(05 Jun 2023, 6:11 pm)RobinHood wrote Yeah, bus will rarely compete with the private car. Doesn't matter how good the offer is, the convenience of the car will always win.

Would take many years/generational shift to change that perception (or political mindset to prevent cars from getting close to these key areas, which in itself would be political suicide).

Sure, with millions to throw at huge frequency increases and new services to try and change that perception, success may be found eventually, but I don't think any commercial public transport operator has that kind of warchest to revert to in the hope it may be successful eventually.

The whole preventing cars thing can't and won't work imo. 
Apart from it being political suicide, there's no guarantee that people will make the modal switch. 
Even if a proportion do, there's probably not enough of them to make it viable. 

As for the third point you make, operators have had more than enough time to adapt their model and encourage people to make the switch. 
They've not done much else, other than a token gesture and in the case of Skelton, given up the ghost of that hourly service, having made it less attractive than it was - by making journeys longer, slower and inevitably delayed due to the interworking patterns introduced.
They've done all of those just as the place is getting bigger and more popular. Just as more houses are thrown up at various points on its route.
Long-term commercial naievety? Ignorance? Not sure what label I would attach to it to be honest, but it's clearly not working for passengers or the operators.

Skelton just being one example of many. 

We keep hearing stories of covid getting the blame or ENCTS reductions having an impact. 
I've yet to see any operator demonstrate effective ownership or implementation of any policy that has grown numbers or revenue.
I have seen strategies that make travelling less attractive, revenue streams being cut, routes and fleet sizes being reduced though.

(05 Jun 2023, 12:41 pm)Andreos1 wrote I don't think it's anything more than being unable to replace life expired (or soon to be) vehicles whilst reducing overheads at the expense of revenue.

How else can a thriving, growing community such as Saltburn, with it's schools (that doesn't have scholars provision), beaches etc end up losing out?
Unless of course, the network isn't meeting the needs of the population or the people travelling for work or pleasure?

Throw in the over-flowing car-parks and expanding offer in Skelton and it's pretty obvious there's clearly something amiss.

Saltburn has trains which are quite cheap aswell as far as I'm aware include the new TPE extensions and is an actual central station believe it's £6 or so return off peak, it's 3x quicker aswell.

You'd be mad to use the bus there unless you need to go to some random place inbetween which it doesn't do. Imo the bigger question is why is the need for the X2/X3/X4 all duplicating a rail network and serving absolutely nothing inbetween like Cleveland Retail Park and Eston Tesco where no doubt some people shop.

No doubt it's why the cuts are coming as the only people doing that will be pensioners using their bus passes as it's free.

(05 Jun 2023, 8:06 pm)Storx wrote Saltburn has trains which are quite cheap aswell as far as I'm aware include the new TPE extensions and is an actual central station believe it's £6 or so return off peak, it's 3x quicker aswell.

You'd be mad to use the bus there unless you need to go to some random place inbetween which it doesn't do. Imo the bigger question is why is the need for the X2/X3/X4 all duplicating a rail network and serving absolutely nothing inbetween like Cleveland Retail Park and Eston Tesco where no doubt some people shop. 

No doubt it's why the cuts are coming as the only people doing that will be pensioners using their bus passes as it's free.

You've got to remember that there's a population of people living and working beyond Saltburn and the wonders of the railway line. 

Brotton, Loftus, Skelton - all not connected to the rail network and with a population that won't and don't need to travel by train unless they're off somewhere exotic like York. 

Not sure that Cleveland Retail Park or Eston Tesco are that much of an appeal for anyone in East Cleveland either.
Particularly when you pass an Asda, Skelton retail park, Morrisons and Tesco to get to any of those places (rail, road or bus).
With Guisborough just a few minutes west.

(05 Jun 2023, 8:14 pm)Andreos1 wrote You've got to remember that there's a population of people living and working beyond Saltburn and the wonders of the railway line. 

Brotton, Loftus, Skelton - all not connected to the rail network and with a population that won't and don't need to travel by train unless they're off somewhere exotic like York. 

Not sure that Cleveland Retail Park or Eston Tesco are that much of an appeal for anyone in East Cleveland either.
Particularly when you pass an Asda, Skelton retail park, Morrisons and Tesco to get to any of those places (rail, road or bus).
With Guisborough just a few minutes west.

Aye no arguments, but surely a proper express for them would be the answer rather than going on a magical mystery tour around Saltburn and Redcar, two places they probably don't want to be at either. The X3/X3A in particular is one hell of a magical mystery tour of an express and has little purpose to the West side, it's no wonder it's struggling imo as it just duplicates the X4 or 5 but longer, long distance.

There's absolutely no need for the X3/X3A to go West of Marske, it'd arguably be better bolted onto the end of the 81. There's no lost links bar the 1 small village South of Skelton. Least then it might have more a purpose.

Something like - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.53861...?entry=ttu

It does everything the X3/X3A does for East Cleveland and is more useful with the X2/X3 terminating at New Marske / Marske instead.

(05 Jun 2023, 8:55 pm)Storx wrote Aye no arguments, but surely a proper express for them would be the answer rather than going on a magical mystery tour around Saltburn and Redcar, two places they probably don't want to be at either. The X3/X3A in particular is one hell of a magical mystery tour of an express and has little purpose to the West side, it's no wonder it's struggling imo as it just duplicates the X4 or 5 but longer, long distance.

There's absolutely no need for the X3/X3A to go West of Marske, it'd arguably be better bolted onto the end of the 81. There's no lost links bar the 1 small village South of Skelton. Least then it might have more a purpose.

Something like - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.52683...?entry=ttu

It does everything the X3/X3A does for East Cleveland and is more useful with the X2/X3 terminating at New Marske / Marske instead.

I've made points previously about the X3/X3A and the route it takes between Redcar and Marske.
It's painful.
Not sure how much time the Dormanstown diversion added to the timetable of either service, but it seems to take a lot longer than it did when bypassing it. 

Neither of those things make the service any more attractive for those using the service other than locally in Redcar.
They've potentially put people off using the service under the guise of saving themselves money or reducing overheads. 

Throw in the 15min clock face timetable that the X3 series and X4 had, versus what they have now (timetabled to run just a few mins apart on common sections in some cases) and you begin to wonder at the logic and decision making.
Then look at how closely the 5 and X3A run together in Brotton...

There's no doubt the X3A provides useful, important links. It will never succeed under it's current guise and I'd be interested to see any knock-on effect with the X3.

Some places are going from 4 buses an hour to 3.
Others are going from 2 to 1.
Not conducive to turning up and going. You've shared your own thoughts on hourly services...

(05 Jun 2023, 9:13 pm)Andreos1 wrote I've made points previously about the X3/X3A and the route it takes between Redcar and Marske.
It's painful.
Not sure how much time the Dormanstown diversion added to the timetable of either service, but it seems to take a lot longer than it did when bypassing it. 

Neither of those things make the service any more attractive for those using the service other than locally in Redcar.
They've potentially put people off using the service under the guise of saving themselves money or reducing overheads. 

Throw in the 15min clock face timetable that the X3 series and X4 had, versus what they have now (timetabled to run just a few mins apart on common sections in some cases) and you begin to wonder at the logic and decision making.
Then look at how closely the 5 and X3A run together in Brotton...

There's no doubt the X3A provides useful, important links. It will never succeed under it's current guise and I'd be interested to see any knock-on effect with the X3.

Some places are going from 4 buses an hour to 3.
Others are going from 2 to 1.
Not conducive to turning up and going. You've shared your own thoughts on hourly services...

Aye fair points and can't disagree especially on 1 BPH which is a big no no and unusable.

It's one of those areas that kind of annoys me where there's an express but no slow version.

Imo something like the below would improve stuff with 4 simple routes, 2 fast and 2 slow and it links everything up that people want all 30 minutes.



Purple: X4 - Limited Stop, Current route omitting Dormanstown.
Blue: 4 - All Stop, 62 from Middlesbrough to Redcar, merge of 62/X3 from Redcar to Marske, then X3 through to Brotton

Orange: X5 - Limited Stop, Middlesbrough to Guisborough, then quick to Easington via Livington Mines
Pink: 5 - All Stops, Middlesbrough to Guisborough, serve the estates of Guisborough then extend to Skelton via everywhere.

All Every 30 Minutes Day Times, All Hourly on a Sunday / Evening.
X4/X5, Combine for 15 minute Middlesbrough to Brotton / Loftus service.

62, 5A - Withdrawn

The new 5/5A is a complete farce aswell and would fix buses running on top of each other. Everything is linked up as far as I'm aware and heck if the 4 is too busy up the frequency and actually try and grow something for once.

The 5A is cancelled

(05 Jun 2023, 8:06 pm)Storx wrote Saltburn has trains which are quite cheap aswell as far as I'm aware include the new TPE extensions and is an actual central station believe it's £6 or so return off peak, it's 3x quicker aswell.

You'd be mad to use the bus there unless you need to go to some random place inbetween which it doesn't do. Imo the bigger question is why is the need for the X2/X3/X4 all duplicating a rail network and serving absolutely nothing inbetween like Cleveland Retail Park and Eston Tesco where no doubt some people shop.

No doubt it's why the cuts are coming as the only people doing that will be pensioners using their bus passes as it's free.

That’s if TPE operate. Last week I was visiting friends in Yorkshire, one TPE cut short at Leeds and 2 cancelled, one of which was heading to Saltburn. I ended up paying an extra £12 for a single to Newcastle from York as the next TPE was 90 minutes later. To be fair I’ve had some compensation, just about covering the extra ticket I had to buy. LNER superb, Cross Country rammed and TPE a shambles that day. Can’t always rely on rail I’m afraid!

(06 Jun 2023, 9:34 am)V514DFT wrote The 5A is cancelled

It's not, just dropped to hourly so there's a weird 3 BPH interworking with the X93, which doesn't stop on half the stops, it's a right mess imo. Whether they'll have the 5 as every 20 minutes I'm not sure or 15 / 15 / 30 with the X93 doing the other 15 isn't very clear.

(06 Jun 2023, 9:54 am)RMF1254 wrote That’s if TPE operate. Last week I was visiting friends in Yorkshire, one TPE cut short at Leeds and 2 cancelled, one of which was heading to Saltburn. I ended up paying an extra £12 for a single to Newcastle from York as the next TPE was 90 minutes later. To be fair I’ve had some compensation, just about covering the extra ticket I had to buy. LNER superb, Cross Country rammed and TPE a shambles that day. Can’t always rely on rail I’m afraid!

Aye totally agreed, complete shambles aren't they? Least they have Northern with 2 TPH to fall back onto though luckily for them.

(06 Jun 2023, 10:16 am)Storx wrote It's not, just dropped to hourly so there's a weird 3 BPH interworking with the X93, which doesn't stop on half the stops, it's a right mess imo. Whether they'll have the 5 as every 20 minutes I'm not sure or 15 / 15 / 30 with the X93 doing the other 15 isn't very clear.

Journey planner confirms the departures from Middlesbrough will be xx05 and xx35 for the 5 and xx50 for the 5a - the X93 departs at xx20.

(06 Jun 2023, 10:28 am)Kuyoyo wrote Journey planner confirms the departures from Middlesbrough will be xx05 and xx35 for the 5 and xx50 for the 5a - the X93 departs at xx20.

Must admit it's messy for people using the intermediate stops having a 15 / 30 / 15 frequency for people along Cargo Fleet Lane. 

Not ideal filling up the X93 with short trippers either in the Summer either imo.

(06 Jun 2023, 1:36 pm)Storx wrote Must admit it's messy for people using the intermediate stops having a 15 / 30 / 15 frequency for people along Cargo Fleet Lane. 

Not ideal filling up the X93 with short trippers either in the Summer either imo.

To be fair most people affected in Guisborough would be going against the peak flow on the X93, morning towards Middlesbrough & afternoon back towards Guisborough


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(06 Jun 2023, 1:41 pm)tyresmoke wrote To be fair most people affected in Guisborough would be going against the peak flow on the X93, morning towards Middlesbrough & afternoon back towards Guisborough


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah that's a fair point actually. Does anyone know what the times are like from Guisborough as I assume it's going to be 10 / 20 / 15 / 15 since the X93 is quicker.

According to our local councilors, the service starts on Monday 10th July 2023. Just waiting to see if the route has been changed now that the X3A has been cancelled.

(27 Jun 2023, 1:35 pm)Michael Euston wrote According to our local councilors, the service starts on Monday 10th July 2023. Just waiting to see if the route has been changed now that the X3A has been cancelled.

Simon Clarke (is he a Sir or Lord now?) has been on about it, paying tribute to other local politicians for their efforts

https://www.facebook.com/100057792050083...sn=scwspmo

(27 Jun 2023, 8:29 pm)Andreos1 wrote Simon Clarke (is he a Sir or Lord now?) has been on about it, paying tribute to other local politicians for their efforts

https://www.facebook.com/100057792050083...sn=scwspmo

£389,500 per year. That is the cost to the public purse that Stagecoach have been awarded to operate Services 1/2.
Add to that, the cost of Tees Flex also running in the area, probably brings the East Cleveland share of TVCA support to over £1million per year.

Absolutely unbelievable (and frankly shameful volume of public spending being used for a bus service to link Liverton, Loftus Estates and Moorsholm basically).
Frankly not surprised with Arriva actions either learning this. Imagine if that funding was used to enhance the existing services already in situ!

(28 Jun 2023, 12:14 pm)RobinHood wrote £389,500 per year. That is the cost to the public purse that Stagecoach have been awarded to operate Services 1/2.
Add to that, the cost of Tees Flex also running in the area, probably brings the East Cleveland share of TVCA support to over £1million per year. 

Absolutely unbelievable (and frankly shameful volume of public spending being used for a bus service to link Liverton, Loftus Estates and Moorsholm basically).
Frankly not surprised with Arriva actions either learning this. Imagine if that funding was used to enhance the existing services already in situ!

Add the X3A/3 in to the mix going purely from a post shared by Jimmi.

I don't think anyone has come out of this with any grace.
ANE have clearly spat their dummy out.
Houchen, Clarke and the independent councilors are too busy patting each others backs to notice what the public really need and want.

(28 Jun 2023, 12:14 pm)RobinHood wrote £389,500 per year. That is the cost to the public purse that Stagecoach have been awarded to operate Services 1/2.
Add to that, the cost of Tees Flex also running in the area, probably brings the East Cleveland share of TVCA support to over £1million per year.

Absolutely unbelievable (and frankly shameful volume of public spending being used for a bus service to link Liverton, Loftus Estates and Moorsholm basically).
Frankly not surprised with Arriva actions either learning this. Imagine if that funding was used to enhance the existing services already in situ!

Imagine if they scrapped that service and used that money to continue funding these: https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/news/counci...our-talks/ instead.

Means it would only cost the tax payer which they like to highlight £40k instead and further highlights how much it is a real waste of money. Heck they could've said we want you to do this with the 3/X3/X3A to cover the thing, rather than duplicating it...

Oh and aren't GoNorthEast nice accepting the concessionary offer with all those hundreds, I mean loads, I mean 1 service that serves the area.

In principle I like the idea of a service connecting the villages in East Cleveland with Asda and Saltburn, and I tried out the bus the other day.

But I can't see it being a success, I'd certainly tweak the route quite a bit. And having 20 minutes layover at Loftus is too much.

(23 Jul 2023, 9:01 am)tvd wrote In principle I like the idea of a service connecting the villages in East Cleveland with Asda and Saltburn, and I tried out the bus the other day.

But I can't see it being a success, I'd certainly tweak the route quite a bit.  And having 20 minutes layover at Loftus is too much.

I suspect TeesFlex will be withdrawn after the funding ends and they will retain these circular services, but it will require long term consistent funding I expect. Never be commercial in a million years.

I personally think it's a complete waste of tax payers money imo, the money should be spent elsewhere ie extending the X3 instead. Just give Arriva an ultimatum, we'll fund the Sunday service if you extend these at other times, decline it then put the 3 out to tender. I'm pretty certain what option they'll go for.

(23 Jul 2023, 1:00 pm)Storx wrote I personally think it's a complete waste of tax payers money imo, the money should be spent elsewhere ie extending the X3 instead. Just give Arriva an ultimatum, we'll fund the Sunday service if you extend these at other times, decline it then put the 3 out to tender. I'm pretty certain what option they'll go for.

I'm pretty sure Arriva would decline the offer of funding a one day a week service in favour of them running six other days at a loss.

Don't disagree with your point though, for what they are spending, they could have done much more if they worked with Arriva, but by all accounts, this was a local councillor pushing agenda that simply went to tender rather than understanding opportunities.

(23 Jul 2023, 5:29 pm)RobinHood wrote I'm pretty sure Arriva would decline the offer of funding a one day a week service in favour of them running six other days at a loss.

Don't disagree with your point though, for what they are spending, they could have done much more if they worked with Arriva, but by all accounts, this was a local councillor pushing agenda that simply went to tender rather than understanding opportunities.

Sorry wasn't clear there, I meant subsidise the extension on the end of the X3 rather than it been done commercially. It'll be cheaper overall anyway. 

But aye agreed, hopefully in the future they can work to come to something better rather than a rather infrequent 2 hourly service which isn't exactly ideal. I'm not sure what the timing difference is between getting to ASDA and leaving but 99% of people don't need that amount of time especially when the store doesn't have a cafe.

(23 Jul 2023, 6:08 pm)Storx wrote Sorry wasn't clear there, I meant subsidise the extension on the end of the X3 rather than it been done commercially. It'll be cheaper overall anyway. 

But aye agreed, hopefully in the future they can work to come to something better rather than a rather infrequent 2 hourly service which isn't exactly ideal. I'm not sure what the timing difference is between getting to ASDA and leaving but 99% of people don't need that amount of time especially when the store doesn't have a cafe.

Anyone coming from the Loftus direction to Skelton Asda has 1 hour 15 mins, which isn't too bad - I did it this morning and went to McDonalds and Home Bargains then Asda. Incidentally, Stagecoach send a car there to change drivers.

The route is more of an issue, I know the point is to serve places unserved by Arriva, but since it has plenty of layover time at one end I think it could use some of that time better. For example, it would have the time to start at Easington, go through Loftus High St to bank top, loop back round Westfield Estate then down towards Liverton Mines.

As things are, most of Loftus (all the regular bus stops) isn't served by this new service. Nor are Brotton or Skelton High streets.

Has anyone been using this since it come in to affect. I know when I have passed it, theres no body on board.

I've been on it a few times and seen a fair few people on there from time to time. I asked the drivers who have been operating the routes on how busy does it get. They said it never gets full but have been busy the last week due to school half term. Other times it can be empty or have 1 or 2 people.

One other driver said the service was meant to go through the high streets of the each village but Stagecoach were told they can't as it would compete with Arrivas Services 5 and X4.

(18 Feb 2024, 10:38 pm)Mike_98 wrote I've been on it a few times and seen a fair few people on there from time to time. I asked the drivers who have been operating the routes on how busy does it get. They said it never gets full but have been busy the last week due to school half term. Other times it can be empty or have 1 or 2 people.

One other driver said the service was meant to go through the high streets of the each village but Stagecoach were told they can't as it would compete with Arrivas Services 5 and X4.

Isn't that the point of 1986? Generate competition

(19 Feb 2024, 1:06 am)idiot wrote Isn't that the point of 1986? Generate competition

This isn't a commercial service, so TVCA likely don't want to create competition and end up with neither service being viable.

(19 Feb 2024, 7:32 am)RobinHood wrote This isn't a commercial service, so TVCA likely don't want to create competition and end up with neither service being viable.

True. Just a shame it had to miss out Charltons, Margrove Park, Boosbeck, Skelton Green, North Skelton, New Skelton and Easington. People from there would love a bus to Skelton Retail Park as the X3/X4/5 and 5A respectively don't stop outside any major shops to my memory. There is the 3 on a Sunday but most people would go on weekdays.

(19 Feb 2024, 1:06 am)idiot wrote Isn't that the point of 1986? Generate competition

Well that was the aim, but as we all know, it's very rare to actually see sustainable competition.