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(24 Nov 2014, 8:08 pm)Acky81 wrote To be fair Michael I'd rather keep the 29 and 42
(25 Nov 2014, 9:33 am)idiot wrote Let's face it GNE have done it this way so they get what they want and the results they want. There not stupid. It's merely so they can say well we asked customers.
(25 Nov 2014, 10:04 am)DavidP wrote and I thought it was just me who was that cynical about these sort of "consultations".Thats pretty much how I have understood it...
If the changes are to be introduced in January 2015 as suggested on other posts then surely the draft timetables, duty schedules and the various documents that need to be submitted to VOSA must already have been worked on?
(25 Nov 2014, 9:33 am)idiot wrote Let's face it GNE have done it this way so they get what they want and the results they want. There not stupid. It's merely so they can say well we asked customers.
(25 Nov 2014, 10:04 am)DavidP wrote and I thought it was just me who was that cynical about these sort of "consultations".
If the changes are to be introduced in January 2015 as suggested on other posts then surely the draft timetables, duty schedules and the various documents that need to be submitted to VOSA must already have been worked on?
(25 Nov 2014, 10:08 am)marxistafozzski wrote Thats pretty much how I have understood it...
GNE say 'We want your views' when really what they are saying is 'This is what is going to happen'
I think face to face consultations could work, if it is possible go out into communities and hold public forums, shit like that
(25 Nov 2014, 10:08 am)Andreos1 wrote Of course they will have been - even if just in draft form.
Not only that, but any business case will have been worked out and potential fleet allocations, rebranding/repainting schedules etc too.
(25 Nov 2014, 11:14 am)Dan wrote Idiot, I agree with parts of your post...I can accept that Dan and GNE cant keep everyone happy all the time...
Go North East is not stupid: this is why the company planned to undertake a consultation, enabling them to gather feedback from customers. As Andreos1 has correctly stated; without customers, there is no business. This is why it is vital for all bus operators to carry out some form of consultation when planning service changes - the best method to do this can be debated.
Go North East is carrying out changes to services which have strong competition from Stagecoach - would management really risk planning a poor consultation on purpose, when their customers could potentially go to the competition if the changes made leave them worse off?
As I have already suggested - the proposed changes are far from confirmed at this stage. Indeed, I understand there is an upcoming meeting with senior management and local councillors as well as Nexus to discuss the proposed changes, and how they would affect (positively or negatively) residents in Sunderland. Local councillors have prevented proposed service changes going ahead in the past - a (fairly) recent example would of course be the X3 service. Without wishing to spark a debate about this particular service, Go North East attempted to withdraw service X3 and replace it with service X36 quite some time ago, though local councillors insisted that it was vital to keep this service as it was well used by the residents of Boldon. Of course, the service has now been withdrawn, but this followed on from a low frequency service which was designed to work around scholars and keep costs down...
If local councillors kick up a fuss again this time, it is unlikely that the proposed service changes will go ahead in January. Another set of proposals will have to be created which meet the needs (or wants) of local councillors and Nexus as well as Go North East. If local councillors are happy that the changes will benefit the residents of Sunderland, the VOSA registrations will be submitted soon after the meeting takes place ready to become operational in late January.
It would be silly of a company to go into a customer consultation about service changes if they had nothing in mind whatsoever. As Andreos1 has correctly stated; Go North East would have devised a business plan for these service changes, including how this would benefit customers, how the fleet disposition would be affected, and how the paint plan would have to be altered accordingly. These things can take anywhere up to a period of three months to plan effectively; whilst I'm not suggesting that it has taken that amount of time on this occasion, it could well have done for all any of us know.
I don't think anyone could have correctly predicted how poor the consultation for this set of service change proposals has turned out. Whilst the majority of members on this forum have been cynical right from the start, suggesting that the company had already made up its mind with these changes, this is just not the case. The company has gone to the cost of printing posters to pin up on-board Deptford-based buses, the cost of printing feedback forms (which actually didn't seem to be handed out yesterday), and the time of allocating members of staff to spend eight hours based in Park Lane Interchange to talk with passengers. Face-to-face consultations had the potential to be massively beneficial to customers, if they were undertaken in the right way. Sadly, from what I witnessed yesterday, it does not seem that this consultation has been particularly effective. As I have already suggested - perhaps Go North East will go back to the drawing board and look for an alternative means of carrying out a consultation in future, instead of wasting time and resources which could have been spent more wisely.
I feel somewhat obliged to point out that we've seen a gradual lowering of input from Go North East employees on this forum over the past few months. I imagine that unwarranted posts which have continuously portrayed the company in a bad light have contributed to their departure from this forum. This forum was originally a great source of information for news and upcoming changes, though 'insider knowledge' is now incredibly limited. Perhaps if our relationship had not tarnished with our 'insiders' from Go North East, we could have had a clear understanding of what the company had planned, and given our views accordingly for this to potentially alter what the company had planned, but this will certainly not happen now. Whilst everyone on this forum is entitled to an opinion, and free to post their opinions on the public domain, repetitive and infelicitous posts should be avoided if it is going to make the information on this forum more and more limited. As enthusiasts, we all want to be 'kept in the loop', so I can't stress enough that I feel it's terribly important for us to not make a continuous flow of negative posts which portray the company in a bad light, and instead, make an attempt to see the good in some situations. The sun may not shine out of Go North East's exhaust pipe, but I think we all need to learn not to be blinded by our ignorance, which might enable me (and others) to stop making posts to provide the counter-argument...
(25 Nov 2014, 11:14 am)Dan wrote Idiot, I agree with parts of your post...
Go North East is not stupid: this is why the company planned to undertake a consultation, enabling them to gather feedback from customers. As Andreos1 has correctly stated; without customers, there is no business. This is why it is vital for all bus operators to carry out some form of consultation when planning service changes - the best method to do this can be debated.
Go North East is carrying out changes to services which have strong competition from Stagecoach - would management really risk planning a poor consultation on purpose, when their customers could potentially go to the competition if the changes made leave them worse off?
As I have already suggested - the proposed changes are far from confirmed at this stage. Indeed, I understand there is an upcoming meeting with senior management and local councillors as well as Nexus to discuss the proposed changes, and how they would affect (positively or negatively) residents in Sunderland. Local councillors have prevented proposed service changes going ahead in the past - a (fairly) recent example would of course be the X3 service. Without wishing to spark a debate about this particular service, Go North East attempted to withdraw service X3 and replace it with service X36 quite some time ago, though local councillors insisted that it was vital to keep this service as it was well used by the residents of Boldon. Of course, the service has now been withdrawn, but this followed on from a low frequency service which was designed to work around scholars and keep costs down...
If local councillors kick up a fuss again this time, it is unlikely that the proposed service changes will go ahead in January. Another set of proposals will have to be created which meet the needs (or wants) of local councillors and Nexus as well as Go North East. If local councillors are happy that the changes will benefit the residents of Sunderland, the VOSA registrations will be submitted soon after the meeting takes place ready to become operational in late January.
It would be silly of a company to go into a customer consultation about service changes if they had nothing in mind whatsoever. As Andreos1 has correctly stated; Go North East would have devised a business plan for these service changes, including how this would benefit customers, how the fleet disposition would be affected, and how the paint plan would have to be altered accordingly. These things can take anywhere up to a period of three months to plan effectively; whilst I'm not suggesting that it has taken that amount of time on this occasion, it could well have done for all any of us know.
I don't think anyone could have correctly predicted how poor the consultation for this set of service change proposals has turned out. Whilst the majority of members on this forum have been cynical right from the start, suggesting that the company had already made up its mind with these changes, this is just not the case. The company has gone to the cost of printing posters to pin up on-board Deptford-based buses, the cost of printing feedback forms (which actually didn't seem to be handed out yesterday), and the time of allocating members of staff to spend eight hours based in Park Lane Interchange to talk with passengers. Face-to-face consultations had the potential to be massively beneficial to customers, if they were undertaken in the right way. Sadly, from what I witnessed yesterday, it does not seem that this consultation has been particularly effective. As I have already suggested - perhaps Go North East will go back to the drawing board and look for an alternative means of carrying out a consultation in future, instead of wasting time and resources which could have been spent more wisely.
I feel somewhat obliged to point out that we've seen a gradual lowering of input from Go North East employees on this forum over the past few months. I imagine that unwarranted posts which have continuously portrayed the company in a bad light have contributed to their departure from this forum. This forum was originally a great source of information for news and upcoming changes, though 'insider knowledge' is now incredibly limited. Perhaps if our relationship had not tarnished with our 'insiders' from Go North East, we could have had a clear understanding of what the company had planned, and given our views accordingly for this to potentially alter what the company had planned, but this will certainly not happen now. Whilst everyone on this forum is entitled to an opinion, and free to post their opinions on the public domain, repetitive and infelicitous posts should be avoided if it is going to make the information on this forum more and more limited. As enthusiasts, we all want to be 'kept in the loop', so I can't stress enough that I feel it's terribly important for us to not make a continuous flow of negative posts which portray the company in a bad light, and instead, make an attempt to see the good in some situations. The sun may not shine out of Go North East's exhaust pipe, but I think we all need to learn not to be blinded by our ignorance, which might enable me (and others) to stop making posts to provide the counter-argument...
(25 Nov 2014, 11:14 am)Dan wrote ...As I have already suggested - the proposed changes are far from confirmed at this stage. Indeed, I understand there is an upcoming meeting with senior management and local councillors as well as Nexus to discuss the proposed changes, and how they would affect (positively or negatively) residents in Sunderland. Local councillors have prevented proposed service changes going ahead in the past - a (fairly) recent example would of course be the X3 service. Without wishing to spark a debate about this particular service, Go North East attempted to withdraw service X3 and replace it with service X36 quite some time ago, though local councillors insisted that it was vital to keep this service as it was well used by the residents of Boldon. Of course, the service has now been withdrawn, but this followed on from a low frequency service which was designed to work around scholars and keep costs down...Usually, a public consulatation is one of the last stages of bringing in any changes to a service. By now, the buisiness case will have been prepared, all fleet allocations will be sorted, and all documenation prepared for the changes. The consulation being a chance to collect feedback on the changes.
(25 Nov 2014, 11:14 am)Dan wrote ...I feel somewhat obliged to point out that we've seen a gradual lowering of input from Go North East employees on this forum over the past few months. I imagine that unwarranted posts which have continuously portrayed the company in a bad light have contributed to their departure from this forum. This forum was originally a great source of information for news and upcoming changes, though 'insider knowledge' is now incredibly limited. Perhaps if our relationship had not tarnished with our 'insiders' from Go North East, we could have had a clear understanding of what the company had planned, and given our views accordingly for this to potentially alter what the company had planned, but this will certainly not happen now. Whilst everyone on this forum is entitled to an opinion, and free to post their opinions on the public domain, repetitive and infelicitous posts should be avoided if it is going to make the information on this forum more and more limited. As enthusiasts, we all want to be 'kept in the loop', so I can't stress enough that I feel it's terribly important for us to not make a continuous flow of negative posts which portray the company in a bad light, and instead, make an attempt to see the good in some situations. The sun may not shine out of Go North East's exhaust pipe, but I think we all need to learn not to be blinded by our ignorance, which might enable me (and others) to stop making posts to provide the counter-argument...
(25 Nov 2014, 12:00 pm)marxistafozzski wrote I can accept that Dan and GNE cant keep everyone happy all the time...
Instead of hanging around bus stations, they could get out into the communities, hold public forums with the public invited along for tea and biscuits, talk with local parish councils, shit like that if it is possible, in bus station yesterday didnt seem to do much, people have somewhere to go so may not have a great deal of time to hang around and talk...
I will reserve judgment from now till I see the feedback from the consultation...
Bus companies are damned if they do, damned if they dont...
For me, I dont think I have been too critical about GNE in the past, if I believe they do something right I will say so, on the flip side, If I aint happy, again I will say so
(25 Nov 2014, 12:06 pm)cbma06 wrote The problem with the GNE consultation yesterday and the poor turn out, the fact is that there were only 1 to 3 GNE reps there with a plain brown table which looked like a table from the canteen or something with some plain sheets of paper and about 10 pens, there was nothing jumping out towards passengers saying that this is a GNE consulation for proposed bus changes, there was no back drop with the GNE logo, nothing to entice children over with their parents ( like free branded pens, balloons etc... what stagecoach/nexus gives out) or have any kind of proposed routes on a map on a background, while I was at the Interchange yesterday for an hour only a tiny handful of passengers did go over to talk to them. it was badly organised. a lot of passengers coming round from the Grangetown bus stops were just walking past as their wouldn't know. The passengers coming off the 20 wouldn't know because most of them would be heading straight down towards the town itself, the display should of been between service 20 stand and X35 stand. GNE most have some kind of background with their logo on it somewhere in one of their depots or even at riverside offices.
The last time sunderland had a consulation with service 20 included, their proposed that service 20 was going to South Shields, and when the changes happened service 20 wasn't touched.
(25 Nov 2014, 12:17 pm)Andreos1 wrote If a representative from the company doesn't feels as though the comments about the company are wrong or factually incorrect - then surely they can report them?
If the representative from the company feels the comments about the company do have weight, do have merit or there is something behind the posts - then surely they can act on them?
If the representative is bored and no longer wishes to comment - then no matter how much back patting or ego massaging they get, then they will leave. One commented on how much he loved to troll a certain member on here.
One insider (BFK?) was pilloried when he admitted that the Renown with the dodgy reverse select was allocated to the 2a/c - when umpteen posters prior had identified the other routes it could have operated on, without the need to select reverse.
Whilst I have no idea whether it was related, he seemed to disappear/vanish soon after this.
Should people not comment or pass judgement incase an insider decides to no longer post?
Whilst appreciative of insider information, I don't think the board should withhold genuine and fair comment - 'just in-case'.
Remember, it works both ways and one or two insiders have dished out quite a bit towards members on here - some of it unwarranted, untrue and uncalled for.
(25 Nov 2014, 12:18 pm)Scott wrote Usually, a public consulatation is one of the last stages of bringing in any changes to a service. By now, the buisiness case will have been prepared, all fleet allocations will be sorted, and all documenation prepared for the changes. The consulation being a chance to collect feedback on the changes.
When Northumberland County Council axed the post 16 transport provision, their consulatation documents hinted strongly of there intention. Many of the question's where geared towards their evential desicion. Basically what I am saying is that any public consulation has one aim, to get feedback on the plans on the table, but not discuss any alternative options.
Given the quality of customer service that Go North East offer, I believe that they will take into consideration customers views, but by now they will be fairly certain on what option they will take.
(25 Nov 2014, 12:43 pm)Dan wrote A public consultation is carried out once the company has drafted its ideas for proposed route changes, based on suggestions from customers and their own data showing passenger trends.
Like I said before, the company has designed its business case around its proposals, but these have to be altered in accordance with feedback gathered from the public consultation. If the feedback is negative (ie "No, I don't want this to happen."), then the company will make alternative plans based on their data and the feedback gathered.
Thursday's meeting with senior management, local councillors and Nexus will be when things are confirmed.
(25 Nov 2014, 12:46 pm)Scott wrote Go North East could ignore the results of the public consultation if they wanted to. I don't beleive for one second that they would, but there is no legal requirement for them to adjust their plans.
(25 Nov 2014, 12:43 pm)Dan wrote It's the first time Go North East has held a face-to-face consultation instead of a faceless method (ie web-based or paper-based). As I and others have already suggested, it shouldn't have been knocked and suggested to be a bad step. I have said that I personally didn't think that the consultation yesterday was particularly effective, and I justified my reasoning behind this yesterday.
Go North East promoted its new buses very well last year, and through to the start of this year too. It shows that they do know how to grab the attention of customers. I wish some of these techniques had been adopted for yesterday's consultation, but unfortunately this was not so.
I'd assume that minimal feedback would have been gained yesterday, and this is not what senior management would have had in mind. This is why I have suggested that the company would have gone back to the drawing board to look at improving the face-to-face consultation method, or by reinstating one of the previously used more successful methods.
The section of the post regarding the loss of 'insiders' was not directly made about any one person; it was a general statement, having looked back at all of the posts made over the past few days, the fair majority of which were negative.
I have attached a photo for those who didn't get to see the set up yesterday.
The company did have the banner to attract attention - it said something like 'Give us your views', with Go North East logos and all. I'm guessing that this was not set up when you got there, judging by your post, but it was certainly there at 12:30pm.
Free pens and balloons would have been great to attract attention, and again, fits in with the idea of the company's previous events used to promote new buses being launched on services.
Look at the abundance of feedback forms that they had waiting to be filled in - I think it shows that the organisers of the consultation event certainly wanted to get a lot of feedback, but the event itself was carried out poorly...
Posts in the past have been reported on the grounds of being factually incorrect or unwarranted, which is why I have often made posts to provide the counter-argument. They too have sometimes made posts to provide a counter-argument, but as with my posts, it seems that the points contained within the posts aren't listened to, and some members of this forum continue to hold their view and disregard anything else that has been said.
Some of the comments made against all three of the North East's 'big operators' are often far from fair; indeed, I've made some in the past myself. From some members, it comes across as an attack to the company based on their negative views on other topics in the past. The suggestion I made wasn't to stop these posts altogether, but to look for the positives, too...
A public consultation is carried out once the company has drafted its ideas for proposed route changes, based on suggestions from customers and their own data showing passenger trends.
Like I said before, the company has designed its business case around its proposals, but these have to be altered in accordance with feedback gathered from the public consultation. If the majority of the feedback is negative (ie "No, I don't want this to happen."), then the company will make alternative plans based on their data and the feedback gathered. It would be silly of them to change a service when the majority of the feedback gathered was against the plans.
Thursday's meeting with senior management, local councillors and Nexus will be when things are confirmed (either to proceed and register the new services, or to change a few of them slightly to meet the needs of local councillors).
(25 Nov 2014, 1:00 pm)Andreos1 wrote Remember this applies to the T&W Metro
(25 Nov 2014, 1:10 pm)Dan wrote Yes, it does.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of something which is highly commendable of the Tyne & Wear Metro system though? Without wishing to get this thread too off-topic, the implementation of 'new technology' on-board buses is something which I think is quite commendable. Significant investment from each of the big three is another...
The £389 million (or whatever the figure quoted is) project doesn't appear to have helped reliability of the Tyne & Wear Metro system, leaving customers with a woeful service which is a bit more pleasant to use as there isn't such a strong stench of urine. At peak times, you often have to run to another door to actually get on trains, and I've often wondered why more stock hasn't been invested in to allow for more trains during these peak periods...
We all have different opinions of what commendable things are, but the best thing I can think of for the Tyne & Wear Metro system right now is more staff being on-hand at stations, causing less people to evade buying tickets...
(25 Nov 2014, 1:19 pm)AdamY wrote The problem with fairness is that it's subjective. What I might feel is a fair comment others might feel is unfair.In my opinion, that is fair.
For example, for the last two Mondays I have used GNE to travel into Gateshead and back. I've made four journeys using eight buses and, based upon my experience, I'm sick of the service already. Four of those buses have been late and the actions of two bus drivers have caused me to miss connecting buses at Metrocentre. I've also noticed that while drivers are under no obligation to wait for passengers running for the bus at bus stops, drivers of the buses I've been on have no problem on waiting for members of GNE staff running for their bus while standing at the bus stop near the Riverside depot - even though these members of staff are, like passengers, late.
Is this comment fair or unfair?
(25 Nov 2014, 1:25 pm)Dan wrote In my opinion, that is fair.
If it were me being affected by this, I'd complain to Customer Services who in turn would pass the message onto the appropriate depot managers who could actually do something about it, though.
(25 Nov 2014, 1:19 pm)AdamY wrote The problem with fairness is that it's subjective. What I might feel is a fair comment others might feel is unfair.
For example, for the last two Mondays I have used GNE to travel into Gateshead and back. I've made four journeys using eight buses and, based upon my experience, I'm sick of the service already. Four of those buses have been late and the actions of two bus drivers have caused me to miss connecting buses at Metrocentre. I've also noticed that while drivers are under no obligation to wait for passengers running for the bus at bus stops, drivers of the buses I've been on have no problem on waiting for members of GNE staff running for their bus while standing at the bus stop near the Riverside depot - even though these members of staff are, like passengers, late.
Is this comment fair or unfair?
