Route Development | Network Expansion & New Services
Route Development | Network Expansion & New Services
(29 Dec 2021, 8:48 pm)Adrian You should have a look through the BSIP plan in full, because the proposed Superbus routes (Red and Green) are included in the document. I use the term routes and not services, because it's illustrated as point to point between two places, not as GNE 1 or SNE 22 for example. See Page 99.
Doesn't look like the GNE 1 or SNE 22 in their current forms will be a Superbus route, as there's nothing between Wallsend and North Shields. There doesn't need to be either, as the Metro exists. North Shields to Whitley Bay and to Blyth are a Green route, so the proposal is a 10 minute daytime frequency along there.
I don't even think it's about BSIP being implemented or marked correctly at this stage. It's how much of the £804 million is going to be on offer, because around 40% of what was being asked for is revenue support "to subsidise the continuation of existing services in light of Covid-related financial shortfalls" and revenue support "to support the introduction of lower fares and expanded route networks."
There's no published plan B, so it remains to be seen what can be done with the minimal amount of funding that we're likely to receive. We'll be lucky if we get 20% of what we've put in for.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:48 pm)Adrian You should have a look through the BSIP plan in full, because the proposed Superbus routes (Red and Green) are included in the document. I use the term routes and not services, because it's illustrated as point to point between two places, not as GNE 1 or SNE 22 for example. See Page 99.
Doesn't look like the GNE 1 or SNE 22 in their current forms will be a Superbus route, as there's nothing between Wallsend and North Shields. There doesn't need to be either, as the Metro exists. North Shields to Whitley Bay and to Blyth are a Green route, so the proposal is a 10 minute daytime frequency along there.
I don't even think it's about BSIP being implemented or marked correctly at this stage. It's how much of the £804 million is going to be on offer, because around 40% of what was being asked for is revenue support "to subsidise the continuation of existing services in light of Covid-related financial shortfalls" and revenue support "to support the introduction of lower fares and expanded route networks."
There's no published plan B, so it remains to be seen what can be done with the minimal amount of funding that we're likely to receive. We'll be lucky if we get 20% of what we've put in for.
(29 Dec 2021, 5:50 pm)Dan The original point of discussion was regarding Go North East 'exploiting other changes to travel pattern demands etc and potentially capitalising', and your comment was that 'don't think the powers that be at GNE towers think that such things exist beyond a couple of once a day services to Whitby or Belsay.'
You added that you 'can't think of the last regular service they introduced' but all those services in my original post have been introduced. To the users of these services, they're new services.
To the people in Brandon, Meadowfield and Langley Moor, they have a new bus route which takes them directly to New College Durham and the Arnison Centre. Yes, that bus route may have existed in the late 80s in another format, but it hasn't for a very long time (I assume you're not referring to the most recent incarnation of the X46 which was basically the bus running in service between Crook and Durham rather than out of service). In some respects it's disappointing that you don't view them as such, but I'm glad you see them as positives.
The 21 is a prime example of a service being extended and diverted to offer a vast number of new connections to places previously not served - exactly what you have alluded that operators should be doing. It's comparable in some respects to your suggestion of the Stagecoach 'E' services being extended beyond Sunderland City Centre to the Royal Hospital, but the difference between that and the 21 is that Brandon - Durham was not a corridor served by Go North East previously, so isn't duplicating something that the company already offers in the 'hub and spoke' model. It will be interesting how Go North East, Arriva and Durham County Council view this corridor from April 2022, and whether they view the more established service as being the route to stick with, see the benefits of the new route and the cross-city connections it offers, or would prefer a blend of both.
(29 Dec 2021, 5:50 pm)Dan The original point of discussion was regarding Go North East 'exploiting other changes to travel pattern demands etc and potentially capitalising', and your comment was that 'don't think the powers that be at GNE towers think that such things exist beyond a couple of once a day services to Whitby or Belsay.'
You added that you 'can't think of the last regular service they introduced' but all those services in my original post have been introduced. To the users of these services, they're new services.
To the people in Brandon, Meadowfield and Langley Moor, they have a new bus route which takes them directly to New College Durham and the Arnison Centre. Yes, that bus route may have existed in the late 80s in another format, but it hasn't for a very long time (I assume you're not referring to the most recent incarnation of the X46 which was basically the bus running in service between Crook and Durham rather than out of service). In some respects it's disappointing that you don't view them as such, but I'm glad you see them as positives.
The 21 is a prime example of a service being extended and diverted to offer a vast number of new connections to places previously not served - exactly what you have alluded that operators should be doing. It's comparable in some respects to your suggestion of the Stagecoach 'E' services being extended beyond Sunderland City Centre to the Royal Hospital, but the difference between that and the 21 is that Brandon - Durham was not a corridor served by Go North East previously, so isn't duplicating something that the company already offers in the 'hub and spoke' model. It will be interesting how Go North East, Arriva and Durham County Council view this corridor from April 2022, and whether they view the more established service as being the route to stick with, see the benefits of the new route and the cross-city connections it offers, or would prefer a blend of both.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:48 pm)Adrian You should have a look through the BSIP plan in full, because the proposed Superbus routes (Red and Green) are included in the document. I use the term routes and not services, because it's illustrated as point to point between two places, not as GNE 1 or SNE 22 for example. See Page 99.
Doesn't look like the GNE 1 or SNE 22 in their current forms will be a Superbus route, as there's nothing between Wallsend and North Shields. There doesn't need to be either, as the Metro exists. North Shields to Whitley Bay and to Blyth are a Green route, so the proposal is a 10 minute daytime frequency along there.
I don't even think it's about BSIP being implemented or marked correctly at this stage. It's how much of the £804 million is going to be on offer, because around 40% of what was being asked for is revenue support "to subsidise the continuation of existing services in light of Covid-related financial shortfalls" and revenue support "to support the introduction of lower fares and expanded route networks."
There's no published plan B, so it remains to be seen what can be done with the minimal amount of funding that we're likely to receive. We'll be lucky if we get 20% of what we've put in for.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:48 pm)Adrian You should have a look through the BSIP plan in full, because the proposed Superbus routes (Red and Green) are included in the document. I use the term routes and not services, because it's illustrated as point to point between two places, not as GNE 1 or SNE 22 for example. See Page 99.
Doesn't look like the GNE 1 or SNE 22 in their current forms will be a Superbus route, as there's nothing between Wallsend and North Shields. There doesn't need to be either, as the Metro exists. North Shields to Whitley Bay and to Blyth are a Green route, so the proposal is a 10 minute daytime frequency along there.
I don't even think it's about BSIP being implemented or marked correctly at this stage. It's how much of the £804 million is going to be on offer, because around 40% of what was being asked for is revenue support "to subsidise the continuation of existing services in light of Covid-related financial shortfalls" and revenue support "to support the introduction of lower fares and expanded route networks."
There's no published plan B, so it remains to be seen what can be done with the minimal amount of funding that we're likely to receive. We'll be lucky if we get 20% of what we've put in for.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Dan To be fair under an Enhanced Partnership, there’s work that the operators can be doing with or without a BSIP.Any chance you can give me and others a run down of what GNE have asked for?
Rationalising corridors with competition, coordinating frequencies and having joint ticketing arrangements is what is right for the customer, and, ultimately, what is right for the operator. The days of competition are gone, now. Collaborative working and partnership is the new age of deregulation.
The BSIP remains fictitious at this stage and it’ll be interesting to see how the money, should any be received, is divvied out. Is it more important for example to maintain services, if operators cannot continue running them because it is unsustainable in a post-Covid world, or is it better to use that money to provide increased frequencies on ‘super bus’ corridors? It’s interesting to note that frequency is no longer king, according to a recent passenger survey.
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(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Dan To be fair under an Enhanced Partnership, there’s work that the operators can be doing with or without a BSIP.Any chance you can give me and others a run down of what GNE have asked for?
Rationalising corridors with competition, coordinating frequencies and having joint ticketing arrangements is what is right for the customer, and, ultimately, what is right for the operator. The days of competition are gone, now. Collaborative working and partnership is the new age of deregulation.
The BSIP remains fictitious at this stage and it’ll be interesting to see how the money, should any be received, is divvied out. Is it more important for example to maintain services, if operators cannot continue running them because it is unsustainable in a post-Covid world, or is it better to use that money to provide increased frequencies on ‘super bus’ corridors? It’s interesting to note that frequency is no longer king, according to a recent passenger survey.
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(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Andreos1 West of the Arnison towards Lanchester and beyond, is prime for connection or a diversion of an X5 or X15.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Andreos1 West of the Arnison towards Lanchester and beyond, is prime for connection or a diversion of an X5 or X15.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Michael When do we find out if they got any funding?
PDF here for anyone who wants it: https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp..._FINAL.pdf
(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Michael When do we find out if they got any funding?
PDF here for anyone who wants it: https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/wp..._FINAL.pdf
(29 Dec 2021, 9:20 pm)omnicity4659 I'll be raising this within Northumberland County Council and Arriva. The lack of clarity on what day tickets were being sold is a huge red flag and I think the relevant organisations need to investigate what went wrong.
GNE doesn't run any services on the line of route of the X10, and Arriva's adult fares undercut GNE's where routes are shared. That's also a fact.
(29 Dec 2021, 9:24 pm)Adrian Not entirely sure, but the plans need to be in place by the end of March 2022, according to the guidance that was issued to operators and transport authorities. I am not sure you can have a plan in place, if you don't know how much money is in the kitty.
(29 Dec 2021, 9:20 pm)omnicity4659 I'll be raising this within Northumberland County Council and Arriva. The lack of clarity on what day tickets were being sold is a huge red flag and I think the relevant organisations need to investigate what went wrong.
GNE doesn't run any services on the line of route of the X10, and Arriva's adult fares undercut GNE's where routes are shared. That's also a fact.
(29 Dec 2021, 9:24 pm)Adrian Not entirely sure, but the plans need to be in place by the end of March 2022, according to the guidance that was issued to operators and transport authorities. I am not sure you can have a plan in place, if you don't know how much money is in the kitty.
(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Dan To be fair under an Enhanced Partnership, there’s work that the operators can be doing with or without a BSIP.
Rationalising corridors with competition, coordinating frequencies and having joint ticketing arrangements is what is right for the customer, and, ultimately, what is right for the operator. The days of competition are gone, now. Collaborative working and partnership is the new age of deregulation.
The BSIP remains fictitious at this stage and it’ll be interesting to see how the money, should any be received, is divvied out. Is it more important for example to maintain services, if operators cannot continue running them because it is unsustainable in a post-Covid world, or is it better to use that money to provide increased frequencies on ‘super bus’ corridors? It’s interesting to note that frequency is no longer king, according to a recent passenger survey.
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(29 Dec 2021, 8:54 pm)Dan To be fair under an Enhanced Partnership, there’s work that the operators can be doing with or without a BSIP.
Rationalising corridors with competition, coordinating frequencies and having joint ticketing arrangements is what is right for the customer, and, ultimately, what is right for the operator. The days of competition are gone, now. Collaborative working and partnership is the new age of deregulation.
The BSIP remains fictitious at this stage and it’ll be interesting to see how the money, should any be received, is divvied out. Is it more important for example to maintain services, if operators cannot continue running them because it is unsustainable in a post-Covid world, or is it better to use that money to provide increased frequencies on ‘super bus’ corridors? It’s interesting to note that frequency is no longer king, according to a recent passenger survey.
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Not sure if this fits here, but had a scroll and can't see anywhere else it may fit.
I used the £1 fare for the first time since they introduced the new tap and pay feature and its great. I didn't have to speak to speak to the driver and it only took a few seconds.
The only downside is you don't seem to get a receipt, maybe that's still an option if you ask for the £1 fare and they put it through manually?
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(29 Dec 2021, 3:20 pm)Dan In a similar vein to the 21/49, I would like to think that a future development opportunity could be to run a bus every 10 mins combined between the 6 and X21 (each every 20). This would offer a much more attractive customer proposition than a 6 every 12(?) mins and X21 every 30.The frequency of the 6 to the X21 used to make it a winner, much of the time, at 5:2 but now it's 3:2, the 6 is less tempting, particularly for me, now that the frequency of the 64 that connects me with the 6 has been halved. These days, if I need to make a trip to Spenny, I just give Husband a ring to pick me up if I've recently missed the X21 home.
Based on your anedoctal experiences, it's likely fare-paying passengers are choosing to use the X21 because it's cheaper, and ENCTS users are using the 6 because it's the first bus that turns up and the one they're more accustomed to using.
Go North East ran services 308 and X10 to Blyth on Boxing Day, and I have heard a number of comments about how passengers tried to buy the £4 North Tyne day ticket (valid on GNE's 309) and were taken aback when they were told it costs £8.50 on Arriva's service.
(29 Dec 2021, 3:20 pm)Dan In a similar vein to the 21/49, I would like to think that a future development opportunity could be to run a bus every 10 mins combined between the 6 and X21 (each every 20). This would offer a much more attractive customer proposition than a 6 every 12(?) mins and X21 every 30.The frequency of the 6 to the X21 used to make it a winner, much of the time, at 5:2 but now it's 3:2, the 6 is less tempting, particularly for me, now that the frequency of the 64 that connects me with the 6 has been halved. These days, if I need to make a trip to Spenny, I just give Husband a ring to pick me up if I've recently missed the X21 home.
Based on your anedoctal experiences, it's likely fare-paying passengers are choosing to use the X21 because it's cheaper, and ENCTS users are using the 6 because it's the first bus that turns up and the one they're more accustomed to using.
Go North East ran services 308 and X10 to Blyth on Boxing Day, and I have heard a number of comments about how passengers tried to buy the £4 North Tyne day ticket (valid on GNE's 309) and were taken aback when they were told it costs £8.50 on Arriva's service.
(30 Dec 2021, 9:59 pm)streetdeckfan Not sure if this fits here, but had a scroll and can't see anywhere else it may fit.
I used the £1 fare for the first time since they introduced the new tap and pay feature and its great. I didn't have to speak to speak to the driver and it only took a few seconds.
The only downside is you don't seem to get a receipt, maybe that's still an option if you ask for the £1 fare and they put it through manually?
Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk
(30 Dec 2021, 9:59 pm)streetdeckfan Not sure if this fits here, but had a scroll and can't see anywhere else it may fit.
I used the £1 fare for the first time since they introduced the new tap and pay feature and its great. I didn't have to speak to speak to the driver and it only took a few seconds.
The only downside is you don't seem to get a receipt, maybe that's still an option if you ask for the £1 fare and they put it through manually?
Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk
If more Euro 6 Streetlites become available, I'd suggest extending the 1 to Blyth. Would open up a full link all the way down the coast from North Shields / Tynemouth to Blyth.
It could even be timed to coordinate with the 309 up to every 10 minutes. Maybe operate via Ridley Park instead of South Beach.
Only issue I could foresee would be a route number clash with Arriva's 1 to Ashington & Widdrington? Maybe re-introduce the 301 service number?
(13 Jan 2022, 9:58 pm)L469 YVK If more Euro 6 Streetlites become available, I'd suggest extending the 1 to Blyth. Would open up a full link all the way down the coast from North Shields / Tynemouth to Blyth.
It could even be timed to coordinate with the 309 up to every 10 minutes. Maybe operate via Ridley Park instead of South Beach.
Only issue I could foresee would be a route number clash with Arriva's 1 to Ashington & Widdrington? Maybe re-introduce the 301 service number?
(13 Jan 2022, 9:58 pm)L469 YVK If more Euro 6 Streetlites become available, I'd suggest extending the 1 to Blyth. Would open up a full link all the way down the coast from North Shields / Tynemouth to Blyth.
It could even be timed to coordinate with the 309 up to every 10 minutes. Maybe operate via Ridley Park instead of South Beach.
Only issue I could foresee would be a route number clash with Arriva's 1 to Ashington & Widdrington? Maybe re-introduce the 301 service number?
(13 Jan 2022, 9:58 pm)L469 YVK If more Euro 6 Streetlites become available, I'd suggest extending the 1 to Blyth. Would open up a full link all the way down the coast from North Shields / Tynemouth to Blyth.
It could even be timed to coordinate with the 309 up to every 10 minutes. Maybe operate via Ridley Park instead of South Beach.
Only issue I could foresee would be a route number clash with Arriva's 1 to Ashington & Widdrington? Maybe re-introduce the 301 service number?
(13 Jan 2022, 9:58 pm)L469 YVK If more Euro 6 Streetlites become available, I'd suggest extending the 1 to Blyth. Would open up a full link all the way down the coast from North Shields / Tynemouth to Blyth.
It could even be timed to coordinate with the 309 up to every 10 minutes. Maybe operate via Ridley Park instead of South Beach.
Only issue I could foresee would be a route number clash with Arriva's 1 to Ashington & Widdrington? Maybe re-introduce the 301 service number?
(13 Jan 2022, 10:29 pm)Thomas12 Why would they extend the 1 to Blyth? The numbers on the 309 are hardly ground-breaking to start with. If anything, I would suggest reducing the frequency of the 309.
(13 Jan 2022, 10:29 pm)Thomas12 Why would they extend the 1 to Blyth? The numbers on the 309 are hardly ground-breaking to start with. If anything, I would suggest reducing the frequency of the 309.
(13 Jan 2022, 10:29 pm)Thomas12 Why would they extend the 1 to Blyth? The numbers on the 309 are hardly ground-breaking to start with. If anything, I would suggest reducing the frequency of the 309.
(13 Jan 2022, 10:29 pm)Thomas12 Why would they extend the 1 to Blyth? The numbers on the 309 are hardly ground-breaking to start with. If anything, I would suggest reducing the frequency of the 309.
Could the 1 terminate in Newcastle, and be curtailed at North Shields? Renumbered 301. Maybe it could be coordinated with the 22 between Newcastle and Wallsend?
(13 Jan 2022, 10:36 pm)OrangeArrow49 Has the 309/310 ever had decent passenger numbers? There isn't much in Whitley Bay, North Shields or Blyth and not even too much at the Cobalt (but a lot of employment there, pre-covid). Could anything be done to boost numbers? X39 full route? Maybe X36, X38 and X39 instead of 306, 308 and 309 for quicker journey times?
(13 Jan 2022, 11:39 pm)OrangeArrow49 Could the 1 terminate in Newcastle, and be curtailed at North Shields? Renumbered 301. Maybe it could be coordinated with the 22 between Newcastle and Wallsend?
(13 Jan 2022, 10:36 pm)OrangeArrow49 Has the 309/310 ever had decent passenger numbers? There isn't much in Whitley Bay, North Shields or Blyth and not even too much at the Cobalt (but a lot of employment there, pre-covid). Could anything be done to boost numbers? X39 full route? Maybe X36, X38 and X39 instead of 306, 308 and 309 for quicker journey times?
(13 Jan 2022, 11:39 pm)OrangeArrow49 Could the 1 terminate in Newcastle, and be curtailed at North Shields? Renumbered 301. Maybe it could be coordinated with the 22 between Newcastle and Wallsend?