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(06 Oct 2019, 1:44 pm)Michael wrote
5 more Brighton and Hove deckers are joining the fleet...
Wonder what they'll replace?
They've arrived at Consett depot.
Might get rid of those awful ex London DD. 6915-6919. Capacity restraint on the st Bedes scholars whilst they’ve been on.
(06 Oct 2019, 2:15 pm)JP6004 wrote
The Vykings?
Not really much of an improvement though is it.
After reading it again, he may have meant the 'introducing several pre-owned buses' to be completely separate from 'improving reliability and reducing our average fleet age'
(06 Oct 2019, 2:24 pm)streetdeckfan wrote
Not really much of an improvement though is it.
After reading it again, he may have meant the 'introducing several pre-owned buses' to be completely separate from 'improving reliability and reducing our average fleet age'
It says a lot about your current fleet, if 15 year old buses are seen as an improvement.
And I bet these don't have illuminated front logos.
(06 Oct 2019, 2:45 pm)Adrian wrote
It says a lot about your current fleet, if 15 year old buses are seen as an improvement.
And I bet these don't have illuminated front logos.
(06 Oct 2019, 3:30 pm)Dan wrote I wouldn't say it says a lot about the fleet, more so gives an indication of the type of services that the company operates. No operator could sustainably operate brand new buses on scholars services, which is predominantly what these buses will be allocated to.
These Scania OmniDekkas are replacing Volvo B7s which are between 2-4 years older (some of which are dual-door so not ideal for the frontline service work they invariably end up being allocated to, from time to time). I'd say that's an improvement - not just for passengers, but driving staff and engineering colleagues too. Plenty life in them yet (they drove all the way from Brighton to Consett at 60mph without a hitch!)
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I don't think anybody is suggesting brand new (or even nearly new for that matter), but these are neither. At 15 years old, they're merely survivors from the grasp of the Grim Reaper.
Its by no means just GNE using ancient buses on public sector contracts of course. There's plenty of schools contracts in Durham issued to operators using vehicles 20 years old and beyond. Hopefully with declaring a climate emergency lately, they and others will start to look at stipulating stricter minimum standards on vehicles used for public sector work.
(06 Oct 2019, 6:45 pm)Adrian wrote
I don't think anybody is suggesting brand new (or even nearly new for that matter), but these are neither. At 15 years old, they're merely survivors from the grasp of the Grim Reaper.
Its by no means just GNE using ancient buses on public sector contracts of course. There's plenty of schools contracts in Durham issued to operators using vehicles 20 years old and beyond. Hopefully with declaring a climate emergency lately, they and others will start to look at stipulating stricter minimum standards on vehicles used for public sector work.
I've just been looking at the fleet list, appreciate this source is not up to date however from a few workings out of what is already withdrawn in fleet there is around 140 vehicles in the fleet that are between 13 and 18 years old.
Around 100 of them are double deckers which are used on Scholars/Misc Works and as already pointed out used in front line service on occasion.
Quite crazy to think in 2019 that operators are still buying vehicles which are past the sell by date for Scholars whereas other operators elsewhere in the country such as Lothian Buses, Blackpool Transport and Nottingham City Transport as examples in the last few years and have heavily invested in their fleets in order to reduce fleet age. Iirc Blackpool Transport annouced earlier in the year there fleet will be replaced every 4 years, so any new vehicles they have purchased in 2019 will be with them until 2023.
I also had a look on Ensign's website earlier and Nottingham City Transport have sold 11 year old Omnidekka's to them following investment in their fleet. Lothian Buses in the last year have gotten rid of all of their Presidents, Omnidekka's along with their B7 Geminis following heavy investment in there fleet.
Absolutely agree with you Adrian that stricter regulations are needed going forward for what buses can be used on contracts such as Scholars/Misc Work, iirc the minimum requirement at the minute is Euro 4, lift that to Euro 5 and introduce as age restriction limit of 10 years old for buses which can be used on those contracts.
(06 Oct 2019, 7:49 pm)Arcticrossy92 wrote
Whats the interior like on this, is it high spec and matching the new Enviro's?
(06 Oct 2019, 8:22 pm)NewcastleOne wrote
They’re both ex Demos so have the Demonstrator interiors
(06 Oct 2019, 7:57 pm)Michael wrote I asked the same thing this morning and never got a answer. lol
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When will the Metrocity enter service on the 53/54?
But to be fair, it has recently been pointed out that this is 'Latest News & Discussion' - not a Q&A thread for employees of the company.
When it enters service, I am sure someone will post about it... likewise when the Enviro enters service, I am sure someone will post details of any interior changes.
(06 Oct 2019, 8:52 pm)Adrian wrote
But to be fair, it has recently been pointed out that this is 'Latest News & Discussion' - not a Q&A thread for employees of the company.
When it enters service, I am sure someone will post about it... likewise when the Enviro enters service, I am sure someone will post details of any interior changes.
(06 Oct 2019, 7:15 pm)Malarkey wrote
I've just been looking at the fleet list, appreciate this source is not up to date however from a few workings out of what is already withdrawn in fleet there is around 140 vehicles in the fleet that are between 13 and 18 years old.
Around 100 of them are double deckers which are used on Scholars/Misc Works and as already pointed out used in front line service on occasion.
Quite crazy to think in 2019 that operators are still buying vehicles which are past the sell by date for Scholars whereas other operators elsewhere in the country such as Lothian Buses, Blackpool Transport and Nottingham City Transport as examples in the last few years and have heavily invested in their fleets in order to reduce fleet age. Iirc Blackpool Transport annouced earlier in the year there fleet will be replaced every 4 years, so any new vehicles they have purchased in 2019 will be with them until 2023.
I also had a look on Ensign's website earlier and Nottingham City Transport have sold 11 year old Omnidekka's to them following investment in their fleet. Lothian Buses in the last year have gotten rid of all of their Presidents, Omnidekka's along with their B7 Geminis following heavy investment in there fleet.
Absolutely agree with you Adrian that stricter regulations are needed going forward for what buses can be used on contracts such as Scholars/Misc Work, iirc the minimum requirement at the minute is Euro 4, lift that to Euro 5 and introduce as age restriction limit of 10 years old for buses which can be used on those contracts.
Don’t know the answer to this but, are Blackpool, Lothian and Nottingham City transport owned by regional councils, so no shareholders etc?, maybe if true and they weren’t publicly owned then they might need to hold on to buses longer?.
(06 Oct 2019, 9:20 pm)Stanleyone wrote
Don’t know the answer to this but, are Blackpool, Lothian and Nottingham City transport owned by regional councils, so no shareholders etc?, maybe if true and they weren’t publicly owned then they might need to hold on to buses longer?.
Yep all 3 council own but NCT is partly owned by a private company (18%,??)
(06 Oct 2019, 9:09 pm)Rapidsnap wrote I notice these are standard length Omnidekkas compared the long ones previously received. No doubt replaced by those new ADL deckers.
Yep the longer lengths have gone/in the process of going to Go South Coast (BlueStar) for college runs.
(06 Oct 2019, 10:51 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Is it just me that thinks it's a bit hypocritical that GNE can go on about how they're investing all this money in new buses that are better for the environment, and still acquire 15 year old examples for scholars services?
Sure, they're better than what they're replacing, but not by that much.
Would it not make more sense to invest in some newer vehicles (they don't even have to be brand new) than keep buying vehicles that are on their last legs?
(06 Oct 2019, 10:51 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Is it just me that thinks it's a bit hypocritical that GNE can go on about how they're investing all this money in new buses that are better for the environment, and still acquire 15 year old examples for scholars services?
Sure, they're better than what they're replacing, but not by that much.
Would it not make more sense to invest in some newer vehicles (they don't even have to be brand new) than keep buying vehicles that are on their last legs?
In my opinion you’ve answered your point. Scholars services (1 run in & 1 run out), not being bought for front line services. 33 brand new buses (if the streetdecks come) don’t come cheap removing some of the oldest buses from front line services, not forgetting in most cases adding WiFi and usb charging in the process.
(07 Oct 2019, 4:40 am)Dan wrote I mean, the alternative is to not invest at all, like other operators in the region!
Putting any bias to one side; in the current economic climate, the level of investment Go North East is putting into new Euro 6 vehicles, newer pre-owned bus acquisitions and Euro 6 exhaust modifications is commendable.
These are the only suitable double-decks available within the group at the moment. It isn't too long ago when much newer Volvo B9s were acquired from Go-Ahead London (and repainted/refurbished/converted to single door before entering service).
Other factors, such as cost, also have to come into consideration when newer buses are available (how has the company priced its scholars contract tenders this year, will a profit still be delivered if newer buses are acquired for the operation of said contracts, etc).
The five buses acquired yesterday really aren't on their last legs and I'm not sure where this misconception has come from. To run at 60mph all the way from Brighton to Consett is a pretty hard job for a bus, but all five managed it without difficulty (just like every single one of those OmniDekkas has over the last few years, bar one or two!)
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It would be interesting to see the fixed costs of operating a scholars service vs the variable costs i.e fuel economy savings in using different vehicle types and their Euro rating.
I appreciate the scholars services have that element of inelasticity in them, in that a bigger proportion of passengers will not have an alternative transport offer, compared to punters on the X30 say.
By virtue of this, the operator will want to put the shiny, appealing option in to service work at a similar time of day, in the hope of retaining and growing the market share.
To balance that, you then have those scholars moving on and their opinion of public transport will be based on previous experiences - such as their scholars bus, which was potentially older than they are and wasn't at all shiny or appealing internally.
(07 Oct 2019, 8:06 am)Andreos1 wrote
It would be interesting to see the fixed costs of operating a scholars service vs the variable costs i.e fuel economy savings in using different vehicle types and their Euro rating.
I appreciate the scholars services have that element of inelasticity in them, in that a bigger proportion of passengers will not have an alternative transport offer, compared to punters on the X30 say.
By virtue of this, the operator will want to put the shiny, appealing option in to service work at a similar time of day, in the hope of retaining and growing the market share.
To balance that, you then have those scholars moving on and their opinion of public transport will be based on previous experiences - such as their scholars bus, which was potentially older than they are and wasn't at all shiny or appealing internally.
The vehicle type will have little effect on their use in the future. It depends on previous exposure to public transport.
Any children who have always been driven round by mammy and daddy will probably never step on a bus unless they have no other option.
Anyway I think a big point that everyone is missing. Prior to 2011 there was almost a decade long gap in the order of new DD (excluding the original Geminis 05/06 reg). Since 2011 new or ex-dealer DD have been acquired every financial year. However a handful have gone to upgrading single deck services to DD (10, 56, 309/310), which has lead to the generally younger single deck age as opposed to DD. No doubt with continued DD investment, it wont be too far in the future where the B9s go into scholars work.
Lets not forget also, a few years ago when GNE had very little school contracts, great swaithes of older DD were withdrawn. Obviously they have had to build up their DD for the new scholars work. But even if GNE were as rich as a Russian Oligarch and could afford to buy new DD for scholars every year, do you think that the short timescale from tenders being awarded to start of new school year is a bit short notice? From order to delivery, do you think they would manage to have them for service at start of new term?
I think if the contracts weren't awarded on a yearly basis then, there may be definite scope for improving scholars, however we have seen how things can change year to year. However surely anything to reduce fleet age should be welcome? Or would we much rather the Vykings to still be kicking round in another 5 years?
(07 Oct 2019, 9:42 am)JP6004 wrote
The vehicle type will have little effect on their use in the future. It depends on previous exposure to public transport.
Any children who have always been driven round by mammy and daddy will probably never step on a bus unless they have no other option.
Anyway I think a big point that everyone is missing. Prior to 2011 there was almost a decade long gap in the order of new DD (excluding the original Geminis 05/06 reg). Since 2011 new or ex-dealer DD have been acquired every financial year. However a handful have gone to upgrading single deck services to DD (10, 56, 309/310), which has lead to the generally younger single deck age as opposed to DD. No doubt with continued DD investment, it wont be too far in the future where the B9s go into scholars work.
Lets not forget also, a few years ago when GNE had very little school contracts, great swaithes of older DD were withdrawn. Obviously they have had to build up their DD for the new scholars work. But even if GNE were as rich as a Russian Oligarch and could afford to buy new DD for scholars every year, do you think that the short timescale from tenders being awarded to start of new school year is a bit short notice? From order to delivery, do you think they would manage to have them for service at start of new term?
I think if the contracts weren't awarded on a yearly basis then, there may be definite scope for improving scholars, however we have seen how things can change year to year. However surely anything to reduce fleet age should be welcome? Or would we much rather the Vykings to still be kicking round in another 5 years?
(07 Oct 2019, 10:03 am)Michael wrote The B9's will likely be in a spare role by at least 2025, as there's still 38 Omnidekka's (that includes the 5 which have just arrived), 24 Presidents , 8 Vykings in the fleet, it would of been less in the next couple of months, but because Wrightbus collapsed, they'll probables won't be withdrawn now but hopefully Wrightbus is saved by end of this week, and that sets the motion for them to get withdrawn.
Yes there would be a few older DD due for withdrawal, however the B9s are being used to upgrade single deck allocations, which will reduce the single deck fleet age from 18yrs to 13yrs. Id imagine once X1 DD arrive next year, this will lead to further older DD being withdrawn and further reduction of fleet age
To those saying about the older bus fleets compared to other areas I could imagine it's more to the way the North East is. Most bus routes are very one way at peak times ie. into town in the morning, out at the evening and carrying fresh air the other direction. There's not much you can do about that plus having the hospital and university in the centre aswell which doesn't help flow which isn't the same for Nottingham and Edinburgh - not to mention having the Metro aswell.
Blackpool and Lothian pretty much have a monopoly aswell.
All the flagshit routes pretty much in the north east have 2 directional flows for GNE;
309 / 310 - Cobalt / Newcastle
56 - Sunderland / Newcastle
21 / X21 - Durham / Newcastle
20 / X20 - Durham / Sunderland
X10 - Teeside / Newcastle
10 - Newcastle / Metro Centre
X66 - Gateshead / Metro Centre
Similar for Arriva
7 - Durham / Darlington
X66 - Darlington / Middlesbrough
308 - Silverlink / Newcastle
X7 / X8 - Newcastle / Quorum
64 - Durham / Arnison
The X10/X11/X21/X22 being the out ones out but the morning journeys out of town are dead and same the opposite way at peak times. It's the reason I guess why we have little bus routes in the evenings in some areas and only 2 night buses.
It's no wonder the North East in general don't make much money but it's just the layout the things are and there's not much you can do about it whereas places like Yorkshire have multiple cities / towns to connect inbetween Wakefield / Leeds, Leeds / Bradford for example so have 2 directional flows hence why we wont get as much investment as other areas.
(07 Oct 2019, 10:17 am)JP6004 wrote
Yes there would be a few older DD due for withdrawal, however the B9s are being used to upgrade single deck allocations, which will reduce the single deck fleet age from 18yrs to 13yrs. Id imagine once X1 DD arrive next year, this will lead to further older DD being withdrawn and further reduction of fleet age
