I think tbe big  concern with the possibility of majority of services terminating at Gateshead compared to 'years gone by' is, there is no longer the all day redline metro Pelaw to Benton.  At present you would be adding loads of passengers to already overloaded metro services, perhaps just for 1 or 2 stops, but id not want to go from havong a seat on a bus to the squash that is a busy metro.  Bring the Pealw to Benton extras back all day and it would be a consideration.

(07 May 2024, 1:33 pm)LVK 404L wrote I think tbe big  concern with the possibility of majority of services terminating at Gateshead compared to 'years gone by' is, there is no longer the all day redline metro Pelaw to Benton.  At present you would be adding loads of passengers to already overloaded metro services, perhaps just for 1 or 2 stops, but id not want to go from havong a seat on a bus to the squash that is a busy metro.  Bring the Pealw to Benton extras back all day and it would be a consideration.

I think that might be possible with the complete set of new trains, but I do think that terminating all services at Gateshead is silly. The 56/57/58 could be a good example, terminate the 57 at Gateshead, but the 56/58 continue to Newcastle for people to have the choice to go straight into Newcastle when those services overlap.

(07 May 2024, 12:51 pm)Rob44 wrote You'll be surprised but I think termination buses at gateshead is a good idea ( when metro allows this). 

Take the orbit 51 and 52 circle of gateshead.  As far back as i can remember this terminated at Gateshead. Had the joy of me and the ex crocodile first house in Halow green so used this to get to town, either by bus and bus or bus and metro. ( i was more annoyed that no one , driver or other advtised you could get a through ticket) Never bother me.  Then GNE change it to the q1 q2 when the "saved the buses on the quay side" and it ment direct route to Town.  Then they've changed it back again and have to say ( and i do get either 51 or 52 often) i've never heard anyone moan.

Also take the29, Used to run kibblesworth to gateshead then when changed went to town. Loads got off at gateshead when i used it and waited for a bus to town and never moaned. In fact the biggest moans were there was no coffee shop on that side of the bus station and that they would like the buses to town to go to different area like west road for discovery museum, direct to big market/central station. and northern area of town  Handcock and uni's/.  They also moaned more when it stop at market street rather than Eldon Sq

I think you would have the obvoius moans if most buest from the south and east terminated at Gateshead ( some are on here) but people would get used to it and it would help the buses that continued into town get there.

See for me the bigger problem is going the opposite way. For someone like me if I say needed to go to Ouston and it terminated at Gateshead, I'd have to get a bus to Newcastle, hop on a Metro for 3 stops and hope to god the first bus isn't late otherwise I'm stuck in Gateshead for potentially 25 minutes with nothing to do. It's impossible to time and it turns frustrating.

I'm all for integration but that's just poor integration. If I was going to Concord say and I decided to get a bus to a Metro, travel all the way through to Heworth then had to wait there it would be kind of frustrating but the journey time is short on the last bus so that's fine, the alternative would be sitting on the 56 going around the world and even with the wait the timings would be similar. 

imo. places like Ouston and Kibblesworth shouldn't have a bus going anywhere near Newcastle and Gateshead and should be interchanging to a train at somewhere like Birtley if they want to go to Newcastle, instead we literally have a railway that flies straight through without a stop which they both cross. I know someone will say 'the station would be in the middle of nowhere' but that's why buses connect you to it. Like personally if I lived on the 25 route, I'd much much rather have a bus every 15 minutes to a 20 minute train than an hourly bus which only runs to 6pm or so anyway. Start connecting the likes of the 82 to it and people from Rickleton might start using it and that might suddenly become a nice little corridor.

If you built near it Station Lane it's ideal for regeneration of that area aswell as it's just wasteland currently. Instead we'll just build houses in the middle of nowhere with no public transport as usual.

(07 May 2024, 2:40 pm)Storx wrote See for me the bigger problem is going the opposite way. For someone like me if I say needed to go to Ouston and it terminated at Gateshead, I'd have to get a bus to Newcastle, hop on a Metro for 3 stops and hope to god the first bus isn't late otherwise I'm stuck in Gateshead for potentially 25 minutes with nothing to do. It's impossible to time and it turns frustrating.

I'm all for integration but that's just poor integration. If I was going to Concord say and I decided to get a bus to a Metro, travel all the way through to Heworth then had to wait there it would be kind of frustrating but the journey time is short on the last bus so that's fine, the alternative would be sitting on the 56 going around the world and even with the wait the timings would be similar. 

imo. places like Ouston and Kibblesworth shouldn't have a bus going anywhere near Newcastle and Gateshead and should be interchanging to a train at somewhere like Birtley if they want to go to Newcastle, instead we literally have a railway that flies straight through without a stop which they both cross. I know someone will say 'the station would be in the middle of nowhere' but that's why buses connect you to it. Like personally if I lived on the 25 route, I'd much much rather have a bus every 15 minutes to a 20 minute train than an hourly bus which only runs to 6pm or so anyway. Start connecting the likes of the 82 to it and people from Rickleton might start using it and that might suddenly become a nice little corridor.

If you built near it Station Lane it's ideal for regeneration of that area aswell as it's just wasteland currently. Instead we'll just build houses in the middle of nowhere with no public transport as usual.

For every positive there's a negative and vice versa. On you trip to Ouston the bus bringing you into town could be made late from the 7 21'2 in a row trying to get around st mary's place and into eldon square.  You could get mugged by the beggers and there dogs in Haymarket bus station on your walk to Eldon Square.  The bus to ouston could be late due to all the arrive 308's around St marys place waiting to get into the haymarket.  OR you could get a bus from yours to Regent centre and metro to Gateshead and aviod Gossy high street or head the other way out of haymarket, pint in junction then nip on train to gateshead. I'm sure delays on north bound GNE buses most tof the time now is from LEAVING gateshead and getting to wherever they are going in Newcastle so chance are ( you would hope) that you bus to ouston from gateshead would be more reliable.

This ofcourse would free up more buses/drivers so cancelations would be fewer too?

As for the second last paragraph i'd be happy with a bus to the nearest station then jumping onto metro or bus. Thats what i do when I stay at the penthouse or when i stay next to kibby now anyway

Basically the current network needs nuked, and rebuilt from the ground up, currently its a 70's/80's take in a 2024 world, 40 years past its sell by date, its basically trying to flog a dead horse

The capacity just isn’t there to add local train stations on the East Coast Mainline. At best you might find somewhere for the hourly transpennine service to stop without causing too much of a time penalty, but that’s only hourly and no one would say that was acceptable as a ‘hub’ and besides, until the Leamside line is reopened (which would be a decade away even if it got approval), there are no alternatives for rerouting freight trains. So there will always be a need for buses to run through to Newcastle and I really don’t get the obsession on this forum for making a form of public transport even less attractive for the very people we need to encourage, car drivers. Too many enthusiasts think with their enthusiast head on and forget that Joe Public values ease of use over being forced to change modes for the benefit of nobody but the operators. Make it needlessly complicated and they just won’t bother at all, which is one reason why Go North East’s hub and spoke model has been such an unmitigated disaster.

(07 May 2024, 3:05 pm)V514DFT wrote Basically the current network needs nuked, and rebuilt from the ground up, currently its a 70's/80's take in a 2024 world, 40 years past its sell by date, its basically trying to flog a dead horse

This


Bring back 3 numbered bus routes so people know where bus is heading.  Used to love the 397 to hazelrigg and the 632 to see my grandparents on a weeked in winlaton!

(07 May 2024, 2:59 pm)Rob44 wrote For every positive there's a negative and vice versa. On you trip to Ouston the bus bringing you into town could be made late from the 7 21'2 in a row trying to get around st mary's place and into eldon square.  You could get mugged by the beggers and there dogs in Haymarket bus station on your walk to Eldon Square.  The bus to ouston could be late due to all the arrive 308's around St marys place waiting to get into the haymarket.  OR you could get a bus from yours to Regent centre and metro to Gateshead and aviod Gossy high street or head the other way out of haymarket, pint in junction then nip on train to gateshead. I'm sure delays on north bound GNE buses most tof the time now is from LEAVING gateshead and getting to wherever they are going in Newcastle so chance are ( you would hope) that you bus to ouston from gateshead would be more reliable.

This ofcourse would free up more buses/drivers so cancelations would be fewer too?

As for the second last paragraph i'd be happy with a bus to the nearest station then jumping onto metro or bus. Thats what i do when I stay at the penthouse or when i stay next to kibby now anyway

No Regent Centre link for me because of where I live, the state of the Arriva buses, that's the last place I'd like to be standing for 40 minutes while two buses are cancelled. 5 minutes is too long at the Regent Centre and that's something that needs sorting out asap regardless to anything tbh.

If there was bloody reasonable train service to Chester Le Street in the future I'd do Train -> Train -> Bus and travel backwards, if there was a decent service it would only be roughly 40 minutes or so with perfect connections. Obviously not an option as the train is 1 TP2H now.

(07 May 2024, 3:19 pm)markydh wrote The capacity just isn’t there to add local train stations on the East Coast Mainline. At best you might find somewhere for the hourly transpennine service to stop without causing too much of a time penalty, but that’s only hourly and no one would say that was acceptable as a ‘hub’ and besides, until the Leamside line is reopened (which would be a decade away even if it got approval), there are no alternatives for rerouting freight trains. So there will always be a need for buses to run through to Newcastle and I really don’t get the obsession on this forum for making a form of public transport even less attractive for the very people we need to encourage, car drivers. Too many enthusiasts think with their enthusiast head on and forget that Joe Public values ease of use over being forced to change modes for the benefit of nobody but the operators. Make it needlessly complicated and they just won’t bother at all, which is one reason why Go North East’s hub and spoke model has been such an unmitigated disaster.

The thing is though car users don't want to use buses full stop as they're seen as peasant travel. Trains are a total different kettle of fish as they're a much better standard and will beat the bus every time pretty much. Bus to bus hubs never work as it doesn't make sense at all hence GNE network's doesn't work.

Not to mention you can do local Park and Ride for someone to drive to, park up and get the train to Newcastle in 10 minutes, it's better than sitting on the 25 or 28 for 40 minutes going around the world.

There's already plans for a Metro line down that track, it's 4 track from CLS to Newcastle give or take so capacity wise some improvements shouldn't be too much of an issue, it's South of CLS where the problems start.

(07 May 2024, 4:51 pm)Storx wrote No Regent Centre link for me because of where I live, the state of the Arriva buses, that's the last place I'd like to be standing for 40 minutes while two buses are cancelled. 5 minutes is too long at the Regent Centre and that's something that needs sorting out asap regardless to anything tbh.

If there was bloody reasonable train service to Chester Le Street in the future I'd do Train -> Train -> Bus and travel backwards, if there was a decent service it would only be roughly 40 minutes or so with perfect connections. Obviously not an option as the train is 1 TP2H now.


The thing is though car users don't want to use buses full stop as they're seen as peasant travel. Trains are a total different kettle of fish as they're a much better standard and will beat the bus every time pretty much. Bus to bus hubs never work as it doesn't make sense at all hence GNE network's doesn't work.

Not to mention you can do local Park and Ride for someone to drive to, park up and get the train to Newcastle in 10 minutes, it's better than sitting on the 25 or 28 for 40 minutes going around the world.

There's already plans for a Metro line down that track, it's 4 track from CLS to Newcastle give or take so capacity wise some improvements shouldn't be too much of an issue, it's South of CLS where the problems start.

It isn’t four track from Chester le Street to Newcastle. It’s double track from Northallerton to Newcastle with a few passing places here and there. If you’re talking about the lines around Tyne Yard, well they aren’t of any use because there’s no direct route from Tyne Yard to Newcastle via the Tyne Valley line, so they’d still have to squeeze into the double track section between Tyne Yard and 
King Edward VII Bridge. The infrastructure just isn’t there. And to be honest even if you reinstate the north east chord to provide a through route from the freight only line passed Royal Mail to the Tyne Valley line, you’d still have the issue of limited capacity at Newcastle Central. You’d need the long talked about and never funded new platform on the south side opposite platform 7.

As for Leamside, the metro line would only extend as far as just west of Penshaw Monument, which is where the line from South Hylton used to connect with the Leamside line. For it to be of any use for freight, the Leamside line would need to continue southwards to where it connected with the ECML at Tursdale. Besides which, funding has not been approved for any metro extensions. Right now the only thing that has received funding is to put together a business case. That alone can take anything up to 2 or 3 years.

(07 May 2024, 6:23 pm)markydh wrote It isn’t four track from Chester le Street to Newcastle. It’s double track from Northallerton to Newcastle with a few passing places here and there. If you’re talking about the lines around Tyne Yard, well they aren’t of any use because there’s no direct route from Tyne Yard to Newcastle via the Tyne Valley line, so they’d still have to squeeze into the double track section between Tyne Yard and 
King Edward VII Bridge. The infrastructure just isn’t there. And to be honest even if you reinstate the north east chord to provide a through route from the freight only line passed Royal Mail to the Tyne Valley line, you’d still have the issue of limited capacity at Newcastle Central. You’d need the long talked about and never funded new platform on the south side opposite platform 7.

As for Leamside, the metro line would only extend as far as just west of Penshaw Monument, which is where the line from South Hylton used to connect with the Leamside line. For it to be of any use for freight, the Leamside line would need to continue southwards to where it connected with the ECML at Tursdale. Besides which, funding has not been approved for any metro extensions. Right now the only thing that has received funding is to put together a business case. That alone can take anything up to 2 or 3 years.

Yeah of course, wasn't suggesting it next week. There's plans to reopen the Bensham Curve though which will make it pretty much 3/4 track from Birtley to Newcastle. Of course it all needs funding but arguably if you want to improve public transport and actually get cars off the road, money like this needs to be spent including sorting out Newcastle Central.

Regardless to what anyone thinks, buses isn't the answer as they're too slow, use the same roads as cars and are unpleasant compared to a private car. Even if it was every 5 minutes outside someones front door most people wouldn't touch it with a barge pole and that's before even going into networking, ticketing and everything else wrong with them.

Obviously it's not in governments interests in the UK, so public transport will never improve outside of London. They'll just keep wasting it on pointless sticking plaster schemes and I'll eat a hat if the Metro ever gets beyond Washington, if it even manages to get there.

I know it's in the long term plans to have a CLS -> Birtley -> Teams -> Metro Centre -> Newcastle service, how the last bit works who only knows tbh.

everyone saying entirely rework the network, its all good saying that but how would it be done, and would it just happen over night or would it be a process aswell how do we know if these routes will actually make money

(07 May 2024, 7:21 pm)Unber43 wrote everyone saying entirely rework the network, its all good saying that but how would it be done, and would it just happen over night or would it be a process aswell how do we know if these routes will actually make money

As the new mayor said on the news tonight, it won't happen overnight and she will be pushing for improvements in the short term. But there should be plenty of data available if you get the right people involved to find a network which suits the needs of the 2020s and beyond.

Wonder depending on available technology, there'll be vehicle specifications for the contracts that also cover engine displacement?

I.e.....if a route is more than 20 miles and contains a certain percentage of driving at or above XX mph, then the vehicle must have a particular engine / power displacement for the route.

I think people are getting a tad over excited on what will happen here.

What we'll get
Some buses painted in a new livery running the existing routes, a few renumbering, some random routes reintroduced, new ticketing options and the same issues around the road network.

Integration with Metro won't work, it's a product of bygone era and no amount of pointing to how they do it on the continent will make a difference. People want convenience and they certainly don't want to spend time in Heworth, Gateshead, Pelaw, Four Lane Ends etc etc

(08 May 2024, 9:40 am)Ambassador wrote I think people are getting a tad over excited on what will happen here.

What we'll get
Some buses painted in a new livery running the existing routes, a few renumbering, some random routes reintroduced, new ticketing options and the same issues around the road network.

Integration with Metro won't work, it's a product of bygone era and no amount of pointing to how they do it on the continent will make a difference. People want convenience and they certainly don't want to spend time in Heworth, Gateshead, Pelaw, Four Lane Ends etc etc

Tbf I don't think anyone will expect anything to happen. I expect things to be worse with the clowns in charge.

well im expecting big things from kim. I just hope eveything is out in the open and when thing cant be done we are given honest answers.

As for integration not working well it works for people who get the 4 to heworth, the 51,52, 47 and x66 to gateshead so not sure how anyone ca say it does work when it does for these services, or are they all abandoned for the car? I've even seen numbers of customers jump off at heworth will me and head into the metro towards town....... they cant all be traveling to central or past haymarket??

(08 May 2024, 9:40 am)Ambassador wrote I think people are getting a tad over excited on what will happen here.

What we'll get
Some buses painted in a new livery running the existing routes, a few renumbering, some random routes reintroduced, new ticketing options and the same issues around the road network.

Integration with Metro won't work, it's a product of bygone era and no amount of pointing to how they do it on the continent will make a difference. People want convenience and they certainly don't want to spend time in Heworth, Gateshead, Pelaw, Four Lane Ends etc etc

See I disagree that integration is bad, I like the idea of a London type system with a Bus ticket for a zone or a Bus + Metro ticket. It's how I've always used it in southern South Shields, I'd get the X34 to Newcastle, or if I've just missed an X34, I'll get the bus to the Interchange and get a metro from there. I've done that all my life, ever since I was a kid, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one doing that. I think you'd be surprised how the system is actually used already.

(08 May 2024, 2:08 pm)deanmachine wrote See I disagree that integration is bad, I like the idea of a London type system with a Bus ticket for a zone or a Bus + Metro ticket. It's how I've always used it in southern South Shields, I'd get the X34 to Newcastle, or if I've just missed an X34, I'll get the bus to the Interchange and get a metro from there. I've done that all my life, ever since I was a kid, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one doing that. I think you'd be surprised how the system is actually used already.

The 4 at Heworth and the buses towards the Regent Centre are quiet well used aswell to be fair. 

Personally I'd much rather have a 15 minute service to a nearest Metro stop pretty direct rather than an 30 minute or hourly bus service going round every nook and cranny. 

I do the same up here most the time changing at Northumberland Park or West Monkseaton rather than using the X7 as half the time I don't want to be anywhere near Haymarket. 

Just a shame the 57/57A runs on its own timetable lately including quite often early in an evening which is less than ideal when you've got a 8 minute interchange.

(08 May 2024, 2:08 pm)deanmachine wrote See I disagree that integration is bad, I like the idea of a London type system with a Bus ticket for a zone or a Bus + Metro ticket. It's how I've always used it in southern South Shields, I'd get the X34 to Newcastle, or if I've just missed an X34, I'll get the bus to the Interchange and get a metro from there. I've done that all my life, ever since I was a kid, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one doing that. I think you'd be surprised how the system is actually used already.

Thats what me and my "dad" did when my Brother and Sister lived in Marsden if he was feeling charitable and took me on the Metro, we'd 355/M55 it to Four Lane Ends, Metro to Chichester, then the 7 or 8 to Marsden, otherwise it would be M55 to Haymarket then the X34 from Haymarket to Marsden (yes i am that old to remember the X34 stopping at Haymarket Bus Station)

(07 May 2024, 6:39 pm)Storx wrote Yeah of course, wasn't suggesting it next week. There's plans to reopen the Bensham Curve though which will make it pretty much 3/4 track from Birtley to Newcastle. Of course it all needs funding but arguably if you want to improve public transport and actually get cars off the road, money like this needs to be spent including sorting out Newcastle Central.

Regardless to what anyone thinks, buses isn't the answer as they're too slow, use the same roads as cars and are unpleasant compared to a private car. Even if it was every 5 minutes outside someones front door most people wouldn't touch it with a barge pole and that's before even going into networking, ticketing and everything else wrong with them.

Obviously it's not in governments interests in the UK, so public transport will never improve outside of London. They'll just keep wasting it on pointless sticking plaster schemes and I'll eat a hat if the Metro ever gets beyond Washington, if it even manages to get there.

I know it's in the long term plans to have a CLS -> Birtley -> Teams -> Metro Centre -> Newcastle service, how the last bit works who only knows tbh.

But the point is none of that is going to happen in the next decade. In the meantime you need to encourage as many people as possible to use the public transport system that currently exists in terms of infrastructure. That is basically buses right now. And that is why curtailing services at Gatehead is a no go.

(08 May 2024, 5:29 pm)markydh wrote But the point is none of that is going to happen in the next decade. In the meantime you need to encourage as many people as possible to use the public transport system that currently exists in terms of infrastructure. That is basically buses right now. And that is why curtailing services at Gatehead is a no go.

Yeah no arguments at all, personally I agree 100% terminating anything at Gateshead is a ridiculous idea. Would be a complete nuisance. It's where the Birtley comments came from ie. if you want to terminate things at a hub, it needs to miles out, not basically at the end destination.

(08 May 2024, 6:48 pm)Storx wrote Yeah no arguments at all, personally I agree 100% terminating anything at Gateshead is a ridiculous idea. Would be a complete nuisance. It's where the Birtley comments came from ie. if you want to terminate things at a hub, it needs to miles out, not basically at the end destination.

When people talk about the continental model that's exactly why it works. I've travelled in cities like Prague, Stockholm, Riga where you get the bus from the suburbs to a hub which then takes you speedily into the centre. Making people get a bus to kick them off within touching distance of the city to be forced onto a metro definitely won't and would likely either stop people traveling to the cities to spend money, or jump back in the car and the whole project fails.

(08 May 2024, 6:53 pm)Shrek wrote When people talk about the continental model that's exactly why it works. I've travelled in cities like Prague, Stockholm, Riga where you get the bus from the suburbs to a hub which then takes you speedily into the centre. Making people get a bus to kick them off within touching distance of the city to be forced onto a metro definitely won't and would likely either stop people traveling to the cities to spend money, or jump back in the car and the whole project fails.

Yep pretty much and as a result of everyone getting dumped it at one place, it means you can have a very frequent service between the hub and the main destination at the same time. It's a great model and works in London aswell really hence the tube can run every 4 minutes or whatever it is and still be standing load. Always amuses me somewhere like Ealing Broadway where you can have a standing Central Line train (pre Crossrail) before even leaving the station.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-map...251123.pdf - Can see it working really well there. No bus station either, god help them...

I think the crux of all of this thread, is it's become apparent that it's one person assuming they know what thousands of others want. 
Probably the entire reason why privatisation failed. 

Whatever happens or changes as a result of franchising, the key is to undertake in depth consultation, research and planning.
The sort of planning that helps future proof the network, meet modern travel patterns, but also allows it to be flexible and adapt to changing needs and demands.

We might as well not bother otherwise. 

Oh and we need to have a shake up of those involved. 
Having experience as anything other than a driver within a local operator or having any connection whatsoever with the 10% club would instantly exclude a candidate if I was sifting through the CV's.

(08 May 2024, 8:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote Oh and we need to have a shake up of those involved. 
Having experience as anything other than a driver within a local operator or having any connection whatsoever with the 10% club would instantly exclude a candidate if I was sifting through the CV's.

Probably not going to find a candidate, then, are you?

Pity to exclude such a vast pool of people (almost everyone!) by tarring them all with the same brush. Never mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(09 May 2024, 4:10 am)Dan wrote Probably not going to find a candidate, then, are you?

Pity to exclude such a vast pool of people (almost everyone!) by tarring them all with the same brush. Never mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's the association with copy and paste network afficionados, identikit livery lovers and interior titivator botherers that seals the deal. 
Haven't seen anything other than the same format being recycled up and down the country.
Regardless of the unique needs a region or network may have. 

I mean, depending on the level of influence the candidates have, it may mean the PR spin in blogs etc is a positive one.
But that doesn't mean it's going to succeed with passengers does it?

I would imagine that Kim will be getting plenty of advice from the transport team in Andy Burnham’s office. There are different challenges in the North East given it’s an eclectic mix of urban and rural, but as a rule it probably will end up being franchising routes as they exist at the time of introduction because that will be the most logical way of transitioning. But once it has bedded in, in will then be a lot easier to do a full network review given we’ll no longer have private bus operators doing what is best for them in their own area with precious little consideration of the whole.

Just as a thought, if park and rides ever have a hope of taking off up here, then we will need to have dedicated park and ride buses that take users directly to where they need to be. So for commuters from South Gateshead and Durham to Newcastle, you’d need a service that runs non-stop from wherever the car park is to Central Station and one of the bus stations and then the same in the opposite direction, avoiding Gateshead Town Centre entirely. Same for any park and ride based at the Metrocentre, or one for commuters from Northumberland. Plonking a car park somewhere and then just expecting people to get on existing service buses will never work.

(09 May 2024, 1:33 pm)markydh wrote I would imagine that Kim will be getting plenty of advice from the transport team in Andy Burnham’s office. There are different challenges in the North East given it’s an eclectic mix of urban and rural, but as a rule it probably will end up being franchising routes as they exist at the time of introduction because that will be the most logical way of transitioning. But once it has bedded in, in will then be a lot easier to do a full network review given we’ll no longer have private bus operators doing what is best for them in their own area with precious little consideration of the whole.

Just as a thought, if park and rides ever have a hope of taking off up here, then we will need to have dedicated park and ride buses that take users directly to where they need to be. So for commuters from South Gateshead and Durham to Newcastle, you’d need a service that runs non-stop from wherever the car park is to Central Station and one of the bus stations and then the same in the opposite direction, avoiding Gateshead Town Centre entirely. Same for any park and ride based at the Metrocentre, or one for commuters from Northumberland. Plonking a car park somewhere and then just expecting people to get on existing service buses will never work.

Park and Rides only really work if it's free to park and if the journey time is no worse by parking and getting the bus compared to driving and finding a parking space. That means lots of bus priority in order to compensate for the time it takes to park and then board a bus - and that ain't happening unless there is a very good business case.

(09 May 2024, 8:21 pm)DeltaMan wrote Park and Rides only really work if it's free to park and if the journey time is no worse by parking and getting the bus compared to driving and finding a parking space. That means lots of bus priority in order to compensate for the time it takes to park and then board a bus - and that ain't happening unless there is a very good business case.

To be fair, I can't see them ever working. There's a massive P&R at Northumberland Park and Four Lane Ends, you'll be lucky if 1 floor is full at both of them. Just no reason to use  them considering how easy it is to drive and park in Newcastle.

It's very different to the old cities like York, Durham, Chester etc where parking is limited.

The only way you'd have a successful P&R is strategically placing them in places where there's a flow in the opposite direction ie. say Team Valley and then it serves two purposes, an express bus for the workers at Team Valley and an express bus towards Newcastle. I know it's how it works in York at places like the Designer Village and Monks Cross. Least then, if the car park is empty the buses still have a purpose which generally go against the P&R peak flows.

(09 May 2024, 1:33 pm)markydh wrote I would imagine that Kim will be getting plenty of advice from the transport team in Andy Burnham’s office. There are different challenges in the North East given it’s an eclectic mix of urban and rural, but as a rule it probably will end up being franchising routes as they exist at the time of introduction because that will be the most logical way of transitioning. But once it has bedded in, in will then be a lot easier to do a full network review given we’ll no longer have private bus operators doing what is best for them in their own area with precious little consideration of the whole.

Just as a thought, if park and rides ever have a hope of taking off up here, then we will need to have dedicated park and ride buses that take users directly to where they need to be. So for commuters from South Gateshead and Durham to Newcastle, you’d need a service that runs non-stop from wherever the car park is to Central Station and one of the bus stations and then the same in the opposite direction, avoiding Gateshead Town Centre entirely. Same for any park and ride based at the Metrocentre, or one for commuters from Northumberland. Plonking a car park somewhere and then just expecting people to get on existing service buses will never work.

Hi expect that Kim will be getting plenty of advice from the officers at NECA and from Nexus - plus Cllr Gannon who holds the Transport Portfolio on NECA.