(07 Dec 2021, 11:29 pm)Keeiajs wrote Does anyone think there will be a Euro 7,

https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2...Euro-7.pdf

(08 Dec 2021, 8:30 am)54APhotography wrote https://www.aecc.eu/wp-content/uploads/2...Euro-7.pdf

Stupid question - Will they increase the prices of new builds by much?

I think this is probably recycled from what Newcastle CC put out at the end of November, but: 'Newcastle calls for grant support ahead of CAZ launch'

"The council has asked the government for £23m to pay for grants that would help towards the cost of upgrading vehicles so that CAZ charges can be avoided.
"However, the council is still awaiting feedback from the government, as soon as they find out how much funding will be available they will let residents know via a new newsletter."

Also quotes a start date of July 2022 for the Newcastle CAZ, although it remains to be seen whether or not that is pushed back like Bradford's CAZ scheme did.

Have heard from a few people now that the Enviro 200 MMC at Stockton are going to Newcastle been swapped with the older Man Alexander 300s. That would mean Stockton gets a downgrade while Newcastle is upgraded further.

(09 Jan 2022, 11:40 pm)col87 wrote Have heard from a few people now that the Enviro 200 MMC at Stockton are going to Newcastle been swapped with the older Man Alexander 300s. That would mean Stockton gets a downgrade while Newcastle is upgraded further.

It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

(09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm)peter wrote It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

Indeed; it's really not what the Council's objective is!

However, if the air quality in Stockton and Sunderland is OK, whereas that in Newcastle is poor, then the quality in Newcastle needs to be improved.  If the means of achieving this then means that Stockton and Sunderland's air quality falls below that required, then those locations will also get CAZs proposed, which in turn WILL require expenditure on new vehicles as there's no more spare capacity for the merry-go-round to continue.

(10 Jan 2022, 10:29 am)Ianthegoon wrote Indeed; it's really not what the Council's objective is!

However, if the air quality in Stockton and Sunderland is OK, whereas that in Newcastle is poor, then the quality in Newcastle needs to be improved.  If the means of achieving this then means that Stockton and Sunderland's air quality falls below that required, then those locations will also get CAZs proposed, which in turn WILL require expenditure on new vehicles as there's no more spare capacity for the merry-go-round to continue.

100% agee with this.  It would be hardly an option to say that every but in england need to meet the require standard by xxx date. so start in the worst place which include Newcastle. Now if SCNE and other want to move there buses around then that really a matter for them and as Ian says if stockten/5under1and get them and there quality decreases they will get new buses and the buses they received will be moved onto another area i would guess and so forth.  Not ideal by any means...

(10 Jan 2022, 11:11 am)Rob44 wrote 100% agee with this.  It would be hardly an option to say that every but in england need to meet the require standard by xxx date. so start in the worst place which include Newcastle. Now if SCNE and other want to move there buses around then that really a matter for them and as Ian says if stockten/5under1and get them and there quality decreases they will get new buses and the buses they received will be moved onto another area i would guess and so forth.  Not ideal by any means...

You also have to remember that there isn't the finance or the manufacturing capability to carry out a mass switch-over to Euro 6 vehicles - if it was enforced, we'd be seeing operators decide which were the most profitable routes to keep and everything else would get binned.  Not exactly the best way to encourage bus travel!  Hence the bit-by-bit approach.  Eventually there may come a time when the switch can be mandated, but that won't be until the majority of vehicles already meet the regulations and they just need to encourage the last few across the line.

(09 Jan 2022, 11:52 pm)peter wrote It makes a bit of a mockery of the whole CAZ initiative if vehicles aren't upgraded or replaced and are pushed about elsewhere. It's not just Stagecoach of course Go North East have done it too. Would be interesting to know what the air quality impacts are for Stockton and Sunderland.

I think you're right that it makes a mockery of a CAZ scheme, when it results in neighbouring Towns and Cities suffer as a result, but Councils are largely very parochial by nature and quite frankly won't care less. One of the biggest reasons that the North East devolution has never really progressed.

And whilst some places have ended up with big downgrades and a lesser service for customers there, I do think at the same time it should be recognised the substantial investment that has gone into preparation for the Newcastle CAZ. Walkergate and Slatyford have had 47x E400MMCs and 18x E200MMCs between them. Then there's the original 19x Streetdecks for the Angel, 20x Streetdecks across the X1/X45/X46, 18x E400MMCs and and 11x E200MMCs that Go North East have brought into service.

The ideal would be to regulate against the use of older buses in service work, but in reality it's going to be a problem that solves itself in the next couple of years, as some of these older buses are already on their last legs.

(11 Jan 2022, 12:27 pm)Adrian wrote I think you're right that it makes a mockery of a CAZ scheme, when it results in neighbouring Towns and Cities suffer as a result, but Councils are largely very parochial by nature and quite frankly won't care less. One of the biggest reasons that the North East devolution has never really progressed.

And whilst some places have ended up with big downgrades and a lesser service for customers there, I do think at the same time it should be recognised the substantial investment that has gone into preparation for the Newcastle CAZ. Walkergate and Slatyford have had 47x E400MMCs and 18x E200MMCs between them. Then there's the original 19x Streetdecks for the Angel, 20x Streetdecks across the X1/X45/X46, 18x E400MMCs and and 11x E200MMCs that Go North East have brought into service.
 
The ideal would be to regulate against the use of older buses in service work, but in reality it's going to be a problem that solves itself in the next couple of years, as some of these older buses are already on their last legs. 

I've often wondered if we see an arbitrary deadline set by the government, which would see these vehicles replaced before they're life expired - similar to the low floor situation.
Of course, the manufacturers would see a massive boost in orders and of course, the operators would see those orders subsidised by the taxpayer.

(11 Jan 2022, 12:27 pm)Adrian wrote I think you're right that it makes a mockery of a CAZ scheme, when it results in neighbouring Towns and Cities suffer as a result, but Councils are largely very parochial by nature and quite frankly won't care less. One of the biggest reasons that the North East devolution has never really progressed.

And whilst some places have ended up with big downgrades and a lesser service for customers there, I do think at the same time it should be recognised the substantial investment that has gone into preparation for the Newcastle CAZ. Walkergate and Slatyford have had 47x E400MMCs and 18x E200MMCs between them. Then there's the original 19x Streetdecks for the Angel, 20x Streetdecks across the X1/X45/X46, 18x E400MMCs and and 11x E200MMCs that Go North East have brought into service.

The ideal would be to regulate against the use of older buses in service work, but in reality it's going to be a problem that solves itself in the next couple of years, as some of these older buses are already on their last legs.

Yeah, I guess it's more of that lacking in joined up thinking I suppose. However of course I also appreciate the comment Rob44 made that you can't upgrade or replace every bus everywhere all at the same time. And I completely agree, GNE and SNE should be commended for the amount of investment in recent years in preparation for the CAZ. And while Arriva don't get any credit for new vehicles, I will give them credit for not swapping out the Streetlites at Darlington, as it was highly rumoured that would end up happening.

You make a good point about older vehicles are on their last legs, and to a certain extent, I can't blame the operators for moving the vehicles around to somewhere without a CAZ, because there's little incentive in upgrading them when they have a couple years left in service. Let's say Sunderland do end up implementing a CAZ in the next couple years, by that time the Citaro's and Versa's will be life-expired and withdrawn anyway. I think the key point there is that it is life expired vehicles being moved. If either operator had moved about 15 or 16 plate Euro 5 vehicles that still had another 8 or 9 years in them that would likely need exhaust emissions in the future anyway, (so were avoiding upgrading them now for the sake of it) that would be different. As it is, hopefully it will only be a short-term downgrade in these areas before the vehicles are replaced with new(er) ones in the not too distant future. So on the whole, I can appreciate that surrounding areas are only likely to lose out in the short-term. But regardless, it's still not a good thing that air quality is potentially being made worse in some areas at the expense of others for any time period. So while the CAZ might be a huge success in improving air quality in Newcastle itself, looking at it holistically, it'll only be successful when those vehicles are eventually removed from service in the surrounding areas.

All the recent re allocations and re paints now wasted as the Clean air zone has been postponed, might as well scrap the idea all together https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...PPddAw2TXQ

I'd rather see the money spent on the Tyne Bridge to be honest,something much more deserving of the money

(12 May 2022, 1:18 pm)N1cholas wrote All the recent re allocations and re paints now wasted as the Clean air zone has been postponed, might as well scrap the idea all together https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...PPddAw2TXQ

Postponed not scrapped, so not wasted at all.

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(12 May 2022, 5:53 pm)V514DFT wrote I'd rather see the money spent on the Tyne Bridge to be honest,something much more deserving of the money

Life’s not that simple, you can’t just spend an allocated pot of funding on a completely different thing.

Tyne Bridge is deserving, but is it really “much more deserving” than our health and the health of future generations?

(12 May 2022, 6:28 pm)ne14ne1 wrote Postponed not scrapped, so not wasted at all.

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Life’s not that simple, you can’t just spend an allocated pot of funding on a completely different thing.

Tyne Bridge is deserving, but is it really “much more deserving” than our health and the health of future generations?

It'll happen again. It'll keep getting postponed

(12 May 2022, 6:33 pm)Aaron21 wrote It'll happen again. It'll keep getting postponed

Maybe. My point still stands though.

“” “All preparations for the Clean Air Zone remain ongoing, including work on the installation of technology and signage and systems testing. All will progress significantly over the summer.”

(12 May 2022, 5:53 pm)V514DFT wrote I'd rather see the money spent on the Tyne Bridge to be honest,something much more deserving of the money

They've spent a fair chunk on loans for a hotel during Covid and ironically given their 'green' credentials a loan for a car park. Not to mention the shambles of Killingworth Road, John Dobson Street, Haymarket infact just anything they touch.

Might aswell mention the bus gate for 1 bus route every 15 minutes and the farce around Askew Road on the opposite side of the water.

It’s electoral suicide to introduce it no matter how much they blame central government. In good economic conditions you can take it on the chin but not now.

They can’t justify a charge during the current cost of living pressures and that won’t go away for a long time, priorities have changed and the green agenda is slipping below peoples needs to well….live

(12 May 2022, 8:35 pm)Ambassador wrote It’s electoral suicide to introduce it no matter how much they blame central government. In good economic conditions you can take it on the chin but not now.

They can’t justify a charge during the current cost of living pressures and that won’t go away for a long time, priorities have changed and the green agenda is slipping below peoples needs to well….live

Not sure politics would make much difference here. Newcastle and Gateshead won't change from Labour regardless as there's too many who just blindly tick the box in both areas. Newcastle West End is like a third world country with litter everywhere and they keep voting them in.

It's more likely that both of them have got the same contractors in that do all the other works in the area which a job that should take 2 months, takes 2 years and it's just not ready.

(Haymarket, John Dobson Street, Killingworth Road, Kingston Park, Askew Road, Gateshead Bus Gate, Heworth)

Lol. It’s like reading the FB and Chronicle comments. 

(12 May 2022, 7:29 pm)ne14ne1 wrote Maybe. My point still stands though.

“” “All preparations for the Clean Air Zone remain ongoing, including work on the installation of technology and signage and systems testing. All will progress significantly over the summer.”

This suggests that the introduction of the Clean Air Zone could go ahead (no pun intended) later this year or early next year for example.

(21 May 2022, 2:47 pm)Metroline1511 wrote This suggests that the introduction of the Clean Air Zone could go ahead (no pun intended) later this year or early next year for example.

Yes. Again, postponed, not scrapped.

What services are being upgraded to Euro 6 for GNE. 

Apparently the 05 & 06 plates may be getting upgraded or at least some of them. And Maybe the Voyager Geminis. Cos Consett definitely needs a few (not sure after these service changes would this be an issue). CLS could do with a few but Euro 6 voyagers would do with that. Hexham, possibly another one. 


But 684 will need something doing as I think they need atleast 1 Euro 6 upgrade. Washington need atleast a PVR of 16 (2 spare) for X1. Deptford need atleast one or two more.

So GNE are well on their way to a CAZ-compliant fleet for their services that will enter the CAZ.

I think I saw a post in the Stagecoach area of the forum saying only a single-digit number of vehicles are not compliant but they’ll probably be sent off soon and replaced with Euro6 vehicles. I think that’s been said about Walkergates Depot.
Is that pretty much the case for Slatyford depot too?

And once Arriva North East take delivery of their new E400MMCs and cascade vehicles around is that them CAZ-compliant for all their CAZ routes too?

Suppose put simply my question is, are the ‘big 3’ operators pretty much ready now/will be soon?

(28 May 2022, 4:12 pm)ne14ne1 wrote So GNE are well on their way to a CAZ-compliant fleet for their services that will enter the CAZ.

I think I saw a post in the Stagecoach area of the forum saying only a single-digit number of vehicles are not compliant but they’ll probably be sent off soon and replaced with Euro6 vehicles. I think that’s been said about Walkergates Depot.
Is that pretty much the case for Slatyford depot too?

And once Arriva North East take delivery of their new E400MMCs and cascade vehicles around is that them CAZ-compliant for all their CAZ routes too?

Suppose put simply my question is, are the ‘big 3’ operators pretty much ready now/will be soon?

It's the Enviro 200 MMC's Arriva need more than the Enviro 400 MMC's to replace the Solo's at Jesmond on the 46, 51/51A and 55. Haven't heard much about them for awhile though, assuming they'll be coming at the same time though.

(28 May 2022, 4:16 pm)Storx wrote It's the Enviro 200 MMC's Arriva need more than the Enviro 400 MMC's to replace the Solo's at Jesmond on the 46, 51/51A and 55. Haven't heard much about them for awhile though, assuming they'll be coming at the same time though.

Ah yes, I should’ve put 200s & 400s.
As well as the obvious environmental benefits it’ll be nice to see a good chuck of Arriva NE’s fleet hopefully presented smartly, in the current livery, applied to modern vehicles. It doesn’t happen very often.

Looks like Newcastle wasn't the only place to have the new euro rating pushed back

Bradfords much delayed Clean Air Zone (CAZ) which was last supposed to start this spring has been given a last minute further delay until Mon 26th Sept 2022.
This of course means Huddersfield can continue for a while with the tatty looking guided buses on the X63 where there was some speculation as to what was happening.
Presumably Bradfords remaining 8 non CAZ buses - vis- B7s, 32697, 37049, 40, 66749 and BMCs 68689, 698, 700, 709 will still move on with the arrival of the imminent 11 Wright single deckers (63421-31 ?).
K

“The proposals would see the Clean Air Zone (CAZ) brought into operation later this year, with drivers of non-compliant vehicles entering the zone being sent warning letters, along with details about financial support, from November.”

“Subject to government approval, charges for non-compliant taxis, buses and HGVs would begin from 30 January 2023.”

“Cabinet members will also be asked to agree further support measures, including additional exemptions for a small number of vehicles such as rail replacement buses and coaches, bus and HGV driver training vehicles, breakdown recovery vehicles, hybrid vehicles and taxis and vans belonging to people living within the CAZ area.”

https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/citylife-ne...-proposals

Not Newcastle I know but this is what the CAZ should avoid ...

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1045816946074179?fs=e&s=cl

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...HxK9A4Ej6I 

Delayed again

Also another thing all private cars are exempt...what is the point of the CAZ then..