(01 Mar 2020, 4:50 pm)Dan wrote Maybe I'm biased then, as I disagree. There are numerous articles online which attribute improving customer experience, by way of more premium specification features on-board buses, to revenue growth.

A couple of Arriva examples, admittedly in the trade press a few years old now, are below:
https://cbwmagazine.com/arriva-goes-max/
https://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/arriva-...re-growth/

In my opinion; providing a reliable bus service that goes to the places its users want to go to, maintains revenue. Operators have to do more to protect that revenue and grow it. Schemes such as Arriva's 'Sapphire' and 'MAX' - and more recently Go North East's 'X-lines' - aim to provide a better customer experience for the operators' passengers, with the view of boosting revenue.

Sadly merely maintaining existing passenger numbers and/or revenue is not sustainable. Bus operators' costs rise every year with employees' pay rises alone. That's before you consider other factors, such as fuel, insurance, etc. Operators need to do something more than provide a basic bus service to increase patronage to make this affordable, and I'd argue investing in new buses and refurbishing existing buses with better features, definitely contribute to doing this.

Clearly some operators see no other alternative but to reduce service levels in order to reduce costs and in turn maintain profit levels. This is a last resort, I'm sure, as operators know that reducing service levels will see a reduction in passenger numbers and hence revenue.

I imagine what customers ultimately want is a bus service that is reliable, frequent and at low fares. Things like WiFi, USBs etc are nice to have, but I think the most important thing is the actual atmosphere on buses now. 

5-10 years ago you had dimly lit buses, majority of which had traditional bench seats or low back individual seating. It wasn't an awful place to be, but by no means was it overly pleasant. Contrast that to what we're seeing now - better lit saloons, more comfortable seating, more reliable heating systems, NSAs, fewer rattles, CCTV so typically less vandalism. High specs, such as WiFi and USBs will then help when people are on the bus too. 

I don't live on any GNE routes, but I know when Arriva launched their Sapphire routes they heavily marketed them with leaflets through doors containing free day tickets and timetables - getting people back onto the buses for free one time, then the simplicity of bus travel now combined with a pleasant atmosphere likely brings them back.

(01 Mar 2020, 4:50 pm)Dan wrote Maybe I'm biased then, as I disagree. There are numerous articles online which attribute improving customer experience, by way of more premium specification features on-board buses, to revenue growth. 

A couple of Arriva examples, admittedly in the trade press a few years old now, are below:
https://cbwmagazine.com/arriva-goes-max/
https://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/arriva-...re-growth/

In my opinion; providing a reliable bus service that goes to the places its users want to go to, maintains revenue. Operators have to do more to protect that revenue and grow it. Schemes such as Arriva's 'Sapphire' and 'MAX' - and more recently Go North East's 'X-lines' - aim to provide a better customer experience for the operators' passengers, with the view of boosting revenue.

Sadly merely maintaining existing passenger numbers and/or revenue is not sustainable. Bus operators' costs rise every year with employees' pay rises alone. That's before you consider other factors, such as fuel, insurance, etc. Operators need to do something more than provide a basic bus service to increase patronage to make this affordable, and I'd argue investing in new buses and refurbishing existing buses with better features, definitely contribute to doing this.

Clearly some operators see no other alternative but to reduce service levels in order to reduce costs and in turn maintain profit levels. This is a last resort, I'm sure, as operators know that reducing service levels will see a reduction in passenger numbers and hence revenue.

The very same premium features, of which the majority are now standard in cars?
The same cars which can take you from A-B without having to faff on going via C on the bus and paying for the privelage?

If going from A-B on the bus was as quick as the car and was able to be achieved without paying the sorts of prices we see currently (see the Houghton - Durham/Chester/Newcastle single fare examples I've mentioned many a time), then maybe more people would make the switch.

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(01 Mar 2020, 5:16 pm)mb134 wrote I imagine what customers ultimately want is a bus service that is reliable, frequent and at low fares. Things like WiFi, USBs etc are nice to have, but I think the most important thing is the actual atmosphere on buses now. 

5-10 years ago you had dimly lit buses, majority of which had traditional bench seats or low back individual seating. It wasn't an awful place to be, but by no means was it overly pleasant. Contrast that to what we're seeing now - better lit saloons, more comfortable seating, more reliable heating systems, NSAs, fewer rattles, CCTV so typically less vandalism. High specs, such as WiFi and USBs will then help when people are on the bus too. 

I don't live on any GNE routes, but I know when Arriva launched their Sapphire routes they heavily marketed them with leaflets through doors containing free day tickets and timetables - getting people back onto the buses for free one time, then the simplicity of bus travel now combined with a pleasant atmosphere likely brings them back.

It's what I would like. I imagine a fair few others too.

(01 Mar 2020, 3:23 pm)Big O wrote I agree, it’s all ridiculous to be fair and only someone biased or trying to impress their overheads could disagree.

A bus will always be a bus, no one really likes them and gets on one because it’s has tables or WiFi. Run them on time and to places people actually want to go and you’ll get a return on your investment. I don’t use the WiFi on public vehicles anyway because it isn’t secure and data can easily be interfered with.

Er...? (looks up screen at url)

(01 Mar 2020, 8:51 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Er...? (looks up screen at url)

 
I hope you're smart enough to realise I'm talking about the average passenger, which is the subject line of my debate? Oh dear.

(01 Mar 2020, 3:23 pm)Big O wrote I agree, it’s all ridiculous to be fair and only someone biased or trying to impress their overheads could disagree.

A bus will always be a bus, no one really likes them and gets on one because it’s has tables or WiFi. Run them on time and to places people actually want to go and you’ll get a return on your investment. I don’t use the WiFi on public vehicles anyway because it isn’t secure and data can easily be interfered with.

I tell you what, on a 30+ mile/2 hour journey that table and WiFi makes a hell of a difference!
I can get my laptop/tablet out and get work done, I can eat food and not have it go everywhere, I have somewhere to put my phone when it's on charge. If you take a trip on the X21, you'll see that the tables are usually full, with people using them. Now, the X30 not so much as it's a shorter journey, but people certainly use them, and the extra leg room is most certainly appreciated!
If I check the GNE app and see that it's not a bus with a table, I'll wait for the next one!

Do you honestly think that bus operators don't want to run their buses on time? 99% of the time the reason for the delay is completely out of their control. In my experience, it's actually very rare that a bus I want to get is late, and if it is it's only by a minute or two.

You may be too paranoid to use public WiFi, but as long as a website uses HTTPS it's impossible to have your data 'interfered with', and there are very few websites these days that don't use it! Even NEB uses HTTPS.
Plus, what you have to remember is a lot of people may not have a lot of mobile data, so that extra 100mb (as pathetic as that amount is) could be really important to them.

(01 Mar 2020, 4:50 pm)Dan wrote In my opinion; providing a reliable bus service that goes to the places its users want to go to, maintains revenue. Operators have to do more to protect that revenue and grow it. Schemes such as Arriva's 'Sapphire' and 'MAX' - and more recently Go North East's 'X-lines' - aim to provide a better customer experience for the operators' passengers, with the view of boosting revenue.

It's not often I agree with Dan, but I 100% agree with having to provide a better customer experience.
But the issue is they have to maintain that enhanced customer experience, look at Arriva Sapphire for example, from my experience with the Arriva 6 it's a lucky dip whether the NSA works (most of the time it doesn't!), the buses are rarely clean, USB/240v sockets rarely work, and that assumes you even get a Sapphire spec bus on the route!
I think GNE do a much better job at this, with even their 'new' standard spec vehicles equalling, or even surpassing Arriva's Sapphire spec, so when a vehicle is replaced it's almost guaranteed to have the same features. (Unless it's the X21! Those new buses can't come soon enough!)

(02 Mar 2020, 6:12 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I tell you what, on a 30+ mile/2 hour journey that table and WiFi makes a hell of a difference!
I can get my laptop/tablet out and get work done, I can eat food and not have it go everywhere, I have somewhere to put my phone when it's on charge. If you take a trip on the X21, you'll see that the tables are usually full, with people using them. Now, the X30 not so much as it's a shorter journey, but people certainly use them, and the extra leg room is most certainly appreciated!
If I check the GNE app and see that it's not a bus with a table, I'll wait for the next one!

Do you honestly think that bus operators don't want to run their buses on time? 99% of the time the reason for the delay is completely out of their control. In my experience, it's actually very rare that a bus I want to get is late, and if it is it's only by a minute or two.

You may be too paranoid to use public WiFi, but as long as a website uses HTTPS it's impossible to have your data 'interfered with', and there are very few websites these days that don't use it! Even NEB uses HTTPS.
Plus, what you have to remember is a lot of people may not have a lot of mobile data, so that extra 100mb (as pathetic as that amount is) could be really important to them.


It's not often I agree with Dan, but I 100% agree with having to provide a better customer experience.
But the issue is they have to maintain that enhanced customer experience, look at Arriva Sapphire for example, from my experience with the Arriva 6 it's a lucky dip whether the NSA works (most of the time it doesn't!), the buses are rarely clean, USB/240v sockets rarely work, and that assumes you even get a Sapphire spec bus on the route!
I think GNE do a much better job at this, with even their 'new' standard spec vehicles equalling, or even surpassing Arriva's Sapphire spec, so when a vehicle is replaced it's almost guaranteed to have the same features. (Unless it's the X21! Those new buses can't come soon enough!)

You say that as if there is some sort of option to fold them in, the tables are planted into the structure of the bus, I have sat a table before, not because I liked it, there was just no other space to sit at and while they are a nice addition to those who like it, I would rather cheaper and more reliable services and when I speak to my family who are not remotely interested in buses, they say the same.

(02 Mar 2020, 8:01 pm)Big O wrote You say that as if there is some sort of option to fold them in, the tables are planted into the structure of the bus, I have sat a table before, not because I liked it, there was just no other space to sit at and while they are a nice addition to those who like it, I would rather cheaper and more reliable services and when I speak to my family who are not remotely interested in buses, they say the same.

Not including such provisions on buses wouldn’t mean fares could be lowered. Reducing everyone’s fare by 10p would come at a much greater cost than fitting a whole batch of buses used on one route with USB charging points.


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(02 Mar 2020, 6:12 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I tell you what, on a 30+ mile/2 hour journey that table and WiFi makes a hell of a difference!
I can get my laptop/tablet out and get work done, I can eat food and not have it go everywhere, I have somewhere to put my phone when it's on charge. If you take a trip on the X21, you'll see that the tables are usually full, with people using them. Now, the X30 not so much as it's a shorter journey, but people certainly use them, and the extra leg room is most certainly appreciated!
If I check the GNE app and see that it's not a bus with a table, I'll wait for the next one!

Do you honestly think that bus operators don't want to run their buses on time? 99% of the time the reason for the delay is completely out of their control. In my experience, it's actually very rare that a bus I want to get is late, and if it is it's only by a minute or two.

You may be too paranoid to use public WiFi, but as long as a website uses HTTPS it's impossible to have your data 'interfered with', and there are very few websites these days that don't use it! Even NEB uses HTTPS.
Plus, what you have to remember is a lot of people may not have a lot of mobile data, so that extra 100mb (as pathetic as that amount is) could be really important to them.


It's not often I agree with Dan, but I 100% agree with having to provide a better customer experience.
But the issue is they have to maintain that enhanced customer experience, look at Arriva Sapphire for example, from my experience with the Arriva 6 it's a lucky dip whether the NSA works (most of the time it doesn't!), the buses are rarely clean, USB/240v sockets rarely work, and that assumes you even get a Sapphire spec bus on the route!
I think GNE do a much better job at this, with even their 'new' standard spec vehicles equalling, or even surpassing Arriva's Sapphire spec, so when a vehicle is replaced it's almost guaranteed to have the same features. (Unless it's the X21! Those new buses can't come soon enough!)

It might work for some. For others, it doesn't. Comes down to that elastic/inelastic passenger thing again. 

If I apply a Cost Benefit Analysis to it, and identify whether or not the benefits of using the bus outweighs its costs, relative to alternatives. Then there's only one winner. 

I can charge my phone and be at a destination quicker and cheaper - in the car.
With the time saved, I can work effectively AND choose somewhere to eat. 
If I was a passenger cadging a lift, then I could eat and do work too. 

If I really wanted to get a lift off the in-laws, then their Nissan Note has plenty leg room (in addition to the charging points etc) and there's even tables with cup holders in the back. 


I appreciate a Nissan Note is hardly the epitome of luxury, but it has all those 'premium' features the X21 has and the journey is cheaper. 

Cost, Benefits and all that jazz. 
If it works for business, then let's use it from a customer perspective.

(02 Mar 2020, 9:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote It might work for some. For others, it doesn't. Comes down to that elastic/inelastic passenger thing again. 

If I apply a Cost Benefit Analysis to it, and identify whether or not the benefits of using the bus outweighs its costs, relative to alternatives. Then there's only one winner. 

I can charge my phone and be at a destination quicker and cheaper - in the car.
With the time saved, I can work effectively AND choose somewhere to eat. 
If I was a passenger cadging a lift, then I could eat and do work too. 

If I really wanted to get a lift off the in-laws, then their Nissan Note has plenty leg room (in addition to the charging points etc) and there's even tables with cup holders in the back. 


I appreciate a Nissan Note is hardly the epitome of luxury, but it has all those 'premium' features the X21 has and the journey is cheaper. 

Cost, Benefits and all that jazz. 
If it works for business, then let's use it from a customer perspective.

The journey being cheaper depends on the journey. Interestingly it cos me the same to travel into Newcastle, on the same bus, as streetdeckfan, with me travelling from Fram and him from the arse end of bishop. Driving would use twice as much fuel for him as for me but I still consider my £6.30 days aver to be quite reasonable when you consider the price of parking in Newcastle. If I travel in with Husband, the cost of the bus for both of us is still OK compared with fuel plus parking and means he can have a beer with his lunch, if he wants. One of the reasons we moved to this side of Durham was to make it feasible for him to work on tyneside and use public transport for part of his journey, as that's where a lot of the jobs in his industry, using his skill set, are. As it is, he works on teesside and it doesn't matter what it costs to take the bus because he's blown if he's setting off the night before to get to work on time!

(02 Mar 2020, 9:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote It might work for some. For others, it doesn't. Comes down to that elastic/inelastic passenger thing again. 

If I apply a Cost Benefit Analysis to it, and identify whether or not the benefits of using the bus outweighs its costs, relative to alternatives. Then there's only one winner. 

I can charge my phone and be at a destination quicker and cheaper - in the car.
With the time saved, I can work effectively AND choose somewhere to eat. 
If I was a passenger cadging a lift, then I could eat and do work too. 

If I really wanted to get a lift off the in-laws, then their Nissan Note has plenty leg room (in addition to the charging points etc) and there's even tables with cup holders in the back. 


I appreciate a Nissan Note is hardly the epitome of luxury, but it has all those 'premium' features the X21 has and the journey is cheaper. 

Cost, Benefits and all that jazz. 
If it works for business, then let's use it from a customer perspective.

Try putting a laptop on the table in a Nissan Note (I've tried, it's not possible!), heck try even using a laptop in the back seat of a car, that's pretty difficult too! 

I'm not even going to get in to the discussion over price again even though that's the name of this topic (as I've already said many times that for MY journeys, it's far cheaper to travel by bus than car)

(02 Mar 2020, 11:04 pm)BusLoverMum wrote The journey being cheaper depends on the journey. Interestingly it cos me the same to travel into Newcastle, on the same bus, as streetdeckfan, with me travelling from Fram and him from the arse end of bishop. Driving would use twice as much fuel for him as for me but I still consider my £6.30 days aver to be quite reasonable when you consider the price of parking in Newcastle. If I travel in with Husband, the cost of the bus for both of us is still OK compared with fuel plus parking and means he can have a beer with his lunch, if he wants. One of the reasons we moved to this side of Durham was to make it feasible for him to work on tyneside and use public transport for part of his journey, as that's where a lot of the jobs in his industry, using his skill set, are. As it is, he works on teesside and it doesn't matter what it costs to take the bus because he's blown if he's setting off the night before to get to work on time!

I mean, you're not wrong about it being the arse end judging by the state of my neighbours! 

For some people, the convenience of not having to drive is worth travelling by bus for, your example of being able to have a drink with lunch is perfect.

For me, being able to work on the bus for 2 hours vs having to 'waste' 45 minutes in the car, even if I get to the destination an hour earlier, is worth it as it's still 45 minutes less time I can charge for! (which at minimum wage is £6.15, more than the cost of a single on the X21)

Sorry but the usb charging lacks one thing. The ability to charge a mobile phone.

It's a shame they've moved away from a standard plug socket.

(03 Mar 2020, 8:03 am)idiot wrote Sorry but the usb charging lacks one thing. The ability to charge a mobile phone.

It's a shame they've moved away from a standard plug socket.

The three pin plugs rarely work I'm fine with the USBs charging my phone slowly then that at all

(03 Mar 2020, 9:39 am)Ds1197 wrote The three pin plugs rarely work I'm fine with the USBs charging my phone slowly then that at all

I second that, USBs at least work more often. The amount of charge you get from USBs seems to vary from bus to bus I've, I'll get on one and will charge as you would expect but then get another and it pretty much just holds the charge or even goes down you are doing something whilst charging.

(03 Mar 2020, 8:03 am)idiot wrote Sorry but the usb charging lacks one thing. The ability to charge a mobile phone.

It's a shame they've moved away from a standard plug socket.

The 240V sockets were really useful for charging other things like cameras, but I've found that quite a lot of times drivers have forgot to switch them on (I believe they have to turn them back on every time they turn the engine on)
The USB ports honestly aren't that bad, assuming they work! But far too many of them have had bits of paper stuck in them or the plastic tabs snapped off completely so they're unusable.

(02 Mar 2020, 11:04 pm)BusLoverMum wrote The journey being cheaper depends on the journey. Interestingly it cos me the same to travel into Newcastle, on the same bus, as streetdeckfan, with me travelling from Fram and him from the arse end of bishop. Driving would use twice as much fuel for him as for me but I still consider my £6.30 days aver to be quite reasonable when you consider the price of parking in Newcastle. If I travel in with Husband, the cost of the bus for both of us is still OK compared with fuel plus parking and means he can have a beer with his lunch, if he wants. One of the reasons we moved to this side of Durham was to make it feasible for him to work on tyneside and use public transport for part of his journey, as that's where a lot of the jobs in his industry, using his skill set, are. As it is, he works on teesside and it doesn't matter what it costs to take the bus because he's blown if he's setting off the night before to get to work on time!

Some interesting points there. 
Quite amazed that you would pay the same from Fram as streetdeckfan fan does from the arse end of Bishop, yet others (myself included) who don't have a direct bus to Newcastle need to buy a ticket which costs £7.00, involves a change of buses and can take twice as long as the same journey in the car. Certainly not the sort of incentive to work away on the laptop. 

However stressful it can be relying on the connections, I have used a week-long ticket when working in the town for a week or two at a time. I do admit that those type of tickets are financially attractive, even if the journey isn't pleasant or relaxing at all.

(02 Mar 2020, 11:43 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Try putting a laptop on the table in a Nissan Note (I've tried, it's not possible!), heck try even using a laptop in the back seat of a car, that's pretty difficult too! 

I'm not even going to get in to the discussion over price again even though that's the name of this topic (as I've already said many times that for MY journeys, it's far cheaper to travel by bus than car) 



I mean, you're not wrong about it being the arse end judging by the state of my neighbours! 

For some people, the convenience of not having to drive is worth travelling by bus for, your example of being able to have a drink with lunch is perfect.

For me, being able to work on the bus for 2 hours vs having to 'waste' 45 minutes in the car, even if I get to the destination an hour earlier, is worth it as it's still 45 minutes less time I can charge for! (which at minimum wage is £6.15, more than the cost of a single on the X21)

*indicates he's gonna stop talking about prices and then continues to talk about prices*

Seriously though, maybe you have highlighted an issue there. Maybe the operators have the same 'I'm all right Jack' attitude. It works for them, so stuff everyone else who it doesn't work for. Or, maybe they're just ignorant of the fact that it doesn't work for everyone.

As I said yesterday, when I apply a Cost Benefit Analysis, a number of journeys don't work. It's just not feasible at all. 
For others it will be. 

I'd argue that it needs to be feasible for the majority of the population (and not just the 'sort of passengers' they want - remember that 1% figure you seemed so happy to ignore).

The number of people operators shift versus the population they're not shifting has a huge disparity. 
Maybe offering pricing which is attractive for the majority (not just you) and their various needs (not just yours), is one way forward.

(03 Mar 2020, 11:19 am)Andreos1 wrote Some interesting points there. 
Quite amazed that you would pay the same from Fram as streetdeckfan fan does from the arse end of Bishop, yet others (myself included) who don't have a direct bus to Newcastle need to buy a ticket which costs £7.00, involves a change of buses and can take twice as long as the same journey in the car. Certainly not the sort of incentive to work away on the laptop. 


*indicates he's gonna stop talking about prices and then continues to talk about prices*

Seriously though, maybe you have highlighted an issue there. Maybe the operators have the same 'I'm all right Jack' attitude. It works for them, so stuff everyone else who it doesn't work for. Or, maybe they're just ignorant of the fact that it doesn't work for everyone.

As I said yesterday, when I apply a Cost Benefit Analysis, a number of journeys don't work. It's just not feasible at all. 
For others it will be. 

I'd argue that it needs to be feasible for the majority of the population (and not just the 'sort of passengers' they want - remember that 1% figure you seemed so happy to ignore).

The number of people operators shift versus the population they're not shifting has a huge disparity. 
Maybe offering pricing which is attractive for the majority (not just you) and their various needs (not just yours), is one way forward.

Another issue is the zone boundaries, areas which are quite close can have considerably different prices

Let's look at a few hypothetical commutes. If we assume an MPG of 40 for the journey, which is quite reasonable considering the type of roads

Blackhall Mill to Eldon Square- ~12.5 miles
By Car = ~£1.70 each way, so £3.40 for the return journey.
By Bus = £4.60 Single, or £5.30 return. Or, for the same price as the return you can get a Purple day ticket

Hamsterley Colliery to Eldon Square- ~12.5 miles
By Car = ~£1.70 each way, so £3.40 for the return journey.
By Bus = £3.60 Single, or £6.30 return. A day ticket is an extra £1.70 as it would require an all zone day ticket

By car from both places it is the same price (as they're less than a mile apart), but by bus the prices are quite different.
Because the journey from Hamsterley is over 2 zones, the price of the return ticket isn't capped at £5.30, so while the single ticket is £1 cheaper than from Blackhall Mill, the return is £1 more! Assuming they do that journey 5 times a week and therefore decide to buy the monthly ticket, that's an extra £20 a month for living less than 1 mile away. I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples of this, I just happened to know of that one from experience.

You'll also notice that both those journeys will always be cheaper by car, even when buying a monthly ticket, but I haven't take in to account the cost of parking in Newcastle, which I'm guessing for quite a lot of people won't be free, assuming it's available at all. Or the other costs of running a car.

(03 Mar 2020, 11:57 am)streetdeckfan wrote Or the other costs of running a car.

Its a little bit of an unfair fight unless you include everything else.

My costs per month:

Car: £300
Insurance: £35
Fuel: £100
Tax: £2 (rounded up, over 12 months)
Maintenance: £50 (rough estimate) 
Total cost: £487

Bus ticket: £95 

The only benefit of having a car is that its not public transport and its available whenever you want. Providing there is a regular enough service from GNE (Where my ticket cost is from) in the area you live and work then its hands down cheaper.

(03 Mar 2020, 1:31 pm)WheelBus1986 wrote Its a little bit of an unfair fight unless you include everything else.

My costs per month:

Car: £300
Insurance: £35
Fuel: £100
Tax: £2 (rounded up, over 12 months)
Maintenance: £50 (rough estimate) 
Total cost: £487

Bus ticket: £95 

The only benefit of having a car is that its not public transport and its available whenever you want. Providing there is a regular enough service from GNE (Where my ticket cost is from) in the area you live and work then its hands down cheaper.

The one time I don't include the other costs! (mainly because everybody else seems to be ignoring it as well!)

As I've said many times before, as a 'young person', even the cost of the insurance is more than I pay for my all zone ticket. So for someone like me, even if they didn't do the 60 miles a day I do, it's cheaper by bus

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I do 40 miles a day (just for work). I cannot do anything but absorb the cost currently as a 2 hour journey with 3 connections just isn't viable for me. Yes its possible to do, but the cost vs convenience calculation just doesnt work for me to get the bus.

Roll on April when we go down to 1 car!

(03 Mar 2020, 1:50 pm)WheelBus1986 wrote I do 40 miles a day (just for work). I cannot do anything but absorb the cost currently as a 2 hour journey with 3 connections just isn't viable for me. Yes its possible to do, but the cost vs convenience calculation just doesnt work for me to get the bus.

Roll on April when we go down to 1 car!

See, most of my work can be done from home so those two hours on the bus can be used to work. So it's actually more convenient for me to spend longer travelling as all that time is 'usable' whereas in a car, a good 45 minutes is wasted. But everyone's situation is different!

Luckily for me, except for the short while I lived in Crook, I've always had a direct bus Newcastle and Gateshead, so essentially everything is 2 buses away. Like I've said before, I specifically bought a house because of the X21 (and 18 back then)

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I don't imagine that there are an awful lot of people who currently use cars to work that will be open to switching to the bus - there's likely a reason they started using a car in the first place. As has been said the cost for people will likely always be cheaper than running a car, however when folk need to start changing bus or when the bus takes twice the time a car does then no amount of USBs and tables will be of benefit.

The challenge, at least from my point of view, is getting people to use the buses for leisure in evenings and on weekends. More attractive evening ticket options are likely the best way to go about that - coupled with half decent evening frequencies. Weekends are easier to target - parking in Newcastle, for example, is horrendous when Newcastle are playing at home and people are more likely to want to have a drink on a weekend as well.

(03 Mar 2020, 2:37 pm)mb134 wrote I don't imagine that there are an awful lot of people who currently use cars to work that will be open to switching to the bus - there's likely a reason they started using a car in the first place. As has been said the cost for people will likely always be cheaper than running a car, however when folk need to start changing bus or when the bus takes twice the time a car does then no amount of USBs and tables will be of benefit.

The challenge, at least from my point of view, is getting people to use the buses for leisure in evenings and on weekends. More attractive evening ticket options are likely the best way to go about that - coupled with half decent evening frequencies. Weekends are easier to target - parking in Newcastle, for example, is horrendous when Newcastle are playing at home and people are more likely to want to have a drink on a weekend as well.

The thing is, all the people who need to travel by bus will already be travelling by bus. Now it's a case of convincing to switch from car to bus.
And like you say, they need to get people to use it for leisure before they'll use it for commuting.

In my opinion changing buses isn't necessarily an issue, but when you have to change in the likes of Durham Bus Station and Eldon Square it's an absolute nightmare trying to find where your next bus is. I personally think the layout of Gateshead Interchange is far better from a usability perspective, mainly because there's plenty of room so buses can park near their intended stand!

GNE need to start running the X21 to West Auckland on a later into the evening and on Sundays as for people there the only option during the evenings/Sundays is Arriva, and why would they switch if they can only use them during the daytime?

I completely agree, i have 2 routes in front of my house that can have me at the metrocentre in 36 mins. I would at this moment in time never use them. Its simply too expensive when you already have a car sat outside the house.

I genuinely do not believe that i would consider the bus to be a viable option into the metro/newcastle for leisure unless it was £1 each way, £2 at an absolute push. No way would that be commercially viable for any operator.

(03 Mar 2020, 2:52 pm)WheelBus1986 wrote I completely agree, i have 2 routes in front of my house that can have me at the metrocentre in 36 mins. I would at this moment in time never use them. Its simply too expensive when you already have a car sat outside the house.

I genuinely do not believe that i would consider the bus to be a viable option into the metro/newcastle for leisure unless it was £1 each way, £2 at an absolute push. No way would that be commercially viable for any operator.

If you already have the car, that's the major expense already covered (unless it's on finance). And I don't think many people would want to get rid of their car and switch to bus fully. If you have 2 cars, maybe selling one and travelling by bus would be viable as you would still have a car for 'emergencies'

What they need to focus on is getting young people to use the bus before they get a car. And in that respect, I think having high spec vehicles, with WiFi, USB charging, comfortable seats is the only option. If your only experience of a bus is what crap they use on scholars services, then you'd never want to travel by bus (I know because I was in that exact situation. After I left school, I didn't use the bus for a good year or two, until they started getting the Streetlites and I never used the X21 until they got the StreetDecks)

To be honest young people will never give up cars for buses, I was doing some digging and I saw that the red kite route used to have Omnicitys, to go from Omnicitys to Streetlites is a real downgrade and people notice these things, leather and WiFi can't disguise from the fact, the bus is noticeably smaller and more uncomfortable. There seems to be a heavy drinking culture up this way so I imagine weekend tickets is the way forward or some sort of promotion for clubbers is an avenue.

(03 Mar 2020, 8:06 pm)Big O wrote To be honest young people will never give up cars for buses, I was doing some digging and I saw that the red kite route used to have Omnicitys, to go from Omnicitys to Streetlites is a real downgrade and people notice these things, leather and WiFi can't disguise from the fact, the bus is noticeably smaller and more uncomfortable. There seems to be a heavy drinking culture up this way so I imagine weekend tickets is the way forward or some sort of promotion for clubbers is an avenue.

That's part of the reason for the introduction of the 24 hour tickets as well as the 5 for £5 in the evening type tickets.

(03 Mar 2020, 3:05 pm)streetdeckfan wrote If you already have the car, that's the major expense already covered (unless it's on finance).  And I don't think many people would want to get rid of their car and switch to bus fully. If you have 2 cars, maybe selling one and travelling by bus would be viable as you would still have a car for 'emergencies'

What they need to focus on is getting young people to use the bus before they get a car. And in that respect, I think having high spec vehicles, with WiFi, USB charging, comfortable seats is the only option. If your only experience of a bus is what crap they use on scholars services, then you'd never want to travel by bus (I know because I was in that exact situation. After I left school, I didn't use the bus for a good year or two, until they started getting the Streetlites and I never used the X21 until they got the StreetDecks)

The costs for our cars are fixed. 
There's only additional fuel that we need to pay for, as and when we need it. 

As I've said repeatedly, I can charge my phone and listen to my music in the car.
EldestC passed his test last year and can do the same in his car even though its 10 years old. It takes him 10 mins to drive to see his girlfriend, rather than an hour and two buses. 
MrsC has the same facilities in her car. 

Three individuals that could switch a percentage of their journeys to public transport. 
If it's not financially attractive to do so, then those percentage of journeys will be at the smaller end of the scale and that's with me having worked in transport and who classes himself as an enthusiast.

(03 Mar 2020, 9:07 pm)Andreos1 wrote The costs for our cars are fixed. 
There's only additional fuel that we need to pay for, as and when we need it. 

As I've said repeatedly, I can charge my phone and listen to my music in the car.
EldestC passed his test last year and can do the same in his car even though its 10 years old. It takes him 10 mins to drive to see his girlfriend, rather than an hour and two buses. 
MrsC has the same facilities in her car. 

Three individuals that could switch a percentage of their journeys to public transport. 
If it's not financially attractive to do so, then those percentage of journeys will be at the smaller end of the scale and that's with me having worked in transport and who classes himself as an enthusiast.

This is exactly it. Due to ridiculous rail fares and not always being able to book in advance, it's cheaper 9 times out of 10 for me to fill my car up to drive Aberdeen - Newcastle and back than a standard return is on LNER - and I'll still have around quarter of a tank left over. In addition, I can stop when I want for some edible food (as opposed to the trash served up for ridiculous prices in the Cafe Bar) and because of the prehistoric train infrastructure north of Edinburgh the car is about an hour quicker than the train + bus combo door to door. 

Bar my journey to work which is £1.50 each way, its a similar story for buses. £3.80 for a student day ticket with First, but majority of the time I can drive wherever I need to go in the city for £2 max.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51791445

"The problem with reducing fares is that buses are very expensive to buy.

"So, if we're going to buy more of them, which is absolutely what we should be doing, then we do need help with funding for that"

Really?
Appreciate there isn't a public breakdown of how much profit was made in the North East last year, but there's detail of the group profit and revenue in this link. 
https://www.go-ahead.com/media/press-rel...-june-2019

It's almost as if they're scraping down the back of the sofa for spare pound coins

(08 Mar 2020, 8:47 pm)Andreos1 wrote https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51791445


Really?
Appreciate there isn't a public breakdown of how much profit was made in the North East last year, but there's detail of the group profit and revenue in this link. 
https://www.go-ahead.com/media/press-rel...-june-2019

It's almost as if they're scraping down the back of the sofa for spare pound coins

GNE haven't submitted their accounts for 2019 just yet, but in 2018 they made a profit of about £4 million after taxes

To put that in to perspective, they spent about £8 million on the StreetDecks that haven't arrived yet

Actually, reading a more, that's the year they bought EY, so I wonder if that's taken in to account. Frankly it's been far too long since I did my accountancy course to remember how to read them!