(28 Oct 2023, 11:15 pm)Andreos1 wrote There's no social housing at all in Portobello (not that it's an actual place, it lends it's name to a road, industrial estate and a school). 
Car usage is high across Vigo (where I think you're referring to) and it's all private housing.

It's been awful since it was built in the 60s and 70s and other than the 23 that served the older part of the estate and variations of the 82/83 in recent years, there's not been a bus service that's penetrated the estate ever.

Ah just realised those weird block houses off Portsmead Road aren't, always thought they were. Similar to some where I live and they are up here.

It's a strange area as it's very similar to Stakeford and the West end of Ashington in terms of housing. The only difference is one can somehow manage 3 buses an hour with investment every other year and is actually above pre Covid levels and the other doesn't have anything.

I don't really sell of the car excuse anyway tbh. Cramlington can somehow manage a bus service and so can Kingston Park with it's 4 express buses an hour and that's all 1970's/1980's car in mind housing or Ponteland and it's 2 BPH.

Density of course I agree, running 4 BPH to Consett via a bunch of villages is always going to have it's problems, but these are pretty much urban and sub urban routes areas throughout.

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(28 Oct 2023, 11:24 pm)Unber43 wrote Consett had the best network going after the Sept 2021 changes. 

The only thing I would change is the 47 one went to Castleside the other went to Shotley Bridge, and the X5 went to Castleside and X15 went to Shotley Bridge I think that would have been better. 

Aswell I was out early, and I was thinking with ISquared taking over Arriva, when Arriva goes in for pay negotations it could either go one way DB not wanting to talk at all, or they just give them whatever they want as theyll only be in control for maybe 6 months, however if they do the former and the drivers go out on a walk out, it might give GNE or SCNE (presumably GNE solve their dispute) to maybe purchase a depot from Arriva as they dont care theyve just sold the company, they dont want to pay their workers anymore, sell Belmont or Blyth/Ashington to GNE/SCNE make some money.

Also it is intresting that the amount of people learning to drive is reducing year upon year and that is going to have to lead to more use in public transport, that change hast to start now in crafting a network which is good, I would say pre-Sept 2021 changes GNE network was one of the best its ever been atleast in the past 10 years, they really tried, but I no one knew about it really. No one looks oooo lets see whats happening on Go North East, they need to market, I remember DAn sayign there was a big marketing push when Driver Shortage was over in the East Gateshead area, look how taht is now its only the EG Rider left.

And I think thats something else Branding, its unique to GNE yes, its perhaps not needed but it gives a route an identity, I cannot believe what happened to the Loops, there was no need to brand then East Gateshead Loop considering they spend half their time in west gateshead, same with the Orbits. Branding is something that should stay in my opinion but for it to work you need a solid network, just look at the failures with S&D.

For me most services should be branded...I know this is unpopular but I think the only services which should be unbranded is

25 (PVR 2)
34 (maybe, it does get busy)
41/41A (too many changes in NT)
99 (contracted runs 4 each day each way)
most few daily contracted services aswell
Why not brand the 701/702/703 - Chester-Le-Street Town Services.

Go back to old branding Simplicity, Silver Arrows, CityLink (58/57), no need for EG. Just the nromal Loop. for heaven sakes the Drifters flagship route has had no TLC for 10 years. Also the NTR what a joke "look out for a purple bus" theres more red and blue ones than purple, when theyre runnig that is, infact theyre the only service running and you see more coasters on them I mean FFS

But for branding to mean something you have focus on it, it means not allocating routes everywhere, it means sticking to spares being the 2019 lvieries buses only, no Prince Bishops popping up on the 700, or 60's spending more time in South tyneside. And the buses have to reliabile i mean just look at the state of the TVT, and there are going to be no new buses for years just old awful ex-london spec with rock hard seats, no USBs or anything, nothing to make people feel a reason to get the bus, "oh i can get a charge" "oh we can get a table" and I know that was one of my reasons to get the bus, but especially with the unreability of the fleet and the ex-london buses which are awful inside and wouldnt want to go on them.

Gonna reply in the other thread as it fits there better.

(28 Oct 2023, 11:48 pm)Storx wrote Ah just realised those weird block houses off Portsmead Road aren't, always thought they were. Similar to some where I live and they are up here. 

It's a strange area as it's very similar to Stakeford and the West end of Ashington in terms of housing. The only difference is one can somehow manage 3 buses an hour with investment every other year and is actually above pre Covid levels and the other doesn't have anything.

I don't really sell of the car excuse anyway tbh. Cramlington can somehow manage a bus service and so can Kingston Park with it's 4 express buses an hour and that's all 1970's/1980's car in mind housing or Ponteland and it's 2 BPH.

Density of course I agree, running 4 BPH to Consett via a bunch of villages is always going to have it's problems, but these are pretty much urban and sub urban routes areas throughout.

---

Gonna reply in the other thread as it fits there better.

Ah, Portmeads. Not sure what the status of them are now. 
I know they were built as temporary pre-fabs when work was being done on the homes in Kibblesworth.

But there is a canny high car ownership along there. Portmeads Road was actually a dead-end until recently (25/30 years ago), when they opened it up to connect to Fell Bank and eventually Mount Pleasant Road when that was built.

Getting back to your main point, it has an OK service compared to a lot of that side of Birtley. Far from good enough and clearly not offering the public any real choice. Particularly when you look at the major employment or retail options and how easy it is to get to them via car vs public transport.

51/52 stop serving Newcastle was a bad decision

(29 Oct 2023, 12:08 am)Unber43 wrote 51/52 stop serving Newcastle was a bad decision

And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.

A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.

The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.

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(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian wrote And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.

A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.

The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.

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All the NE network from Whitby to Ashington needs to be under control of one company - I would call it Go North East (i think its the best name) and it needs to be all local councils coming together and building a decent network while keeping major flagship services connected, through branding and route numbers) 

But we keep saying that, but really no bus comapany in the north east have changed their routes for current travel patterns really, its just fortunate that SCNE have a lot of inter city routes whereas GNE is more distance. 

Arguably SC/GNE working together would be amazing keeping local links while expanding past the centre, where express can be created. I definately think Sunderland could be a real chance for that to happen. 

There are so many good things you can do, bring back the X20, increase the 20/20A to every 10 mins combined you cna go into A690 estates connect Rainton Bridge etc and Durham. 

56 could be a big one aswell around Town End Farm, I wonder if a possible 35 extension to Newcastle maybe a good thing take out the bit round Castletown (as the 8 goes there)

(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian wrote And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.

A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.

The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.

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I am usually one of the first to criticise Arriva (and let's face it, they have loads of low hanging fruit), at least they haven't needed to refer themselves to the Serious Fraud Office for literally stealing taxpayers' money for years. The GAG as a whole seems to have had chronic issues, and what is going on at GNE is possibly an indicator of the greater malaise and rot at the group's operational HQ in London. Let's hope the new owners (and CEO) can get a grip of the mess.

Wow been away for couple of days and that was a long read

Couple of things though

Someone mention the great partk.... If you can afford a house on the great park ( starting from 325000 i belive) you can afford a taxi to where your going or even to the first stop with an arriva service. Alos all these new developments.. people who buy a house for 250000 plus with a double garage and 2 parking spaces arnt going to use the bus!!

I also agree with Storx that nexus shouldn't be burdened with covering commercial routes - the soon franchising comes in the better!

(29 Oct 2023, 8:16 am)Rob44 wrote Someone mention the great partk.... If you can afford a house on the great park ( starting from 325000 i belive) you can afford a taxi to where your going or even to the first stop with an arriva service. Alos all these new developments.. people who buy a house for 250000 plus with a double garage and 2 parking spaces arnt going to use the bus!!

Absolutely this.

While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.

No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus.


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(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Absolutely this.

While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.

No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus. 


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Just want to drill this down a bit. 
You're saying all bus users are exclusively non-car owners?

I think we all know that's not the case. 

Operators need to grow patronage. They're not going to do that relying on non-car owners.
They need to do everything they can do to encourage others (including car owners) to make the modal switch.
They've tried it with paint jobs and tables (there's two for your NEB Bingo if you have them) and it didn't work.
They've tried the lower fares and it's had some impact. 
They've bleated about bus lanes and priority measures and all that tends to do is slow things down for everyone. Particularly when the measures are poorly designed. 

What other things (within their own control) can they do go encourage growth, other than looking at the network and seeing what people actually want/need?

(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Absolutely this.

While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.

No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus.


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But people learning to drive has decreased steadly since 2016/7 and its still going down, and with the prices going up when I was learning it was £30 an hour and my driving instructer just before i passed was putting it upto £35 an hour, and I can see why people cannot afford it, its over 3x the minimum wage. 

Really bus driving is a specialist skill and there are only so many people who passing their test and wanting to become a bus drivers, I'd imagine its a small percentage. It's going down 815K(2016/2017), 795K(17/18), 761K(18/19), 734K (19/20) THis was after covid 2020: 388,166 2021: 552,100, 2022: 801,932, thats an average of around 500K a year and with the backlog and the high population its clearly decreasing so there definetly is a market for public transport but it hast to work for the population 

(29 Oct 2023, 3:40 pm)Andreos1 wrote What other things (within their own control) can they do go encourage growth, other than looking at the network and seeing what people actually want/need?

I never said that looking at the network isn't necessary, my question is once you change the network to suit what people indicate they want; and they still reject the bus in favour of the car (which is private, warm, reliable, there on-demand, takes you from door to door and allows for route deviations to obtain your shopping or whatever), what do you do then?


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(29 Oct 2023, 3:51 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I never said that looking at the network isn't necessary, my question is once you change the network to suit what people indicate they want; and they still reject the bus in favour of the car (which is private, warm, reliable, there on-demand, takes you from door to door and allows for route deviations to obtain your shopping or whatever), what do you do then?


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Look in the mirror and sleep tight knowing you at least tried to grow the network and used all the options available to you. 

As opposed to the current mob, who don't use all the options available to them.

(29 Oct 2023, 4:03 pm)Andreos1 wrote Look in the mirror and sleep tight knowing you at least tried to grow the network and used all the options available to you. 

As opposed to the current mob, who don't use all the options available to them.

Didn't GNE try? After the Sept 2021 changes the network for for a large part ideal.

(29 Oct 2023, 4:10 pm)Unber43 wrote Didn't GNE try? After the Sept 2021 changes the network for for a large part ideal.

Not sure what you mean? 
All I've tended to see is a stagnant network that looks pretty much the same as the map in Beamish.

(29 Oct 2023, 4:11 pm)Andreos1 wrote Not sure what you mean? 
All I've tended to see is a stagnant network that looks pretty much the same as the map in Beamish.

After Sept 2021 GNE network was the best it was in years, and that didnt work, so they need to go back to the drawing board, but they need to reinvent areas while keeping key flashsip routes while added routes around them to try and bolster the network whcih could cause the flagships to reduce frequncies. 

Like the 28/29 I wonder if an extension to Waldridge may be appropriate. Personally I quite like the hub and spoke model but that involves timing/the frequencys to be right, like if you wanted to go to Penshaw from NEwcaslte you used to miss the 2/2A on the X1 by about 3 mins, so it was either 27 min and leave newcastle early. Or X10, after 4/5pm the Purples dont run

I've noticed in one of the community groups I'm in on Facebook, there's a load of people now arranging car shares with other people that live locally and happen to work in the same vicinity. I wonder how many of these arrangements will continue post-strike action, if it's mutually convenient?

Another threat to long-term passenger numbers for when GNE services return.

(29 Oct 2023, 5:11 pm)Unber43 wrote After Sept 2021 GNE network was the best it was in years, and that didnt work, so they need to go back to the drawing board, but they need to reinvent areas while keeping key flashsip routes while added routes around them to try and bolster the network whcih could cause the flagships to reduce frequncies. 

Like the 28/29 I wonder if an extension to Waldridge may be appropriate. Personally I quite like the hub and spoke model but that involves timing/the frequencys to be right, like if you wanted to go to Penshaw from NEwcaslte you used to miss the 2/2A on the X1 by about 3 mins, so it was either 27 min and leave newcastle early. Or X10, after 4/5pm the Purples dont run

The problem with hub and spoke models is that people tend to forget that hubs and spokes are there to support an even bigger structure: the wheel.

Hubs and spokes alone are pointless on their lonesome. You need things at the top of the spokes to make the model work more effectively. So, for example, having Durham and Consett at the end of the spokes is a bit pointless if one has to travel to Newcastle in order to get from one to the other whereas having the direct link between Durham and Consett makes the wheel (or network) work as it should. 

Now, obviously there is a link between Consett and Durham in the form of the X5/X15 (and to a lesser extent, the 16), but there are examples where that link is almost non-existent. 

For example, in the GNE dominated area of Derwentside, the villages of Rowlands Gill and Burnopfield lie approximately one mile from each other. Now, there is a limited link between the two villages in the form of the R5, but it only runs between 0900 and 1600 Mon-Sat (I think) which means if one wishes to travel outside of those times across a relatively short distance, it would involve either walking (about 20-30 mins depending on fitness), or getting on a bus to Metrocentre (about 10-15 minutes), then getting the bus from Metrocentre to Burnopfield (about 30 minutes). And that's two buses you need. So travelling down the spoke to the hub, then from the hub back up a neighbouring spoke, not only costs you more money, but also time.

Of course, if you had a car, the journey takes less than 5 minutes, so why use the bus at all? 

This is where, I think, the hub and spoke model largely fails as communities which should be connected by public transport links become isolated from one another.

(29 Oct 2023, 9:18 pm)MurdnunoC wrote The problem with hub and spoke models is that people tend to forget that hubs and spokes are there to support an even bigger structure: the wheel.

Hubs and spokes alone are pointless on their lonesome. You need things at the top of the spokes to make the model work more effectively. So, for example, having Durham and Consett at the end of the spokes is a bit pointless if one has to travel to Newcastle in order to get from one to the other whereas having the direct link between Durham and Consett makes the wheel (or network) work as it should. 

Now, obviously there is a link between Consett and Durham in the form of the X5/X15 (and to a lesser extent, the 16), but there are examples where that link is almost non-existent. 

For example, in the GNE dominated area of Derwentside, the villages of Rowlands Gill and Burnopfield lie approximately one mile from each other. Now, there is a limited link between the two villages in the form of the R5, but it only runs between 0900 and 1600 Mon-Sat (I think) which means if one wishes to travel outside of those times across a relatively short distance, it would involve either walking (about 20-30 mins depending on fitness), or getting on a bus to Metrocentre (about 10-15 minutes), then getting the bus from Metrocentre to Burnopfield (about 30 minutes). And that's two buses you need. So travelling down the spoke to the hub, then from the hub back up a neighbouring spoke, not only costs you more money, but also time.

Of course, if you had a car, the journey takes less than 5 minutes, so why use the bus at all? 

This is where, I think, the hub and spoke model largely fails as communities which should be connected by public transport links become isolated from one another.

I was trying to picture the GNE network as Hub & Spoke and all I kept imagining, was this: 

If anyone can actually do some work or an illustration to give a rough idea of what the network looks like, I'm sure it would be appreciated by many on here.

(30 Oct 2023, 9:32 am)Andreos1 wrote I was trying to picture the GNE network as Hub & Spoke and all I kept imagining, was this: 

If anyone can actually do some work or an illustration to give a rough idea of what the network looks like, I'm sure it would be appreciated by many on here.

There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too. 

One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.  

This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards.  In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.

To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.

(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC wrote There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too. 

One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.   

This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards.  In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.

To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.

I 100% agree. 
It's not just the new housing developments that need to be factored in to any redesign of the network. 

Suggested something similar in the SNE suggestions thread.

If there's a boat-load of congestion or road improvement schemes, there's scope to improve the public transport network imo.
Whatever is there, is clearly not working. Or, there's nothing there at all and there needs to be.

(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC wrote There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too. 

One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.  

This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards.  In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.

To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.

It's a problem with the whole North East this and ironically it's a problem in London aswell.

There is a real problem with transport which goes around places. Everything is designed that everyone wants to go to Sunderland, Newcastle or Gateshead centre but if you actually want to commute around the outside it's near impossible without a detour.

For the hub and spoke map someone mentioned here you go, coloured routes being pretty much the only routes 'going around'. The red arrow corridors are near impossible to commute currently, and it's not as if there's no reason to be doing them as the red dots are arguably the major employment sites in Tyne and Wear.



Not ironic that arrows pretty much follow the corridor of the A1 and A19 aswell, the two busiest roads in the area.

(30 Oct 2023, 10:24 am)Storx wrote It's a problem with the whole North East this and ironically it's a problem in London aswell.

There is a real problem with transport which goes around places. Everything is designed that everyone wants to go to Sunderland, Newcastle or Gateshead centre but if you actually want to commute around the outside it's near impossible without a detour.

For the hub and spoke map someone mentioned here you go, coloured routes being pretty much the only routes 'going around'. The red arrow corridors are near impossible to commute currently, and it's not as if there's no reason to be doing them as the red dots are arguably the major employment sites in Tyne and Wear.



Not ironic that arrows pretty much follow the corridor of the A1 and A19 aswell, the two busiest roads in the area. 

You're a good un. 

Fancy doing one for County Durham?

It's absolutely crazy that there's not an operator able to or capable of joining the dots here.

(30 Oct 2023, 11:05 am)Andreos1 wrote You're a good un. 

Fancy doing one for County Durham?

It's absolutely crazy that there's not an operator able to or capable of joining the dots here.

I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place .

Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.

That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .

I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.

What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute

A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region

(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx wrote I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place . 

Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.

Isn't that what the commercial teams actually do?

---

(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador wrote That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .

I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.

What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute

A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region

It baffles me. It really does. And it's not the only example. There are many, many more.

(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador wrote That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .

I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.

What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute

A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region

Aye it's bonkers, the Tyne Tunnel heading towards Cobalt where I think you's are based is just as bad.

imo there badly needs to be four round the town services let's call them super loops, because why not, which are:

SL1: Cramlington - Great Park - Kingston Park (M) - some areas in the West End - Metro Centre
SL2: Metro Centre (NR) - Dunston - Team Valley - Birtley - Washington
SL3: Northumberland Park (M/NR) - Cobalt - Silverlink - Percy Main (M) - Jarrow (M) - Fellgate (M) - Boldon Colliery (ASDA)
SL4: Boldon Colliery (ASDA) - Hylton / Castletown - Pennywell - Farringdon - Doxford Park - Seaham (NR)

You could combine SL1/SL2 and SL3/SL4 but they'd be rather long.

Do I think they'll make millions of pounds, no but if you really want a 'hub and spoke' network then they're really needed. Would change things big time as it links the main hubs up so say if someone does need to go to Nissan from Percy Main they've now got an easy choice to change to the 50 at Boldon Colliery or if someone needs to go to Team Valley from Ryton they can change at the Metro Centre etc and pretty much all the routes heading towards Newcastle hit them somewhere.

(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx wrote I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place .

Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.

Here's a rough sketch of the 50 route:

And because of my natural proclivity to provide a historical perspective. Here are some maps covering Newcastle and Gateshead from 1981 and 1986 respectively







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(Re-edited because the images sent from Tapatalk weren't the best)

(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)Adrian wrote Here's a rough sketch of the 50 route:

Ha, the 2/2A, 8 and 50 were ironically the 3 that actually made me give up as they bounce on top of each other all over the place so it just looked like I had a new hobby of colouring in the streets of Washington. Totally illogical routing when trying to map it.

Then decided to go for individual colours and started at Consett and that looked like I was scribbling again with the extensions across to Shotley Bridge and Castleside.

(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)MurdnunoC wrote And because of my natural proclivity to provide a historical perspective. Here are some maps covering Newcastle and Gateshead from 1981 and 1986 respectively







Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk

(Re-edited because the images sent from Tapatalk weren't the best)

What's that 777 route? Can't remember that mind. 
Aware the PTE maps weren't always the most accurate, but that's a new one on me.