(16 Nov 2023, 2:27 pm)xpm wrote I bet Ben is chomping at the bit to put out a disparaging internal memo to be leaked.

Meanwhile - view from the Unite side of the negotiating table.  Some of you may be a bit too young to get the reference.

I must have that liquorice allsorts sweater <3

(16 Nov 2023, 11:15 am)xpm wrote A bit of an overreaction there perhaps, and stupid, really?

Cost of living excluding everything you mention above has caused outgoings for everyone to go up, but GNEs stance is we're not making enough profit (asides the £85 million we made in group).  Things which employees have little control over like gas, electric, petrol/diesel prices, food, etc has all gone up massively - these are essentials - not optional.

Staff buses run from high density driver areas - a lot of drivers areas have no service at all - so that is an essential cost to them.

Employment in an ideal world should be based on mutual respect - not a one way transaction where the employer throws you some bones at the end of the week grudgingly and tries its best to get out of doing so, and tries to find ways to make you work longer for the same pay, and lambast and degrade you at every possible opportunity.

An employer has a responsibility to ensure that none of it's employees are forced to work overtime just to meet their day to day needs.  When overtime does dry up GNE are quite happy to cut off employees like junkies needing their fix with no thought for the help they have given the company, either at short notice, or the fact they rely on the extra to make ends meet (and any manager who says they don't know who those people are, are lying).  I'm not going to even enter into the discussion about children - it's quite clear from what you've written you do not have any, or appreciate any of the ups and downs of family life in that regard.

The guy’s a Tory. Reactionary, stupid and frankly callous opinions are in their DNA, these days. But to deal with the points, GNE may not be to blame for the economic conditions in which we are all living, but any business that will soon be reliant on winning franchises needs to be very careful about alienating most of its staff, without whom they would cease to exist. We’ve seen similar issues play out with the likes of Avanti, who treated its employees with such distain (predating the nationwide industrial disputes) that a huge proportion of their drivers took early retirement and they were left with major shortages and consequently more reliant on drivers making themselves available for rest day working, which many didn’t due to the breakdown of relations between management and staff. This never ending race to the bottom in terms of working conditions has become entrenched in modern economies. Thankfully we have pockets of unionisation helping to keep it in check in certain industries and it needs to expand across more sectors.

(16 Nov 2023, 1:56 pm)TEN 6083 wrote

Update from today


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Is there a possibility that they are now close to an agreement given nothing is being said publicly now? or is the situation just worsening?

(16 Nov 2023, 3:11 pm)Iamtheone8483748 wrote Is there a possibility that they are now close to an agreement given nothing is being said publicly now? or is the situation just worsening?

My reading of that is that at least one side is going to go away and look into something ahead of the planned meeting next week. 

For example Unite may have proposed something which GNE need to go away and run the numbers on?

(16 Nov 2023, 1:14 pm)deanmachine wrote That's not true.

What reason have I got to lie, Dean? My post was factual and is correct.

I have remained very quiet on this forum about the ongoing dispute, and for good reason. As I said yesterday, even the company’s own colleagues aren’t aware of the full facts.

You could, of course, suggest that I am not aware of the full facts. Heck, that may be so. But it is clear that there are some porky pies being told internally - either by Unite or by the company - and colleagues may be believing the wrong party.

It is your choice who you believe.


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(16 Nov 2023, 1:33 pm)mb134 wrote So would you be advocating the bus drivers to look for alternate employment to improve their income? 

Obviously the outcome of that is a shortage of drivers, which is what we've witnessed these past few years.

Making the job unappealing, through poor compensation packages and (allegedly) deteriorating terms and conditions is the fault of the companies, and should probably be a top priority to fix.

I think there needs to be a change of how people view salaries in this country. The amount of comments you see on social media slating the drivers for wanting a better wage because "x workers are only paid £x" is quite sad. There are a decent chunk of people who still view what was deemed a good salary 10-15 years ago as good today - when that's not the case at all.

Yes, if they're in the situation where they need more money, they should look for a job that will pay them more.

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(16 Nov 2023, 2:38 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Since your post as already been ripped apart by others, I'll pick up on this.

Liz Truss did cause our economy to nosedive, no allegedly about it.

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I mainly put the allegedly in just to wind people up!

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(16 Nov 2023, 3:28 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yes, if they're in the situation where they need more money, they should look for a job that will pay them more.

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I give up....

Some drivers must be enjoying what is similar to a furlough scheme that they weren't able to enjoy during Covid - paid to stay off work.

While they're within their rights to strike and ask for better pay and conditions, having a permanent strike is way over the top and is treating the passengers terribly, in my opinion.

Nor will it help the drivers in the long run, because it will only mean their customer base shrinks as people make alternative arrangements, and/or more services will be cut to help pay for pay increases. Inflation coming down doesn't help their argument either.

(16 Nov 2023, 6:04 pm)tvd wrote Some drivers must be enjoying what is similar to a furlough scheme that they weren't able to enjoy during Covid - paid to stay off work.

While they're within their rights to strike and ask for better pay and conditions, having a permanent strike is way over the top and is treating the passengers terribly, in my opinion.

Nor will it help the drivers in the long run, because it will only mean their customer base shrinks as people make alternative arrangements, and/or more services will be cut to help pay for pay increases. Inflation coming down doesn't help their argument either.

Inflation going down makes absolutely no difference in the current dispute as prices rose by 10% over the past year, due to inflation, and are still rising - albeit by less than before.

All the inflation figure means is that, when it comes negotiating the next pay rise, the percentage increase will be less than it is now, providing inflation continues to fall.

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(16 Nov 2023, 7:56 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Inflation going down makes absolutely no difference in the current dispute as prices rose by 10% over the past year, due to inflation, and are still rising - albeit by less than before.

All the inflation figure means is that, when it comes negotiating the next pay rise, the percentage increase will be less than it is now, providing inflation continues to fall.

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Tbf it'll have the opposite effect as if inflation is coming down then the second year above inflation increase is worthless. Believe it's predicted to be around 2% in July 2024 aswell.

This pay increase is from July 2023, so that's the only important inflation figure relevant for the person you're replying to.

I’m intrigued how escalation leverage will work. Unite themselves call it the nuclear options, but some observations.

They target shareholders, the wider group is returning a solid profit. Sharon Graham turning up with a placard and some reps outside an office in Canada would cause bemusement.

They target customers and suppliers. It’s unlikely an already stretched industry supplier network will boycott GNE. It’s unlikely a PTE like Nexus will suddenly stop dealing with GNE, partly as there’s no real alternative in some cases.

From a people perspective I’m intrigued how it plays out. We moved on from a union model to a colleague forum model last year and I personally find a more local approach more beneficial…from both sides

(15 Nov 2023, 9:56 pm)Dan wrote Oh, absolutely. Each individual has a different motivation.

Some will genuinely be on strike because they feel the pay offer isn’t acceptable, others are on strike because they have seen how ‘scabs’ have been treated by their colleagues, and however unlikely you deem the scenario to be, it is the truth that some are using this as an opportunity for ‘free holiday’.

Most of us on this forum are bus users, are directly employed by the company, or have friends/family who are employed by the company. This means that the strike is affecting almost all of us on this forum. One thing that we can all agree on is that the company and Unite need to resolve the dispute as soon as possible.

(16 Nov 2023, 8:04 am)F114TML wrote Yup. One of the drivers at our depot went in otherwise he would've defaulted on his debts. Not only is he nearly universally hated, you can get yourself on the hitlist for even talking to him.

Hell, after the first strike we did, everyone who wasn't on strike got blanked, including the engineers and the woman who runs the canteen.

Without getting into a debate of differences of opinion, I'm still surprised that those who cross picket lines, always seem to be shocked that it's not rosey in the garden for them after the action is over. I don't know whether it's down to a lack of understanding on what being in a member of a Trade Union is about, or because they see it as some kind of insurance policy, that is only there to bail them out when if they screw up? 

The whole point of a Union is supposed to be a collective voice of workers that fights to improve pay and conditions for their members, amongst other things. All key decisions are that of members (via votes) fellow members, hence where the tension arises when people go against that majority decision. You're not just going against that decision by going to work, but you're always seeing as helping the employer conduct their business and generate revenue too. In GNE's case, this may be someone driving a scholars bus that wouldn't otherwise run, and therefore GNE wouldn't be paid for operating that contract. That may not even be the case, but you can't control perceptions.

I've seen similar to the examples F114TML quotes, but I don't think there's ever going to be a solution to it, unless a Government legislates that you have to smile and say hello to every colleague. In my experience, I find that the core of the issue is not always that someone has crossed the picket and 'helped the employer out', but it's that I've never known a strike-breaker to then write to HR and forfeit any gains that are won by the Union as a result of the dispute.

For those with individual circumstances, such as financial issues, most Unions are getting more organised to work against the rift of anti-strike laws in the UK. They've developed systems to overcome the 50% ballot threshold (which by Tory views, makes it more democratic!), and they're building and utilising action funds to ensure that their members aren't bankrupted for fighting back. As such, most Unions now operate hardship funds of some sort, allowing members can apply to for (further) support. Reps never want to see members cross a picket line or come out of a Union, and I know I've supported members with this in my own union during industrial action. I'm not sure what the process is in Unite, but given their size and financial power, I'd be extremely surprised if one doesn't exist. 

As much as there's been jibes about the Union paying members strike pay, people using it as a free holiday etc, it's ultimately the members own money that is supporting this action, in an attempt to level the playing field. It's their National Executive's call to spend that on strike pay, just as it is GNE's to spend money on paint or stickers, as is often alleged on here! Without it strike pay, I suspect GNE would have bulldozed over the Union by now and simply imposed the offer and changes, in a similar vein that Feetham tried to get away with in Manchester. 

To conclude, whilst strike action is always a last resort for Unions, employers often neglect to recognise the long-lasting damage that prolonged action does to workplace morale and relationships, not to mention industrial relations. Settling a pay claim and getting everyone back to work is only the starting point; the real work starts after that.

(16 Nov 2023, 11:15 am)xpm wrote Employment in an ideal world should be based on mutual respect - not a one way transaction where the employer throws you some bones at the end of the week grudgingly and tries its best to get out of doing so, and tries to find ways to make you work longer for the same pay, and lambast and degrade you at every possible opportunity.

An employer has a responsibility to ensure that none of it's employees are forced to work overtime just to meet their day to day needs.  When overtime does dry up GNE are quite happy to cut off employees like junkies needing their fix with no thought for the help they have given the company, either at short notice, or the fact they rely on the extra to make ends meet (and any manager who says they don't know who those people are, are lying).  I'm not going to even enter into the discussion about children - it's quite clear from what you've written you do not have any, or appreciate any of the ups and downs of family life in that regard.

Absolutely, and this is the real issue right across the UK. Workers, typically in low-paid or unsecure work, are made to feel like their employer is doing them a favour by working them into an early grave. It's no coincidence that pay and conditions have worsened with the decline in trade union membership over decades, nor is it a coincidence that pay has gone up in a couple of years of Unions standing strong and fighting back.

Employers in the bus industry, much like a lot of the retail sector, create an overtime culture. It's addictive and hard to unhook yourself from that, when you see a decline in take-home pay that you've since become used to, especially when you naturally end up budgeting against working that overtime. We should be looking to reduce what is seen as a normal working week in the UK, not increase it with the constant dangling of the carrot. 

(16 Nov 2023, 5:16 pm)Ambassador wrote I give up....

Me too. Seems that even Lee Anderson has a pseudonym on this forum these days.

(16 Nov 2023, 8:56 pm)Ambassador wrote I’m intrigued how escalation leverage will work. Unite themselves call it the nuclear options, but some observations.

They target shareholders, the wider group is returning a solid profit. Sharon Graham turning up with a placard and some reps outside an office in Canada would cause bemusement.

They target customers and suppliers. It’s unlikely an already stretched industry supplier network will boycott GNE. It’s unlikely a PTE like Nexus will suddenly stop dealing with GNE, partly as there’s no real alternative in some cases.

From a people perspective I’m intrigued how it plays out. We moved on from a union model to a colleague forum model last year and I personally find a more local approach more beneficial…from both sides

They'll naturally keep most of the cards close to their chest, I'd imagine, but I'd see it similar options to what you've suggested being played out. Targeting of shareholders, customers (not Joe Public) and suppliers, and pretty much anyone connected to the business.

Interested that you've moved to a colleague forum model. Is that alongside relations with your Trade Unions? I'm assuming you haven't gone through statutory derecognition! Without going too off-topic, I've been a member of both, although elected to a colleague forum (works council as a TU rep). Employers tend to like colleague forums better, but the rights an independent trade union has in comparison, usually makes them look rather toothless.

(16 Nov 2023, 9:18 pm)Adrian wrote They'll naturally keep most of the cards close to their chest, I'd imagine, but I'd see it similar options to what you've suggested being played out. Targeting of shareholders, customers (not Joe Public) and suppliers, and pretty much anyone connected to the business.

Interested that you've moved to a colleague forum model. Is that alongside relations with your Trade Unions? I'm assuming you haven't gone through statutory derecognition! Without going too off-topic, I've been a member of both, although elected to a colleague forum (works council as a TU rep). Employers tend to like colleague forums better, but the rights an independent trade union has in comparison, usually makes them look rather toothless.

We haven’t yet no, the Union have been broadly supportive. In all honesty, membership was low and it became more individual interests being pushed forward and they were a nightmare to deal with. I think the Union were quite pleased to not have to get involved from a central perspective 

A colleague forum approach would be a good approach for GNE, on top of the formal union piece. I genuinely find you get less agenda and more true engagement. Colleagues appear less reluctant to engage as it keeps politics out of it too

(16 Nov 2023, 3:28 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yes, if they're in the situation where they need more money, they should look for a job that will pay them more.

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Why do you think we have a drivers shortage

(16 Nov 2023, 10:41 pm)Unber43 wrote Why do you think we have a drivers shortage

Because they're doing what they should be doing and looking for a higher paid job instead of begging for more money

(17 Nov 2023, 9:11 am)streetdeckfan wrote Because they're doing what they should be doing and looking for a higher paid job instead of begging for more money

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just being obtuse.

They are not begging for money - they are asking to be compensated with a fair amount for the work that they do, the same as any employee would do. 

When they started the role the salary might have been enough to cover their living expenses, however, with inflation and other increasing costs this may no longer be the case so they are simply asking the company to review their pay. So far, the efforts on either side haven't been enough, so they've withdrawn their labour.

(17 Nov 2023, 9:11 am)streetdeckfan wrote Because they're doing what they should be doing and looking for a higher paid job instead of begging for more money

So if they're all leaving for better paid jobs, what does that say about the compensation offered by bus companies? 

Obviously other companies/industries are valuing bus drivers and their skills higher than the bus companies are.

(17 Nov 2023, 9:11 am)streetdeckfan wrote Because they're doing what they should be doing and looking for a higher paid job instead of begging for more money

Out of interest, do you still use the bus? I know a while back you indicated you were tempted to purchase an electric vehicle of some kind; did this ever transpire?

(17 Nov 2023, 2:55 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Out of interest, do you still use the bus? I know a while back you indicated you were tempted to purchase an electric vehicle of some kind; did this ever transpire?

I heard they couldn't afford one. But hasn't gone and got a new job with a bigger wage. 
Don't know how true it is.

(17 Nov 2023, 2:55 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Out of interest, do you still use the bus? I know a while back you indicated you were tempted to purchase an electric vehicle of some kind; did this ever transpire?

Yes, I do in fact still use the bus.
As for the EV, it's still on the cards but I'm probably going to end up moving house first due to some completely insufferable neighbours! It's got to the point where I've even considered renting temporarily!

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(17 Nov 2023, 4:24 pm)Andreos1 wrote I heard they couldn't afford one. But hasn't gone and got a new job with a bigger wage. 
Don't know how true it is.

On the contrary actually, I dropped down to part time on my main job and took up another lower paid job just to get out the house (and have less responsibility). As much as I like the benefits of WFH, 10 years of it was enough.

(17 Nov 2023, 8:44 pm)streetdeckfan wrote On the contrary actually, I dropped down to part time on my main job and took up another lower paid job just to get out the house (and have less responsibility). As much as I like the benefits of WFH, 10 years of it was enough.

Could you not have done WFW a few days a week?

(17 Nov 2023, 8:44 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yes, I do in fact still use the bus.
As for the EV, it's still on the cards but I'm probably going to end up moving house first due to some completely insufferable neighbours! It's got to the point where I've even considered renting temporarily!

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On the contrary actually, I dropped down to part time on my main job and took up another lower paid job just to get out the house (and have less responsibility). As much as I like the benefits of WFH, 10 years of it was enough.

So I was right about not going for a bigger wage? 

How dare you. 
How dare you have a job that pays less. 
Disgusting.

(17 Nov 2023, 8:49 pm)Unber43 wrote Could you not have done WFW a few days a week?

We haven't had a physical office for many years now, and even if we still had it I wouldn't fancy trekking all the way to Jarrow.

Plus, the lack of responsibility is also nice, I just turn up, do my bit, then leave.

Less working late into the evenings because the clients suddenly decided they wanted the report to be completely different and the boss for some reason won't tell them to GFY.

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(17 Nov 2023, 8:58 pm)Andreos1 wrote So I was right about not going for a bigger wage? 

How dare you. 
How dare you have a job that pays less. 
Disgusting.

I don't know how to say this without sounding like a tory, but frankly I didn't need the extra money.

In fact, I could very easily survive on just the part time second job I have because I don't waste money on unnecessary things like friends and family.

If I did for some reason need more money, I would in fact look for a better paying job, I could probably earn a lot more in the same industry by switching companies, but I choose not to.

(17 Nov 2023, 8:58 pm)streetdeckfan wrote We haven't had a physical office for many years now, and even if we still had it I wouldn't fancy trekking all the way to Jarrow.

Plus, the lack of responsibility is also nice, I just turn up, do my bit, then leave.

Less working late into the evenings because the clients suddenly decided they wanted the report to be completely different and the boss for some reason won't tell them to GFY.

I think you're amazing. You get a lot of stick on here, because you talk sense. Where are you looking at moving to? My dream is to move away from Newcastle, because I hate it. Horrible city.

(17 Nov 2023, 8:58 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't know how to say this without sounding like a tory, but frankly I didn't need the extra money.

In fact, I could very easily survive on just the part time second job I have because I don't waste money on unnecessary things like friends and family.

If I did for some reason need more money, I would in fact look for a better paying job, I could probably earn a lot more in the same industry by switching companies, but I choose not to.

Out of curiosity what industry do you work in?

(17 Nov 2023, 8:44 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yes, I do in fact still use the bus.
As for the EV, it's still on the cards but I'm probably going to end up moving house first due to some completely insufferable neighbours! It's got to the point where I've even considered renting temporarily!

So if all the bus drivers go and get better paid jobs, and you don't want to work from home due to being bored (or whatever), who is going to drive you to work? 

It's a pretty oxymoronic argument to make from your predicament. A lack of bus drivers means a lack of buses. And a lack of buses means people will migrate to other modes of transport thus less passengers. Less passengers means service reductions which, ultimately, restricts your ability to travel freely. So, like strike action, bus drivers seeking better wages elsewhere has the same overall outcome, so why wouldn't you want the people you rely on to be paid better in order to service your needs?   

As for me, well, I very rarely use the bus so neither strike action or a shortage of bus drivers affects me.

(17 Nov 2023, 4:24 pm)Andreos1 wrote I heard they couldn't afford one. But hasn't gone and got a new job with a bigger wage. 
Don't know how true it is.

Whether he can afford it or not doesn't matter to me, personally. However, I am reminded of a quote sometimes attributed to the late, and allegedly great, Margaret Thatcher:

"anyone on a bus over the age of 25 is a failure"

As someone who likes espouse Thatcherite ideologies, I hope he moves on the EV pretty soon otherwise he's going to end up a failure, if he isn't already.

(17 Nov 2023, 9:13 pm)MurdnunoC wrote So if all the bus drivers go and get better paid jobs, and you don't want to work from home due to being bored (or whatever), who is going to drive you to work? 

It's a pretty oxymoronic argument to make from your predicament. A lack of bus drivers means a lack of buses. And a lack of buses means people will migrate to other modes of transport thus less passengers. Less passengers means service reductions which, ultimately, restricts your ability to travel freely. So, like strike action, bus drivers seeking better wages elsewhere has the same overall outcome, so why wouldn't you want the people you rely on to be paid better in order to service your needs?   

As for me, well, I very rarely use the bus so neither strike action or a shortage of bus drivers affects me.


Whether he can afford it or not doesn't matter to me, personally. However, I am reminded of a quote sometimes attributed to the late, and allegedly great, Margaret Thatcher:

"anyone on a bus over the age of 25 is a failure"

As someone who likes espouse Thatcherite ideologies, I hope he moves on the EV pretty soon otherwise he's going to end up a failure, if he isn't already.

Unfortunately I've been a failure for a while now.

Guess I might as well just jump in front of a bus!

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(17 Nov 2023, 9:27 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Unfortunately I've been a failure for a while now.

Guess I might as well just jump in front of a bus!

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You'll to wait between 09.30 and 2.30 and youll only have one chance an hour.

And youll have to travel to Consett