(16 Aug 2020, 1:40 pm)Malarkey wrote I'm sure First York have had there Mercedes Citaro Artics upgraded to Euro 6 on their P&R Services. - Preventia offer Euro 6 Retrofit options for various vehicle types including the Citaros as shown in the link below.

https://www.proventia.com/uk_-_retrofit

Go North East prefer to use Eminox and have done for some years now dating back to when the Scania L94's were done, I don't think Eminox offer a Euro 6 upgrade option for the Citaros which probably why we've been told they cannot be upgraded to Euro 6.

Citaro's are very heavy on the fuel though and expensive for parts. It's no wonder GoNE are looking to get rid.

Did GNE not take the fuel consumption and price of parts into account before purchase?

(16 Aug 2020, 2:50 pm)L469 YVK wrote Citaro's are very heavy on the fuel though and expensive for parts. It's no wonder GoNE are looking to get rid.

I know it's a shame that they are looking to get rid as they are cracking buses, I think when some do leave they'll end up with East Yorkshire as they have 04/54reg B7RLE's and some awful sounding 56reg E300's that should be disposed of.

Alternatively Plymouth Citybus would be a good shout with the expansion around Cornwall, again these have old Single Deckers still active in the form of Dennis Dart SPD's which iirc are 02/52/03/53 reg.

(16 Aug 2020, 2:50 pm)L469 YVK wrote Citaro's are very heavy on the fuel though and expensive for parts. It's no wonder GoNE are looking to get rid.

Is there any proof of this? Maybe they're not as efficient as smaller buses such as the E200 but that really goes without saying.

(16 Aug 2020, 3:09 pm)Big O wrote Is there any proof of this? Maybe they're not as efficient as smaller buses such as the E200 but that really goes without saying.

We had to replace the door button on the dash on the one we had at Stagecarriage and it was something silly like £200.

(16 Aug 2020, 2:59 pm)Malarkey wrote I know it's a shame that they are looking to get rid as they are cracking buses, I think when some do leave they'll end up with East Yorkshire as they have 04/54reg B7RLE's and some awful sounding 56reg E300's that should be disposed of.

Alternatively Plymouth Citybus would be a good shout with the expansion around Cornwall, again these have old Single Deckers still active in the form of Dennis Dart SPD's which iirc are 02/52/03/53 reg.

The Citaros, particularly the refurbed ones with the leather seats, are some of the most uncomfortable buses I've ever had the displeasure of using. 
I took the 27 from South Shields to Gateshead, and during that journey I had to change seats three times because it felt like I was sitting on a piece of metal.
I don't know what they did when they were refurbishing them, but I'm fairly sure there is less padding in the seats than when they left.

(16 Aug 2020, 3:39 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The Citaros, particularly the refurbed ones with the leather seats, are some of the most uncomfortable buses I've ever had the displeasure of using. 
I took the 27 from South Shields to Gateshead, and during that journey I had to change seats three times because it felt like I was sitting on a piece of metal.
I don't know what they did when they were refurbishing them, but I'm fairly sure there is less padding in the seats than when they left.

Definitely less padding on seats following refurb as you can feel the base metal of seat when sat down now whereas previously there was a lot of padding with comfort on par with Geminis in the fleet in my opinion.

(16 Aug 2020, 3:52 pm)Malarkey wrote Definitely less padding on seats following refurb as you can feel the base metal of seat when sat down now whereas previously there was a lot of padding with comfort on par with Geminis in the fleet in my opinion.

I thought so, I used to use the Citaros all the time on the 49 and I don't remember them being that uncomfortable!

I mean, I do like the Citaros as a vehicle, but they way they have them at the minute make them just intolerable for me. 

Weirdly enough, the only seats on them that I can use for an extended period of time is the two front seats, they have basically no padding at all, but the shape of them makes them a lot nicer to sit in.

Could see some Citaros being replaced by newer Citaros from the GAL fleet which will become available at some point next year. The C2 models are more fuel-efficient and reliable than the Euro4 models which GNE currently have.

(16 Aug 2020, 7:10 pm)Big O wrote Could see some Citaros being replaced by newer Citaros from the GAL fleet which will become available at some point next year. The C2 models are more fuel-efficient and reliable than the Euro4 models which GNE currently have.

I thought GNE were looking to get rid of Citaros altogether. There are 15 65-plate Citaros in Orpington that could transfer up, but they'd need a full refurb etc. and would those costs justify second hand vehicles which would be going after ~7 years anyway. I don't think GNE will be wanting more Citaros, as much as I like them as an enthusiast. They might as well just opt for brand new buses that have double the life span, cheaper to run and have the benefit of a standardized fleet. I think GAL would give the Orpington Citaros to somewhere like Plymouth or East Anglia as well as the Connections 4 batch that will only be here another few years.

(16 Aug 2020, 2:59 pm)Malarkey wrote I know it's a shame that they are looking to get rid as they are cracking buses, I think when some do leave they'll end up with East Yorkshire as they have 04/54reg B7RLE's and some awful sounding 56reg E300's that should be disposed of.

I wonder if even that would be worth it. Citaros, as pointed out already, are expensive to run and maintain - I'd imagine even ageing B7RLEs and E300s would be both cheaper on the fuel and parts. 

I believe EYMS have a number of younger B7RLEs, so there's also the advantage there of fleet standardisation. I think they also have a number of B7TLs, and I'd think that they would share at least some parts?

Just sprung into my head.

Extremely unlikely to be anything in 2021/22 financial year but correct me if wrong.

Year after depending on recovery, an outside chance of decker order for Angel (would most likely be like for like StreetDecks) or Tyne Valley Ten. Latter again, I think B9TLs will be kept and refurbished given their heavyweight status unless there's demand elsewhere in GAG for B9TLs to be cascaded.

Any orders when time allows would IMO, most likely be single decks and possibly electric vehicles (58 etc).

I predict more second hand stuff for little coaster, thats assuming little coaster is still around by then

Tbh I wouldn't mind if little coaster was upgraded to full size single decker buses. The solos lately are proving to be unfit

(07 Apr 2021, 7:48 am)MichealAaron wrote Tbh I wouldn't mind if little coaster was upgraded to full size single decker buses. The solos lately are proving to be unfit

How, exactly, are they proving to be unfit?

2 decekrs and 1 OmniCity was on the 41 today. On Saturday every little coaster route had a rare working.

(07 Apr 2021, 3:12 pm)MichealAaron wrote 2 decekrs and 1 OmniCity was on the 41 today. On Saturday every little coaster route had a rare working.

Would some of these workings not be to help with social distancing? 

Even if the Solos are struggling mechanically, it's far more likely that they'll be replaced with more minibuses rather than full size singles.

16 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400XLB - Angel 21 

My thought process for this would be for the 21 to remain at Every 10 Minutes and with Retail etc reopening next week then their is going to be more passengers getting on the across the route and pre-covid you would often see 2 buses together due how unpredictable loading can be on this particular service at certain times of the day, therefore the extra capacity these vehicles provide would be beneficial in the long term.

The 16 Streetdecks currently allocated to the "Angel 21" would then move to Riverside for the Tyne Valley Ten with the Volvo B9's moving into a spare role to replace some of the Scania N94UD Omnidekka's which would then be withdrawn from service and sold.

14 - Alexander Dennis Enviro 400ER - Citylink 57/58

Would replace the temporary allocation of "Toon Link" Volvo B9TL Wright Gemini 2's on the 58 to move into a spare role again replacing more Scania N94UD's and for the Mercedes Citaro 0530N's on the 57 to be withdrawn from service.

20 - Yutong E12's - 33N/X66 & Quaylink Q1/Q2

Wright Streetlite DF's would then move to Deptford to replace 3 Mercedes Citaro 0530N's, Optare Versa's move into a spare role allowing for withdrawal 09 Plate Versa's.

(07 Apr 2021, 4:58 pm)Malarkey wrote 16 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400XLB - Angel 21 

My thought process for this would be for the 21 to remain at Every 10 Minutes and with Retail etc reopening next week then their is going to be more passengers getting on the across the route and pre-covid you would often see 2 buses together due how unpredictable loading can be on this particular service at certain times of the day, therefore the extra capacity these vehicles provide would be beneficial in the long term.

The 16 Streetdecks currently allocated to the "Angel 21" would then move to Riverside for the Tyne Valley Ten with the Volvo B9's moving into a spare role to replace some of the Scania N94UD Omnidekka's which would then be withdrawn from service and sold.

14 - Alexander Dennis Enviro 400ER - Citylink 57/58

Would replace the temporary allocation of "Toon Link" Volvo B9TL Wright Gemini 2's on the 58 to move into a spare role again replacing more Scania N94UD's and for the Mercedes Citaro 0530N's on the 57 to be withdrawn from service.

20 - Yutong E12's - 33N/X66 & Quaylink Q1/Q2

Wright Streetlite DF's would then move to Deptford to replace 3 Mercedes Citaro 0530N's, Optare Versa's move into a spare role allowing for withdrawal 09 Plate Versa's.

If they got XLBs for the Angel would they still be able to serve Arnison? The roundabout is fairly tight IIRC

(07 Apr 2021, 4:58 pm)Malarkey wrote 16 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400XLB - Angel 21 

My thought process for this would be for the 21 to remain at Every 10 Minutes and with Retail etc reopening next week then their is going to be more passengers getting on the across the route and pre-covid you would often see 2 buses together due how unpredictable loading can be on this particular service at certain times of the day, therefore the extra capacity these vehicles provide would be beneficial in the long term.

The 16 Streetdecks currently allocated to the "Angel 21" would then move to Riverside for the Tyne Valley Ten with the Volvo B9's moving into a spare role to replace some of the Scania N94UD Omnidekka's which would then be withdrawn from service and sold.

14 - Alexander Dennis Enviro 400ER - Citylink 57/58

Would replace the temporary allocation of "Toon Link" Volvo B9TL Wright Gemini 2's on the 58 to move into a spare role again replacing more Scania N94UD's and for the Mercedes Citaro 0530N's on the 57 to be withdrawn from service.

20 - Yutong E12's - 33N/X66 & Quaylink Q1/Q2

Wright Streetlite DF's would then move to Deptford to replace 3 Mercedes Citaro 0530N's, Optare Versa's move into a spare role allowing for withdrawal 09 Plate Versa's.

Very much doubt we will see such a high intake of new buses for the next few years. Think at the most we will probably see is the funding used to purchase another 9 electrics - possibly for 57 & X66 including spare.

Also isn't Hexham up for renewal this year? If so, then possibly 7 euro 6 solo with current allocation cascading to percy main

(07 Apr 2021, 4:58 pm)Malarkey wrote 16 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400XLB - Angel 21 

My thought process for this would be for the 21 to remain at Every 10 Minutes and with Retail etc reopening next week then their is going to be more passengers getting on the across the route and pre-covid you would often see 2 buses together due how unpredictable loading can be on this particular service at certain times of the day, therefore the extra capacity these vehicles provide would be beneficial in the long term.

The 16 Streetdecks currently allocated to the "Angel 21" would then move to Riverside for the Tyne Valley Ten with the Volvo B9's moving into a spare role to replace some of the Scania N94UD Omnidekka's which would then be withdrawn from service and sold.

14 - Alexander Dennis Enviro 400ER - Citylink 57/58

Would replace the temporary allocation of "Toon Link" Volvo B9TL Wright Gemini 2's on the 58 to move into a spare role again replacing more Scania N94UD's and for the Mercedes Citaro 0530N's on the 57 to be withdrawn from service.

20 - Yutong E12's - 33N/X66 & Quaylink Q1/Q2

Wright Streetlite DF's would then move to Deptford to replace 3 Mercedes Citaro 0530N's, Optare Versa's move into a spare role allowing for withdrawal 09 Plate Versa's.

I cannot see anyone considering something the size of XLBs, until they know what the passenger numbers are likely to return to once social distancing etc is dropped. Lothian paid about £11.3m for 42, so around 270k per bus. 
The 21 is only really full out of Durham or Newcastle during peak times, but some of the largest employers in Durham City have most of their staff working from home for the foreseeable. 

There's also the issue of Eldon Square bus station. The X9/X10 don't serve it, presumably due to the size, and the XLBs are the same length. 

As I said in the other thread, I think Quaylink would be a good contender for the latest funding available, if they can do something with the cash-strapped Nexus. I really cannot see any great expense being poured into the X66 though. You'll recall that even when the Streetlites were ordered a good few years ago now, they still cut costs on them by down-speccing them on what was the standard at the time.

XLB's on the 21? First thing that screams when you see it is "gas guzzler". But, I do get your logic. Perhaps some long wheelbase standard E400MMCs would be enough.

(07 Apr 2021, 6:07 pm)Adrian wrote I cannot see anyone considering something the size of XLBs, until they know what the passenger numbers are likely to return to once social distancing etc is dropped. Lothian paid about £11.3m for 42, so around 270k per bus. 
The 21 is only really full out of Durham or Newcastle during peak times, but some of the largest employers in Durham City have most of their staff working from home for the foreseeable. 

There's also the issue of Eldon Square bus station. The X9/X10 don't serve it, presumably due to the size, and the XLBs are the same length. 

As I said in the other thread, I think Quaylink would be a good contender for the latest funding available, if they can do something with the cash-strapped Nexus. I really cannot see any great expense being poured into the X66 though. You'll recall that even when the Streetlites were ordered a good few years ago now, they still cut costs on them by down-speccing them on what was the standard at the time.

The XLBs are around 13.4M in length so are 1.6M off the length of the longer Wheelbase (15M) elites (which I'm fairly sure are the GNE ones are although correct me if I'm wrong) also I highly doubt an XLB would do the U-turn on CLS front street which the CLS shorts all do to get to the correct side of the road.

(07 Apr 2021, 3:41 pm)mb134 wrote Would some of these workings not be to help with social distancing? 

Even if the Solos are struggling mechanically, it's far more likely that they'll be replaced with more minibuses rather than full size singles.

Replaced with what though if smaller buses. They can't possibly get more solos. Smaller E200MMC would be better

How did the 21s manage when they had the X66 bendy buses on trial? In terms of turning at Chester (I would guess the 21 was serving Pilgrim St still at this time)

(07 Apr 2021, 4:58 pm)Malarkey wrote 16 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400XLB - Angel 21 

My thought process for this would be for the 21 to remain at Every 10 Minutes and with Retail etc reopening next week then their is going to be more passengers getting on the across the route and pre-covid you would often see 2 buses together due how unpredictable loading can be on this particular service at certain times of the day, therefore the extra capacity these vehicles provide would be beneficial in the long term.

The 16 Streetdecks currently allocated to the "Angel 21" would then move to Riverside for the Tyne Valley Ten with the Volvo B9's moving into a spare role to replace some of the Scania N94UD Omnidekka's which would then be withdrawn from service and sold.

14 - Alexander Dennis Enviro 400ER - Citylink 57/58

Would replace the temporary allocation of "Toon Link" Volvo B9TL Wright Gemini 2's on the 58 to move into a spare role again replacing more Scania N94UD's and for the Mercedes Citaro 0530N's on the 57 to be withdrawn from service.

20 - Yutong E12's - 33N/X66 & Quaylink Q1/Q2

Wright Streetlite DF's would then move to Deptford to replace 3 Mercedes Citaro 0530N's, Optare Versa's move into a spare role allowing for withdrawal 09 Plate Versa's.

I haven't done the maths but quickly off my head does the 21 need 16 buses if it's every 10 minutes? Remember it's every 7.5 minutes atm - not sure if that was a mistake.

Also unless something has changed the next batch of Yutongs are for the 58, there's even been images shown of them in orange. In normal times neither of them need deckers though.

I doubt there will another order for buses for a few years yet. I did here that the xlines coaches were to be replaced 2022 but how true that it i don't know. Its probably quite likely actually, they ain't that relieable and there are far too many accidents. Someone nearly had the lamppost down at the depot the other week so maybe GNE have seen the light unlike the driver.

Why would go North East get Coaches for the X9/X10 then get rid of them

(20 Apr 2021, 9:55 am)CookieMonster wrote I doubt there will another order for buses for a few years yet. I did here that the xlines coaches were to be replaced 2022 but how true that it i don't know. Its probably quite likely actually, they ain't that relieable and there are far too many accidents. Someone nearly had the lamppost down at the depot the other week so maybe GNE have seen the light unlike the driver.

I doubt we'll see the coaches replaced any time soon tbh, as long as they're more reliable than the B5s then they'll stick around until they aren't.

My prediction for 2022/23

- New vehicles for the Angel & few extras for XLines (depending on network changes)
- StreetDecks cascaded to Percy Main for Cobalt & Coast
- Cobalt B9's partially repainted and allocated to TVT
- Current TVT B9s either cascaded within GNE or wider GAG