(20 Dec 2021, 12:12 pm)Storx wrote Train: 1 hour 20 mins
Bus: 1 hour 45 mins

There's quite a big difference between Middlesbrough and Newcastle and a train will very likely take 1 hour 20 mins, a bus on the otherhand is linked to other traffic so could take much much longer and on such a long route it's not rare.

Neither have connections either. There's nothing at all in Middlesbrough and there's very little North of Newcastle either. Durham / Sunderland passengers won't be travelling via the X10 and would use the X12 or train instead. Passengers in Peterlee are more likely to have Arriva day tickets aswell since they offer more services and could use the X22 especially if they live on the route, the time it takes to change will knock off the 20 minutes in time difference.

I don't care what anyone says on here the worst train (excluding buses on rails) is better than the best conventional bus. There's more space, there's toilets, there's tables, the ride is better generally, they rarely break down, there's rarely traffic issues.

I'd take a Class 156 or Class 158 anyday over any Alexander Dennis or Wright bus with as many fancy mod cons they can attempt to squeeze on even if it cost 40% more and most of the GP will agree. As soon as the Newcastle to Middlesbrough eventually go every 30 minutes, then it's incomparable.

It's not a co-incidence the two routes competing against trains are struggling.

I think that's the key point really. Since northern have got their act together, getting rid of the pacers and replacing them with refurbished 156's and 158's, the benefit of taking the bus over the train has been minimised. In particular looking at Hexham you've now got two fast trains an hour to Newcastle plus the stopping service - there's pretty fierce competition there

Lets be clear:
- 6301-07 have been put aside for Washington & CLS.

- 6331-33 make up 1x of the PVR of the X45/X46. The other 2x are then available as Euro 6 spares for the X45/X46/47/47A alongside 6064. 6336-37 will then be enough to provide low height spares for the X30's / X70's.

- 6338-40 will then be surplus. When the X9/X10 return to full PVR, they could then make up the PVR with 6377 or a B9TL standing in as needed. Dropping the X9 and re-routing the X10 if anything could have an adverse effect and potentially lose passengers.

- Any reduction to the 309/310/311 will only achieve a PVR reduction of 2x vehicles at most. The benefits of keeping the same level service as now would outweigh the cost of any reductions. GNE are now the main operator on the Coast Road and have long shrugged off the image of being the 'Micky Mouse' operator. Likewise unless BSIP has any involvement, it will be Arriva who will reduce frequencies first to streamline capacity and reduce their PVR.

(20 Dec 2021, 12:47 pm)peter wrote I think that's the key point really. Since northern have got their act together, getting rid of the pacers and replacing them with refurbished 156's and 158's, the benefit of taking the bus over the train has been minimised. In particular looking at Hexham you've now got two fast trains an hour to Newcastle plus the stopping service - there's pretty fierce competition there

If I were going to Hexham for the day, I'd pick bus over train without question, unless I just fancied a walk around Homebase, Waitrose or Tesco, as it's a right trek up the hill, the bus takes me where I'd actually want to go.


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(20 Dec 2021, 12:57 pm)streetdeckfan wrote If I were going to Hexham for the day, I'd pick bus over train without question, unless I just fancied a walk around Homebase, Waitrose or Tesco, as it's a right trek up the hill, the bus takes me where I'd actually want to go.


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I miss Robbs

(20 Dec 2021, 11:56 am)Keeiajs wrote Well they would only need 2, so 6332-3, whcih have been freed up since X47 was removed from X-lines Brand.

I was hoping they could increase the Angel services to Durham to every 20 mins, with 1 terminating at Durham.

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When you say external factors, or due to circumstances it might be the thing that the last X10 is at 20:22, which for a lot of people is too early in Newcastle especially if they work at say eldon Square, for example the last X1 to Dalton park is 17:50, and Tbh I think that is a bit early especially with all this Christmas shopping, there should be on at 19:00 and 20:00, and the X10 the last one should be 22:00 imo.

The external factors in this case could be the pandemic, the A19, RTC's and opening hours at places along the route.
They're things that GNE can't control and have very little (if any) influence over.

They can react to those external influences and put measures in to place to counter them.

(20 Dec 2021, 12:57 pm)streetdeckfan wrote If I were going to Hexham for the day, I'd pick bus over train without question, unless I just fancied a walk around Homebase, Waitrose or Tesco, as it's a right trek up the hill, the bus takes me where I'd actually want to go.


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I agree with you but since the changes in the summer the X85 only runs to/from Hexham bus station with the exception of a few peak time runs. In the days where it served Newbrough to the west it served the whole town all day, they’ve really played into the hands of the 685 here. So if you’re going to trek from the west of Hexham to the bus station in the east perhaps people would rather trek to the train station or get the 685?

(19 Dec 2021, 11:36 pm)Wybus wrote If this is true I’m starting to think those union members who were saying that GNE were spending too much money on paint might have a point. We’ve already seen a quick change on the X5/X15 now this.

I’m not sure they’ve really given enough time for stuff to work, either loadings on the X84/X85 or the X9/X10, how long as there really been when buses have been completely normal - no social distancing, no masks, no working from home/distance learning, no general thoughts that people should take leisure travel a bit steady, no shortages of drivers making travel unreliable - I think it’s amounted to a few days!

Times are hard - I doubt any company can continue running services that are clearly carrying not carrying very many passengers. 
X85 was always going to be a challenge to make commercial.

The X10 was always busy because it had a similar journey time to the coast line train (1 hour 20 mins) and was cheaper - now that it's taking 1 hour 44 minutes the advantage over the train simply isn't there any longer. Plus, the rolling stock on the coast line has improved and pulling out of Eldon Square, moving to a Shelter less stop in Newgate Street, will not have helped passenger numbers.
X9 was only introduced when ENCTS became free anywhere in England and passenger numbers required a frequency increase on X10 - alas, ENCTS passengers seem to have been the slowest to return to using buses. Regrettably I think that the X10 has passed its peak.

At least Go North East tried!

(20 Dec 2021, 1:21 pm)Kramer1 wrote I agree with you but since the changes in the summer the X85 only runs to/from Hexham bus station with the exception of a few peak time runs. In the days where it served Newbrough to the west it served the whole town all day, they’ve really played into the hands of the 685 here. So if you’re going to trek from the west of Hexham to the bus station in the east perhaps people would rather trek to the train station or get the 685?

The walk from the bus station into the town centre is relatively flat, so it's not that difficult of a walk, certainly better than from the train station.
I'm not sure what I hate more, walking up the hill, or walking back down with shopping!

(20 Dec 2021, 12:20 pm)Keeiajs wrote Maybe the X9 can return, to take it Via Durham.   However Newcastle to Middlesbrough every 30 mins I doubt it will happen atleast for the next 2 years. 
I think Eldon Square the final blow tbh.

I was talking about the trains there. I believe it's planned for the May 22 timetable changes. It's been on the cards for ages, originally meant to go via Durham and Stillington as it's quicker but there's no paths so they're both now going by the coast. 

There's been talk of it being limited stop though to make it quicker assuming missing the likes of Billingham and Seaton Carew which will hit the X9/X10 even more. If they can get it close to an hour.

I still think branding it x lines was a big mistake and should've been its own brand like Greenline down London which is also axing routes aswell and blaming it on the train. Hemel Hempstead just went very recently.

(20 Dec 2021, 2:15 pm)Storx wrote I still think branding it x lines was a big mistake and should've been its own brand like Greenline down London which is also axing routes aswell and blaming it on the train. Hemel Hempstead just went very recently.

Tyne Tees Xpress or Tyne Tees ExpressLink would work best for the X9/X10.

Are we not just seeing an element of realism here from GNE? (apologies Mods if this goes off topic)

The market is struggling. If you can't convince pre-pandemic Customers back, you aren't going to attract new ones no matter how many bells and whistles you put on things.

Commute numbers are down, hybrid is here to stay permanently and less days in the office make a car more affordable if you're only running it a few days a week versus 5 - so there's your commuter market hit.

The pandemic has ironically strengthened hyper local behaviours so people are returning to their local high street, rediscovering their local area and they don't need to trek in to a large conurbation when they can get what they need locally and the rest from online - so there's another market gone.

Pensioners are being hit with high inflation and less disposable income so although the bus is free they aren't out and about as much as they don't have the money - added in with a general nervousness around the pandemic of course.

You're then really left with leisure passengers who might use the bus, might use uber, might get a lift, might get a train - they aren't committed to one mode of transport.

There probably can be questions raised around the deal to lose the Streetdecks for the Coaches but there's an element here of speculate to accumulate and we all call for GNE to try stuff and I'll hold my hands up - I was calling for Oxford Tube style services since Day 1 - but the market has changed, it hasn't recovered and will take a long long time to - if ever.

My issue is with this, is that GNE gave 9 Streetdecks to oxford, whcih were paid for and GNE got some unreliable coaches on LEASE. 

GNE were stupid to take that deal.

(20 Dec 2021, 2:36 pm)Keeiajs wrote My issue is with this, is that GNE gave 9 Streetdecks to oxford, whcih were paid for and GNE got some unreliable coaches on LEASE. 

GNE were stupid to take that deal.

Not at the time they weren't. But things have changed since then and things do change.

Likewise before COVID, the coaches were supposed to run an airport route but again like other things, that sharp curbed the need for them to serve that purpose.

GNE I think are making a sensible decision to revert back to buses. The E400MMC should be at least as capable as the Volvo B9TLs if not, more given the track record of Arriva's classics running the X15/X18. Not forgetting the opportunity to serve Eldon Square again.

I don't see why GNE didn't just go for ZF ADL E400MMCs in the first place for the X9/X10 back in 2017 considering the E400City was trialled rather than staying loyal to Wrights who could only offer underpowered hairdryers (for that route) in either Daimler or Volvo guise.

(20 Dec 2021, 2:21 pm)Ambassador wrote Are we not just seeing an element of realism here from GNE? (apologies Mods if this goes off topic)

The market is struggling. If you can't convince pre-pandemic Customers back, you aren't going to attract new ones no matter how many bells and whistles you put on things.

Commute numbers are down, hybrid is here to stay permanently and less days in the office make a car more affordable if you're only running it a few days a week versus 5 - so there's your commuter market hit.

The pandemic has ironically strengthened hyper local behaviours so people are returning to their local high street, rediscovering their local area and they don't need to trek in to a large conurbation when they can get what they need locally and the rest from online - so there's another market gone.

Pensioners are being hit with high inflation and less disposable income so although the bus is free they aren't out and about as much as they don't have the money - added in with a general nervousness around the pandemic of course.

You're then really left with leisure passengers who might use the bus, might use uber, might get a lift, might get a train - they aren't committed to one mode of transport.

There probably can be questions raised around the deal to lose the Streetdecks for the Coaches but there's an element here of speculate to accumulate and we all call for GNE to try stuff and I'll hold my hands up - I was calling for Oxford Tube style services since Day 1 - but the market has changed, it hasn't recovered and will take a long long time to - if ever.

I agree with a lot of what you have said here. 
However, if we look at the bigger picture - I'm struggling to see what positive measures have been put in to place beyond a re-brand, Dalton Park and the coach allocation.

* There's nothing at the southern end of the route that connects from its own operations. 
Even in the places where there are connections, I don't see any obvious promotion/timetabling between say a local Peterlee service and the X9 or a 65 to/from Dalton Park with the X10. 
* Then there are ticketing implications for passengers looking to make those changes. Is it obvious which of the many ticketing options is the right one for them?
* Pricing/timing vs the train (as has been pointed out already) isn't weighted in GNE's favour.
* Re-routing of the service to suit passenger needs hasn't happened. 
* Timetable tweaks or adaptations haven't been implemented to suit customer needs. 

Then there's been years worth of road works at Testos and Wynyard/Norton.

I accept the pandemic has played a part, however I'm of the belief that GNE need to hold their hands up and say they've not done enough.
We've essentially got the same service as we had when it was a joint operation 30 years ago and somehow, it's expected to work now as it did then.

(20 Dec 2021, 2:36 pm)Keeiajs wrote My issue is with this, is that GNE gave 9 Streetdecks to oxford, whcih were paid for and GNE got some unreliable coaches on LEASE. 

GNE were stupid to take that deal.

I don't think they were paid for by GNE, I believe either MG or Dan said they are paid for on delivery, and since GNE didn't receive them they wouldn't pay for them

I also believe that vehicles are bought by the group then leased to the subsidiary, so the StreetDecks would be paid for by Oxford rather than GNE

(20 Dec 2021, 2:47 pm)L469 YVK wrote Not at the time they weren't. But things have changed since then and things do change.

Likewise before COVID, the coaches were supposed to run an airport route but again like other things, that sharp curbed the need for them to serve that purpose.

GNE I think are making a sensible decision to revert back to buses. The E400MMC should be at least as capable as the Volvo B9TLs if not, more given the track record of Arriva's classics running the X15/X18. Not forgetting the opportunity to serve Eldon Square again.

I don't see why GNE didn't just go for ZF ADL E400MMCs in the first place for the X9/X10 back in 2017 considering the E400City was trialled rather than staying loyal to Wrights who could only offer underpowered hairdryers (for that route) in either Daimler or Volvo guise.

I wonder what the E400 City would be like, they would be a night fit for the X21 tbh. Get those current ones on the 27, with some ex 21's if the EV bid becomes successful. And stick whats left on the 58. 

X9/X10 (If the X9 does come back) they should be really getting either Six Cylinder Streetdecks, or E400's. But I wonder how the E500 would handle.

When it used to be at oxford what was the reliability like, was it has had as it has been since they have came. I do wonder what is the main issues with them. GNE was done dirty.

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(20 Dec 2021, 2:49 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't think they were paid for by GNE, I believe either MG or Dan said they are paid for on delivery, and since GNE didn't receive them they wouldn't pay for them

I also believe that vehicles are bought by the group then leased to the subsidiary, so the StreetDecks would be paid for by Oxford rather than GNE

Not really the fact that they were paid or not for. Its the case that GNE lost 9 perfect Streetdeck, for buses which have worse reliability than any other buses in the fleet.

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(20 Dec 2021, 2:49 pm)Andreos1 wrote I agree with a lot of what you have said here. 
However, if we look at the bigger picture - I'm struggling to see what positive measures have been put in to place beyond a re-brand, Dalton Park and the coach allocation.

* There's nothing at the southern end of the route that connects from its own operations. 
Even in the places where there are connections, I don't see any obvious promotion/timetabling between say a local Peterlee service and the X9 or a 65 to/from Dalton Park with the X10. 
* Then there are ticketing implications for passengers looking to make those changes. Is it obvious which of the many ticketing options is the right one for them?
* Pricing/timing vs the train (as has been pointed out already) isn't weighted in GNE's favour.
* Re-routing of the service to suit passenger needs hasn't happened. 
* Timetable tweaks or adaptations haven't been implemented to suit customer needs. 

Then there's been years worth of road works at Testos and Wynyard/Norton.

I accept the pandemic has played a part, however I'm of the belief that GNE need to hold their hands up and say they've not done enough.
We've essentially got the same service as we had when it was a joint operation 30 years ago and somehow, it's expected to work now as it did then.

What in the route would you change?

(20 Dec 2021, 1:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The walk from the bus station into the town centre is relatively flat, so it's not that difficult of a walk, certainly better than from the train station.
I'm not sure what I hate more, walking up the hill, or walking back down with shopping!

Yes it is. My point though is that most Hexham residents now have a choice of trekking to the bus station for the X85 or catching the 685 anywhere along the main road right through the town, previously served all day by the X85. GNE presumably did this to save on PVR. Now due to the X85’s demise the fastest bus between Hexham and Newcastle is that of a rival operator but in the current climate they presumably can’t both survive.

(20 Dec 2021, 3:18 pm)Kramer1 wrote Yes it is. My point though is that most Hexham residents now have a choice of trekking to the bus station for the X85 or catching the 685 anywhere along the main road right through the town, previously served all day by the X85. GNE presumably did this to save on PVR. Now due to the X85’s demise the fastest bus between Hexham and Newcastle is that of a rival operator but in the current climate they presumably can’t both survive.

The X85 is a commercial venture. The X84, and all other local bus services in Hexham, are secured by Northumberland County Council.

The X85 no longer runs to Newbrough because that section of the route was secured at the time, and Northumberland County Council wanted it to be a separate service.

(20 Dec 2021, 3:26 pm)Dan wrote The X85 is a commercial venture. The X84, and all other local bus services in Hexham, are secured by Northumberland County Council.

The X85 no longer runs to Newbrough because that section of the route was secured at the time, and Northumberland County Council wanted it to be a separate service.

Interesting. Thank you for the info.

Saying that, if GNE were to drop the X9 and just have the X10, I would suggest looking at a full fleet evaluation of the E400MMCs & Volvo B5TLs. The major deciding factor would be the evening & Sunday interworking patterns at Consett. But, if it would be feasible to adjust the interworking patterns:

Service changes
X30/X31 (PVR 5)- Revised to operate standalone from X70/X71/X72 during at least Monday to Saturday daytimes. Revised timetable with more recovery and layover time at both ends of the route.

X70/X71/X72 (PVR 7)- Revised to operate standalone from X30/X31 during at least Monday to Saturday daytimes. Revised timetable with more recovery and layover time.

ADL E400MMC
6336-37 - Consett - Spare
6338-42 - Consett - X30/X31
6343-51 - Chester Le Street - X21
6352-55 - Riverside - X10 (IF X9 is dropped and PVR reduces to 4x)

Volvo B5TL
6308-14 - Consett - X70/X71/X72
6334-35 - Consett - Spare

Wright StreetDeck
6331 - Consett - X45/X46 (stays at Consett)
6332 - Consett - Spare (stays at Consett)
6333 - Chester Le Street - Spare
6377 - Riverside - Spare

(20 Dec 2021, 3:26 pm)Dan wrote The X85 is a commercial venture. The X84, and all other local bus services in Hexham, are secured by Northumberland County Council.

The X85 no longer runs to Newbrough because that section of the route was secured at the time, and Northumberland County Council wanted it to be a separate service.

Are the evening and Sunday trips on the X85 going to continue to run? With Versas allocated? Could we see Versas on the 74 soon? Perhaps the 74 and X85 could serve Central Station? 

Would it be possible to extend the 42A to Kingston Park Tesco? Maybe run it along the M71 route to Westerhope? Nexus could secure the 42A from Dinnington to Westerhope via Kingston Park and Tesco Car Park and withdraw the M71? Hope to see the 42A stick around. Unfortunate the 42A can't be extended from Kingston Park into town, or maybe the M71 Kingston Park into town via Westerhope and West Denton Shops. 13 could alternatively run into town from West Denton Shops.

(20 Dec 2021, 5:05 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Are the evening and Sunday trips on the X85 going to continue to run? With Versas allocated? Could we see Versas on the 74 soon? Perhaps the 74 and X85 could serve Central Station? 

Would it be possible to extend the 42A to Kingston Park Tesco? Maybe run it along the M71 route to Westerhope? Nexus could secure the 42A from Dinnington to Westerhope via Kingston Park and Tesco Car Park and withdraw the M71? Hope to see the 42A stick around. Unfortunate the 42A can't be extended from Kingston Park into town, or maybe the M71 Kingston Park into town via Westerhope and West Denton Shops. 13 could alternatively run into town from West Denton Shops.

really, they could keep the X85 and run it Via the Metrocentre, that would keep it profitable. But with the NCC musten be best pleased that the X84 is loosing such high spec vechiles

(20 Dec 2021, 5:11 pm)Keeiajs wrote really, they could keep the X85 and run it Via the Metrocentre, that would keep it profitable. But with the NCC musten be best pleased that the X84 is loosing such high spec vechiles

Surely the point of X85 is to provide an express service from Hexham and Corbridge to Newcastle, adding in the metrocentre would only detract from that and I doubt NCC are paying for such high spec vehicles in the first place. I think it comes down to capacity and accessibility, anything else is GNE trying to attract more passengers.

(20 Dec 2021, 5:58 pm)Kramer1 wrote Surely the point of X85 is to provide an express service from Hexham and Corbridge to Newcastle, adding in the metrocentre would only detract from that and I doubt NCC are paying for such high spec vehicles in the first place. I think it comes down to capacity and accessibility, anything else is GNE trying to attract more passengers.

But surely going Via Central Station & Metrocentre will attract more passengers. Or Maybe upto kingston park or NCL

(20 Dec 2021, 6:09 pm)Keeiajs wrote But surely going Via Central Station & Metrocentre will attract more passengers. Or Maybe upto kingston park or NCL

Wouldn't that just essentially be the 10?

(20 Dec 2021, 6:16 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Wouldn't that just essentially be the 10?

Aldepends which way it goes, whether it joins the A1, then upto the A69, or whether it continues upto Prudhoe and Blaydon

(20 Dec 2021, 5:05 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Are the evening and Sunday trips on the X85 going to continue to run? With Versas allocated? Could we see Versas on the 74 soon? Perhaps the 74 and X85 could serve Central Station? 

Would it be possible to extend the 42A to Kingston Park Tesco? Maybe run it along the M71 route to Westerhope? Nexus could secure the 42A from Dinnington to Westerhope via Kingston Park and Tesco Car Park and withdraw the M71? Hope to see the 42A stick around. Unfortunate the 42A can't be extended from Kingston Park into town, or maybe the M71 Kingston Park into town via Westerhope and West Denton Shops. 13 could alternatively run into town from West Denton Shops.

Admit this is dragging the thread off topic a bit but the 42A should terminate at Killingworth.

Then there should be a new service running the 57 from Ashington to Cramlington, direct to Dudley, then the remaining of the 42A route.

The 54 should then be downgraded to Solo's permanently (it's ran by them on a Sunday now anyway) and interwork with the 57A which would run every 30 minutes (no 57 as it's not needed south of Cramlington, the 19 does it).

Would reintroduce a bus service from SE Northumberland to the airport and there's no need for the 19/57 both doing Wansbeck through Seaton Valley to North Tyneside it's overkill and Seaton Valley would get a link to North Tyneside hospital on a connecting bus.

Doesn't help your GNE buses but the 42A is totally out of zone and really needs to be an Arriva or Stagecoach service (it's contracted North of Killingworth).

(20 Dec 2021, 6:59 pm)Keeiajs wrote Aldepends which way it goes, whether it joins the A1, then upto the A69, or whether it continues upto Prudhoe and Blaydon

Both journeys take roughly the same amount of time (in the car at least), so they might as well just run it through Blaydon and Prudhoe to pick up some extra passengers

(20 Dec 2021, 7:04 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Both journeys take roughly the same amount of time (in the car at least), so they might as well just run it through Blaydon and Prudhoe to pick up some extra passengers

I think going Via A69 would be quicker, possibly under 1 hour.

It seems 'Commuter Express' runs are on their way out at least under current circumstances and its not just here, Green Line routes are being withdrawn and King's Ferry are also scrapping their commuter express runs after service on Friday due to reduced demand since COVID hit.

COVID seems to have been one of the biggest killers for the X9/X10 as it has been for the last several years due to less people travelling because of restrictions and feeling uneasy about travelling or going out in general.

I think other factors have also led to its downfall over the years such as reliability such as breakdowns, late running, works at Testos, I wouldn't be surprised if some changes that went with the introduction of coaches being introduced also were a factor for its demise such as being less accessible for those with mobility issues (Arriva got loads of complaints when they made their X66 between Darlington & Middlesbrough coach operated in the past) and also pulling the service out of Eldon Square, have encountered passengers asking in Eldon Square for a bus to Middlesbrough with some even opting for the X12 due to them being unaware of the X9/X10 being moved out and just assume its been withdrawn. The train has also been a challenge to compete with, although it hasn't gone near to Peterlee for years, the opening of Horden Station in the last year may have impacted the numbers with some who may have travelled into Peterlee previously instead travelling to Horden Station and getting the train in and let's face it, where would rather wait, a well lit train station or a little grotty shelter on the slip-road to the A19?

Similar issues have fallen on the X85 except with that one they've tried to go against the train by making it faster and running it into the evening but at the expense of omitting Heddon & Horsley which resulted into the passengers being left with the longer journey on the X84 into Hexham or the 685 and whilst there may be three buses an hour between Hexham and Newcastle (excluding 10 & 74) they leave Hexham Bus Station within the space of 6 minutes during off peak hours (X85: 39 mins past, 685: 44 mins past, X84: 45 mins past) what use is that?! It's actually the thing that's stopped me going to Hexham as there's times I've thought about doing some of the other runs around Hexham but put off when I find I have something like 40 minutes to wait for a bus because all three leave at virtually the same time.

The driver shortages and articles being published stating such is off putting to passenger and not exactly going to attract many if you know this, even less so when the shortages actually fall on you, I hate a bus being cancelled on the Sapphire 7 with a 20 minute frequency, what must people think on a less frequent route like the above? Doesn't even need to actually happen, just the thought that it *could* happen is off putting for many, myself included.