(27 Dec 2023, 3:30 pm)Storx wrote The 317, has one of the highest subsidies, if not the highest, in North Tyneside. That's a fact.

That’s only because it’s a high PVR and has a long span of day, though.

The 32 (6 PVR) and 335/351/359 (5 PVR) are similarly beefy numbers, in the Newcastle/North Tyneside round.

A more accurate measure is subsidy per passenger, or subsidy per mile.

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(27 Dec 2023, 3:30 pm)Storx wrote The 317, has one of the highest subsidies, if not the highest, in North Tyneside. That's a fact.

Not condoning if was meant in the perceieved way........Unless he was making reference to the NT hospital link? Which exactly the 317 does.

Ironically, the 'old' 44 was established not only as a 'fast' Coast Road bus, but because of the link to NT Hospital for any residents living in the Hazlerigg / Wideopen area who fell under Northumbria NHS rather than Newcastle.

(27 Dec 2023, 4:22 pm)L469 YVK wrote Not condoning if was meant in the perceieved way........Unless he was making reference to the NT hospital link? Which exactly the 317 does.

Ironically, the 'old' 44 was established not only as a 'fast' Coast Road bus, but because of the link to NT Hospital for any residents living in the Hazlerigg / Wideopen area who fell under Northumbria NHS rather than Newcastle.

Having used the 44 when i live in the Rigg for 30 years i've never heard this.  Also wasn't the original route the 46 from polwarth drive to Whitley bay then they changed it to the 44 or did they both run at the same time.  I was under the impression it was to duplicate Busways of running " through" town?  it worked until they couldn't keep them to time and less people used the Whitley to Newcastle bit ( not sure why)

(27 Dec 2023, 3:52 pm)Dan wrote That’s only because it’s a high PVR and has a long span of day, though.

The 32 (6 PVR) and 335/351/359 (5 PVR) are similarly beefy numbers, in the Newcastle/North Tyneside round.

A more accurate measure is subsidy per passenger, or subsidy per mile.

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Aye of course, mind I'm surprised both that and the 19 are both still every 30 minutes on an evening and Sunday. I'm all for increased frequencies but when there's routes like the 351 with no bus service at all in Briardene etc, it seems a bit wrong.

The 19, in particular, shorts always carry fresh air most the time, never mind at night whenever I see them.

It's even more bizarre that the 57A extension randomly still exists so there's actually more capacity between Whitley Bay -> North Shields via North Tyneside Hospital in an evening and Sundays.

Re 317

If they are fully funded nexus secured services surely they should go to as many bus hubs as possible eg Wallsend it goes as a loop and omits Wallsend bus hub surely it would make more sense to force it to go so it would connect with the metro?

(27 Dec 2023, 7:35 pm)DaveFromUpNorth wrote Re 317

If they are fully funded nexus secured services surely they should go to as many bus hubs as possible eg Wallsend it goes as a loop and omits Wallsend bus hub surely it would make more sense to force it to go so it would connect with the metro?

It used to serve the Metro station but Nexus removed it due to passenger requests to serve the Forum apparently.

(27 Dec 2023, 4:56 pm)Rob44 wrote Having used the 44 when i live in the Rigg for 30 years i've never heard this.  Also wasn't the original route the 46 from polwarth drive to Whitley bay then they changed it to the 44 or did they both run at the same time.  I was under the impression it was to duplicate Busways of running " through" town?  it worked until they couldn't keep them to time and less people used the Whitley to Newcastle bit ( not sure why)

I think by that time, the New York area had an improved offering to Newcastle with the 75 & 309. Plus with timekeeping issues, people would just catch the more frequent 308. Not forgetting that the demise of the 44 also came at the same time as the recession.

(23 Dec 2023, 10:05 pm)Storx wrote The 317 is one of the worst subsidies going. I can't remember how much it gets off the top of my head but it's in the millions and that's including Stagecoach taking risk.

It's not doing well from a tax payer point of view, it's no wonder Stagecoach like it, it'll be one of their most profitable routes. If it was doing well, it would be commercial. There's also a nice shiny bus station where people could interchange (if needed).

The 18/Q3 is a severe funding issue aswell, duplicating each other for 2 mile or so.

How do you know this? I was under the impression that it was a normal contract and Stagecoach were the lowest bidder just like any other...

(31 Dec 2023, 10:24 am)logidoodah wrote How do you know this? I was under the impression that it was a normal contract and Stagecoach were the lowest bidder just like any other...

Stagecoach keep the fares dont they?  That why you couldn't use a nexus issued ticket from the ferry on the nexus secured service 317 up to the Metro at N Sheilds/

(31 Dec 2023, 10:24 am)logidoodah wrote How do you know this? I was under the impression that it was a normal contract and Stagecoach were the lowest bidder just like any other...

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/s...ng-2383925 - It's on there.

The codes will have specific words, I believe, these are the meaning of them - not 100% sure on the M but assume it means that:

First Letter
D - De minimis - Directly awarded
M - MEAT (Most Economically Advantageous Tender)? - Awarded through tender

Second Letter
W - Works service - Assume a resource tender
S - (Minimum) Subsidy - The difference between fare revenue and making a profit, they keep fares.
C - (Minimum) Cost - Fixed cost, Nexus gets fares

Just noted it's slightly less than a million but £600k+ a year, give or take plus fares it's quite a lucrative contract.

https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/tendering/indepth-0 - There's an article explaining all those better.

(31 Dec 2023, 10:44 am)Storx wrote https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/s...ng-2383925 - It's on there.

The codes will have specific words, I believe, these are the meaning of them - not 100% sure on the M but assume it means that:

First Letter
D - De minimis - Directly awarded
M - MEAT (Most Economically Advantageous Tender)? - Awarded through tender

Second Letter
W - Works service - Assume a resource tender
S - (Minimum) Subsidy - The difference between fare revenue and making a profit, they keep fares.
C - (Minimum) Cost - Fixed cost, Nexus gets fares

Just noted it's slightly less than a million but £600k+ a year, give or take plus fares it's quite a lucrative contract.

https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/tendering/indepth-0 - There's an article explaining all those better.

DC - de-minimis cost (directly awarded, Nexus keeps revenue)
DS - de-minimis subsidy (directly awarded, operator keeps revenue)
MC - minimum cost (tendered, Nexus keeps revenue)
MS - minimum subsidy (tendered, operator takes revenue risk and keeps revenue).
MW - Miscellaneous Works


In broad numbers (regardless of operator), the gross price of 1 PVR on an all-day tender is around £200k.

So, on the 317 (which is 5 PVR), Stagecoach will be assuming there is around £400k revenue in addition to the £600k net subsidy.

In revenue terms, it’s a meaty contract - but it won’t be the huge money spinner that you think it is.


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(31 Dec 2023, 11:13 am)Dan wrote DC - de-minimis cost (directly awarded, Nexus keeps revenue)
DS - de-minimis subsidy (directly awarded, operator keeps revenue)
MC - minimum cost (tendered, Nexus keeps revenue)
MS - minimum subsidy (tendered, operator takes revenue risk and keeps revenue).
MW - Miscellaneous Works


In broad numbers (regardless of operator), the gross price of 1 PVR on an all-day tender is around £200k.

So, on the 317 (which is 5 PVR), Stagecoach will be assuming there is around £400k revenue in addition to the £600k net subsidy.

In revenue terms, it’s a meaty contract - but it won’t be the huge money spinner that you think it is.


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Thanks for that so was technically right with the terms but got the terminology wrong.

Surprised the revenue is only £400k, always seems reasonable loads at the North Shields to Whitley Bay end of the route, at least, whenever I've seen it. Unsure on the other side though, could carry fresh air for all I know on it's mystery tour around every estate going.

(31 Dec 2023, 11:48 am)Storx wrote Thanks for that so was technically right with the terms but got the terminology wrong.

Surprised the revenue is only £400k, always seems reasonable loads at the North Shields to Whitley Bay end of the route, at least, whenever I've seen it. Unsure on the other side though, could carry fresh air for all I know on it's mystery tour around every estate going.

It can be quite busy considering it's the only service for East Howdon, Willington Quay, Holy Cross etc.

Does vary quite a bit though. Sometimes can be a near full bus, and then others empty.

(31 Dec 2023, 12:38 pm)Thomas12 wrote It can be quite busy considering it's the only service for East Howdon, Willington Quay, Holy Cross etc.

Does vary quite a bit though. Sometimes can be a near full bus, and then others empty.

Aye it's similar on the other side where some are really busy but others less so. Never see it dead, unlike the short 19's - the long ones usually do alright though.

It takes such an obscure road now just doing everywhere and anywhere, bizarrely the short 19's are pointless now avoiding everywhere at the same time.

(31 Dec 2023, 4:05 pm)Storx wrote Aye it's similar on the other side where some are really busy but others less so. Never see it dead, unlike the short 19's - the long ones usually do alright though.

It takes such an obscure road now just doing everywhere and anywhere, bizarrely the short 19's are pointless now avoiding everywhere at the same time.

Yeah agree with the short 19 services, they are a waste of money. 

Always thought the 317 could just serve the fish quay instead.

(31 Dec 2023, 6:19 pm)Thomas12 wrote Yeah agree with the short 19 services, they are a waste of money. 

Always thought the 317 could just serve the fish quay instead.

Can't disagree tbh, the 19 badly needs to work with the 57/57A instead imo as the integration is a problem atm. 

I know this is the wrong thread, but Stagecoach could always run it I suppose but I always think having the following would be better:

Day Times:
56: Every Hour, 57A route Ashington to Cramlington, 19 Route Cramlington to North Shields (PVR 3)
57: Every Hour, Current Route (PVR 2.5)
58: Every Hour, Cramlington -> Direct to N'land Business Park, current 57A to Whitley Bay (PVR 1.5)

Total PVR (7)

Evening:
56: Every Hour (PVR 3)
58: Every Hour, Extended to North Shields (PVR 2)

Total PVR (5)

It would open loads of new links like Ashington to Cobalt all day, East Cramlington gets an evening service, same with the new estate in Backworth etc.

It's the same as now PVR wise (actually less during the day, but offers so much more).

Daytimes:
57/57A: PVR 5
19: PVR 3

Evenings:
57A: PVR 3
19: PVR 2

They could always run a few extras, off school runs at peak times on the 56 (19) for Cobalt. 

I'd say just restore the old 333, using the current short 19 bus running from Tynemouth Beach to North Shields interchange, direct by Tanners Bank. It's ridiculous there's no service between the Ferry Terminal / North Shields Fish Quay and Tynemouth, two massive leisure links, every 30 minutes. I'd do that regardless to the above, it's better use of resources imo. Number it the F1 or something, to highlight the ferry link.

Totally agree with Fish Quay, but is the road open again, it was closed for some time?

22 Extended to Northumberland Park every 30 minutes

(12 Feb 2024, 7:10 pm)V514DFT wrote 22 Extended to Northumberland Park every 30 minutes

What would be the benefit of this when the 19 already covers this section? The 19 is dead most of the time anyway outside of the peaks.

The 22 links to places that would actually benefit from a service up that way, the 19 is dead because its barely changed since it first started in 2003, take from that what you will

(12 Feb 2024, 7:23 pm)Thomas12 wrote What would be the benefit of this when the 19 already covers this section? The 19 is dead most of the time anyway outside of the peaks.

In fairness you could drop the 19 to hourly, and use the resource saved to extend all the 22 buses through to Northumberland Park instead. The short 19's are a complete waste of space.

It would be a handy interchange for the railway aswell say for Ashington / Blyth / Bedlington to Wallsend for example.

Once the railway line opened and I needed to go to Wallsend or whatever, I'd be open to it.

Suggestion for Newcastle services 30/35:-

30:-
Extension from Fawdon terminus to Fawdon Church via Hauxley Drive (bus gate?), on to Kingston Park Rd, Wansbeck Rd creating a loop at Jubilee Rd junction. Could be renumbered 30/30A to work clockwise/anti-clockwise.

35:-
From Salters Road, direct along Kenton Road (omit Welford Ave), normal route Fawdon Lane, Red House Farm, Kingston Park Road before turning on to Broadway West & Great North Rd serving Hollywood Ave (X46 can be removed?) and rejoining normal route at Gosforth High St. Renumbered 35/35A to work clockwise/anti-clockwise.

Disclaimer! I've no idea on timings!

(13 Feb 2024, 12:58 pm)thw1008 wrote Suggestion for Newcastle services 30/35:-

30:-
Extension from Fawdon terminus to Fawdon Church via Hauxley Drive (bus gate?), on to Kingston Park Rd, Wansbeck Rd creating a loop at Jubilee Rd junction. Could be renumbered 30/30A to work clockwise/anti-clockwise.

35:-
From Salters Road, direct along Kenton Road (omit Welford Ave), normal route Fawdon Lane, Red House Farm, Kingston Park Road before turning on to Broadway West & Great North Rd serving Hollywood Ave (X46 can be removed?) and rejoining normal route at Gosforth High St. Renumbered 35/35A to work clockwise/anti-clockwise.

Disclaimer! I've no idea on timings!

Interesting idea but the X46 is needed for the estate further North. Personally, if using commercial services in that area I'd look at changing the 10/11 and creating a loop in the Fawdon area (yellow below) and you could just pull the 35 out the area completely. Once you've done that have the 35 every 30 minutes and splitting it at Broadway with one every hour heading West to Redhouse and the other heading North to Featherstone Park (green below). The blue being for reference of the 30/31. Maybe number them 34/35.

Would serve everything bar the odd missing link to Fawdon to Gosforth but I'd doubt it would be the end of the world and there's alternative services in walking distance anyway.

(13 Feb 2024, 2:17 pm)Storx wrote Interesting idea but the X46 is needed for the estate further North.

Apologies when I meant the X46 could be removed I meant just to remove the Hollywood Avenue leg, not the full route

I seem to remember Stagecoach trialling a no.30 night bus which done a loop of Jesmond/Fawdon/Kenton but it never caught on. Or rather the night bus idea didn't catch on

(13 Feb 2024, 4:51 pm)thw1008 wrote Apologies when I meant the X46 could be removed I meant just to remove the Hollywood Avenue leg, not the full route

I seem to remember Stagecoach trialling a no.30 night bus which done a loop of Jesmond/Fawdon/Kenton but it never caught on. Or rather the night bus idea didn't catch on

Get you now, they really need to get arid of that service, waste of time having an express bus to serve two housing estates.

Yeah I think they did, mind they didn't give them much of a chance tbh. Shame really as Newcastle is really lacking in night buses, in general for the size of the place.

(13 Feb 2024, 4:51 pm)thw1008 wrote Apologies when I meant the X46 could be removed I meant just to remove the Hollywood Avenue leg, not the full route

I seem to remember Stagecoach trialling a no.30 night bus which done a loop of Jesmond/Fawdon/Kenton but it never caught on. Or rather the night bus idea didn't catch on

The problem with those night-services, and indeed a lot of other new routes, is that they're not given enough time to generate enough custom to become profitable. When starting a new business, most analysts and commentators agree that it should take two to three years to become profitable. For some reason, bus companies think they're immune to this premise and expect new ventures to turn a profit almost immediately hence why new, experimental, services are withdrawn after a short period. While I understand the reluctance to throw resource at something not generating revenue, things have to be given a chance to do so. New customers/passengers aren't immediately going to flock to a service without it being established first.

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Hartlepool services

1 As it currently is but reduced to every 30 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime and every 60 Minutes Sundays. Will no longer serve Warrior Park and some Journeys will extend to Middleheaven for Middlesbrough College or Riverside Stadium on Matchdays. In Seaton Carew will operate Via Elizabeth Way to Bus Station. Will also once again serve Hartlepool Marina instead of Morrisons and Mill House.

1A Will operate every 30 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime and every 60 minutes on Sundays. Will operate current service 1 route from Town Centre to University Hospital then Wiltshire Way High Tunstall. Both services will revert to former loop around High Tunstall. Will operate Service 1 route between Town Centre and Seaton Carew terminating at Bus Station.
This still gives a combined 15 minutes service between High Tunstall, Teesbay Retail Park and Seaton Carew on Monday - Saturday daytimes and every 30 minutes on Sundays. Both services will interwork.

New Service 1B. Will operate Monday to Sunday Evenings and early morning Monday - Friday. Will operate from High Tunstall to University hospital via 1A Route and from Hospital to Seaton Carew along service 1 route.

If at any point in future Teesbay Retail Park was giving a new bus stop on the car services would serve it.

New Service 2 Bishop Cuthbert - Seaton Carew. will operate current service 3 route from Bishop Cuthbert to Middleton Road then operate via Marina and Interchange to Town Centre then service 1 route to Elizabeth Way junction then operation to Seaton Carew Bus Station via Station Lane and The Front.
Service will be every 30 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime and every 60 minutes on Sundays.

This will mean a service of around every 10 minutes between Hartlepool Town Centre and Teesbay Retail Park on Monday - Saturday daytime and every 20 minutes on Sunday daytimes.

Services 3 will continue to run Current route from Bishop Cuthbert to Owton Manor. will return to a 30 minute service on Monday - Saturday daytime. Will no longer serve South Fens though and instead will terminate at Saint Patrick’s shops.
Service 3A will run every 60 minutes during Monday - Friday daytimes during school term times only and will operate current route from Saint Patrick’s - Town Centre then serving Asda and Maritime Avenue. Weekends and School holidays will operate as service 15. most Journeys will interwork with service 8.

New service 4 Clavering Estate - West Park will operate every 60 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime via Hart Station, Raby Road, Millbank Road, Marina, Interchange then Grange Road to Ward Jackson park and West Park loop. This will open up a new service from Hartlepool Town Centre to Ward Jackson Park.

Service 5 Headland - Clavering Estate via Hart Station will interwork with service 4 at Clavering and operate every 30 minutes reopening connections from Headland to West View

Service 6 retimed to every 15 minutes Monday - Saturday daytimes and every 20 minutes on Sundays with every 30 minutes on evenings. All journeys now serving South Fens and will continue to interwork with service 7.

Service 7 Retimed to every 15 Minutes Monday - Saturday daytimes. Every 20 minutes Sunday daytime. Every 30 minutes evenings. Some Journeys now serving interchange.

New service 8 Owton Manor - Throston Grange. via Stockton Road, Town Centre, Marina and University Hospital. This service opens up new connections between Owton Manor, Rossmere and the University Hospital.

Service 12 Headland - Seaton Carew. via West View, University Hospital, Town Centre, Tesco and Warrior Park. Monday - Saturday every 20 minutes, every 60 minutes Evenings and Sundays.

Service 15 Maritime Avenue - Seaton Carew. Will operate service 3A route from Marina to Owton Manor then operate via Owton Manor Lane and Seaton Lane to Seaton Carew Bus Station. Every 60 minutes ( Monday - Friday daytime School holidays only ) evenings 60 minutes and Sundays 60 minutes.

Just a few ideas I had to reopen some connections in the town that people want.

(22 Feb 2024, 10:28 pm)col87 wrote Hartlepool services

1 As it currently is but reduced to every 30 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime and every 60 Minutes Sundays. Will no longer serve Warrior Park and some Journeys will extend to Middleheaven for Middlesbrough College or Riverside Stadium on Matchdays.  In Seaton Carew will operate Via Elizabeth Way to Bus Station.  Will also once again serve Hartlepool Marina instead of Morrisons and Mill House. 

1A Will operate every 30 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime and every 60 minutes on Sundays.  Will operate current service 1 route from Town Centre to University Hospital then Wiltshire Way High Tunstall. Both services will revert to former loop around High Tunstall.  Will operate Service 1 route between Town Centre and Seaton Carew terminating at Bus Station.
This still gives a combined 15 minutes service between High Tunstall, Teesbay Retail Park and Seaton Carew on Monday - Saturday daytimes and every 30 minutes on Sundays.  Both services will interwork. 

New Service 1B.  Will operate Monday to Sunday Evenings and early morning Monday - Friday. Will operate from High Tunstall to University hospital via 1A Route and from Hospital to Seaton Carew along service 1 route. 

If at any point in future Teesbay Retail Park was giving a new bus stop on the car services would serve it. 

New Service 2 Bishop Cuthbert - Seaton Carew.  will operate current service 3 route from Bishop Cuthbert to Middleton Road then operate via Marina and Interchange to Town Centre then service 1  route to Elizabeth Way junction then operation to Seaton Carew Bus Station via Station Lane and The Front. 
Service will be every 30 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime and every 60 minutes on Sundays.

This will mean a service of around every 10 minutes between Hartlepool Town Centre and Teesbay Retail Park on Monday - Saturday daytime and every 20 minutes on Sunday daytimes. 

Services 3 will continue to run Current route from Bishop Cuthbert to Owton Manor. will return to a 30 minute service on Monday -  Saturday daytime.  Will no longer serve South Fens though and instead will terminate at Saint Patrick’s shops. 
Service 3A will run every 60 minutes during Monday - Friday daytimes during school term times only and will operate current route from Saint Patrick’s - Town Centre then serving Asda and Maritime Avenue.  Weekends and School holidays will operate as service 15.  most  Journeys will interwork with service 8.

New service 4 Clavering Estate - West Park will operate every 60 minutes Monday - Saturday daytime via Hart Station, Raby Road, Millbank Road, Marina, Interchange then Grange Road to Ward Jackson park and West Park loop.  This will open up a new service from Hartlepool Town Centre to Ward Jackson Park. 

Service 5 Headland - Clavering Estate via Hart Station will interwork with service 4 at Clavering and operate every 30 minutes reopening connections from Headland to West View 

Service 6 retimed  to every 15 minutes Monday - Saturday daytimes and every 20 minutes on Sundays with every 30 minutes on evenings.  All journeys now serving South Fens and will continue to interwork with service 7.

Service 7  Retimed to every 15 Minutes Monday - Saturday daytimes. Every 20 minutes Sunday daytime.  Every 30 minutes evenings. Some Journeys now serving interchange. 

New service 8 Owton Manor - Throston Grange. via Stockton Road, Town Centre, Marina and University Hospital.  This service opens up new connections between Owton Manor, Rossmere and the University Hospital. 

Service 12 Headland - Seaton Carew. via West View, University Hospital, Town Centre, Tesco and Warrior Park.  Monday - Saturday every 20 minutes, every 60 minutes Evenings and Sundays. 

Service 15 Maritime Avenue - Seaton Carew.  Will operate service 3A route from Marina to Owton Manor then operate via Owton Manor Lane and Seaton Lane to Seaton Carew Bus Station.  Every 60 minutes  ( Monday - Friday daytime School holidays only ) evenings 60 minutes and Sundays 60 minutes. 

Just a few ideas I had to reopen some connections in the town that people want.

I like the Service 12 . I know it existed pre Stagecoach days .

(31 Dec 2023, 6:19 pm)Thomas12 wrote Yeah agree with the short 19 services, they are a waste of money. 

Always thought the 317 could just serve the fish quay instead.

That's cos GCT are dogshit. The 19s used to he very reliable and on time. Now GCT have taken over they've steered all the customers away. Better yet, they've changed the timings which is now harder to memorise without even telling a soul.

Would absolutely never happen at all in a million years, its a massive reach but I've thought of a cool route, just thinking of bus spotters instead of actual customers lol

Merge Stagecoach 18 with GNE 19 and 317 to operate a giant loop service

Clockwise trips would continue to run as 317 and anticlockwise trips to run as 318, also operating via Monkseaton to connect Whitley Bay with Northumberland Park. To connect the 18 with the 317, either operate it the former route to Wallsend or just the 12 route.

Cramlington to North Shields 19 trips would still run as of now, as a Service 319.

Evening trips on all services would run as normal, however I'm not too sure what to do about the numbering. 317 could operate from Whitley Bay to Wallsend as the 317, and the returning trip as a 318 maybe? Then evening 18 trips could stay as the 18 (similar to the 54 and 354).