would be a better use of resources?

Sent from my SM-F721B using Tapatalk

There will be enough passengers though. Why wouldn't there be in a growing population?

(01 Mar 2023, 9:12 am)streetdeckfan wrote As a wise man once said, car sized problems require car sized solutions.

If there's not enough passengers to support a bus service, then a DRT system using buses isn't going to work either.

Maybe integrating it into the taxi 'network' would be a better use of resources?

Sent from my SM-F721B using Tapatalk

To be fair DRT could probably work with taxis, if there's 2 people from one house going to the hospital and 1 from another at another village on the way just chuck them in the same taxi and give them discounted fares. If it gets busier than upgrade to breadvans, if it gets busier upgrade to minibuses or whatever.

Like personally I wouldn't care if at 3am after I've had a few drinks I got on a minibus by my local cab company and had to pop around a few houses on the way back but the fare is half the price. It's certainly better than waiting for an hour then paying an arm and a leg for the privilege.

There's definitely space for something in the middle, surprised it hasn't been done already tbh. Be ideal for works services and scholar services in rural areas.

I see the BSIP funding can now be used to support existing services.

https://www.route-one.net/news/bsip-fund...-services/

(07 Jun 2023, 8:49 am)citaro5284 wrote I see the BSIP funding can now be used to support existing services.

https://www.route-one.net/news/bsip-fund...-services/

if approval from the Department for Transport (DfT) is gained. 

Reckon operators can get some funding for some new begging bowls when they're on?
The old one must be worn out by now.

(07 Jun 2023, 11:24 am)Andreos1 wrote Reckon operators can get some funding for some new begging bowls when they're on?
The old one must be worn out by now.

Let's not forget that the BSIP already had a £5bn funding gap, before any authority got a penny of the money. 

It's the age old Tory trick of robbing from Peter to pay Paul.

Must say I disagree with the BSIP being used to fund bus routes, unless there's plans to extend the funding then it's just delaying the issue.

If a bus isn't profitable now, using a once off lump sum for 2 years, isn't going to miraculously change that.

The money would be better spending it making it more attractive and attempting to make the routes profitable naturally.

(01 Mar 2023, 9:12 am)streetdeckfan wrote As a wise man once said, car sized problems require car sized solutions.

If there's not enough passengers to support a bus service, then a DRT system using buses isn't going to work either.

Maybe integrating it into the taxi 'network' would be a better use of resources?

Sent from my SM-F721B using Tapatalk

There's a lot of decent minibuses around now, like the mellor and mercedes ones, in the north east it doesn't seem as bad but in other areas taxi companies are losing out and becoming less common due to things like Uber