Reversing the decline in passenger numbers
Reversing the decline in passenger numbers
(28 Oct 2023, 1:29 pm)Andreos1 Well yeah, because they're gonna have to spend an absolute fortune recruiting and training an entire workforce.
(28 Oct 2023, 1:29 pm)Andreos1 Well yeah, because they're gonna have to spend an absolute fortune recruiting and training an entire workforce.
(28 Oct 2023, 2:41 pm)streetdeckfan That implies they would want to keep running buses in the North East. It's just not financially viable!
(28 Oct 2023, 2:41 pm)streetdeckfan That implies they would want to keep running buses in the North East. It's just not financially viable!
(28 Oct 2023, 8:21 pm)Andreos1 Well it is. Or certain routes are.
Probably a load more routes are viable too, if they existed and there was the commercial nous to do something about getting cars off the road (beyond tables and paint jobs).
The fact these buses are stuck in traffic, tells me there's more than enough people out there. Enough people to make the operators enough money to keep the shareholders happy.
530,000 people are living in County Durham alone.
345,000 in the Sunderland Council authority.
Almost 1 million people across just TWO conurbations dominated by GNE, yet they can't make any money...
Whack in another 200,000 in Gateshead, throw in a proportion of the population of Newcastle, North Tyneside and South Tyneside and it is pretty clear where the issue lies.
(28 Oct 2023, 8:21 pm)Andreos1 Well it is. Or certain routes are.
Probably a load more routes are viable too, if they existed and there was the commercial nous to do something about getting cars off the road (beyond tables and paint jobs).
The fact these buses are stuck in traffic, tells me there's more than enough people out there. Enough people to make the operators enough money to keep the shareholders happy.
530,000 people are living in County Durham alone.
345,000 in the Sunderland Council authority.
Almost 1 million people across just TWO conurbations dominated by GNE, yet they can't make any money...
Whack in another 200,000 in Gateshead, throw in a proportion of the population of Newcastle, North Tyneside and South Tyneside and it is pretty clear where the issue lies.
(28 Oct 2023, 8:48 pm)Storx Wouldn't say GNE dominate Durham and Sunderland mind, Stagecoach dominate Sunderland imo, and Arriva dominate the stronger corridors in Durham, Peterlee to Durham for example.
Gateshead should be GNE's gold mine, they dominate the Metro Centre and they dominate corridors which should have rapid transport but don't. Areas like Low Fell, Birtley, Felling, the QE etc. should be some of the strongest corridors in the North East, similar to the Stagecoach Newcastle services. Instead we have one corridor with constant investment (Durham Road) and everywhere else is limping around with buses from London which are life expired.
Not to mention Washington is one of the largest towns without a rail service at all, yet the bus services towards other areas without changing after travelling in the wrong direction are non existent and that's if it isn't subsidised.
The state of some routes routes which used to be flagship routes; the 10, 27, 49, 51, 52, 56, 58, 93, 94 and 97 in particular is poor, nothing appealing about them to use them - if they bother to run at all. Most have had downgrades in recent times nevermind upgrades.
(28 Oct 2023, 8:48 pm)Storx Wouldn't say GNE dominate Durham and Sunderland mind, Stagecoach dominate Sunderland imo, and Arriva dominate the stronger corridors in Durham, Peterlee to Durham for example.
Gateshead should be GNE's gold mine, they dominate the Metro Centre and they dominate corridors which should have rapid transport but don't. Areas like Low Fell, Birtley, Felling, the QE etc. should be some of the strongest corridors in the North East, similar to the Stagecoach Newcastle services. Instead we have one corridor with constant investment (Durham Road) and everywhere else is limping around with buses from London which are life expired.
Not to mention Washington is one of the largest towns without a rail service at all, yet the bus services towards other areas without changing after travelling in the wrong direction are non existent and that's if it isn't subsidised.
The state of some routes routes which used to be flagship routes; the 10, 27, 49, 51, 52, 56, 58, 93, 94 and 97 in particular is poor, nothing appealing about them to use them - if they bother to run at all. Most have had downgrades in recent times nevermind upgrades.
(28 Oct 2023, 8:59 pm)Andreos1 Whether they dominate them or not, they're clearly in the catchment area of a proportion of those populations.
Let's say a quarter of Durham and half of Sunderland (including Washington).
More than enough people to make the services viable - assuming GNE actually took the time to see where those people were travelling to.
(28 Oct 2023, 8:59 pm)Andreos1 Whether they dominate them or not, they're clearly in the catchment area of a proportion of those populations.
Let's say a quarter of Durham and half of Sunderland (including Washington).
More than enough people to make the services viable - assuming GNE actually took the time to see where those people were travelling to.
(28 Oct 2023, 8:59 pm)Andreos1 Whether they dominate them or not, they're clearly in the catchment area of a proportion of those populations.
Let's say a quarter of Durham and half of Sunderland (including Washington).
More than enough people to make the services viable - assuming GNE actually took the time to see where those people were travelling to.
(28 Oct 2023, 8:59 pm)Andreos1 Whether they dominate them or not, they're clearly in the catchment area of a proportion of those populations.
Let's say a quarter of Durham and half of Sunderland (including Washington).
More than enough people to make the services viable - assuming GNE actually took the time to see where those people were travelling to.
(28 Oct 2023, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan You can't just look at a population number and label it a good catchment area. It's about population density, where settlements are in relation to other places and the sociodemographic makeup of those settlements. There is more to this sort of thing than just getting a bunch of crayons out and drawing things on a map...
(28 Oct 2023, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan You can't just look at a population number and label it a good catchment area. It's about population density, where settlements are in relation to other places and the sociodemographic makeup of those settlements. There is more to this sort of thing than just getting a bunch of crayons out and drawing things on a map...
(28 Oct 2023, 10:29 pm)Ambassador Indeed, Birtley gets mentioned a lot but outside the core Durham Rd area, most of the growth in Birtley is private housing (Northside etc) Even towards Newcastle Bank, it’s historically private ownership (long bank, northdene, crathie, hollys) with space for two car families
If Birtley hadn’t have by chance been positioned on Durham Road it would probably be getting a 30 min frequency,
(28 Oct 2023, 10:29 pm)Ambassador Indeed, Birtley gets mentioned a lot but outside the core Durham Rd area, most of the growth in Birtley is private housing (Northside etc) Even towards Newcastle Bank, it’s historically private ownership (long bank, northdene, crathie, hollys) with space for two car families
If Birtley hadn’t have by chance been positioned on Durham Road it would probably be getting a 30 min frequency,
(28 Oct 2023, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan You can't just look at a population number and label it a good catchment area. It's about population density, where settlements are in relation to other places and the sociodemographic makeup of those settlements. There is more to this sort of thing than just getting a bunch of crayons out and drawing things on a map...
(28 Oct 2023, 11:03 pm)Storx Admit this is a bit off topic but not sure I agree with that, there's a fair amount of social housing / low car usage housing in the Portobello area which has an absymal service.
The 21 imo is way overbussed between Birtley and CLS aswell.
I'm not going to delve into the land of suggestions here but there's an 82 which serves all these areas and a 21 which is overbussed south of Birtley. Bolt the things together imo, then you'd have a decent destination at both ends of the route and open connections up to Washington across all of Birtley and connections to Newcastle in the opposite direction. It's the exact sort of network Arriva has up here pretty much. Not to mention the Low Fell to Washington connection which in turn then opens up the Low Fell to Sunderland connections, or Nissan, or Houghton Le Spring and so on.
The 21 is crying to be split up against like the Arriva 43/44/45, X10/X11 or X21/X22 imo which it was in the past. One thing I'll always give credit to Arriva is literally everywhere in Northumberland which they serve has a direct link to Newcastle.
(28 Oct 2023, 10:29 pm)Ambassador Indeed, Birtley gets mentioned a lot but outside the core Durham Rd area, most of the growth in Birtley is private housing (Northside etc) Even towards Newcastle Bank, it’s historically private ownership (long bank, northdene, crathie, hollys) with space for two car families
If Birtley hadn’t have by chance been positioned on Durham Road it would probably be getting a 30 min frequency,
(28 Oct 2023, 9:34 pm)DeltaMan You can't just look at a population number and label it a good catchment area. It's about population density, where settlements are in relation to other places and the sociodemographic makeup of those settlements. There is more to this sort of thing than just getting a bunch of crayons out and drawing things on a map...
(28 Oct 2023, 11:03 pm)Storx Admit this is a bit off topic but not sure I agree with that, there's a fair amount of social housing / low car usage housing in the Portobello area which has an absymal service.
The 21 imo is way overbussed between Birtley and CLS aswell.
I'm not going to delve into the land of suggestions here but there's an 82 which serves all these areas and a 21 which is overbussed south of Birtley. Bolt the things together imo, then you'd have a decent destination at both ends of the route and open connections up to Washington across all of Birtley and connections to Newcastle in the opposite direction. It's the exact sort of network Arriva has up here pretty much. Not to mention the Low Fell to Washington connection which in turn then opens up the Low Fell to Sunderland connections, or Nissan, or Houghton Le Spring and so on.
The 21 is crying to be split up against like the Arriva 43/44/45, X10/X11 or X21/X22 imo which it was in the past. One thing I'll always give credit to Arriva is literally everywhere in Northumberland which they serve has a direct link to Newcastle.
(28 Oct 2023, 10:29 pm)Ambassador Indeed, Birtley gets mentioned a lot but outside the core Durham Rd area, most of the growth in Birtley is private housing (Northside etc) Even towards Newcastle Bank, it’s historically private ownership (long bank, northdene, crathie, hollys) with space for two car families
If Birtley hadn’t have by chance been positioned on Durham Road it would probably be getting a 30 min frequency,
(28 Oct 2023, 9:17 pm)Storx Aye fair points but being honest I actually don't think Go North East do that bad in rural areas, I can say nice things sometimes... Consett and Stanley have decent enough networks imo.Consett had the best network going after the Sept 2021 changes.
(28 Oct 2023, 9:17 pm)Storx Aye fair points but being honest I actually don't think Go North East do that bad in rural areas, I can say nice things sometimes... Consett and Stanley have decent enough networks imo.Consett had the best network going after the Sept 2021 changes.
(28 Oct 2023, 11:15 pm)Andreos1 There's no social housing at all in Portobello (not that it's an actual place, it lends it's name to a road, industrial estate and a school).
Car usage is high across Vigo (where I think you're referring to) and it's all private housing.
It's been awful since it was built in the 60s and 70s and other than the 23 that served the older part of the estate and variations of the 82/83 in recent years, there's not been a bus service that's penetrated the estate ever.
(28 Oct 2023, 11:24 pm)Unber43 Consett had the best network going after the Sept 2021 changes.
The only thing I would change is the 47 one went to Castleside the other went to Shotley Bridge, and the X5 went to Castleside and X15 went to Shotley Bridge I think that would have been better.
Aswell I was out early, and I was thinking with ISquared taking over Arriva, when Arriva goes in for pay negotations it could either go one way DB not wanting to talk at all, or they just give them whatever they want as theyll only be in control for maybe 6 months, however if they do the former and the drivers go out on a walk out, it might give GNE or SCNE (presumably GNE solve their dispute) to maybe purchase a depot from Arriva as they dont care theyve just sold the company, they dont want to pay their workers anymore, sell Belmont or Blyth/Ashington to GNE/SCNE make some money.
Also it is intresting that the amount of people learning to drive is reducing year upon year and that is going to have to lead to more use in public transport, that change hast to start now in crafting a network which is good, I would say pre-Sept 2021 changes GNE network was one of the best its ever been atleast in the past 10 years, they really tried, but I no one knew about it really. No one looks oooo lets see whats happening on Go North East, they need to market, I remember DAn sayign there was a big marketing push when Driver Shortage was over in the East Gateshead area, look how taht is now its only the EG Rider left.
And I think thats something else Branding, its unique to GNE yes, its perhaps not needed but it gives a route an identity, I cannot believe what happened to the Loops, there was no need to brand then East Gateshead Loop considering they spend half their time in west gateshead, same with the Orbits. Branding is something that should stay in my opinion but for it to work you need a solid network, just look at the failures with S&D.
For me most services should be branded...I know this is unpopular but I think the only services which should be unbranded is
25 (PVR 2)
34 (maybe, it does get busy)
41/41A (too many changes in NT)
99 (contracted runs 4 each day each way)
most few daily contracted services aswell
Why not brand the 701/702/703 - Chester-Le-Street Town Services.
Go back to old branding Simplicity, Silver Arrows, CityLink (58/57), no need for EG. Just the nromal Loop. for heaven sakes the Drifters flagship route has had no TLC for 10 years. Also the NTR what a joke "look out for a purple bus" theres more red and blue ones than purple, when theyre runnig that is, infact theyre the only service running and you see more coasters on them I mean FFS
But for branding to mean something you have focus on it, it means not allocating routes everywhere, it means sticking to spares being the 2019 lvieries buses only, no Prince Bishops popping up on the 700, or 60's spending more time in South tyneside. And the buses have to reliabile i mean just look at the state of the TVT, and there are going to be no new buses for years just old awful ex-london spec with rock hard seats, no USBs or anything, nothing to make people feel a reason to get the bus, "oh i can get a charge" "oh we can get a table" and I know that was one of my reasons to get the bus, but especially with the unreability of the fleet and the ex-london buses which are awful inside and wouldnt want to go on them.
(28 Oct 2023, 11:15 pm)Andreos1 There's no social housing at all in Portobello (not that it's an actual place, it lends it's name to a road, industrial estate and a school).
Car usage is high across Vigo (where I think you're referring to) and it's all private housing.
It's been awful since it was built in the 60s and 70s and other than the 23 that served the older part of the estate and variations of the 82/83 in recent years, there's not been a bus service that's penetrated the estate ever.
(28 Oct 2023, 11:24 pm)Unber43 Consett had the best network going after the Sept 2021 changes.
The only thing I would change is the 47 one went to Castleside the other went to Shotley Bridge, and the X5 went to Castleside and X15 went to Shotley Bridge I think that would have been better.
Aswell I was out early, and I was thinking with ISquared taking over Arriva, when Arriva goes in for pay negotations it could either go one way DB not wanting to talk at all, or they just give them whatever they want as theyll only be in control for maybe 6 months, however if they do the former and the drivers go out on a walk out, it might give GNE or SCNE (presumably GNE solve their dispute) to maybe purchase a depot from Arriva as they dont care theyve just sold the company, they dont want to pay their workers anymore, sell Belmont or Blyth/Ashington to GNE/SCNE make some money.
Also it is intresting that the amount of people learning to drive is reducing year upon year and that is going to have to lead to more use in public transport, that change hast to start now in crafting a network which is good, I would say pre-Sept 2021 changes GNE network was one of the best its ever been atleast in the past 10 years, they really tried, but I no one knew about it really. No one looks oooo lets see whats happening on Go North East, they need to market, I remember DAn sayign there was a big marketing push when Driver Shortage was over in the East Gateshead area, look how taht is now its only the EG Rider left.
And I think thats something else Branding, its unique to GNE yes, its perhaps not needed but it gives a route an identity, I cannot believe what happened to the Loops, there was no need to brand then East Gateshead Loop considering they spend half their time in west gateshead, same with the Orbits. Branding is something that should stay in my opinion but for it to work you need a solid network, just look at the failures with S&D.
For me most services should be branded...I know this is unpopular but I think the only services which should be unbranded is
25 (PVR 2)
34 (maybe, it does get busy)
41/41A (too many changes in NT)
99 (contracted runs 4 each day each way)
most few daily contracted services aswell
Why not brand the 701/702/703 - Chester-Le-Street Town Services.
Go back to old branding Simplicity, Silver Arrows, CityLink (58/57), no need for EG. Just the nromal Loop. for heaven sakes the Drifters flagship route has had no TLC for 10 years. Also the NTR what a joke "look out for a purple bus" theres more red and blue ones than purple, when theyre runnig that is, infact theyre the only service running and you see more coasters on them I mean FFS
But for branding to mean something you have focus on it, it means not allocating routes everywhere, it means sticking to spares being the 2019 lvieries buses only, no Prince Bishops popping up on the 700, or 60's spending more time in South tyneside. And the buses have to reliabile i mean just look at the state of the TVT, and there are going to be no new buses for years just old awful ex-london spec with rock hard seats, no USBs or anything, nothing to make people feel a reason to get the bus, "oh i can get a charge" "oh we can get a table" and I know that was one of my reasons to get the bus, but especially with the unreability of the fleet and the ex-london buses which are awful inside and wouldnt want to go on them.
(28 Oct 2023, 11:48 pm)Storx Ah just realised those weird block houses off Portsmead Road aren't, always thought they were. Similar to some where I live and they are up here.
It's a strange area as it's very similar to Stakeford and the West end of Ashington in terms of housing. The only difference is one can somehow manage 3 buses an hour with investment every other year and is actually above pre Covid levels and the other doesn't have anything.
I don't really sell of the car excuse anyway tbh. Cramlington can somehow manage a bus service and so can Kingston Park with it's 4 express buses an hour and that's all 1970's/1980's car in mind housing or Ponteland and it's 2 BPH.
Density of course I agree, running 4 BPH to Consett via a bunch of villages is always going to have it's problems, but these are pretty much urban and sub urban routes areas throughout.
Gonna reply in the other thread as it fits there better.
(28 Oct 2023, 11:48 pm)Storx Ah just realised those weird block houses off Portsmead Road aren't, always thought they were. Similar to some where I live and they are up here.
It's a strange area as it's very similar to Stakeford and the West end of Ashington in terms of housing. The only difference is one can somehow manage 3 buses an hour with investment every other year and is actually above pre Covid levels and the other doesn't have anything.
I don't really sell of the car excuse anyway tbh. Cramlington can somehow manage a bus service and so can Kingston Park with it's 4 express buses an hour and that's all 1970's/1980's car in mind housing or Ponteland and it's 2 BPH.
Density of course I agree, running 4 BPH to Consett via a bunch of villages is always going to have it's problems, but these are pretty much urban and sub urban routes areas throughout.
Gonna reply in the other thread as it fits there better.
(29 Oct 2023, 12:08 am)Unber43 51/52 stop serving Newcastle was a bad decisionAnd it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.
(29 Oct 2023, 12:08 am)Unber43 51/52 stop serving Newcastle was a bad decisionAnd it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.
(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.All the NE network from Whitby to Ashington needs to be under control of one company - I would call it Go North East (i think its the best name) and it needs to be all local councils coming together and building a decent network while keeping major flagship services connected, through branding and route numbers)
A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.
The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.
Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk
(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.All the NE network from Whitby to Ashington needs to be under control of one company - I would call it Go North East (i think its the best name) and it needs to be all local councils coming together and building a decent network while keeping major flagship services connected, through branding and route numbers)
A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.
The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.
Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk
(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.
A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.
The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.
Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk
(29 Oct 2023, 1:04 am)Adrian And it's far from an isolated incident. The company has been making bad decisions for more than a decade now.
A rudderless ship; chopping and changing course, no real plan, and an ultimate destination that's a pipe dream.
The latest line seems to be that North East drivers aren't as productive as those elsewhere. It's a good job they don't do performance related pay, because with the current state of affairs, the directors would end up owing the company money.
Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk
Wow been away for couple of days and that was a long read
Couple of things though
Someone mention the great partk.... If you can afford a house on the great park ( starting from 325000 i belive) you can afford a taxi to where your going or even to the first stop with an arriva service. Alos all these new developments.. people who buy a house for 250000 plus with a double garage and 2 parking spaces arnt going to use the bus!!
I also agree with Storx that nexus shouldn't be burdened with covering commercial routes - the soon franchising comes in the better!
(29 Oct 2023, 8:16 am)Rob44 Someone mention the great partk.... If you can afford a house on the great park ( starting from 325000 i belive) you can afford a taxi to where your going or even to the first stop with an arriva service. Alos all these new developments.. people who buy a house for 250000 plus with a double garage and 2 parking spaces arnt going to use the bus!!
(29 Oct 2023, 8:16 am)Rob44 Someone mention the great partk.... If you can afford a house on the great park ( starting from 325000 i belive) you can afford a taxi to where your going or even to the first stop with an arriva service. Alos all these new developments.. people who buy a house for 250000 plus with a double garage and 2 parking spaces arnt going to use the bus!!
(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC Absolutely this.
While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.
No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus.
Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC Absolutely this.
While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.
No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus.
Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC Absolutely this.But people learning to drive has decreased steadly since 2016/7 and its still going down, and with the prices going up when I was learning it was £30 an hour and my driving instructer just before i passed was putting it upto £35 an hour, and I can see why people cannot afford it, its over 3x the minimum wage.
While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.
No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus.
Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
(29 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm)MurdnunoC Absolutely this.But people learning to drive has decreased steadly since 2016/7 and its still going down, and with the prices going up when I was learning it was £30 an hour and my driving instructer just before i passed was putting it upto £35 an hour, and I can see why people cannot afford it, its over 3x the minimum wage.
While some on here bang on about buses not taking people where they want to go, we mustn't overlook the fact that planners and schedulers could spend millions on surveys finding out where people wanted to go - thus solving the problem - only to find that people are still not using the bus services on a network that has been redesigned and ostensibly improved.
No matter what you do, people are not going to give up the convenience and utility that the car offers. Let's face it, if you can afford to run a car, then you're probably not going to use a bus.
Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
