I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts why GNE has downgraded the 35 (now the Prince Bishops 20) over the years?

To me it was a flagship route which stood out against the competition from Stagecoach’s E1 E2 and E6.

I used to commute from South Shields to Sunderland everyday on the 35 and it was every 10 minutes, branded as the cross city Laser for commuters, and was marketed as a “Gold Standard” route using Citaros.

GNE replaced the Citaros with some Wrightbus horrors, ditched the Gold Standard service and then replaced the Laser 35 completely with the Prince Bishops 20. The frequency was decreased to every 15 minutes. 

To me it seems nonsensical. It annoyed me as an existing customer and the downgrades certainly wouldn’t attract new people to use the bus. Is there some logic that is escaping me?

(20 May 2022, 11:05 am)balise33 wrote I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts why GNE has downgraded the 35 (now the Prince Bishops 20) over the years?

To me it was a flagship route which stood out against the competition from Stagecoach’s E1 E2 and E6.

I used to commute from South Shields to Sunderland everyday on the 35 and it was every 10 minutes, branded as the cross city Laser for commuters, and was marketed as a “Gold Standard” route using Citaros.

GNE replaced the Citaros with some Wrightbus horrors, ditched the Gold Standard service and then replaced the Laser 35 completely with the Prince Bishops 20. The frequency was decreased to every 15 minutes. 

To me it seems nonsensical. It annoyed me as an existing customer and the downgrades certainly wouldn’t attract new people to use the bus. Is there some logic that is escaping me?

If your vehicles mean they cost too much for the amount of revenue coming in then changes are usually needed. The nature of what those changes are or should be are up for debate.

(20 May 2022, 11:05 am)balise33 wrote I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts why GNE has downgraded the 35 (now the Prince Bishops 20) over the years?

To me it was a flagship route which stood out against the competition from Stagecoach’s E1 E2 and E6.

I used to commute from South Shields to Sunderland everyday on the 35 and it was every 10 minutes, branded as the cross city Laser for commuters, and was marketed as a “Gold Standard” route using Citaros.

GNE replaced the Citaros with some Wrightbus horrors, ditched the Gold Standard service and then replaced the Laser 35 completely with the Prince Bishops 20. The frequency was decreased to every 15 minutes. 

To me it seems nonsensical. It annoyed me as an existing customer and the downgrades certainly wouldn’t attract new people to use the bus. Is there some logic that is escaping me?

The 35 had mixed allocation of citaro and L94

(20 May 2022, 11:05 am)balise33 wrote I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts why GNE has downgraded the 35 (now the Prince Bishops 20) over the years?

To me it was a flagship route which stood out against the competition from Stagecoach’s E1 E2 and E6.

I used to commute from South Shields to Sunderland everyday on the 35 and it was every 10 minutes, branded as the cross city Laser for commuters, and was marketed as a “Gold Standard” route using Citaros.

GNE replaced the Citaros with some Wrightbus horrors, ditched the Gold Standard service and then replaced the Laser 35 completely with the Prince Bishops 20. The frequency was decreased to every 15 minutes. 

To me it seems nonsensical. It annoyed me as an existing customer and the downgrades certainly wouldn’t attract new people to use the bus. Is there some logic that is escaping me?

I'm sure there will have been some logic in downgrading it and never being able to make it work since. What that was, I'll never know. Not sure many others will either.

They're now proposing even further changes to the 35.


I appreciate they're at the whims of vehicles, PVR's and balance sheets. But there must have been a better way? Surely?

I agree the 35 has been trashed beyond recognition, mainly because of the insistence over a lot of years to extend the 20 to Shields, but was it ever a flagship route?

I can't remember exactly what routes had the 'Gold Standard', but I'm pretty sure the 2/2A and 53/54 were part of it.

(20 May 2022, 11:05 am)balise33 wrote I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts why GNE has downgraded the 35 (now the Prince Bishops 20) over the years?

To me it was a flagship route which stood out against the competition from Stagecoach’s E1 E2 and E6.

I used to commute from South Shields to Sunderland everyday on the 35 and it was every 10 minutes, branded as the cross city Laser for commuters, and was marketed as a “Gold Standard” route using Citaros.

GNE replaced the Citaros with some Wrightbus horrors, ditched the Gold Standard service and then replaced the Laser 35 completely with the Prince Bishops 20. The frequency was decreased to every 15 minutes. 

To me it seems nonsensical. It annoyed me as an existing customer and the downgrades certainly wouldn’t attract new people to use the bus. Is there some logic that is escaping me?

You picked the side of the route that done well really. The other side of the route is now every 30 minutes using the same Merc's or a similar batch that was took off them 10 years earlier.

The Herrington's must be the corridor which has had by far the worst service reduction anywhere in the North East.

(20 May 2022, 6:44 pm)Adrian wrote I agree the 35 has been trashed beyond recognition, mainly because of the insistence over a lot of years to extend the 20 to Shields, but was it ever a flagship route?

I can't remember exactly what routes had the 'Gold Standard', but I'm pretty sure the 2/2A and 53/54 were part of it.

The 60 was when it was Versas

(20 May 2022, 8:06 pm)F114TML wrote The 60 was when it was Versas

Those Versa's are anything but gold standard.

They are awful inside, the sides (where the windows are) are stained a awful yellow.

---

The 35 has just been totally destroyed, chopped and changed.

Tbh the whole route needs some re-imaging.

---

Also as far as Flagship Routes go, I would say 56,60,20 are the only ones at Deptford.

(20 May 2022, 8:31 pm)Unber43 wrote Those Vera's are anything but gold standard.

I agree. It's a good drama, but I much preferred The Bill.

(20 May 2022, 8:58 pm)Adrian wrote I agree. It's a good drama, but I much preferred The Bill.

 Edit's done now. I must have changed it from Versas to Vera 

(20 May 2022, 6:44 pm)Adrian wrote I agree the 35 has been trashed beyond recognition, mainly because of the insistence over a lot of years to extend the 20 to Shields, but was it ever a flagship route?

I can't remember exactly what routes had the 'Gold Standard', but I'm pretty sure the 2/2A and 53/54 were part of it.

And the 58 too

(20 May 2022, 9:16 pm)V514DFT wrote And the 58 too

Hows the 58 changed over the years the only thing I can rember is Hadrians Park Extension although that might have been the 57

(20 May 2022, 8:31 pm)Unber43 wrote Those Versa's are anything but gold standard.

They are awful inside, the sides (where the windows are) are stained a awful yellow.

---

The 35 has just been totally destroyed, chopped and changed.

Tbh the whole route needs some re-imaging.

---

Also as far as Flagship Routes go, I would say 56,60,20 are the only ones at Deptford.

Yeah, I'll have to agree that the Versas are probably the least favourable vehicles currently in the GNE fleet. Probably tied with the older Omnidekkas (the 03/04 batches), but the majority of them have been withdrawn/left the fleet anyway.

But at least they're not as bad as the Lolynes were. I swear the seats were literally at a 90 degree angle on those.

Add the X84/X85 to the list, going from new X-lines branded Enviros to older Versas in corporate livery within a year of being introduced.


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Tbf irregardless of branding GNE have been making fairly awful fleet decisions for years , it’s amazing the same team is still in place

(20 May 2022, 10:24 pm)Ambassador wrote Tbf irregardless of branding GNE have been making fairly awful fleet decisions for years , it’s amazing the same team is still in place

Too busy back patting to notice?

(20 May 2022, 10:24 pm)Ambassador wrote Tbf irregardless of branding GNE have been making fairly awful fleet decisions for years , it’s amazing the same team is still in place

Hopefully the 7x StreetDecks (assuming all of the Consett 'X-Lines' routes will be E400MMC operated) will actually be put to good use.

If they were do to something daft, my prediction would be them ending up on the 47 or a split between the X5/X15 and random spares at Washington.

Sensible option would be 6362 & 6363 to Washington for the X1 forming the PVR of 14x alongside 6364-75. 6376 spare with 6333 as another spare too.

Then for the following:
- X21 - 6331, 6332, 6356-61, 6377
- 47 - 6308-13
- X5/X15 - 6045-48
- CON Spares (Euro 6) - 6064, 6350, 6351
- CLS Spares (Euro 6) - 6314, 6333, 6334
- Riverside (extra spare & 1x extra for 58) - 6043, 6044

(20 May 2022, 10:24 pm)Ambassador wrote Tbf irregardless of branding GNE have been making fairly awful fleet decisions for years , it’s amazing the same team is still in place

Tbf the team is probably extremely limited numbers now in the low single digits who likely do support aswell. When they're butchering the frontline services I can't imagine them having a team of 20 people sitting in an office offering nothing.

There's a definite noticeable decrease in support staff.

(21 May 2022, 7:24 am)Storx wrote Tbf the team is probably extremely limited numbers now in the low single digits who likely do support aswell. When they're butchering the frontline services I can't imagine them having a team of 20 people sitting in an office offering nothing.

There's a definite noticeable decrease in support staff.

I think if people knew how few people most bigger operators employ for back office functions they'd be surprised to be honest.

(20 May 2022, 9:18 pm)Unber43 wrote Hows the 58 changed over the years the only thing I can rember is Hadrians Park Extension although that might have been the 57

Was answering the question of what else was a 'Gold Standard' service

(21 May 2022, 7:07 am)L469 YVK wrote Hopefully the 7x StreetDecks (assuming all of the Consett 'X-Lines' routes will be E400MMC operated) will actually be put to good use.

If they were do to something daft, my prediction would be them ending up on the 47 or a split between the X5/X15 and random spares at Washington.

Sensible option would be 6362 & 6363 to Washington for the X1 forming the PVR of 14x alongside 6364-75. 6376 spare with 6333 as another spare too.

Then for the following:
- X21 - 6331, 6332, 6356-61, 6377
- 47 - 6308-13
- X5/X15 - 6045-48
- CON Spares (Euro 6) - 6064, 6350, 6351
- CLS Spares (Euro 6) - 6314, 6333, 6334

Why re-brand a already branded route (47/X5/X15 have already been re-branded twice in the past 2 years)

Maybe start some new routes...from Sunderland or Durham. Although I would put more 2x Streetdecks on X21 just for the PVR

(21 May 2022, 10:03 am)Unber43 wrote Why re-brand a already branded route (47/X5/X15 have already been re-branded twice in the past 2 years)

Maybe start some new routes...from Sunderland or Durham. Although I would put more 2x Streetdecks on X21 just for the PVR

Volvo B9TLs on the X5/X15 would allow 6x B5LH to be withdrawn leaving 8x for the 16/16A + 1x spare.

Also, StreetDecks (a mix of G1 16 plates, G2 67 plates and new G3s) were originally planned for the X21 pre covid. E400MMCs would be ideal on the X21 but given the need for flexibility at Consett for any low height interworking patterns particularly early morning, evenings and Sundays and as well as the fact that the G2 & G3 StreetDecks have been fairly good as a whole, StreetDecks would be the best option for the X21.

And no disrespect but although the 47 it's a popular route, it doesn't warrant such high spec vehicles such as 6356-61. Given their early history on the X9/X10 and their age, 6308-13 would be ideal on the 47 also given the fact that Riverside are familiar with the vehicle type should any breakdowns happen at the Metrocentre or Newcastle end of the route.

(21 May 2022, 11:22 am)L469 YVK wrote Volvo B9TLs on the X5/X15 would allow 6x B5LH to be withdrawn leaving 8x for the 16/16A + 1x spare.

Also, StreetDecks (a mix of G1 16 plates, G2 67 plates and new G3s) were originally planned for the X21 pre covid. E400MMCs would be ideal on the X21 but given the need for flexibility at Consett for any low height interworking patterns particularly early morning, evenings and Sundays and as well as the fact that the G2 & G3 StreetDecks have been fairly good as a whole, StreetDecks would be the best option for the X21.

And no disrespect but although the 47 it's a popular route, it doesn't warrant such high spec vehicles such as 6356-61. Given their early history on the X9/X10 and their age, 6308-13 would be ideal on the 47 also given the fact that Riverside are familiar with the vehicle type should any breakdowns happen at the Metrocentre or Newcastle end of the route.

Why on earth would you withdrawn just 10 year old vehicles. Send them to Deptford for X20 or something. 

Leave the 47/X5/X15/16/16A Alone Don't Touch it. They've been done like this year. 

X21 could send 3 Streetdecks down. But maybe when de-branding spares, maybe spend it on some new routes.

I wish the E400 MMC USB were more reliable does anyone know if the drivers have to turn them on?

(21 May 2022, 12:07 pm)Unber43 wrote Why on earth would you withdrawn just 10 year old vehicles. Send them to Deptford for X20 or something. 

Leave the 47/X5/X15/16/16A Alone Don't Touch it. They've been done like this year. 

X21 could send 3 Streetdecks down. But maybe when de-branding spares, maybe spend it on some new routes.

I wish the E400 MMC USB were more reliable does anyone know if the drivers have to turn them on?

- Non standard type with difficult upkeep. Withdrawn ones could also make spares for the remaining 9.

- No mention of 16/16A, they'd remain unchanged. Volvo B5TLs on the 47 would be a decent upgrade over the B9TLs from a customer perspective, bringing it closer to the X45 standards but still keeping that spec difference to make the X45  stand out. Likewise, the B9TLs on there have been ragged to death on the X9/X10 and the Tyne Valley Ten. The X5/X15 would be easier lines of work for these not forgetting that Riverside will also need an extra 2x for spares and the PVR increase of the 58.

- Other than 6362 & 63 making up the PVR of the X1, why would GNE want 6x nearly new StreetDecks sitting in mostly 'spare' roles or working low key / secondary routes? 6356-61 alongside 6377 and 6331/32 would be a welcome change on the X21.

(21 May 2022, 12:30 pm)L469 YVK wrote - Non standard type with difficult upkeep. Withdrawn ones could also make spares for the remaining 9.

- No mention of 16/16A, they'd remain unchanged. Volvo B5TLs on the 47 would be a decent upgrade over the B9TLs from a customer perspective, bringing it closer to the X45 standards but still keeping that spec difference to make the X45  stand out. Likewise, the B9TLs on there have been ragged to death on the X9/X10 and the Tyne Valley Ten. The X5/X15 would be easier lines of work for these not forgetting that Riverside will also need an extra 2x for spares and the PVR increase of the 58.

- Other than 6362 & 63 making up the PVR, why would GNE want 6x nearly new StreetDecks sitting in 'spare' roles or working low key and secondary routes? 6356-61 alongside 6377 and 6331/32 would be a welcome change on the X21.

Maybe try some brand new routes. They might aswell. Newcastle - Sunderland, Blyth to Newcastle V Follingsby.

But that would mean re-branding buses a ridiculous amount of times, which cost money. I would rather B5's over B9's however it costs thousands to repaint.

(21 May 2022, 12:30 pm)L469 YVK wrote - Non standard type with difficult upkeep. Withdrawn ones could also make spares for the remaining 9.

- No mention of 16/16A, they'd remain unchanged. Volvo B5TLs on the 47 would be a decent upgrade over the B9TLs from a customer perspective, bringing it closer to the X45 standards but still keeping that spec difference to make the X45  stand out. Likewise, the B9TLs on there have been ragged to death on the X9/X10 and the Tyne Valley Ten. The X5/X15 would be easier lines of work for these not forgetting that Riverside will also need an extra 2x for spares and the PVR increase of the 58.

- Other than 6362 & 63 making up the PVR of the X1, why would GNE want 6x nearly new StreetDecks sitting in mostly 'spare' roles or working low key / secondary routes? 6356-61 alongside 6377 and 6331/32 would be a welcome change on the X21.

There's no chance any of those B5's are gonna get withdrawn at 10 years old, they're nowhere near the age of being 'uneconomical to repair.' 

Hasn't it already been established that the reliability of the B5's on the X21 isn't as bad as has been made out...6332/33 being allocated to Chester-le-Street so there are decent spares would be sufficient I'm sure. 

I think it could go either way at Consett. I think 6362/3 will go to Washington for the X1 like you say. As for 6356-6361, the paint is still fresh on those 47/47A B9's, doesn't mean it won't happen tho. Part of me does wonder if the new 24 could be a contender with a PVR of 5. Alternatively if 6356-61 stay for the X45, some of the MMC's could be released to Riverside for something like the 58.

(21 May 2022, 12:33 pm)Unber43 wrote Maybe try some brand new routes. They might aswell. Newcastle - Sunderland, Blyth to Newcastle V Follingsby.

But that would mean re-branding buses a ridiculous amount of times, which cost money. I would rather B5's over B9's however it costs thousands to repaint.

I can't see GNE taking the commercial risk of a new route when they can hardly run the routes they do have!

(21 May 2022, 1:07 pm)peter wrote There's no chance any of those B5's are gonna get withdrawn at 10 years old, they're nowhere near the age of being 'uneconomical to repair.' 

Hasn't it already been established that the reliability of the B5's on the X21 isn't as bad as has been made out...6332/33 being allocated to Chester-le-Street so there are decent spares would be sufficient I'm sure. 

I think it could go either way at Consett. I think 6362/3 will go to Washington for the X1 like you say. As for 6356-6361, the paint is still fresh on those 47/47A B9's, doesn't mean it won't happen tho. Part of me does wonder if the new 24 could be a contender with a PVR of 5. Alternatively if 6356-61 stay for the X45, some of the MMC's could be released to Riverside for something like the 58.

But given the very high high spec of 6356-61, would you say the 47 or the X21 is more deserving?

(21 May 2022, 1:07 pm)peter wrote There's no chance any of those B5's are gonna get withdrawn at 10 years old, they're nowhere near the age of being 'uneconomical to repair.' 

Hasn't it already been established that the reliability of the B5's on the X21 isn't as bad as has been made out...6332/33 being allocated to Chester-le-Street so there are decent spares would be sufficient I'm sure. 

I think it could go either way at Consett. I think 6362/3 will go to Washington for the X1 like you say. As for 6356-6361, the paint is still fresh on those 47/47A B9's, doesn't mean it won't happen tho. Part of me does wonder if the new 24 could be a contender with a PVR of 5. Alternatively if 6356-61 stay for the X45, some of the MMC's could be released to Riverside for something like the 58.


I can't see GNE taking the commercial risk of a new route when they can hardly run the routes they do have!

the 58 carries fresh air most of the time, so does the loop the most i have seen on them out of peak hours is about 10-15. 

It paid of with the 65 (well mostly). They might aswell take a commerical risk....they'll need work for the drivers.

(21 May 2022, 1:12 pm)L469 YVK wrote But given the very high high spec of 6356-61, would you say the 47 or the X21 is more deserving?

How much more high spec are 20 plate Streetdecks compared to 17 plate B5's? Not sure it's worth the repainting of all those buses. And in any case you're still left with the same issue of not enough for the PVR. The 47/47A previously used those same Streetdecks and if they're covering part of the X46 route I'd hardly say they're that much less deserving. 

(21 May 2022, 1:13 pm)Unber43 wrote the 58 carries fresh air most of the time, so does the loop the most i have seen on them out of peak hours is about 10-15. 

It paid of with the 65 (well mostly). They might aswell take a commerical risk....they'll need work for the drivers.

The 58 was just an example tbh, there's probably other worthy routes at Riverside. The 65 was not a new service though? It was just the old 265 increased in frequency to replace other services on common corridors. Hmm, GNE are currently suffering driver shortages...remove some routes oh suddenly no more driver shortage, so I don't think that's going to be an issue.

(21 May 2022, 1:24 pm)peter wrote How much more high spec are 20 plate Streetdecks compared to 17 plate B5's? Not sure it's worth the repainting of all those buses. And in any case you're still left with the same issue of not enough for the PVR. The 47/47A previously used those same Streetdecks and if they're covering part of the X46 route I'd hardly say they're that much less deserving. 


The 58 was just an example tbh, there's probably other worthy routes at Riverside. The 65 was not a new service though? It was just the old 265 increased in frequency to replace other services on common corridors. Hmm, GNE are currently suffering driver shortages...remove some routes oh suddenly no more driver shortage, so I don't think that's going to be an issue.

The only worthy route I can think of the Tyne Valley Ten there just wouldn't be enough.

I would say the 65 numbers are much higher than the old 265. 65 is always busy when i see it. 

I mean cancelling 28/25/62/62A/28A/X70/1 X31/4 going to every 15. Strangly enough GNE might have a few drivers free.