But you could make a similar argument for passenger confusion over the numbering of services 1/1A and X1 in Newcastle and Gateshead.


Do you think people are regularly confused by this arrangement?

(29 Dec 2014, 8:51 pm)MurdnunoC wrote But you could make a similar argument for passenger confusion over the numbering of services 1/1A and X1 in Newcastle and Gateshead.

Do you think people are regularly confused by this arrangement?

Some might be, but they've been like this for awhile now whereas the 36 is a new service and the X36 hasn't been around that long so someone could possibly get them mixed up when the changes first come into affect and part of the reasoning for changing the many variations of the 35's was because some people were getting confused.

(29 Dec 2014, 8:43 pm)Jimmi wrote My beef with the 36 route number is that there is the X36 from Sunderland too which runs to a completely different route which could be confusing to people. I think they went with the 36 as its service number because it is the closest number to 35 but couldn't number as service 34 as there is already a service 34/34A in Chester and this would cause confusion.

They could of kept it as the 35/35A/35B (with the 35C dropped) which is quite confusing, both i would imagine will come under different brands. 
 

Anyone fancy working out all the new PVR's?

Dan has kindly done some already...

Due to the above changes, the PVR of a number of services will decrease:

• 17: PVR - 1
  
  
• 27: PVR - 1
  
  
• 40/41: PVR - 1
  
  
• 56: PVR - 1
  
  
• 82/83: PVR - 1
  
  
• X36: PVR - 1
  

(29 Dec 2014, 9:03 pm)Michael wrote Anyone fancy working out all the new PVR's?

2/2A: PVR 13
17: PVR 9
20/20A: PVR 20
27: PVR 13
33/33A & 39: PVR 10 
35/36: PVR 15
38/238: PVR 5
40/41/80: PVR 8
56: PVR 14
82/82A: PVR 7
X35: PVR 7
X36: PVR 3

(29 Dec 2014, 9:11 pm)Dan wrote 2/2A: PVR 13
17: PVR 9
20/20A: PVR 20
27: PVR 13
33/33A & 39: PVR 10 
35/36: PVR 15
38/238: PVR 5
40/41/80: PVR 8
56: PVR 14
82/82A: PVR 7
X35: PVR 7
X36: PVR 3

Bloody hell Dan, that was quick! 

What do u think the 33/33A/38/39 will use? 

Do would still think the 38/238 will become Simplicity?

With the 33/33A/39 using a mixture of Versa and Cadets? 

I wonder which service (or if both) lose it's Citaros then? 

2A/2C (Silver Arrows)
Current Requirement - 8
New Requirement - 13
Difference - +5

35/35A/etc (Laser)
Current Requirement - 18 (12 Citaro & 6 Solar)
New Requirement - 15
Difference - -3

In addition, the current Prince Bishops PVR is 12, so that needs another 8 buses from somewhere. It's interesting that the 12 laser + 8 silver arrows Citaros add up to 20 mind... 

(29 Dec 2014, 9:20 pm)aureolin wrote In addition, the current Prince Bishops PVR is 12, so that needs another 8 buses from somewhere. It's interesting that the 12 laser + 8 silver arrows Citaros add up to 20 mind... 

Split allocations are, in general, a no-no. Make of that what you will.

Think you need to review your maths, too, mind.  

(29 Dec 2014, 9:24 pm)Dan wrote Split allocations are, in general, a no-no. Make of that what you will.

Think you need to review your maths, too, mind.  

Sorted

I wouldn't normally, but to throw a massive guess, I'd reckon -

20/20A - 20 Citaros (8x Silver Arrows / 12x Laser)
2/2A/42 - 15 Versas (10x SimpliCity / 5x Purple)
35/35A/etc - 15 Solars (3x Laser / 12x Prince Bishops)

(29 Dec 2014, 8:50 pm)Dan wrote Service 83 is withdrawn and partially replaced in the areas where there are the most customers, with the interworking cycle being as follows:

82: Heworth - Donwell - Concord - Barmston (via Spout Lane and Barmston Village Centre) - Biddick - Galleries - Ayton - Rickleton
82A: Rickleton - Harraton - Ayton - Galleries - Biddick - Barmston (via Hertburn Industrial Estate and Barmston Waskerley Road) - Concord
82A: Concord - Barmston (via Hertburn Industrial Estate and Barmston Waskerley Road) - Biddick - Galleries - Ayton - Birtley
82: Birtley - Ayton - Galleries - Biddick - Barmston (via Spout Lane and Barmston Village Centre) - Concord - Donwell - Heworth

This is similar to the current interworking pattern: when an 82 arrives into Birtley, it departs as an 83, following the appropriate route variant in Portobello, Rickleton and Harraton.

Instead of direct via the Felling Bypass, service 82 will now operate via Meresyde and Grange Crescent in Leam Lane, following passenger requests, creating new direct links from this area. Currently there is a 15-minute combined frequency from Concord to Heworth, but this is reduced to a 30-minute frequency. Customers can instead use service 4 which operates every 10 minutes during Monday - Saturday daytimes.

In Birtley, the service will be extended to the new housing estate at Northside, serving Highridge, Blackfell Way and Mount Pleasant Road.

But it's not the case with these changes as the way I read it, 
Rickleton as an example used to/currently get the 83 half hourly to Heworth and half hourly to Birtley. As any normal service does. 
Now the way I read the timetable, passengers in Rickleton can use the 82 from Heworth, Concord, Galleries into Rickleton. 
However there's no 82 in the other direction. Passengers instead have the 82A to Concord or Galleries and no link to Heworth. 
So they can't get to Heworth without a change but they can get from Heworth. 

Should be simplified, 
82: Heworth-Rickleton
82A: Concord-Birtley 
And the same in reverse so an area has the same service number/numbers going to the same places. 

(29 Dec 2014, 9:36 pm)aureolin wrote Sorted

I wouldn't normally, but to throw a massive guess, I'd reckon -

20/20A - 20 Citaros (8x Silver Arrows / 12x Laser)
2/2C/42 - 15 Versas (10x SimpliCity / 5x Purple)
35/35A/etc - 15 Solars (3x Laser / 12x Prince Bishops)

Here's what i think they'll be... 


2/2A will be Citaro
20/20A - Scania L94's 
33/33A/39 - Simpilcity (10 left after the 61 allocation, although only 5 are branded)
35 - Citaro 
36 - Scania's 
38 - Cadet
238 -  East Durham
61 - Simplicity

Remember we also have the spare Crusader citaro, it could move to Deptford as a spare and the 2 spare cadets from Chester-le-street after the 71 goes! 

(29 Dec 2014, 9:36 pm)aureolin wrote Sorted

I wouldn't normally, but to throw a massive guess, I'd reckon -

20/20A - 20 Citaros (8x Silver Arrows / 12x Laser)
2/2C/42 - 15 Versas (10x SimpliCity / 5x Purple)
35/35A/etc - 15 Solars (3x Laser / 12x Prince Bishops)

Still think the new 20/20A will get New Buses in the New Year as a Result of this years Unconfirmed Investment, therefore I think the Solars will end up in Corporate Livery.

(29 Dec 2014, 9:37 pm)Drifter60 wrote But it's not the case with these changes as the way I read it, 
Rickleton as an example used to/currently get the 83 half hourly to Heworth and half hourly to Birtley. As any normal service does. 
Now the way I read the timetable, passengers in Rickleton can use the 82 from Heworth, Concord, Galleries into Rickleton. 
However there's no 82 in the other direction. Passengers instead have the 82A to Concord or Galleries and no link to Heworth. 
So they can't get to Heworth without a change but they can get from Heworth. 

Should be simplified, 
82: Heworth-Rickleton
82A: Concord-Birtley 
And the same in reverse so an area has the same service number/numbers going to the same places. 

The wording on the website is difficult to understand because it's so unnecessarily long-winded. This was probably done to re-assure customers that the 83 service is getting replaced in some form, but it's backfired because it's so complex to understand. The timetable, however, isn't.

I appreciate that one could argue that the numbering is slightly odd given that there is no route variation on the Birtley section now, but this was done because the 82 service continues to Heworth whereas the 82A does not. If the bus went into Birtley and came out as an 82A, when do you change the route number to show that the bus terminates at Heworth and not Concord?

(29 Dec 2014, 9:41 pm)Malarkey wrote Still think the new 20/20A will get New Buses in the New Year as a Result of this years Unconfirmed Investment, therefore I think the Solars will end up in Corporate Livery.

It's just not going to happen. Maybe in the 2015/16 orders, yes, but certainly not in the 2014/15 orders.

Are we confident that 2/2A will be 15 PVR? Just currently Silver Arrows is 8 and SimpliCity 5 so that's only 13. I wouldn't think GNE would go for merging services if it increases PVR by 2?

Re the 82:

Between Heworth and Meresyde, I'm presuming the 82 will follow the route of the Orbit 51 up High Heworth Lane, left at the roundabout past Heworth Grange school and the leisure centre, right at the mini roundabout onto Grange Crescent, left at the next mini roundabout onto Meresyde and follow that up to Lingey Lane.

EDIT: I know the 51 doesn't go onto Lingey Lane. It turns off Meresyde onto Millford.

(29 Dec 2014, 9:48 pm)Adam wrote Re the 82:

Between Heworth and Meresyde, I'm presuming the 82 will follow the route of the Orbit 51 up High Heworth Lane, left at the roundabout past Heworth Grange school and the leisure centre, right at the mini roundabout onto Grange Crescent, left at the next mini roundabout onto Meresyde and follow that up to Lingey Lane.

That's how I would interpret the route.

(29 Dec 2014, 9:46 pm)Dan wrote The wording on the website is difficult to understand because it's so unnecessarily long-winded. This was probably done to re-assure customers that the 83 service is getting replaced in some form, but it's backfired because it's so complex to understand. The timetable, however, isn't.

I appreciate that one could argue that the numbering is slightly odd given that there is no route variation on the Birtley section now, but this was done because the 82 service continues to Heworth whereas the 82A does not. If the bus went into Birtley and came out as an 82A, when do you change the route number to show that the bus terminates at Heworth and not Concord?


It's just not going to happen. Maybe in the 2015/16 orders, yes, but certainly not in the 2014/15 orders.

Might as well spill the beans...  

(29 Dec 2014, 9:52 pm)MurdnunoC wrote That's how I would interpret the route.

It would seem logical as Heworth Grange students from the Washington area would probably use the service as it would stop right outside the door, instead of getting off at Heworth Metro and walking up.

I think these will be the allocations:

2/2A - 15 X Wright Solar (12 X Prince Bishops, 3 X Red Solars [4934, 4935, 4936]).
20/20A - 20 X Mercedes Citaro (12 X Laser, 8 X Silver Arrows, one spare from Crusader).
35/36 - 15 X Wright Solar (6 X Laser, 3 X Fast Cats [5205, 5206, 5207], 6 X Red Solar [4943, 4944, 5201, 5202, 5203, 5204].
33/33A/39 - 10 X Optare Versa (10 X Simplicity).
38 - 3 X Wright Cadets (8272/8273 [from Chester for 4842/4905] and 8271) - branded East Durham.
67/69 - 5 X Purple Optare Versa (8261-8264 to Deptford for the X36, 4944 for 35/36).
238 - 2 X Optare Solo (2 X NexusBus).
X35 - 3 X Wright Merit (8261-8263, 8264 as spare).
X36 - 7 X Wright Solar (4954, 4955, 4973, 4974, 4975, 4976, 5208).

(29 Dec 2014, 9:46 pm)Drifter60 wrote Are we confident that 2/2A will be 15 PVR? Just currently Silver Arrows is 8 and SimpliCity 5 so that's only 13. I wouldn't think GNE would go for merging services if it increases PVR by 2?

As we know, one of the main purposes of these revisions has been to improve the reliability of services in the Sunderland area. This has been achieved by increasing the running time and layover periods. Services 2A/2C currently have 13 minutes layover in total, and service 42 currently has 1 (with recovery time built in at Park Lane). I had therefore expected that the recovery time and layover periods would therefore have to be in excess of 14 minutes, so as to improve reliability.

Therefore, without looking at the timetables, I had expected (quite confidently) that the re-routing via Toward Road instead of via Ryhope Road (for City Centre bound 42s) would add a few minutes on to the running time and immediately eat into the layover period time. It appears that I perhaps overestimated the amount of time the revised route would eat into.

On reflection, having reviewed the timetables, the revised service(s) have 5 minutes layover at each end with recovery time built in at the City Centre. This is actually a decrease in overall layover time, and there is not a great deal of recovery time in the revised timetable either. That said, I can't see Go North East being able to justify a 15 minute layover period at each end of the route to make up the PVR of 15, especially with services 2/2A presumably retaining their through-route for passengers in Washington.

I'd imagine therefore that the PVR will remain the same as present (PVR 13), with the current service 42 benefiting from more layover gained from the current 2A/2C services.

Don't see the point extending the 82 up to Northside. It's 98% car ownership on the new estates (don't ask) and I can't see it attracting new passengers

(29 Dec 2014, 11:19 pm)gtom wrote Don't see the point extending the 82 up to Northside. It's 98% car ownership on the new estates (don't ask) and I can't see it attracting new passengers

But with the amount of first time buyer initiatives and affordable housing, you'd expect to see a lot of young families moving into these estates. I'm not expecting huge crowds to suddenly start using it, but you may start to get a handful of kids/teens using the service. 

I'd looked to move to Northside myself, but the lack of bus services was the key factor in me not moving there. It's a long way to walk uphill in bad weather.

True. Currently the X25 and TB14 serve the outskirts.

Classic ran the 23 up there (pre 184 amalgamation) for a bit for Nexus.

Bus stops and infrastructure have laid there untouched since the early 00s

Surprised to see the 61 going back to a 20 minute frequency on Sundays

I was a little disappointed to see the loss of 29 and 42. However it looks like Silksworth/ tunstall will be over run with 2 2a 12 33 33a 35a 38 39

(30 Dec 2014, 12:23 am)MrFozz wrote Surprised to see the 61 going back to a 20 minute frequency on Sundays

It also means 60/61 interworking again on Sunday's. Little bit irrating as when they previously interworked both were Drifter branded. Wonder what the service will use on Sunday's? Drifter StreetLites? 

(30 Dec 2014, 2:47 am)Drifter60 wrote It also means 60/61 interworking again on Sunday's. Little bit irrating as when they previously interworked both were Drifter branded. Wonder what the service will use on Sunday's? Drifter StreetLites? 

I imagine it will be the Drifter StreetLite's so the 60 passengers still get their advertised features (WiFi, next stop announcements etc.) and also the StreetLite's are newer.

I know what you mean about them being on the 60/61, both operating along part of the same route with the 61 using the wrong branded bus.

(30 Dec 2014, 7:27 am)Jimmi wrote I imagine it will be the Drifter StreetLite's so the 60 passengers still get their advertised features (WiFi, next stop announcements etc.) and also the StreetLite's are newer.

I know what you mean about them being on the 60/61, both operating along part of the same route with the 61 using the wrong branded bus.

I could use the wi-fi when I goto Church on a Sunday morning

(30 Dec 2014, 8:59 am)MrFozz wrote I could use the wi-fi when I goto Church on a Sunday morning

Providing they don't turn it off when it's on the 61 (I think they can do that).

(30 Dec 2014, 9:05 am)Jimmi wrote Providing they don't turn it off when it's on the 61 (I think they can do that).

Didn't know that...

Would the drivers be concerned about whether wi-fi is on or not on 61's, would just be a faff on turning it on and off...

I am gutted we are losing the Mercs on Sundays, Citaros are my favourite bus, and getting StreetShites instead