All buses in corporate livery with the odd brand - strong corporate identity.

Pay drivers a decent pay (conditions also) rather than constantly spend money on recruitment and actually engage with driving staff.

Multi operator/multi mode ticketing at a price which isn't over inflated - that way when a bus is cancelled you can use your ticket on another operators service (not GNE specific).

Simplify tickets and prices.

Based on current circumstances, emergency timetables.

Replace management and network design teams as they currently don't seem to be working (many cuts). Input from drivers and routes developed at a local depot level rather than a head office approach.

For branding, what routes should be branded, for me its either you go all in or not, if you do branding it hast to be for basically all services.

All services should be branded, with only spare buses corporately branded however there must be a "checklist" for a route being branded. e.g

- The route/contract will not change dramatically within the next 1-2 years and has been proven to be successful for the past 12 months

The biggest thing that needs resolving today from a passengers point of view is the seemingly endless cancellations and breakdowns. The services GNE run are now so unreliable on some routes it is simply not possible to use any service with any confidence. Gladly I've moved out of the area now so my sanity has returned after using (well trying to) the 47 from Highfield which became so unreliable it left gaps of up to 90 minutes and will now likely leave gaps of 2 hours when the inevitable breakdowns on Sundays with the now hourly service. Thus having to get any bus to Rowlands Gill and walking a mile or so or having to get a bus an hour or so earlier than needed just to try to get there on time-ish. No thanks. There is no viable alternative from Highfield for the 47 other than to walk over a mile to (try to) get a 45, why not have the circular service from years ago (old services 611/612) to give a fighting chance of something turning up at least one way. Simply extend the 10A back to Newcastle via Rowlands Gill (10A / 10C one each way round the loop ?)
The sheer number of breakdowns is shocking, the whole stop/start things needs revisiting as there's no need to stop the engine only to have it try to start 5 seconds later and maintenance needs kicking up a notch if breakdowns are so bad.
If there are not enough drivers then timetables need recast to provide a more robust service but with the amount of delays incurred on some routes meaning services are turned short of their destination mean there will still be cancellations. Newcastle and Gateshead Councils both need a bullet with the road layouts in the centre of towns and the approaches, this causes severe delays and is part of the problem no doubt, that bit I concede is not entirely in GNE control. Do they complain to the council ?
I've worked on buses for over 40 years and never ever seen such an unreliable service, this company is dying. Too many cancellations and too many breakdowns leaves the public with no confidence in this shower at all. I've made my feelings perfectly clear to them on Twitter when faced with successive cancellations. People vote with their feet and wallets, I have.

(05 Aug 2022, 8:45 am)xpm wrote Go back to pro-active rather than reactive maintenance - annual PSV shouldn't be the only time buses get real meaningful maintenance.

Stop buying parts based on the fact they're the absolute cheapest possible - replacing an ABS Sensor 3 or 4 times more often because it's a few quid cheaper is a false economy.

Absolutely. The annual PSV/MOT is the minimum standard a bus (or any other vehicle) needs to meet in order for it to be roadworthy. Failure to maintain this standard means the operator potentially risks sanctions to their operators licence if the vehicle fails either a roadside test or a depot audit by the DVSA (PG9). Buses are usually inspected on a 28 or 35 day basis, depending on operator, and of course, things can fail in the interim period; but minor problems can lead to major faults down the line and firefighting maintenance issues with temporary fixes from one inspection period to the next is not the solution. If maintained correctly, a bus should fly through its annual test without any effort. If an operator is using the annual test as a means of getting the vehicle up to the minimum standard required, then it makes you wonder how roadworthy the vehicle is at any other time.

I'd bring Sam Allardyce in as a survival specialist.

(05 Aug 2022, 6:28 pm)Adrian wrote I'd bring Sam Allardyce in as a survival specialist.

*WELP* West Brom got relegated

Wipe out the existing exec team and replace them with new:

Ambassador for Managing Director
Andreos1 for Commercial Director
Umber43 for Operations Director
MurdnunoC for Engineering Director

No Finance Director to be appointed as Andreos1 won’t want any challenge from a fellow director on commercial risks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(05 Aug 2022, 6:40 pm)Dan wrote Wipe out the existing exec team and replace them with new:

Ambassador for Managing Director
Andreos1 for Commercial Director
Umber43 for Operations Director
MurdnunoC for Engineering Director

No Finance Director to be appointed as Andreos1 won’t want any challenge from a fellow director on commercial risks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would employ you as Assistant Operations Director with a specific remit of procuring bovine-related bread-based products from independent retailers in the Sunderland area.

(05 Aug 2022, 8:01 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I would employ you as Assistant Operations Director with a specific remit of procuring bovine-related bread-based products from independent retailers in the Sunderland area.

Andreos1, in his capacity as Commercial Director, could set up new bus links to Sunderland Team Valley in order for me to do this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(05 Aug 2022, 6:28 pm)Adrian wrote I'd bring Sam Allardyce in as a survival specialist.

Certainly knows how to get the basics right, and is good with the rules of governing bodies - should help with securing more funding from Nexus.

Don't know if the fans will appreciate his approach though. I hear they want Alan Pardew given his appetite for alcoholic beverages, which they think will solidify the growing relationship with the Microbus brand. They also like his tendency to engage in completely pointless competition.

For me:

Stop buying new buses, should kept older buses since most where Euro6.
Replace Streetwrights not all with Enviro 400s convert to Euro 6 not mmcs.

Up drivers wages to match other depots in region. Bring back Gold Routes which are higher paid.

Depots should be left alone far now and if needs to close ask all staff first.

Also I do agree stop painting buses indifferent colours, one corporate repaint live Stagecoach and Arriva.

Replace merging single routes into one due to buses not keeping up with timetable and missing, which loses customers.

Bring back old single routes.

Bus fares need replacing into 2 zones Tyne and Wear and Outer Boarder's.
Bring in capped single fares.

X11 ticket where all buses in Tyne and Wear are allow to be used. But should be in Scarborough or Whitby to allow people to explore the towns and valid on East Yorkshire Buses.

Since COVID Double Decker buses nolonger required on certain routes because of passingers level drop.

Company needs to win back customers,
needs to find new revenue bring back adverts.

Should look into more Coach Trips. Day trips for families or OAPs.

(05 Aug 2022, 8:04 pm)Dan wrote Andreos1, in his capacity as Commercial Director, could set up new bus links to Sunderland Team Valley in order for me to do this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Err. No.

For the first time in weeks we got home from Newcastle to Durham without a hitch - until the driver of the 21 we were on had to announce to passengers who had been waiting at the Arnison centre for goodness know how long that sorry, he wouldn't be going to Brandon, but there was a bus 10 minutes behind that would.

Oops.

---

(05 Aug 2022, 6:40 pm)Dan wrote Wipe out the existing exec team and replace them with new:

Ambassador for Managing Director
Andreos1 for Commercial Director
Umber43 for Operations Director
MurdnunoC for Engineering Director

No Finance Director to be appointed as Andreos1 won’t want any challenge from a fellow director on commercial risks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who will be calculating the pvr and fleet lists? Surely there must be a willing candidate?

Re driver's wages - what's the general hourly rate most drivers are on after a few years (if anyone can say)? Is it still £10.50? It just says that's the rate when you qualify and a bit later it says £35k/year (pretty sure it used to say £36k/yr).

(06 Aug 2022, 6:51 am)F114TML wrote Re driver's wages - what's the general hourly rate most drivers are on after a few years (if anyone can say)? Is it still £10.50? It just says that's the rate when you qualify and a bit later it says £35k/year (pretty sure it used to say £36k/yr).

Terms and conditions generally vary by depot and respective union agreements. Standard hourly rate at the 39-hour guarantee typically falls between £11 and £12 on the top rate at most depots; the £35k figure assumes overtime will be plentiful and not opted out of. Overtime rates vary depending on if a driver is working on a weekday or a weekend. Sometimes, duties which need to be covered are split up into half shifts so they can be covered by drivers, generally after their rostered shift. There are agreements in place that drivers are paid for a minimum number of hours at overtime rate, regardless of how many hours of additional work they actually do. I recall at one point (and imagine it will still be the case), at Riverside, if a driver was to transfer in from another depot, they would go onto low-cost even if they had been on a main rota at their previous depot. Some depots have very generous union agreements which can influence exact earnings; at one in particular, if a driver finishes their shift half an hour late, they get paid for an additional three hours.

(05 Aug 2022, 6:40 pm)Dan wrote Wipe out the existing exec team and replace them with new:

Ambassador for Managing Director
Andreos1 for Commercial Director
Umber43 for Operations Director
MurdnunoC for Engineering Director

No Finance Director to be appointed as Andreos1 won’t want any challenge from a fellow director on commercial risks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Career suicide for you there young Dan (once you’ve taken micro bus pub  off all the nsa’s)

(06 Aug 2022, 8:23 am)Ambassador wrote Career suicide for you there young Dan (once you’ve taken micro bus pub  off all the nsa’s)

Ah, I’d already worked on the basis that I’d be gone under this regime. No need for a commercial team when Andreos1 could single-handedly do it all himself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(06 Aug 2022, 8:45 am)Dan wrote Ah, I’d already worked on the basis that I’d be gone under this regime. No need for a commercial team when Andreos1 could single-handedly do it all himself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Err. No. 

I appreciate that I am a highly skilled and competent individual.
However, theres no 'I' in team. So clearly, I would need to recruit a highly skilled group to complement me.

(06 Aug 2022, 10:41 am)Andreos1 wrote Err. No. 

I appreciate that I am a highly skilled and competent individual.
However, theres no 'I' in team. So clearly, I would need to recruit a highly skilled group to complement me.

I concur, I as Operations Director would have a small team who would look at areas e.g Washington/Peterlee/Sunderland areas and see what to improve them, more local links, express versions of that service etc. 

My team would not be full of people X Degree who think they know better than people in the local areas as to where to run buses, obviously people with degrees add a certain level of knowledge but that would be complemented by people from the local areas, who are constantly carrying out research to make bus routes better. 

The Bus Reform Program would not be for shareholders, but for locals, in the effort to make bus services profitable, and add passenger numbers.

---

(06 Aug 2022, 8:45 am)Dan wrote Ah, I’d already worked on the basis that I’d be gone under this regime. No need for a commercial team when Andreos1 could single-handedly do it all himself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You would be excellent as a head of driver relationship. With someone who is from each depot to reform communication between drivers and management for people to get issues raised and for it being much more friendly relationships.

There's a real danger here of looking at Go North East's challenges in a silo. Yes, there's absolutely things that they could change as a company, but at the same time, there's things that are completely outside of their control; yet impact the markets that they operate within.

The current market for bus services in England is completely broken. It has been in decline for decades, and I think that without having two years of a pandemic, we'd still be in this position by 2025. The pandemic has merely accelerated the decline.

The poor funding formulas for Concessionary Travel and for Bus Service Operators Grant, combined with car ownership being more and more affordable, even to younger people, has led to a perfect storm.

Then when local authority cash started to dry up from 2010, and value for money was the aim of the game for secured services, it removed a level of guaranteed income from the big three - who would generally still operate services that they chucked back.

Of course, the funding formulas are completely outside of any operators control, as is car ownership, but this is an operating market that the major operators created. Largely in the years post-deregulation, when they ran their businesses as if it were the Wild West.

It's a market that wants to be a public service, but with none of the responsibilities. It shows why running a public service on a commercial basis doesn't work and it cannot work, and it's why margin has always grown or been maintained at the expense of less profitable services.

Looking at some of the points raised here...

Network Development and Stability
I think the absolute priority at the moment needs to be on network development and the stability of the network, but Go North East's network is only a part of that.

Of course, Go North East have not been great for years now in the changes to their network. The debacle with the never-ending North Sunderland estate changes, or the continuing saga with Washington local services, are prime examples of what discourages people from using public transport.

Every other day that I've been on the new 84/85 since the changes, fellow customers are completely baffled by them, and can't understand why the 85 goes a completely different way than it did the week before. It's just one example, but it stinks of a change being made by someone who doesn't understand that part of the network, whether that be the case or not.

Stagecoach for example are regularly commended for their networks and the stability of them. They've very much taken a low risk approach, but at the same time, will be ruthless enough to cut anything that impacts their margin.

But for me, if we're being serious about having a public transport network that works, then it needs to be one network. Encompassing all modes of public transport.

It shouldn't be a network designed by people looking at maps in an office, but should instead be properly considered, built on the needs of residents and have a complete understanding of the markets that they serve.

The North East Transport Plan looked at what users thought of the public transport network, and found that there are four key themes that are important to residents when travelling across the region:
• Connectivity and ease of movement
• Health, wellbeing and safety
• Sustainability
• Value for money

On connectivity, the plan suggests that residents feel this is "very important to people of the North East" and that "better public transport connectivity is needed, particularly in rural areas." It also makes the sensible suggestion that "new developments and neighbourhoods could be designed so that they are less car reliant."

On value for money especially, it reports that "residents feel that public transport fares are expensive and it is perceived to be cheaper to travel by car." and that an "integrated public transport network across the region would provide better value for money."

When you read that, compared to the reality, you almost get the feeling that we're working backwards here. We've spent time, effort and money commissioning a report, consultation and drawing up a plan, then not bothering to work to it. But it comes back to funding.

Marketing and Branding
Starting with the latter first, but I'm now firmly of the belief that branding is a money pit and has no impact on growing bus use. I don't even think this is a Go North East issue, but whilst we're seeing some operators move away from it, we're still seeing GNE and others throw money at everyone's favourite design agency.

We hear a lot about Social Media influencers these days, and it doesn't matter whether it be whoever from Love Island, Geordie Shore or a member of the 10% club, it's all the same. They're promoting what they want you to believe, not what the reality is.

Xlines, despite being probably the only brand that I think has a place these days, is in decline. How many services have been cut since it's inception?

I'd personally scrap all branding* and have a clear livery that everyone understands is a public service bus, and one that they can use. The only exception to that would be for genuine express services - and it's why I think Xlines has a place.

In terms of marketing, Go North East do a hell of a lot more than most and there's some really good examples of it, e.g. Voltra, which I found effective. But maybe that's the problem? I found it effective, but I'm already engaged as a bus user. Why aren't car users finding it effective enough to make the switch?

I know that some on here believe that Go North East's Commercial Team is the root of all evil, yet at the same time possesses a magic wand to fix everything, but we really need to start looking at this more objectively rather than making indirect attacks at individuals.

IMO, marketing should be understood and ran centrally, for one unified transport network. Not the current situation of four major operators trying to tell you they're better than the other. That's just the start though, and it'd only work with having a marketing strategy that understands the reasons why people don't use buses.

Staffing
Most operators are struggling to get and retain drivers for love nor money these days, and there's a two key factors to it for me.

Renumeration - What a driver gets paid is always going to be a key factor in recruiting and retaining them. Given the responsibilities and compared to similar jobs, drivers on the most part underpaid for their work. It's also created an environment where drivers will hop around companies for 50p more an hour or whatever, which offers nothing in terms of stability. There's very little loyalty, and I don't think operators should expect it, with the watering down of pay and terms in the years following privatisation.

I do think that there's a genuine issue here though. If operators are proving unable to grow their business, then the cost of improving pay and terms has to come from cost savings, because that margin and wedge for the shareholders will always be maintained in the cut-throat world of capitalism. Is it unique to GNE? No. Is it going to change in the current operating market? Unlikely. So it comes back to the model being broken and the need for properly funded public transport.

Working conditions - These are well within Go North East's control, and there's always improvements that can be made. Most of these again aren't unique to GNE, but for example, how many times have we heard of the blame culture in the bus industry, or how poor the shifts and hours are?

As DeltaMan has said above, chopping and changing shifts every few weeks 100% contributes to drivers leaving, so why aren't we doing something about it? Why don't operators consult with their drivers on working patterns and shifts, and come up with something that works for both.

Customer Service and Social Media
Most operators, including Go North East, have cut down to an extremely limited customer services offering. An inability to contact all three major operators, during their operating hours, is problematic and not customer friendly in the slightest. GNE and Stagecoach, to their credit, have still kept local teams to perform this role close to their networks, whereas others have centralised as a cost-saving exercise. This could still be vastly improved, and ensuring that key bus stations are staffed is a must for me.

I agree with Ambassador's comments on Social Media, but again, I don't think GNE are alone here. Most bus operators that I see have absolutely dire platforms on Social Media, but that's not necessarily a training issue. Many companies will set standards on how they want their social platforms ran. LNER, for example, are quite laid back and engaging with customers. I think we can also learn lessons from the way the RMT have ran their social media during their rail dispute.

Whilst there's improvements to be made in both areas, do we think it has a massive influence on people using services? I'd personally suggest not.

In closing, I think there's a lot of points to consider, but at the same time need to acknowledge it's not solely a Go North East issue. GNE have jumped first on a lot of things, but it's just highlighting how broken the market is and why we need proper funding model for public transport and especially buses.

It feels like a lifetime ago now, but I remember the faces of thunder in the front row at Newcastle Civic Centre when the then Integrated Transport Authority gave it's approval to proceed with a move towards introducing Quality Contracts; and the fierce opposition that followed. Stagecoach, I recall, threatening to sack all their workforce rather than let QCS run.

The rest is obviously history now, but given the situation that operators are finding themselves in nowadays; both Go Ahead and Stagecoach going through the process of sales, two operators going bust, and another bought out in the last week alone, I'd suggest that any serious Managing Director would jump at the chance of being in a regulated or franchised market now...

My quote button will not work but I entirely love the above post. Spot on Adrian

I wouldn't want to quite Adrian's post but will add a round of applause.

And add that customer service needs to go well beyond anything on social media or even the GNE website. A lot of bus users still use brick phones and a lot of passengers on the 50 I caught this morning were confused on several fronts. Some that it ran 15 minutes earlier/later than it used to between Durham and cls. Some that it now took a massive detour between cls and Washington. And some that it had been an hour since the last one. Many passengers had been waiting for ages, unaware that the 10:36 from Durham had been cancelled.

(06 Aug 2022, 8:44 pm)Adrian wrote Customer Service and Social Media
Most operators, including Go North East, have cut down to an extremely limited customer services offering. An inability to contact all three major operators, during their operating hours, is problematic and not customer friendly in the slightest. GNE and Stagecoach, to their credit, have still kept local teams to perform this role close to their networks, whereas others have centralised as a cost-saving exercise. This could still be vastly improved, and ensuring that key bus stations are staffed is a must for me.

I agree with Ambassador's comments on Social Media, but again, I don't think GNE are alone here. Most bus operators that I see have absolutely dire platforms on Social Media, but that's not necessarily a training issue. Many companies will set standards on how they want their social platforms ran. LNER, for example, are quite laid back and engaging with customers. I think we can also learn lessons from the way the RMT have ran their social media during their rail dispute.

Whilst there's improvements to be made in both areas, do we think it has a massive influence on people using services? I'd personally suggest not.

In closing, I think there's a lot of points to consider, but at the same time need to acknowledge it's not solely a Go North East issue. GNE have jumped first on a lot of things, but it's just highlighting how broken the market is and why we need proper funding model for public transport and especially buses.

It feels like a lifetime ago now, but I remember the faces of thunder in the front row at Newcastle Civic Centre when the then Integrated Transport Authority gave it's approval to proceed with a move towards introducing Quality Contracts; and the fierce opposition that followed. Stagecoach, I recall, threatening to sack all their workforce rather than let QCS run.

The rest is obviously history now, but given the situation that operators are finding themselves in nowadays; both Go Ahead and Stagecoach going through the process of sales, two operators going bust, and another bought out in the last week alone, I'd suggest that any serious Managing Director would jump at the chance of being in a regulated or franchised market now...

I personally feel their customer services opening hours should be extended as 9am till 5pm just does not cut it for me personally nor does it provide any support to customers in the late evening if there is any service/app issues the customer may encounter, I would say operating hours should be 8am till 10pm as a minimum so that customers are supported from early morning till late evening. You'd have a morning shift of 8am till 4pm then a late of 2pm till 10pm so all hours are covered, yes staff might become unhappy about this but in the job role they do they and the company should be a lot more flexible in this offering and it would also open up opportunities to expand the team as no doubt there will be those out there who prefer working later hours.

Having left EE a few months back i'm due to be starting a new role in Customer Services with LNER in next week or so just waiting on a start date being confirmed, looking at there Customer Service opening hours they operate from 8am till 10pm which pretty much covers the bulk of there timetabled services.

Furthermore I think Bus Companies such as Go North East could learn a lot from there Rail counterparts when it comes to providing customer service, LNER was mentioned above and I am in full agreement with the statement made, there team regardless of the situation are pro-active in resolving issues for there customers and I would say given ongoing drivers shortages and cancellations of services as a result that Go North East should implement "Delay Repay" if there passengers have encountered delays in excess of 30 Minutes like we have on trains, I waited 35 minutes at The Galleries for an X1 to Gateshead but if I called there customers services would I get a resolution, would they refund my fare, more than likely not and at most i'd get is a half arsed apology and a lack of interest or empathy from the agent i'm speaking to as I have found in previous experiences when calling them.

If you look at Go North East Social Media a lot of queries go unanswered and to me seem to pick out the first handful of responses before in effect giving up and in turn not being pro-active like LNER in resolving complaints from customers, it's no wonder staff morale is at an all time low and that customers are tired of such a lacklustre services being provided to them day in day out and yes I would say passenger numbers have dropped as a result, for me I have always lived in Go North East territory whether that be in Washington or my current location of Low Fell however I feel as though it would be better for another operator to come to the front as I think the Go-Ahead Groups time is up here in the North East, it's time for a change because they are not going to and will continue there cut culture long after MG has gone at the end of the month.

So today I thought I would go onto some of GNE new services and JH Coaches, so i did, 39B, 82 and X71 (not a new route I know), I was meant to try the 29 but my bus broke down.. 

One thing that struck me about Doxford Park is that all the car parks were full of cars, as GNE keep cutting services from Doxford, with the 20 evening service cancelled, 55 all day Doxford service cancelled & 39 being every 30 mins on a Saturday, and every 60 mins on an evening, every 90 on a sunday, GNE should do what they did with Follingsby and go around all the businesses as see where there employee live so GNE can offer services to them. 

Because the 39/39A/39B must be one of the worst routes, Its like going from Newcastle - Metrocentre - Chester Le Street - Gateshead - Chester-Le-Street - Metrocentre - Newcastle, it should be a loop.

(08 Aug 2022, 8:21 pm)Unber43 wrote So today I thought I would go onto some of GNE new services and JH Coaches, so i did, 39B, 82, X7. 

One thing that struck me about Doxford Park is that all the car parks were full of cars, as GNE keep cutting services from Doxford, with the 20 evening service cancelled, 55 all day Doxford service cancelled & 39 being every 30 mins on a Saturday, and every 60 mins on an evening, every 90 on a sunday, GNE should do what they did with Follingsby and go around all the businesses as see where there employee live so GNE can offer services to them. 

Because the 39/39A/39B must be one of the worst routes, Its like going from Newcastle - Metrocentre - Chester Le Street - Gateshead - Chester-Le-Street - Metrocentre - Newcastle, it should be a loop.

In recent years, bus services (generally they all worked Sunderland - Houghton type routes) have been reduced in that area.


During the same period, the A690/A19 Interchange has had plenty of work done on it over the years.
Both lengthening and widening slip roads/junctions and working to improve the junction at Stoneygate.


Lots of reactive decision making. Very little proactive or creative planning.

Try looking at how easy it is to get from Penshaw to Doxford Park via bus and compare it to the car.
How about Bournmoor to Doxford Park. 
Seaham? 
Grindon?
Thorney Close? 
Murton? 

These aren't places that are miles away. These are the places the people who work in Doxford Park will be living.
Yet they can't use public transport easily, timely or efficiently. So they use the car and we see constant road improvement schemes to combat the traffic. 

Doxford Park isn't unique in this aspect either.

(08 Aug 2022, 8:46 pm)Andreos1 wrote In recent years, bus services (generally they all worked Sunderland - Houghton type routes) have been reduced in that area.


During the same period, the A690/A19 Interchange has had plenty of work done on it over the years.
Both lengthening and widening slip roads/junctions and working to improve the junction at Stoneygate.


Lots of reactive decision making. Very little proactive or creative planning.

Try looking at how easy it is to get from Penshaw to Doxford Park via bus and compare it to the car.
How about Bournmoor to Doxford Park. 
Seaham? 
Grindon?
Thorney Close? 
Murton? 

These aren't places that are miles away. These are the places the people who work in Doxford Park will be living.
Yet they can't use public transport easily, timely or efficiently. So they use the car and we see constant road improvement schemes to combat the traffic. 

Doxford Park isn't unique in this aspect either.

There's an argument that most out of town retail parks are designed in such a way that it ensures the car is king. Dalton Park is a perfect example of it; easy access from the A19, with a 'catchment area' stretching anywhere between Ryhope and the Tees Valley CA border. You're never going to be stuck for a parking space, and your car is on hand to load all your shopping into. IMO there's not much a bus can do to compete against that, and really it has a good service from it's catchment area in and around East Durham.

I don't visit Dalton Park much, but tend to spend a lot of time on buses going in and around the Arnison Centre. It's completely overbussed with the 21/50/64, and in my experience, only the 64 tends to pick up any passengers - and they're usually off by the time it gets out of Newton Hall.

Employment hubs like Doxford are a completely different kettle of fish, and if anything, it should be relatively easy to understand the travel needs of the businesses housed in those hubs. Doxford International's service is woeful, but given it's location and the access in and around it, how do you serve it more efficiently without pissing off users of existing services? Would those using the X10 want even more of a detour added?

You've made the point yourself recently that your mates were put off using the 4, because it now takes a detour around Follingsby, despite there not being many other practical ways of serving it. Again down to location, and then access coming off the A195 from Washington.

(08 Aug 2022, 9:06 pm)Adrian wrote There's an argument that most out of town retail parks are designed in such a way that it ensures the car is king. Dalton Park is a perfect example of it; easy access from the A19, with a 'catchment area' stretching anywhere between Ryhope and the Tees Valley CA border. You're never going to be stuck for a parking space, and your car is on hand to load all your shopping into. IMO there's not much a bus can do to compete against that, and really it has a good service from it's catchment area in and around East Durham.

I don't visit Dalton Park much, but tend to spend a lot of time on buses going in and around the Arnison Centre. It's completely overbussed with the 21/50/64, and in my experience, only the 64 tends to pick up any passengers - and they're usually off by the time it gets out of Newton Hall.

Employment hubs like Doxford are a completely different kettle of fish, and if anything, it should be relatively easy to understand the travel needs of the businesses housed in those hubs. Doxford International's service is woeful, but given it's location and the access in and around it, how do you serve it more efficiently without pissing off users of existing services? Would those using the X10 want even more of a detour added?

You've made the point yourself recently that your mates were put off using the 4, because it now takes a detour around Follingsby, despite there not being many other practical ways of serving it. Again down to location, and then access coming off the A195 from Washington.

I agree, they probably are designed for the car user. But there's nothing to stop bus operators actually doing something about it and offering a bus service.
Not too dissimilar to what has been done at the Metrocentre - but just maybe from a wider range of destinations and not just have that conga of multicoloured buses travelling between Blaydon or Swalwell and Newcastle.

Dalton Park is the same. With a never ending conga of buses travelling back and forth from Sunderland.

Yet both places have seen investment in the road network in and around it. Why? Because car is king by natural selection or because car is king by default of a pretty naff bus network that makes it nigh on impossible to use.

We keep hearing that it's easier to create a business case for extending an existing route and under the current regime, I can see that X10 diversion in to Doxford being the 'fix'.
I think we all know it isn't the fix.
Just as the 4 isn't the ideal fix between Washington and Follingsby.

Really its hard to find a fix to Dalton Park, Doxford Park, Follingsby without disrupting someones journey.

To make these routes successful you need to plan a route which take workers and passengers where they want to go, I wonder how many people that work at Follingsby live past the Tyne Tunnel, or Past the MetroCentre, or Sunderland. The truth this people might not mind 1 hour on the bus, compared to 30 mins in the car, its when you have to change in Gateshead, Heworth or Houghton.

E.g you live in Crawcrook you'll need to change atleast 3 times. Im not saying every single destination will get a service, but the fact that GNE could do an express from Sunderland to Newcastle via Heworth, Doxford & Follingsby, then maybe peak times when shifts finish do a peak time service on the express to Crawcrook.

Perhaps the 61/63 could be turned into a loop, Sunderland > A690 (into the little areas), Doxford, A19, Murton, New Seaham, then 61A to Sunderland there is no need for the 61 to do the 60 way into Sunderland.

Or bring in the 62 which again could go via Doxford it would provide links to the A690, Sunderland Colllege, Doxford Park, Seaham, Easington Village, Peterlee.

But it is the idea to have enough passengers wanting to go to Doxford Park, while getting enough lesuire passengers to supplement route.

(08 Aug 2022, 9:24 pm)Andreos1 wrote I agree, they probably are designed for the car user. But there's nothing to stop bus operators actually doing something about it and offering a bus service.
Not too dissimilar to what has been done at the Metrocentre - but just maybe from a wider range of destinations and not just have that conga of multicoloured buses travelling between Blaydon or Swalwell and Newcastle.

Dalton Park is the same. With a never ending conga of buses travelling back and forth from Sunderland.

Yet both places have seen investment in the road network in and around it. Why? Because car is king by natural selection or because car is king by default of a pretty naff bus network that makes it nigh on impossible to use.

We keep hearing that it's easier to create a business case for extending an existing route and under the current regime, I can see that X10 diversion in to Doxford being the 'fix'.
I think we all know it isn't the fix.
Just as the 4 isn't the ideal fix between Washington and Follingsby.

Personally I think the way it should be done is what Nottingham does and charge X per parking space over a certain number. Watch how interested the likes of Doxford Park, Cobalt, Amazon etc would be if they done that.

That money could be then spent on tendering bus routes to serve these places since the business parks are effectively paying for them anyway.

It would also benefit our town centre's since the out of town benefits are pretty much dead. Rent aside.

(08 Aug 2022, 10:16 pm)Storx wrote Personally I think the way it should be done is what Nottingham does and charge X per parking space over a certain number. Watch how interested the likes of Doxford Park, Cobalt, Amazon etc would be if they done that.

That money could be then spent on tendering bus routes to serve these places since the business parks are effectively paying for them anyway.

It would also benefit our town centre's since the out of town benefits are pretty much dead. Rent aside.

Why punish motorists though, for opting to avoid poor quality public transport?

Why not have a network that people want to use for convenience, rather than because they've had their hand forced?

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