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RE: Trains
(28 May 2014, 8:14 pm)aureolin wrote Don't really have much of an idea bout the complexities of deregulation of the rail industry, but I thought they leased the trains from a leasing company? Which are owned by banks?

I'm convinced that if I went and leased a car off a proper company, I'd be expected to maintain it to their requirements, at my own expense.

We do not know what maintainence the HST's require. If it is simple day to day stuff, then yeah like a car this should be catered for by First, however if it is anything major or overhauls, I still think First should not pay for it since they lease the trains from Porterbrook and Angel Trains. Maybe these companies should pay rather than First or the franchise itself?
RE: Trains
Since there doesn't seem anywhere else to put this I've decided to include it in this thread. Mods - Please feel free to move if not appropriate.

I have 5 days off so I decided to buy a North East 4 in 8 Day Rover.

My first train of the day is the 09:10 Trans-Pennine service (54118) between Newcastle and York.
Second train of the day is the 11:40 Trans-Pennine service between York and Scarborough.
My third train of the day is the 13:28 Northern Rail service between Scarborough and Hull.
Fourth train is the 15:57 Northern Rail service between Hull and Doncaster.
Fifth (and possibly last) train of the day is the 17:19 Cross-Country service between York and Newcastle.

I may get to the train to Metrocentre (would love to get it to Blaydon but it involves over an hour's wait at Newcastle). Either way, the last leg of my journey will involve getting the 45, 46, or 47 from Central Station/Metrocentre back to the Gill.

Tomorrow's adventure - Sheffield, Barnsley, Huddersfield, and Harrogate!
RE: Trains
(29 May 2014, 8:19 am)AdamY wrote Since there doesn't seem anywhere else to put this I've decided to include it in this thread. Mods - Please feel free to move if not appropriate.

I have 5 days off so I decided to buy a North East 4 in 8 Day Rover.

My first train of the day is the 09:10 Trans-Pennine service (54118) between Newcastle and York.
Second train of the day is the 11:40 Trans-Pennine service between York and Scarborough.
My third train of the day is the 13:28 Northern Rail service between Scarborough and Hull.
Fourth train is the 15:57 Northern Rail service between Hull and Doncaster.
Fifth (and possibly last) train of the day is the 17:19 Cross-Country service between York and Newcastle.

I may get to the train to Metrocentre (would love to get it to Blaydon but it involves over an hour's wait at Newcastle). Either way, the last leg of my journey will involve getting the 45, 46, or 47 from Central Station/Metrocentre back to the Gill.

Tomorrow's adventure - Sheffield, Barnsley, Huddersfield, and Harrogate!

Sometimes is a HST working if my timings are right.
Did it continue onto Glasgow or was it the double Voyager upto Dundee?
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Trains
(29 May 2014, 7:34 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Sometimes is a HST working if my timings are right.
Did it continue onto Glasgow or was it the double Voyager upto Dundee?

No, it terminated at Newcastle. However, there was an East Coast train which terminated at Glasgow approx 9 minutes beforehand. It was your typical Cross-Country allocation - Class 220 (Voyager) I believe.
RE: Trains
(29 May 2014, 8:27 pm)AdamY wrote No, it terminated at Newcastle. However, there was an East Coast train which terminated at Glasgow approx 9 minutes beforehand. It was your typical Cross-Country allocation - Class 220 (Voyager) I believe.

Getting mixed up. The Crosscountry to Glasgow is an hour later.
Sometimes get lucky with a HST set.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Trains
(29 May 2014, 8:43 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Getting mixed up. The Crosscountry to Glasgow is an hour later.
Sometimes get lucky with a HST set.

Who knows. I might end up on that tomorrow night.

I was tempted to leave the train at Darlo, get the train to Middlesbrough, then ride up the Durham coast towards Newcastle. I kind of wish I had of done now.
RE: Trains
Second day of using my North East 4 in 8 Day Rover.

After a speedy journey into town on the 08:46 46 from Rowlands Gill, my first train of the day is train of the day is 09:35 Cross-Country service from Newcastle to Sheffield. The train continues to Southampton Central after that.
RE: Trains
(30 May 2014, 8:33 am)AdamY wrote Second day of using my North East 4 in 8 Day Rover.

After a speedy journey into town on the 08:46 46 from Rowlands Gill, my first train of the day is train of the day is 09:35 Cross-Country service from Newcastle to Sheffield. The train continues to Southampton Central after that.

No idea what the whole story is, but there appears to be a derailment in the Doncaster area. Good luck if you are still down that way!
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Trains
(30 May 2014, 11:09 am)Andreos Constantopolous wrote No idea what the whole story is, but there appears to be a derailment in the Doncaster area. Good luck if you are still down that way!

Only found out about it 5 mins ago upon entering Sheffield station. I'm now on a train to Leeds (13:18 via Barnsley) which was delayed by 5 mins, but because I have no real plan and I'm doing everything ad-hoc, it didn't affect me much.

It was a goods train according to this article I've found:

http://www.southyorkshiretimes.co.uk/new...-1-5949622
RE: Trains
(30 May 2014, 12:31 pm)AdamY wrote Only found out about it 5 mins ago upon entering Sheffield station. I'm now on a train to Leeds (13:18 via Barnsley) which was delayed by 5 mins, but because I have no real plan and I'm doing everything ad-hoc, it didn't affect me much.

It was a goods train according to this article I've found:

http://www.southyorkshiretimes.co.uk/new...-1-5949622

66057 de-railed just north of Doncaster station

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RE: Trains
One thing I've noticed when travelling around Yorkshire is how well bus and rail services are integrated through the building of interchanges. They all seem to be busy too unlike Prudhoe, Hexham and Hartlepool. Take away the Tyne & Wear Metro (and Hartlepool), I can't really think of any major town in the North East which places bus stations adjacent to rail stations. Of course, geography and location will play some role, but are there any other reasons?
RE: Trains
(30 May 2014, 12:53 pm)AdamY wrote One thing I've noticed when travelling around Yorkshire is how well bus and rail services are integrated through the building of interchanges. They all seem to be busy too unlike Prudhoe, Hexham and Hartlepool. Take away the Tyne & Wear Metro (and Hartlepool), I can't really think of any major town in the North East which places bus stations adjacent to rail stations. Of course, geography and location will play some role, but are there any other reasons?

Politics and competition?
Across Yorkshire, you have the PTE tie-ins and as a result, a pretty comprehensive rail and bus network - which would compare with Nexus in Tyne & Wear.
Once you get away from Tyne & Wear, into Northumberland, Durham and Teesside, the integrated infrastructure is non-existent.

Even Hartlepool Interchange has become a white elephant, despite the best intentions of the council.

Looking at a Northern Rail map of stations across the North East, integration is basically non-existent - bar a few stations, where an infrequent bus calls into the railway station or at the nearest main road.

Mind, it isn't just the North East which is like that.
I think places such as Yorkshire (particularly West and South) and London are some of the only exceptions to the rule.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Trains
I’d guess that in many parts of Yorkshire they have either more frequent trains, more frequent buses, or both.

I think the success of interchanges comes down to frequency of service. In my opinion, you need either a train service of every 20 minutes or better, OR a bus service of every 20 minutes or better, for interchange to work – otherwise, the chances of buses meeting trains becomes too remote. So Hexham, for instance, with two trains an hour towards Newcastle, hasn’t got a high enough train service for interchange to work well, and has only two buses an hour (one each on 687 and 688, plus peak time 683s). If there were three trains an hour towards Newcastle, you’d have more chance of a bus connection working; equally, if the trains remained the same and the buses were every 20 minutes, it might work, too. What you can’t do, though, is have buses ‘laying over’ at railway stations, because the bus would have to arrive about seven minutes before the train was due to depart and depart about three minutes after the train arrived – those ten minutes (which would more likely have to be 12 if the train was late) would make the bus operation (especially in a small town) too expensive.

Resolving the problem, then, becomes one of ‘step change’ – the step required to make a change is huge. To use Hexham as an example, to really make a difference you’d need a train every 20 minutes, probably using electric stock to get better acceleration and shorter journey times to compete with the car; but the investment required to make this step change is enormous; but without it, bus/train interchange is unlikely to be attractive.

For me, an elegant solution is to extend the 25Kv electrification to our regional railways, with fast, frequent trains linking Hexham, Morpeth, Ashington, Sunderland and Durham (and beyond – Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Darlington and Carlisle too!). I’m sure we could have lots of fun on here working out viable service patterns. But with three tph at Hexham, Ashington and Morpeth (for example), interchange there would become a no-brainer.

And if people still insisted on driving into the city centres – slap them with a congestion charge!
RE: Trains
(30 May 2014, 2:00 pm)eezypeazy wrote I’d guess that in many parts of Yorkshire they have either more frequent trains, more frequent buses, or both.

I think the success of interchanges comes down to frequency of service. In my opinion, you need either a train service of every 20 minutes or better, OR a bus service of every 20 minutes or better, for interchange to work – otherwise, the chances of buses meeting trains becomes too remote. So Hexham, for instance, with two trains an hour towards Newcastle, hasn’t got a high enough train service for interchange to work well, and has only two buses an hour (one each on 687 and 688, plus peak time 683s). If there were three trains an hour towards Newcastle, you’d have more chance of a bus connection working; equally, if the trains remained the same and the buses were every 20 minutes, it might work, too. What you can’t do, though, is have buses ‘laying over’ at railway stations, because the bus would have to arrive about seven minutes before the train was due to depart and depart about three minutes after the train arrived – those ten minutes (which would more likely have to be 12 if the train was late) would make the bus operation (especially in a small town) too expensive.

Resolving the problem, then, becomes one of ‘step change’ – the step required to make a change is huge. To use Hexham as an example, to really make a difference you’d need a train every 20 minutes, probably using electric stock to get better acceleration and shorter journey times to compete with the car; but the investment required to make this step change is enormous; but without it, bus/train interchange is unlikely to be attractive.

For me, an elegant solution is to extend the 25Kv electrification to our regional railways, with fast, frequent trains linking Hexham, Morpeth, Ashington, Sunderland and Durham (and beyond – Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Darlington and Carlisle too!). I’m sure we could have lots of fun on here working out viable service patterns. But with three tph at Hexham, Ashington and Morpeth (for example), interchange there would become a no-brainer.

And if people still insisted on driving into the city centres – slap them with a congestion charge!

It is a vicious circle in the current fragmented market.

A toc or Network Rail won't invest in an interchange facility, without a decent bus network.
Similarly, a bus operator is not going to dedicate buses to a railway station that fails to provide them with adequate custom/revenue.
Because passenger numbers on the train aren't high enough to encourage a more frequent service, they continue as things stand.
Because the train passenger numbers won't increase, the bus operators don't add an extra vehicle or two into the pvr.

If you look at the Leeds area as an example, the two systems work well, because of the partnership work with the PTE and operators of the current bus network down there.
I would argue the system in place in Gateshead, Four Lane Ends and Heworth is just as impressive, but only exists as a legacy of the PTE and introduction of the Metro. Even following the 1986 changes and buses continuing into Newcastle, the framework was in place, which continued to give customers a choice.

Given the future of rail travel in the south and Go ahead having a foothold into more or less every terminus in London and the major towns/cities on the lines leading out of London - including a number that already see Go ahead bus services, I wonder if we see a greater integration of rail and bus in those places?
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Trains
I don't think the 'fragmented market' has anything to do with it, really. It's the cost of the 'step change' that provides the limiting factor. Sticking with Hexham as an example, adding an extra train an hour would need the line to be resignalled to provide the train path (even if the line wasn't to be electrified); but 3 tph would be a much more attractive service than two tph. Even if the entire public transport system was nationalised, there'd still be a huge investment cost; or, if the railways had been fully privatised (rather than this 'half way house' we have at the moment), then the private sector might have been incentivised to provide the necessary capital. Sadly, 'micro-management' of the railways by the DfT seems to produce the worst of both worlds...
RE: Trains
(30 May 2014, 2:36 pm)eezypeazy wrote I don't think the 'fragmented market' has anything to do with it, really. It's the cost of the 'step change' that provides the limiting factor. Sticking with Hexham as an example, adding an extra train an hour would need the line to be resignalled to provide the train path (even if the line wasn't to be electrified); but 3 tph would be a much more attractive service than two tph. Even if the entire public transport system was nationalised, there'd still be a huge investment cost; or, if the railways had been fully privatised (rather than this 'half way house' we have at the moment), then the private sector might have been incentivised to provide the necessary capital. Sadly, 'micro-management' of the railways by the DfT seems to produce the worst of both worlds...

But surely that example shows the problems with the fragmented market - you have just highlighted a number of points that helps to make up the fragmented system; such as your 'half way house', the lack of incentives for the private sector to improve infrastructure and the involvement of the DfT...

If you look at the example I gave in the previous post.
Network Rail will not spend money on improving the infrastructure to improve the frequency, without seeing an increase in demand for services along the line.
The bus companies will not feed in to the network, unless they see a demand, throwing the onus back onto Network Rail and the toc's.

Forget anything to do with signalling restraints that exist currently, but imagine if Go ahead adds to its railway network and wins the Northern Rail franchise.
What do you think would happen to bus services that shadow the Tyne Valley or Durham Coast lines?
I would put my last pound on in Fozz's bookies, that we would see further integration at a number (not all) of the key stations along the routes, resulting in greater passenger numbers on both bus and rail.

You may disagree...
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Trains
My third and fourth trains of the day (30/5/14):

3) 14:49 Northern Rail service between Leeds and Carlisle. This service was delayed on route requiring around a 30 minute wait at Settle. The talk on the train was that the delay was caused by a logging train overshooting points and missing its siding - a reversal was apparently required.

4) 18:37 Northern Rail service between Carlisle and Metrocentre. No delays so far!

Not a delay but a little bit of drama on the train back from Carlisle. The conductor had to forcibly open the toilet door after the occupant refused to come out. Looking at the clip of him, I suspect he was busy constructing a joint. I hope he has the decency to pass it round Big Grin
RE: Trains
Oh, and an inebriated Asian guy has just boarded the train at Haltwhistle and managed to spill vodka and lager all over the table across the aisle from me.

I wonder what will happen next!
RE: Trains
Today was the third day of using my 4-in-8 North East Rail Rover.

1) 10:05 Trans-Pennine service from Newcastle to Leeds
2) 13:44 Trans-Pennine service from Leeds to Huddersfield
3) 15:04 Trans-Pennine service from Huddersfield to Leeds (This train was running approx 35 mins late although I turned up at the station as the train was pulling in)
4) 15:40 Northern Rail service between Leeds and Bradford Forster Square
5) 16:34 Northern Rail service between Bradford Interchange and Leeds
6) 17:49 Trans-Pennine service between Leeds and Middlesbrough
7) 19:42 Northern Rail service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle

Lots of passengers travelling between Newcastle and York/York and Middlesbrough. It looked people were dressed for a day at the races. Was there something of significance on today?
RE: Trains
(31 May 2014, 10:00 pm)AdamY wrote Today was the third day of using my 4-in-8 North East Rail Rover.

1) 10:05 Trans-Pennine service from Newcastle to Leeds
2) 13:44 Trans-Pennine service from Leeds to Huddersfield
3) 15:04 Trans-Pennine service from Huddersfield to Leeds (This train was running approx 35 mins late although I turned up at the station as the train was pulling in)
4) 15:40 Northern Rail service between Leeds and Bradford Forster Square
5) 16:34 Northern Rail service between Bradford Interchange and Leeds
6) 17:49 Trans-Pennine service between Leeds and Middlesbrough
7) 19:42 Northern Rail service between Middlesbrough and Newcastle

Lots of passengers travelling between Newcastle and York/York and Middlesbrough. It looked people were dressed for a day at the races. Was there something of significance on today?

May Spring meeting at York racecourse.
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RE: Trains
(31 May 2014, 10:38 pm)aureolin wrote May Spring meeting at York racecourse.

Thought as much. Both trains were at full capacity with people consuming champagne and wine on the way down. An unscheduled stop was added at Thirsk in both directions. On the way down, I was hoping everyone that was getting off there.
RE: Trains
(01 Jun 2014, 9:23 am)AdamY wrote Thought as much. Both trains were at full capacity with people consuming champagne and wine on the way down. An unscheduled stop was added at Thirsk in both directions. On the way down, I was hoping everyone that was getting off there.

The Middlesbrough ones always stop at Thirsk, would be an additional stop in a Newcastle train though.

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RE: Trains
(01 Jun 2014, 9:42 am)tyresmoke wrote The Middlesbrough ones always stop at Thirsk, would be an additional stop in a Newcastle train though.

I probably misread the destination board at Leeds on the way back. Does it usually stop at Garforth? I don't recall that stop being listed either.
RE: Trains
(01 Jun 2014, 9:55 am)AdamY wrote I probably misread the destination board at Leeds on the way back. Does it usually stop at Garforth? I don't recall that stop being listed either.

Yeah they do, there used to be a peak time one that stopped at Cross Gates instead of Garforth but since the timetable change the other week I'm not sure if there is now.

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RE: Trains
Fourth and final day of my 4-in-8 Day Rover.

1) 10:12 East Coast Service from Newcastle to Berwick
2) 11:12 East Coast Service from Berwick to Darlington
3) 12:58 East Coast Service from Darlington to York
4) 14:56 East Coast Service from York to Darlington
5) 15:35 Northern Rail service from Darlington to Saltburn
6) 16:36 Northern Rail service from Saltburn to Bishop Auckland
7) 18:07 Northern Rail service from Bishop Auckland to Darlington
8) 18:42 Trans-Pennine service from Darlington and Newcastle
RE: Trains
(01 Jun 2014, 7:53 pm)AdamY wrote Fourth and final day of my 4-in-8 Day Rover.

1) 10:12 East Coast Service from Newcastle to Berwick
2) 11:12 East Coast Service from Berwick to Darlington
3) 12:58 East Coast Service from Darlington to York
4) 14:56 East Coast Service from York to Darlington
5) 15:35 Northern Rail service from Darlington to Saltburn
6) 15:36 Northern Rail service from Saltburn to Bishop Auckland

7) 18:07 Northern Rail service from Bishop Auckland to Darlington
8) 18:42 Trans-Pennine service from Darlington and Newcastle

HS2 or have Delorian started making trains too? Wink
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Trains
(01 Jun 2014, 7:55 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote HS2 or have Delorian started making trains too? Wink

Obviously, the latter was meant to read 16:36. Four days worth of sitting on trains gets to you eventually - as does time travel on the 45 of course!