(21 Aug 2023, 8:28 pm)Adrian wrote I think it highlights something important.

The general public are well-aware of the amount of crap bus drivers get on a daily basis, but the vast majority respect the important job that they do.

In my opinion, operators aren't doing nearly enough to make working conditions a lot better for their driving staff. Without going over old ground on conditions, shifts, etc, which we've discussed 100x before on here, I'd bet that a rude customer is simply the trigger point or the straw that breaks the camel's back.

A lot more needs to be done, and if it was, perhaps recruitment and retention wouldn't be such a problem.



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Companies don’t help to smooth that interaction between customer and driver, and in some cases seem to hinder it. 

What are the main reasons there are conflict between drivers and passengers?  

I would suggest:

1: late running / buses failing to turn up and lack of communication of those things. 

Most drivers don’t deliberately run late or have any say in the matter of runs being pulled, but as the first point of contact are the ones who face the ire of the waiting passenger usually without answers.  
Obvious solutions include more sensible running times, most are optimistic to say the least, 65min journeys timed to fit an hourly cycle etc. but when things go wrong keep the customers informed.  This is poorly done at the moment through social media and the app. Why not give the driver some basic info, this can be easily done through the Ticketer. Brief explanations can be transmitted to the driver (such as ‘the bus in front of you didn’t run as it broke down’ or ‘all xx buses are running late due to the temporary lights at xx junction’ 

2: issues over what is allowed on buses , conditions of carriage.    There are a myriad of petty little rules that should be enforced, but trying to for the comfort or benefit of the majority of passengers can cause a great many problems for the driver from the minority. Have you ever tried to find an up to date copy of conditions of carriage, and one that doesn’t confuse?   (Look at how pushchairs should be carried for just one example). 
Solution? Simplify and display updated versions on vehicles so that rules are enforced in a consistent manner. That driver is in charge of the bus and has the safety and comfort of his/her passengers as a priority therefore it is that driver who should have the final say and should not be trying to second guess what management will do if a passenger is upset that they weren’t allowed to eat their greasy pastie whilst travelling. 

3: misunderstandings over fares and tickets.  
Said many a time on here.  Far too complicated. Simplify! When prices go up, advertise rises well in advance, not just a couple of days before. Aggravation caused over change giving - compromise, refuse £20 notes and above, make this an operator policy so there can be no argument.

Re buses failing to turn up; one of the first indications I get that the bus in front has been pulled (aside from seeing it coming out of the terminus with "City Centre" on the front) is when I get an earful off passengers - sometimes you can go a while before anyone says anything, by which point you cotton on because the bus is way busier than it should be.

(27 Aug 2023, 10:28 pm)itsadam wrote Has anyone heard what happened to the driver yet?

I heard he/she handed their stuff into the depots a couple of days after the incident

(28 Aug 2023, 2:22 pm)Unber43 wrote I heard he/she handed their stuff into the depots a couple of days after the incident

Still employed by the company at the minute

The 20 we were on towards Durham yesterday was full to the brim all the way, we couldn't even get a row of seats to ourselves until Houghton. It was very stressful for me as a passenger, I'd certainly have dreaded to be the driver of that journey.

(29 Aug 2023, 8:35 am)wibblejunior wrote The 20 we were on towards Durham yesterday was full to the brim all the way, we couldn't even get a row of seats to ourselves until Houghton. It was very stressful for me as a passenger, I'd certainly have dreaded to be the driver of that journey.

Thats every day as far as I see. It's one of those 'temporarily' reduced frequencies that never returned....If one is late or cancelled then its a domino effect. I am guessing GNE are aware of this on all maxed out frequency vs passenger limits (size of bus). For example on X1, 4, X10, 20/20A just to name a few... 

It's a disgrace that a company is aware of this and allows passengers to 'dread' travelling by their buses because of cost saving and maximising patronage per bus or if they're not aware then thats a whole other issue...

(29 Aug 2023, 11:22 pm)logidoodah wrote Thats every day as far as I see. It's one of those 'temporarily' reduced frequencies that never returned....If one is late or cancelled then its a domino effect. I am guessing GNE are aware of this on all maxed out frequency vs passenger limits (size of bus). For example on X1, 4, X10, 20/20A just to name a few... 

It's a disgrace that a company is aware of this and allows passengers to 'dread' travelling by their buses because of cost saving and maximising patronage per bus or if they're not aware then thats a whole other issue...

Wasn't there something when the 65/20/20A getting combined about "bigger buses" being used on busier journeys. I haven't seen a decker on the 20 in ages, although granted, I'm rarely at Park Lane at peak times.

(30 Aug 2023, 12:26 pm)deanmachine wrote Wasn't there something when the 65/20/20A getting combined about "bigger buses" being used on busier journeys. I haven't seen a decker on the 20 in ages, although granted, I'm rarely at Park Lane at peak times.

Two consecutive weekday boards are typically allocated deckers. The boards which form the 0708 and 0732 journeys to Langley Park.

Mental health is no excuse. If drivers want the respect of being seen as highly paid responsible professionals, they need to accept they have a duty to report issues with their own health that they are aware of, before putting themselves and their passengers in a situation like this. This doesn't sound like it was an immediate and unforeseeable break with reality. I find it far more likely that this incident was an indication that these days drivers are getting professional pay and conditions even though they clearly aren't equipped for the challenges of modern day public service.

The company is always to blame, even though there would be absolute outrage among the unions if they did what seems to be necessary and started assessing their current and future workers for issues such as an inability to monitor and control your own emotions to the point you could and would quit in this fashion. It's worth bearing in mind that bus passengers are some of the most vulnerable people in society, children, old people, people with their own issues, people for whom being abandoned in this fashion could and would be quite distressing.

One of the protections of being an employee in this country of course, is the extraordinary difficulty in private citizens holding you personally liable for what are undeniably personal failings of a professional nature. One of the many hidden but significant costs involved in running a business, as any bus driver would realize, if they has a broader perspective on life in general.

(16 Sep 2023, 11:08 am)Fleetmaster wrote Mental health is no excuse. If drivers want the respect of being seen as highly paid responsible professionals, they need to accept they have a duty to report issues with their own health that they are aware of, before putting themselves and their passengers in a situation like this. This doesn't sound like it was an immediate and unforeseeable break with reality. I find it far more likely that this incident was an indication that these days drivers are getting professional pay and conditions even though they clearly aren't equipped for the challenges of modern day public service.

The company is always to blame, even though there would be absolute outrage among the unions if they did what seems to be necessary and started assessing their current and future workers for issues such as an inability to monitor and control your own emotions to the point you could and would quit in this fashion. It's worth bearing in mind that bus passengers are some of the most vulnerable people in society, children, old people, people with their own issues, people for whom being abandoned in this fashion could and would be quite distressing.

One of the protections of being an employee in this country of course, is the extraordinary difficulty in private citizens holding you personally liable for what are undeniably personal failings of a professional nature. One of the many hidden but significant costs involved in running a business, as any bus driver would realize, if they has a broader perspective on life in general.

The problem isn't on the road as such......it's the power hungry "Blakey's" back at the depot who are sniffing blood for the thrill of exercising their "power"!

(16 Sep 2023, 11:08 am)Fleetmaster wrote Mental health is no excuse. If drivers want the respect of being seen as highly paid responsible professionals, they need to accept they have a duty to report issues with their own health that they are aware of, before putting themselves and their passengers in a situation like this. This doesn't sound like it was an immediate and unforeseeable break with reality. I find it far more likely that this incident was an indication that these days drivers are getting professional pay and conditions even though they clearly aren't equipped for the challenges of modern day public service.

The company is always to blame, even though there would be absolute outrage among the unions if they did what seems to be necessary and started assessing their current and future workers for issues such as an inability to monitor and control your own emotions to the point you could and would quit in this fashion. It's worth bearing in mind that bus passengers are some of the most vulnerable people in society, children, old people, people with their own issues, people for whom being abandoned in this fashion could and would be quite distressing.

One of the protections of being an employee in this country of course, is the extraordinary difficulty in private citizens holding you personally liable for what are undeniably personal failings of a professional nature. One of the many hidden but significant costs involved in running a business, as any bus driver would realize, if they has a broader perspective on life in general.

Do GNE give staff the right support towards their mental health. Do the staff feel comfortable reporting issues they might have? Also, mental health isn't an exact science. Some people might not realise how bad they are until a certain moment, an incident might happen which triggers them and at that moment they realise they can't cope. We just don't know what happened in this case, and nor should we. The drivers health is private, the company have a duty to keep that way which they seem to have.

As for the comment about them wanting to be "High paid, respected professionals", I know of higher paid people than bus drivers who've had to walk out on work as their mental health has been an issue. It can effect anyone, high wages doesn't make you immune.

I can't imagine a single scenario where this driver would pass a proper psych evaluation at the time he was hired, and at no point in the interveing time between then and now have any clue he was having issues. I takes no special reading of the relevant laws and company policies to know that a driver who is aware they have problems is expected to inform their employer. This is what it means to be a professional, to accept your share of responsibility for your personal duty of care to your passengers and your employer.

If the employer has in their eyes failed to meet their needs, they should not have reported for work and instead taken advantage of the fact GNE clearly has an active and indeed militant union representing its workforce. And even if they didn't have that to support them, in this day and age it is just a tiny bit laughable to think the management are not aware of what could and would happen if it was ever determined that they asked, persuaded or indeed forced a worker who had duly reported their belief they were having issues that could affect passenger safety, to just man up and driver the effin bus or face the consequences.

Professionalism cuts both ways. Paying NHS doctors top dollar and giving them whatever perks they want, comes with it an expectation they at a very minimum monitor their patients condition and take the concerns of relatives seriously. And yet here we are, in 2023, facing the depressing reality of having to make that a specific law.

(16 Sep 2023, 7:34 pm)Fleetmaster wrote I can't imagine a single scenario where this driver would pass a proper psych evaluation at the time he was hired, and at no point in the interveing time between then and now have any clue he was having issues. I takes no special reading of the relevant laws and company policies to know that a driver who is aware they have problems is expected to inform their employer. This is what it means to be a professional, to accept your share of responsibility for your personal duty of care to your passengers and your employer.

If the employer has in their eyes failed to meet their needs, they should not have reported for work and instead taken advantage of the fact GNE clearly has an active and indeed militant union representing its workforce. And even if they didn't have that to support them, in this day and age it is just a tiny bit laughable to think the management are not aware of what could and would happen if it was ever determined that they asked, persuaded or indeed forced a worker who had duly reported their belief they were having issues that could affect passenger safety, to just man up and driver the effin bus or face the consequences.

Professionalism cuts both ways. Paying NHS doctors top dollar and giving them whatever perks they want, comes with it an expectation they at a very minimum monitor their patients condition and take the concerns of relatives seriously. And yet here we are, in 2023, facing the depressing reality of having to make that a specific law.

Employed for 10 years and just had the news his sisters got cancer. 
But aye. No clues...

(16 Sep 2023, 11:08 am)Fleetmaster wrote Mental health is no excuse. If drivers want the respect of being seen as highly paid responsible professionals, they need to accept they have a duty to report issues with their own health that they are aware of, before putting themselves and their passengers in a situation like this. This doesn't sound like it was an immediate and unforeseeable break with reality. I find it far more likely that this incident was an indication that these days drivers are getting professional pay and conditions even though they clearly aren't equipped for the challenges of modern day public service.

The company is always to blame, even though there would be absolute outrage among the unions if they did what seems to be necessary and started assessing their current and future workers for issues such as an inability to monitor and control your own emotions to the point you could and would quit in this fashion. It's worth bearing in mind that bus passengers are some of the most vulnerable people in society, children, old people, people with their own issues, people for whom being abandoned in this fashion could and would be quite distressing.

One of the protections of being an employee in this country of course, is the extraordinary difficulty in private citizens holding you personally liable for what are undeniably personal failings of a professional nature. One of the many hidden but significant costs involved in running a business, as any bus driver would realize, if they has a broader perspective on life in general.

I couldn't tell if this was an attempt at satire or not, suggesting that this incident may have been a driver buckling under the pressure of so-called 'professional pay and conditions'...

Most unions actually insist that employers do more to look after both the physical and mental health of their employees. It's usually the employers that won't play ball, instead opting to run the odd 'staff survey' instead. They normally refer to it as 'unproductive time' or something, counting up every second that a driver isn't driving a bus.

I don't agree with it, but I'd say that it's a damning indictment on an employer that someone has opted to resign in this fashion. If you create a decent workplace culture, you'll find that your workers respect you, and they'll most likely come to you when they're having issues.

(16 Sep 2023, 7:37 pm)Andreos1 wrote Employed for 10 years and just had the news his sisters got cancer. 
But aye. No clues...

Aye, and it could happen to any of us. 

And of course, no one ever bottles up their emotions until it's too late...

@fleetmaster I find your comments and opinions offensive, outdated and to a degree pretty ignorant. 

A poor state of mental health is not an ‘excuse’.  The fact is management simply don’t care, or refuse to do anything to protect their workforce from abusive punters, unsafe working conditions, and work their staff to the minute of the law in terms of breaks.  They knowingly send staff frequently into situations of conflict by pulling services and forcing other services to run excessively late, work minimal break and then sent out late again to soak up more abuse by passengers and other feral members of the public almost every shift.

Anyone can suffer from poor mental health at any point in their life whether they’re classed as a professional or not, and everyone is different in the way they view, understand, and handle it.  Some people recognise the signs, others have no clue until they’ve reached or gone beyond breaking point.  There is a telephone helpline provided, but the company is unwilling to stand up for staff that are constantly abused simply saying ‘there’s nothing we can do’.

There is no psychometric test or other major screening in the process to become a bus driver, eyesight, diabetes, heart conditions and hypertension are the only real things that are singled out.  

As long as the company has a bum in the seat on the road they quite honestly couldn’t give two hoots about the welfare of the driver unless the worst happens and then they’re looking for anyone other than themselves to blame.  You might not think any of this happens, but I can assure you it most definately does.  You wonder why there is a problem recruiting and retaining bus drivers? 

 I can assure you it’s rarely that people are unable to drive a bus (although there are some knackers out there), it’s that they are unsupported and set up to fail by the company.  Clearly you’re not a union supporter, but if there wasn’t one in the company they would be given carte Blanche to do even less than they already do.

(16 Sep 2023, 8:11 pm)xpm wrote As long as the company has a bum in the seat on the road they quite honestly couldn’t give two hoots about the welfare of the driver unless the worst happens and then they’re looking for anyone other than themselves to blame.  You might not think any of this happens, but I can assure you it most definately does.  You wonder why there is a problem recruiting and retaining bus drivers? 

 I can assure you it’s rarely that people are unable to drive a bus (although there are some knackers out there), it’s that they are unsupported and set up to fail by the company.  Clearly you’re not a union supporter, but if there wasn’t one in the company they would be given carte Blanche to do even less than they already do.

Summed it up to a T. Again......only got the power hungry d******d managers to blame who love their power trips!

Sort that out and the whole driver shortage issue will become non existent!

It’s lovely to see GNE Management from the 1970s have joined, welcome Fleetmaster

Pro branding, pro GNES management, anti union…welcome aboard Ben!

That there aren't psychometric tests is the whole point. The union wouldn't stand for it, but how else is a company under these hostile conditions of it being automatically assumed the company is to blame here, meant to know if a driver will do something like this, when people seem quite happy to use the excuse of mental health to claim a driver would have no idea they had this in them, or would have justifiable reason not to report it. And yes, these tests do figure out to a very reliable degree what someone is likely to do when they receive terrible news.

The alternative is prosecuting the driver for costs, if the passengers ever go after the company in the courts, as a deterrent to knowingly unprofessional behavior on the part of employees who are quite clleary not hired on the simple basis they can turn a wheel and push a pedal. No company would want to do that, but it is an option, and I do not think the employee would have much chance of proving this came out of absolutely nowhere. There would be instances where the employees lack of action was pertinent. There would not however be much if any evidence that the company failed in its legal duties.

One of those duties is of course to respect legal break times. If drivers don't like how a particular company operates within the law, they are free to take their labour elsewhere. They should count themselves lucky they live in a country where if they are that unhappy with their employer and are that confident they know how to run a company better, they are legally allowed to set up their own bus company. It is of course ironically a lot harder to do these days precisely because unions and left wing governments have never been fans of this sort of thing. It suits them to have everyone believe that workers and bosses are entirely different species.

The problem is that the industry at large is broken - smaller companies can offer a surprisingly different option - take for example Garnetts - if I lived closer to Bishop I would have been seriously tempted.

The race to the bottom is real. It always used to be first group that used to be the lauded disciplinary kings for tea and biccies, but gne takes it to another level. The donkey has to have some carrot to be motivated not just a stick, and if the only motivation is to not be hit by the stick then the donkey will only do as much work as it needs to do to avoid the stick - so who’s the real donkey?

Psychometric tests are used as a filter system to bring down application numbers and to see if someone can fit into a box - nothing else. It doesn’t guarantee a thing - in fact it smacks of lazy recruitment and elitist aspirations. You try and get into the prison service and I can tell you, the amount of hoops and tests they put you through during the application process and training, people still fail.

At least half the drivers I used to work at, at my depot left either before or shortly after me, some had been there as short time, most had been there 5-10 years or more - so you tell me where the problem is again?

Your motivation is having a relatively stable well paid job that, for a well balanced person who is capable of regulating their emotions and can conduct themselves with professionalism, can actually be quite enjoyable.

You are certainly protected far more than most workers, physically and legally. You aren't expected to smash cars out the way to meet your timings. You aren't expected to physically intervene to protect life or property. You have the emergency services to hand at the touch of a button. You have a legal right to standard of welfare that no union could ever argue was below the minimum standards of civilization.

It is, bizarrely, now totally accepted that you have no moral obligations to the company whatsoever.

You are entitled to huge sums of money if your rights are not respected by your employer, and it's never been easier to exercise those rights.

Anyone who can't handle the conditions of the current industry, probably isn't fit for work at all, certainly nothing above minimum wage, for some fundamental reason that is core to who they are or how they have been raised.

(17 Sep 2023, 10:34 am)Fleetmaster wrote Your motivation is having a relatively stable well paid job that, for a well balanced person who is capable of regulating their emotions and can conduct themselves with professionalism, can actually be quite enjoyable.

You are certainly protected far more than most workers, physically and legally. You aren't expected to smash cars out the way to meet your timings. You aren't expected to physically intervene to protect life or property. You have the emergency services to hand at the touch of a button. You have a legal right to standard of welfare that no union could ever argue was below the minimum standards of civilization.

It is, bizarrely, now totally accepted that you have no moral obligations to the company whatsoever.

You are entitled to huge sums of money if your rights are not respected by your employer, and it's never been easier to exercise those rights.

Anyone who can't handle the conditions of the current industry, probably isn't fit for work at all, certainly nothing above minimum wage, for some fundamental reason that is core to who they are or how they have been raised.

Your static IP address is exactly the same as that of the banned user 'Starscream'. Why is that?

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(17 Sep 2023, 10:43 am)MurdnunoC wrote Your static IP address is exactly the same as that of the banned user 'Starscream'. Why is that?

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They all belong to Jacob Rees-Mogg aswell.

(17 Sep 2023, 10:43 am)MurdnunoC wrote Your static IP address is exactly the same as that of the banned user 'Starscream'. Why is that?

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I knew this patter seemed familiar.

I mean, needing some sort of recognition or closure on a niche forum for bus enthusiasts is just sad really.

Clearly wouldn't pass a psychometric test for employment in any role within the bis industry.

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Probably won't last 5 minutes on the front line and would retreat back to the safety of Ivory Tower they came from at the first bit of trouble / difficulty and let the "lesser" workers deal with it.

As far as I know that static IP is shared by millions of home addresses. I'm on my mobile IP now, what does that reveal about me that you can potentially use to exclude unwelcome opinions from your platform?

(17 Sep 2023, 2:03 pm)Fleetmaster wrote As far as I know that static IP is shared by millions of home addresses. I'm on my mobile IP now, what does that reveal about me that you can potentially use to exclude unwelcome opinions from your platform?

Since you haven't denied it, I'm going to presume you and 'Starscream' are indeed the same person.

What that reveals about you is that you probably have more identities than Grant Shapps but lack the knowledge of how to conceal the deception.

You crave attention, you want your views to be heard, but probably lack the confidence to express them to anyone you consider to be superior to yourself. That's why you choose to spout your nonsense here. You think, for some reason, that you are better than us.

Sounds like an inferiority complex to me.



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(17 Sep 2023, 2:46 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Since you haven't denied it, I'm going to presume you and 'Starscream' are indeed the same person.

What that reveals about you is that you probably have more identities than Grant Shapps but lack the knowledge of how to conceal the deception.

You crave attention, you want your views to be heard, but probably lack the confidence to express them to anyone you consider to be superior to yourself. That's why you choose to spout your nonsense here. You think, for some reason, that you are better than us.

Sounds like an inferiority complex to me.



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I would have thought the denial was implicit in what I said.

I would be surprised if anyone here posts on a forum without wishing their views to be heard.

The rest says more about you than me to be honest.

(17 Sep 2023, 4:10 pm)Fleetmaster wrote I would have thought the denial was implicit in what I said.

I would be surprised if anyone here posts on a forum without wishing their views to be heard.

The rest says more about you than me to be honest.

I was expecting a more spirited retort than that.

The Sword Master of Melee Island would not be impressed.

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(17 Sep 2023, 4:10 pm)Fleetmaster wrote I would have thought the denial was implicit in what I said.

I would be surprised if anyone here posts on a forum without wishing their views to be heard.

The rest says more about you than me to be honest.

It's like having moody teens on this forum sometimes with all this bickering. I know conversations and opinions won't agree but bickering and digging at each other won't solve anything.... (this was not aimed at a specific individual).