(20 Aug 2021, 2:49 pm)Storx wrote See in the longer term I could only see it working if it replaced some conventional bus routes aswell even if they worked with them at the same time. For example say the 28/28A issues which we're having now. It could work as a DRT service around the Chester Le Street area from the likes of Waldridge, Ouston, Pelton, Pelton Fells, Houghton Le Spring, Fence Houses then just flow directly into what would be the 21 and pick up customers as normal along Durham Road going towards Newcastle and would replace parts of the 25, 28, 28A, 29, 34 and 71.

So you'd have something like a 21 every 7.5 minutes to the Angel and every 15 minutes to Chester Le Street and depending on where people have ordered to go the 4 buses would split off at Angel and do they're own little routes to like Kibblesworth, Harlow Green, Ouston, Pelton and the other 4 from Chester Le Street going to Durham, Waldridge Park, Fencehouses or whereever.

It would work quite well along the Coast Road aswell with Whitley say have the 308 every 15 minutes to North Tyneside Hospital then every 30 minutes to Blyth via Whitley with the 2 308's ending at North Tyneside becoming a local DRT services there taking passengers to Monkseaton, Marden, Cullercoats or whereever they want to go.

Right now though all the profitable routes still exist and DRT are really only running the rump services so it'll never make a profit like that. It's very long term but some day can really see it taking of and what are 'conventional' bus routes just don't exist in most places.

I think the main issue at the end of the day is that buses are a form of mass transit, it's never going to work if there's just a few passengers here and there.

Having thought further about what I said further up about ride sharing and DRT being essentially the same thing, I really feel like they're going about it the wrong way. Would it not make more sense to have DRT services offered by taxi operators rather than bus operators, since the service more closely resembles the form of a taxi rather than a traditional bus service.

I feel like the overheads with it being offered by a taxi operator would be lower than it being operated by the likes of GNE or Arriva, although I could be mistaken. And since a service like DRT will, in all likelihood, always need to be subsidised due to the low usage, would it not make sense to go with the lower cost option.

I personally feel that, an operator like, dare I say it, GCT would be fairly well suited to running a DRT service.

Apparently remote working is increasing and people aren't going back to offices/factories.
We've also got physical retailers apparently dying on their feet. 
Yet, here we are at TVTE and there's a boatload of traffic and not a single bus in sight.
https://twitter.com/NELiveTraffic/status...36800?s=19

Where are all of those cars going? Why aren't the drivers using public transport? Why don't we see more than the 93/94 serving TVTE? Why can't operators see beyond the same old? 
That X32 should have been the start of operators looking at something different. Doesn't look like it was the case at all.

(20 Aug 2021, 3:50 pm)Andreos1 wrote Apparently remote working is increasing and people aren't going back to offices/factories.
We've also got physical retailers apparently dying on their feet. 
Yet, here we are at TVTE and there's a boatload of traffic and not a single bus in sight.
https://twitter.com/NELiveTraffic/status...36800?s=19

Where are all of those cars going? Why aren't the drivers using public transport? Why don't we see more than the 93/94 serving TVTE? Why can't operators see beyond the same old? 
That X32 should have been the start of operators looking at something different. Doesn't look like it was the case at all.

Lack of public transport to Team Valley is definitely an issue, it's one of the (many) things that puts me off going.

Perhaps sending some southbound services such as the X21 through Team Valley would be handy, although then there'd be the issue of getting through the traffic!

Many people are using the Team Valley as a shortcut to avoid the roadworks on the Western Bypass. I use it myself for that reason.

Charles

I'm fed up of these road works already.

(20 Aug 2021, 6:30 pm)Charles41 wrote Many people are using the Team Valley as a shortcut to avoid the roadworks on the Western Bypass. I use it myself for that reason.

Charles

But you aren't avoiding any roadworks by scooting down Kingsway...

---

(20 Aug 2021, 4:27 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Lack of public transport to Team Valley is definitely an issue, it's one of the (many) things that puts me off going.

Perhaps sending some southbound services such as the X21 through Team Valley would be handy, although then there'd be the issue of getting through the traffic!

I remember a few years ago, there was a big initiative set up by the GNE and TVTE bods. Encouraging the use of public transport and bycicles.
Even then, they still persisted with the 93/94.
The PR scheme didn't last.

Quite why the penny didn't drop and they started to realise that not everyone wants to change at Maingate or Gateshead (or Chowdene, the QE or Heworth), is anyones guess.

Blinkers perhaps?

I've used the 93/94 to/from workplaces when I've needed to be at the valley for meetings.
If I wasn't a gricer, I'd have given it up after 1 trip.
I just hope my journeys haven't distorted the figures and given someone the justification to keep things as they are.
'Frank, we've had one passenger change at that church on Bensham Bank, another one at the QE and one fella hung around Gateshead Interchange like a muppet for 35mins, waiting for a bus down the bank. He will have been late for work, but it justifies keeping services as they are!
Aye, when you're at it. Look at cancelling the 71. No fu£&er uses that apart from the FPF and those old biddies needing their pension, bread and milk'.

(20 Aug 2021, 8:36 pm)Andreos1 wrote But you aren't avoiding any roadworks by scooting down Kingsway...

The still to be activated 50mph roadwork cameras from Birtley down to Team Valley and vice versa are causing congestion already so folk are already taking alternative routes through Allerdene and Lamesley, it’s probably not any quicker but you get the sense of movement. 

Team Valley is quite interesting, it’s evolved into this hybrid factory-office-local indie style place. Before Gateshead council literally handed them the keys to the town, the new Tesco was going to be down there at the north end where the funfair takes place

You could have a bus run Chester, Birtley, Lamesley, Valley, Bensham (or up onto Saltwell Road) Gateshead

They did have the Team Valley Clipper at one point

(20 Aug 2021, 8:48 pm)Ambassador wrote The still to be activated 50mph roadwork cameras from Birtley down to Team Valley and vice versa are causing congestion already so folk are already taking alternative routes through Allerdene and Lamesley, it’s probably not any quicker but you get the sense of movement. 

Team Valley is quite interesting, it’s evolved into this hybrid factory-office-local indie style place. Before Gateshead council literally handed them the keys to the town, the new Tesco was going to be down there at the north end where the funfair takes place

But that's it, the works are between Coal House and the Bowes Incline.
Going via Kingsway, doesn't miss anything apart from a couple of cameras that aren't switched on yet.
Looking at the clip on twitter, you can see exactly where the majority of the cars are heading and its not a left hand turn up to the gold medal.

(20 Aug 2021, 8:51 pm)Andreos1 wrote But that's it, the works are between Coal House and the Bowes Incline.
Going via Kingsway, doesn't miss anything apart from a couple of cameras that aren't switched on yet.
Looking at the clip on twitter, you can see exactly where the majority of the cars are heading and its not a left hand turn up to the gold medal.

the cameras are a nightmare, people are hard braking and it’s causing tailbacks through to the metro centre. 

Didn’t click that this was southbound but yeah it’s been quicker for me to go that way from town through Bensham bank thru the vs,key and up via allerdene into Birtley than sitting on the bypass.

tho I tend to divert via Sainsbury’s or M&S for wine….

You're always gonna struggle to tempt car users onto buses, the perception of public transport in the UK is generally poor not helped by media outlets constantly sharing tales of woe, just look at what happened when Northern had the major timetable shake up a few year back, it was a PR disaster only made worse by being on strike every Saturday for several months, the current circumstances causing buses to not turn up isn't helping, two runs on an hourly service not operating with 2 hours standing round Bangor at night unsure when/if a bus will run to get you home is an experience I don't wish to repeat.

The car has much more freedoms whereas public transport feels somewhat restricted in comparison in more than one sense, for example the big one for me is passengers, in a car I have control over almost everything such as the temperature and the stereo, meanwhile whilst those coaches on the X10 may look nice, they somewhat lose their appeal when you're feeling too stuffy and being made to endure grime/MC/whatever out of somebody's phone.

Things like this makes public transport an unappealing option to many, myself included!

(20 Aug 2021, 9:23 pm)Jimmi wrote You're always gonna struggle to tempt car users onto buses, the perception of public transport in the UK is generally poor not helped by media outlets constantly sharing tales of woe, just look at what happened when Northern had the major timetable shake up a few year back, it was a PR disaster only made worse by being on strike every Saturday for several months, the current circumstances causing buses to not turn up isn't helping, two runs on an hourly service not operating with 2 hours standing round Bangor at night unsure when/if a bus will run to get you home is an experience I don't wish to repeat.

The car has much more freedoms whereas public transport feels somewhat restricted in comparison in more than one sense, for example the big one for me is passengers, in a car I have control over almost everything such as the temperature and the stereo, meanwhile whilst those coaches on the X10 may look nice, they somewhat lose their appeal when you're feeling too stuffy and being made to endure grime/MC/whatever out of somebody's phone.

Things like this makes public transport an unappealing option to many, myself included!

One of the things I love about public transport is that the other passengers provide the entertainment!
I used to love it when drunks got on, I remember one time two started a fight because they were arguing over how much drugs to buy when they were on the phone to what seemed like their dealer.

To be honest I also just like listening in on people's conversations, it's much more interesting than anything you listen to on the radio!

Seeing it from both sides of the coin

Bus Postive, Use bus lanes instead of stuck in long queue of traffic, A quick change to other links like metro, Gets to places where its hard to park up, it's better for people who have been on the drink, comfortable (up for discussion), mainly for people like myself who are claustrophobic (another up for discussion)

Bus Bad Points, Doesn't get close to your home (say you live in an estate), Having to change buses to get to different places, long queue at bus stations, have a more chance of breakdown(again up for discussion)

Car Postive, gets you closer to your house, makes shopping trips easier, comfortable (same as bus up for discussion), listen to your favourite radio station and have a laugh if something funny is said, gets you to places a bit quicker

Car Bad Points, stuck in traffic jams, not being able to find a parking space at a shopping centre, Constantly having to fuel up, chance of break down (same as bus up for discussion), Can get annoying if someone cuts up in front of you

There's a lot of good and bad points for using a car or bus. One thing I left of was prices. Mainly cause what is cheaper. Using the bus everytime to go to work or shopping or paying of a car

(20 Aug 2021, 9:39 pm)Train8261 wrote Seeing it from both sides of the coin

Bus Postive, Use bus lanes instead of stuck in long queue of traffic, A quick change to other links like metro, Gets to places where its hard to park up, it's better for people who have been on the drink, comfortable (up for discussion), mainly for people like myself who are claustrophobic (another up for discussion)

Bus Bad Points, Doesn't get close to your home (say you live in an estate), Having to change buses to get to different places, long queue at bus stations, have a more chance of breakdown(again up for discussion)

Car Postive, gets you closer to your house, makes shopping trips easier, comfortable (same as bus up for discussion), listen to your favourite radio station and have a laugh if something funny is said, gets you to places a bit quicker

Car Bad Points, stuck in traffic jams, not being able to find a parking space at a shopping centre, Constantly having to fuel up, chance of break down (same as bus up for discussion), Can get annoying if someone cuts up in front of you

There's a lot of good and bad points for using a car or bus. One thing I left of was prices. Mainly cause what is cheaper. Using the bus everytime to go to work or shopping or paying of a car

As with everything, whether the bus works for you depends entirely on your situation. But I do believe that it can work for most people if they actually give it a proper go.

As I've said before, when I moved down to Bishop the number 1 priority for me was having good access to public transport. I overlooked nicer houses that were a longer walk from a bus stop.
So, for me it's literally a 1-2 minute walk to the bus stop. The best part is thanks to GNE extending the X21 to Tindale/West Auckland, I now have a direct service all the way to Newcastle, which is better than when I got the house!

For me, as someone who doesn't have a car, it makes perfect financial sense to use public transport. For the next year and a half at least, at most it'd cost me £68 a month for an All Zone GNE pass. I couldn't even insure a car for that never mind buy one. Even once I turn 26 it'd still only be £95 a month (which I used to pay anyway just to be able to use The Key!)

Obviously, for me the negative is that because of GNE's inability to run a full service for the entirety of the route on evenings or Sundays, I still have to pay for the odd Arriva ticket here and there and wait around in Bishop for half an hour for the X21 to turn up because I'm too cheap to pay for the Arriva 6 all the way to Durham, but it's not really that bad.

As for positives for the car, for me comfort is probably the main one. Obviously the bus is never going to be as comfortable as a reclining heated leather seat with the AC blasting (Yes, I have both on at the same time, shut up), but I'd personally take the ability to get work done over comfort.

Then there's also speed, for the journey that I used to do regularly (Bishop Auckland to Dunston), it takes pretty much spot on 2 hours by bus, but in the car it takes 40 minutes (it can easily be done in 30 minutes driving at 'the speed limit')

I think bus companies would profit more if they made more services in areas they need them. But they withdrawn them because a small part of the route isn't used. I remember really well the old X4/X5 by arriva. That passed the Freeman Hospital before it became the X7/X8 and people were pretty annoyed as there wasn't a link to the Hospital without changing services

(20 Aug 2021, 11:03 pm)Train8261 wrote I think bus companies would profit more if they made more services in areas they need them. But they withdrawn them because a small part of the route isn't used. I remember really well the old X4/X5 by arriva. That passed the Freeman Hospital before it became the X7/X8 and people were pretty annoyed as there wasn't a link to the Hospital without changing services

It was:
- X4 via Church Bank & Gosforth - later reversed back to non stop via Matthews Bank
- X5 via Freeman Hosp - later reversed back to non stop via Matthews Bank. Hospital link replaced by service 52
- X4/X5 both then later re-numbered to X7/X8

To be honest, the reversal was actually one of ANE's more sensible ideas likewise with the 52.

The Northern part of the X8 still needs sorting out though, still too long of a route.

(20 Aug 2021, 9:01 pm)Ambassador wrote the cameras are a nightmare, people are hard braking and it’s causing tailbacks through to the metro centre. 

Didn’t click that this was southbound but yeah it’s been quicker for me to go that way from town through Bensham bank thru the vs,key and up via allerdene into Birtley than sitting on the bypass.

tho I tend to divert via Sainsbury’s or M&S for wine….

Even pre-roadworks, I’d go through Team Valley between 16:00 and 18:00 as it was quicker.

Lots of people do the same. As you say, you have a sense of movement if you divert via Low Fell or Team Valley, rather than being stopped on the bypass itself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(21 Aug 2021, 12:46 am)L469 YVK wrote It was:
- X4 via Church Bank & Gosforth - later reversed back to non stop via Matthews Bank
- X5 via Freeman Hosp - later reversed back to non stop via Matthews Bank. Hospital link replaced by service 52
- X4/X5 both then later re-numbered to X7/X8

To be honest, the reversal was actually one of ANE's more sensible ideas likewise with the 52.

The Northern part of the X8 still needs sorting out though, still too long of a route.

X8 is way to long of a route. Do you even count it as an Express route. Considering its non stop between Matthew Bank and Newcastle

I do think that Blyth/Bebside/Cowpen needs an express to Newcastle via the Spine Road. Perhaps make it a circular of Blyth and have it Newcastle-Regent Centre-Newsham-Blyth-Cowpen-Bebside-Regent Centre-Newcastle, and vice versa.

(20 Aug 2021, 11:03 pm)Train8261 wrote I think bus companies would profit more if they made more services in areas they need them. But they withdrawn them because a small part of the route isn't used. I remember really well the old X4/X5 by arriva. That passed the Freeman Hospital before it became the X7/X8 and people were pretty annoyed as there wasn't a link to the Hospital without changing services

No they weren't people we're pissed off because they turned bus routes which have took roughly 30 minutes from Seaton Valley to Newcastle with the 363/364 which suddenly turned into 40/45+ minutes, even worse at rush hour while Cramlington had 6 buses an hour going direct. They we're both an absolute disaster and it cost Arriva big time around here as people turned to driving to the Metro and some haven't changed back. For the record I was one of those people and use the Metro much more than the X7 and it's all linked back to that and I know other people who do aswell.

The Freeman never lost it's link though as it was replaced by the 52 and before that it was the Ashington buses which eventually got dumped on the 57/57A, which we never did and still don't want, and lost the link to Rake Lane at the same time which was just as unpopular (both happened roughly the same time).

Stuff like that is the exact cause of the decline of passenger numbers and why bus companies shouldn't piss about with services which have been fine for years, one noticeably still doing it.

(21 Aug 2021, 11:07 am)omnicity4659 wrote I do think that Blyth/Bebside/Cowpen needs an express to Newcastle via the Spine Road. Perhaps make it a circular of Blyth and have it Newcastle-Regent Centre-Newsham-Blyth-Cowpen-Bebside-Regent Centre-Newcastle, and vice versa.

Even known it would probably do alright the catch-22 is you'd take passengers off the X10/X11 and make them unsustainable at 10/15 minutes (not sure it's returning) so you'd end up with empty buses from Blyth to Cramlington as there's not enough demand for a 10 minute service inbetween them.

Mind I do think they should divert the X20 and run it like the old X25/X26 did between Cowpen and Newcastle, the buses clearly aren't sustainable in their current form and it should only add 10 mins or so plus open new links from Ashington to Quorum all day (you could even divert one in the morning via the ministry and cancel the extended 52 runs). Then you could change the 52 to run the X8 route between Burradon and Cramlington so they'd have 3 buses an hour (it's got 9 mins, 1 express and 2 slower then change the X8 to run non-stop from Cowpen to Cramlington and run the 52 route to Burradon and the current route from there should knock a good 10 - 15 minutes off the service. Obviously interworking patterns etc would have to be changed though.

(21 Aug 2021, 4:03 pm)Storx wrote No they weren't people we're pissed off because they turned bus routes which have took roughly 30 minutes from Seaton Valley to Newcastle with the 363/364 which suddenly turned into 40/45+ minutes, even worse at rush hour while Cramlington had 6 buses an hour going direct. They we're both an absolute disaster and it cost Arriva big time around here as people turned to driving to the Metro and some haven't changed back. For the record I was one of those people and use the Metro much more than the X7 and it's all linked back to that and I know other people who do aswell.

The Freeman never lost it's link though as it was replaced by the 52 and before that it was the Ashington buses which eventually got dumped on the 57/57A, which we never did and still don't want, and lost the link to Rake Lane at the same time which was just as unpopular (both happened roughly the same time).

Stuff like that is the exact cause of the decline of passenger numbers and why bus companies shouldn't piss about with services which have been fine for years, one noticeably still doing it.


Even known it would probably do alright the catch-22 is you'd take passengers off the X10/X11 and make them unsustainable at 10/15 minutes (not sure it's returning) so you'd end up with empty buses from Blyth to Cramlington as there's not enough demand for a 10 minute service inbetween them.

Mind I do think they should divert the X20 and run it like the old X25/X26 did between Cowpen and Newcastle, the buses clearly aren't sustainable in their current form and it should only add 10 mins or so plus open new links from Ashington to Quorum all day (you could even divert one in the morning via the ministry and cancel the extended 52 runs). Then you could change the 52 to run the X8 route between Burradon and Cramlington so they'd have 3 buses an hour (it's got 9 mins, 1 express and 2 slower then change the X8 to run non-stop from Cowpen to Cramlington and run the 52 route to Burradon and the current route from there should knock a good 10 - 15 minutes off the service. Obviously interworking patterns etc would have to be changed though.

Is the X30 still operating, could they run that all day?

(21 Aug 2021, 6:45 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote Is the X30 still operating, could they run that all day?

Yea X30 is still running

The X30 would only be attractive to those in Newsham and Blyth town centre. There needs to be an express from Bebside and Cowpen as well (preferably straight onto the A189 without the faff of crossing Blyth).

(30 Aug 2021, 8:57 am)cbma06 wrote Park lane interchange is just a waste of space, to far away from the shops in the city centre, the location was on favoured because of the metro connection and civic centre (which will be no more), should of built it on the other location which housing the old Debenhams store/multi storey car park, when passengers are carrying all there heavy shopping bags trailing up park lane to get to the bus station, stagecoach decided to pull out because of the fees for each bus entering the interchange and also the added minutes to the timetables to serve the interchange. Should knock down the shops on the north side of holmside to blandford street and use this area for a bus station. GNE should bring back the X6 serving Burdon road (museum), Holmside then interchange and vice versa, many passengers have missed getting off in the central area of town to do shopping when gne took that section off when the X6 was split from the x20.

Similar to the example of Market Street East in Newcastle, it is literally a 5 minute walk from the middle of Market Square, which arguably is the centre of all the shops. 

If people can muster up the energy to walk around shops all morning, then surely they can manage the short walk to and from the bus station. Bags of shopping or not.

(30 Aug 2021, 6:39 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'm not sure anyone has ever suggested a bus being provided for every opportunity.
I've certainly suggested (and I know others have too), that the network is reimagined and it is adapted to suit changing travel patterns.
Before anyone gets on their protective high-horse - this isn't about one specific operator. 
It's the whole lot here in the NE and there are many examples of the network now, being as it was (or pretty similar) 20, 30, 40 years ago when town and city centres were king, out of town retail parks were new, business parks didn't exist and the internet was in its infancy (or didn't exist).

Yes, Drifter60 may have provided one example on one day, but who is to say that the residents living on the route of the 60, don't fancy a day out on the other side of the river?
Who is to say that people living on the north side of the river don't work at Seaham?
Or do we just pretend that keeping the status quo is good, changing buses is easy and ticketing works nicely?

Do the older style services work in a modern environment though, when there's say multiple buses that use the same corridor that go to completely different places work in the modern environment though? And I don't just mean the 56, 35, 12/13 and 3 all using North Hylton Road.

For example there was a time when there was a bus that followed the current 20 route to Sunderland then onto Seaham. It was and still is my main route to Sunderland, yet I don't seem to remember it in my childhood? I only ever remember getting the 535/536, or E6. I'm not sure how you'd incorporate that into a modern bus network. If I actually wanted to get to Seaham by bus, I think I'd probably just jump on the first bus that got me to Park Lane, then the first bus to Seaham from there, which I think the current system is built for? Would more people who don't plan public transport journeys like I do just wait for the bus that had Seaham written on the front, even if it was hourly, despite their being buses every 12 minutes across the whole route from the same operator?

I'm not really sure where the solution is, and whether people would use it more than the current system. Or am I missing a third option that is better than the old and new system?

(31 Aug 2021, 4:47 am)deanmachine wrote For example there was a time when there was a bus that followed the current 20 route to Sunderland then onto Seaham. It was and still is my main route to Sunderland, yet I don't seem to remember it in my childhood? I only ever remember getting the 535/536, or E6. I'm not sure how you'd incorporate that into a modern bus network. If I actually wanted to get to Seaham by bus, I think I'd probably just jump on the first bus that got me to Park Lane, then the first bus to Seaham from there, which I think the current system is built for? Would more people who don't plan public transport journeys like I do just wait for the bus that had Seaham written on the front, even if it was hourly, despite their being buses every 12 minutes across the whole route from the same operator?

I'm not really sure where the solution is, and whether people would use it more than the current system. Or am I missing a third option that is better than the old and new system?

The route between Seaham and South Shields was the 37 and I think it was launched in either 2000 or 2001 to compliment the 535/536 which had recently been renumbered to 35/36. Aside from not being a regular traveller to Seaham, one of the reasons you probably don't remember it is because it didn't last very long (maybe 18 months - max) while 535/536 were long established routes going back decades. People, in general, are conditioned to identify with what they know, so perhaps they were willing to let the 37 pass whilst waiting for the 35/36 (or 535/536 - whatever it was) as they were familiar with the service. Maybe that applied to you as well, I don't know...

Whether someone going to Seaham from South Shields would just jump onto the first bus to Park Lane then the first bus to Seaham might possibly depend on the frequency of the service (as you've pointed out); how frequently you travel the route; and the cost of the journey. If you travel by bus from South Shields to Seaham on a daily basis then you are probably going to have a weekly or monthly pass which means the cost of the journey is the same no matter what. However, if you travel infrequently between South Shields and Seaham and find out there is a direct bus, then it is likely you're going to use that bus because it is easier (no connecting journey) and possibly cheaper.

In the past, when I was in my teens in the early 90s and bus fares were only either 10p or 15p, catching one bus instead of two is going to save me 15p (or 30p taking into account the return journey). Using the same psychology now, if taking advantage of GNE's £1 evening fare, the same principle applies. So if I travelled from Winlaton to Wardley (and back), it would only cost me £2 using the 69, or £4 if I decided to take the more frequent option of catching the 57 to Gateshead and the 49 back to Winlaton. If time wasn't an issue, I'd go with the cheaper option.

The third option, might be a compromise where, if there are more than two possible combinations of journeys between destinations taking a similar amount of time, the single fare option is applied as long as the journey is completed within a certain time. So, in theory, it might be something similar to the old TRANSFARE system, where, just using the example of the 57/49/49a again, you can make the same journey as long as you transfer onto the 49 within a 30 minute time window at Gateshead. That might be a way forward...

(31 Aug 2021, 4:47 am)deanmachine wrote Do the older style services work in a modern environment though, when there's say multiple buses that use the same corridor that go to completely different places work in the modern environment though? And I don't just mean the 56, 35, 12/13 and 3 all using North Hylton Road.

For example there was a time when there was a bus that followed the current 20 route to Sunderland then onto Seaham. It was and still is my main route to Sunderland, yet I don't seem to remember it in my childhood? I only ever remember getting the 535/536, or E6. I'm not sure how you'd incorporate that into a modern bus network. If I actually wanted to get to Seaham by bus, I think I'd probably just jump on the first bus that got me to Park Lane, then the first bus to Seaham from there, which I think the current system is built for? Would more people who don't plan public transport journeys like I do just wait for the bus that had Seaham written on the front, even if it was hourly, despite their being buses every 12 minutes across the whole route from the same operator?

I'm not really sure where the solution is, and whether people would use it more than the current system. Or am I missing a third option that is better than the old and new system?

I think frequency is a major part in someone using a service. I also think there are other factors to take in to account such a pricing, journey time, branding and any other conditioning factors that come from familiarity or something else.

I've mentioned ratio and probability in the past and I think it plays a part in the success (or lack of) with a particular service.
Old Durham Road is probably a key example. It has a mixture of frequent and in-frequent services and I'd hazard a guess that for someone travelling between Gateshead and the QE, they would end up on one of the more frequent buses such as the 56 or 57 as opposed to something like the 28 - regardless of any stand allocations at the Interchange.

It is probably why the likes of the 925, 938 etc never survived and why the 238 was withdrawn. The 238 was never going to compete between Sunderland and Seaham, versus the 60 and probably struggled for local trips too.

I genuinely don't think hub and spoke works as well as operators believe it does or want it to work.

I know someone who lives in the Roker/Fulwell area and who works in Seaham Business Park near Blast Beach. He doesn't drive. 
Whilst I'm not saying he deserves a bus to take him to/from work, I do know that using public transport is always his last resort.
He will do anything to get a lift, over using the bus.

The train isn't an option to/from Sunderland (despite it being quicker), due to the poor connectivity to other modes of transport at Seaham.

Yes, it is just one example - but it is possibly a snapshot of the issues commuters face in that because there's never been an established, regular connection between two points, operators think that should never be a regular connection between the two points.
Except, maybe there should be. Or at least something that is better than what we have now.

(31 Aug 2021, 11:23 am)Andreos1 wrote I think frequency is a major part in someone using a service. I also think there are other factors to take in to account such a pricing, journey time, branding and any other conditioning factors that come from familiarity or something else.

I've mentioned ratio and probability in the past and I think it plays a part in the success (or lack of) with a particular service.
Old Durham Road is probably a key example. It has a mixture of frequent and in-frequent services and I'd hazard a guess that for someone travelling between Gateshead and the QE, they would end up on one of the more frequent buses such as the 56 or 57 as opposed to something like the 28 - regardless of any stand allocations at the Interchange.

It is probably why the likes of the 925, 938 etc never survived and why the 238 was withdrawn. The 238 was never going to compete between Sunderland and Seaham, versus the 60 and probably struggled for local trips too.

I genuinely don't think hub and spoke works as well as operators believe it does or want it to work.

I know someone who lives in the Roker/Fulwell area and who works in Seaham Business Park near Blast Beach. He doesn't drive. 
Whilst I'm not saying he deserves a bus to take him to/from work, I do know that using public transport is always his last resort.
He will do anything to get a lift, over using the bus.

The train isn't an option to/from Sunderland (despite it being quicker), due to the poor connectivity to other modes of transport at Seaham.

Yes, it is just one example - but it is possibly a snapshot of the issues commuters face in that because there's never been an established, regular connection between two points, operators think that should never be a regular connection between the two points.
Except, maybe there should be. Or at least something that is better than what we have now.

I must say the 238 I used it oftern between Sunderland - Houghton and it was quite busy.

(31 Aug 2021, 11:23 am)Andreos1 wrote I think frequency is a major part in someone using a service. I also think there are other factors to take in to account such a pricing, journey time, branding and any other conditioning factors that come from familiarity or something else.

I've mentioned ratio and probability in the past and I think it plays a part in the success (or lack of) with a particular service.
Old Durham Road is probably a key example. It has a mixture of frequent and in-frequent services and I'd hazard a guess that for someone travelling between Gateshead and the QE, they would end up on one of the more frequent buses such as the 56 or 57 as opposed to something like the 28 - regardless of any stand allocations at the Interchange.

It is probably why the likes of the 925, 938 etc never survived and why the 238 was withdrawn. The 238 was never going to compete between Sunderland and Seaham, versus the 60 and probably struggled for local trips too.

I genuinely don't think hub and spoke works as well as operators believe it does or want it to work.

I know someone who lives in the Roker/Fulwell area and who works in Seaham Business Park near Blast Beach. He doesn't drive. 
Whilst I'm not saying he deserves a bus to take him to/from work, I do know that using public transport is always his last resort.
He will do anything to get a lift, over using the bus.

The train isn't an option to/from Sunderland (despite it being quicker), due to the poor connectivity to other modes of transport at Seaham.

Yes, it is just one example - but it is possibly a snapshot of the issues commuters face in that because there's never been an established, regular connection between two points, operators think that should never be a regular connection between the two points.
Except, maybe there should be. Or at least something that is better than what we have now.

I think frequency can be a major part, but I don't think it can be the be-all and end-all, as it has often been marketed in the past. For me, it's just as important to make sure that proper thought goes into connections (in both directions) with less frequent services, but perhaps the ones that are used to get people to the high frequency service that takes them from A to B. When high frequency isn't appropriate, then the timing of terminus departures are key to me. Because when you're trying to attract people from the convenience of a car, you have to remember that they don't turn up to a car park and stand around for 25 minutes before their car is ready to depart.

If I use the 50 as an example from Durham, from 4pm onwards (which is generally the earliest daytime workers will leave work), you've just missed the 15.57, you've got the 16.32, 17.09, 17.39 and then 18.06 is the last one. So you end up in the situation where it's just far too tight for people finishing work on the hour/half past the hour (as shifts usually do) to catch any of those, and quite a long time for people be stood around waiting for the next one that is due.

You of course can split the journey at Chester-le-Street, but the X21 doesn't connect with the 50 (apart from the 17.16 out of Durham) nor the 8. The 8's Sunderland-bound departures from CLS are timetabled very close to the 50, rather than planning it so that it creates more of a clock-face frequency. Problems that still exist post 5th September.

(31 Aug 2021, 1:19 pm)Adrian wrote I think frequency can be a major part, but I don't think it can be the be-all and end-all, as it has often been marketed in the past. For me, it's just as important to make sure that proper thought goes into connections (in both directions) with less frequent services, but perhaps the ones that are used to get people to the high frequency service that takes them from A to B. When high frequency isn't appropriate, then the timing of terminus departures are key to me. Because when you're trying to attract people from the convenience of a car, you have to remember that they don't turn up to a car park and stand around for 25 minutes before their car is ready to depart.

If I use the 50 as an example from Durham, from 4pm onwards (which is generally the earliest daytime workers will leave work), you've just missed the 15.57, you've got the 16.32, 17.09, 17.39 and then 18.06 is the last one. So you end up in the situation where it's just far too tight for people finishing work on the hour/half past the hour (as shifts usually do) to catch any of those, and quite a long time for people be stood around waiting for the next one that is due.

You of course can split the journey at Chester-le-Street, but the X21 doesn't connect with the 50 (apart from the 17.16 out of Durham) nor the 8. The 8's Sunderland-bound departures from CLS are timetabled very close to the 50, rather than planning it so that it creates more of a clock-face frequency. Problems that still exist post 5th September.

Couldn't agree more.
Timetabling and connections are a factor too.

Chester on an evening, is nothing but a mess. No co-ordination at all between services.

Then there's the 71 and 78 between Chester and Woodstone Village which don't work either. 60mins in an hour and they have the two services as they are, with very little headway in one direction and a bit more in the other.

Joined up thinking with a hub and spoke model? What's that all about?

(31 Aug 2021, 1:19 pm)Adrian wrote I think frequency can be a major part, but I don't think it can be the be-all and end-all, as it has often been marketed in the past. For me, it's just as important to make sure that proper thought goes into connections (in both directions) with less frequent services, but perhaps the ones that are used to get people to the high frequency service that takes them from A to B. When high frequency isn't appropriate, then the timing of terminus departures are key to me. Because when you're trying to attract people from the convenience of a car, you have to remember that they don't turn up to a car park and stand around for 25 minutes before their car is ready to depart.

If I use the 50 as an example from Durham, from 4pm onwards (which is generally the earliest daytime workers will leave work), you've just missed the 15.57, you've got the 16.32, 17.09, 17.39 and then 18.06 is the last one. So you end up in the situation where it's just far too tight for people finishing work on the hour/half past the hour (as shifts usually do) to catch any of those, and quite a long time for people be stood around waiting for the next one that is due.

You of course can split the journey at Chester-le-Street, but the X21 doesn't connect with the 50 (apart from the 17.16 out of Durham) nor the 8. The 8's Sunderland-bound departures from CLS are timetabled very close to the 50, rather than planning it so that it creates more of a clock-face frequency. Problems that still exist post 5th September.

I used to hate the connections when I was going to University at St Peters because neither the 2/2A or 8 from Washington  used to Connect well to the 700/702 in Sunderland so i'd have a 15 to 20 Minute wait depending on the time of day.
 If I was coming home I would go 700/702, 78 then X1 or 4 because it was easier (and suprisingly quicker with the X1 as well).