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Dan

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18,128
30 Jul 2014, 9:30 pm #781
(30 Jul 2014, 9:27 pm)DaveyBowyer Dan, do you think Volvo / Wrightbus will offer an 8 litre option?
I don't, in all honesty. At least not this year.

Call me cynical, but I've made my views clear on what I think Volvo's intentions are, with regards to 5 litre buses and lovely, luxurious (expensive) coaches being the other alternative...
Dan
30 Jul 2014, 9:30 pm #781

(30 Jul 2014, 9:27 pm)DaveyBowyer Dan, do you think Volvo / Wrightbus will offer an 8 litre option?
I don't, in all honesty. At least not this year.

Call me cynical, but I've made my views clear on what I think Volvo's intentions are, with regards to 5 litre buses and lovely, luxurious (expensive) coaches being the other alternative...

L469 YVK



3,557
30 Jul 2014, 9:32 pm #782
(30 Jul 2014, 9:30 pm)Dan I don't, in all honesty. At least not this year.

Call me cynical, but I've made my views clear on what I think Volvo's intentions are, with regards to 5 litre buses and lovely, luxurious (expensive) coaches being the other alternative...

They'd get good orders from GNE if they did though.
L469 YVK
30 Jul 2014, 9:32 pm #782

(30 Jul 2014, 9:30 pm)Dan I don't, in all honesty. At least not this year.

Call me cynical, but I've made my views clear on what I think Volvo's intentions are, with regards to 5 litre buses and lovely, luxurious (expensive) coaches being the other alternative...

They'd get good orders from GNE if they did though.

Malarkey



6,064
30 Jul 2014, 9:33 pm #783
(30 Jul 2014, 9:19 pm)Racer_Experience and as soon as you know i know and ill let the others know and i feel like were working as a team on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE9S3zQx_2k
Malarkey
30 Jul 2014, 9:33 pm #783

(30 Jul 2014, 9:19 pm)Racer_Experience and as soon as you know i know and ill let the others know and i feel like were working as a team on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE9S3zQx_2k

Dan

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18,128
30 Jul 2014, 9:34 pm #784
(30 Jul 2014, 9:32 pm)DaveyBowyer They'd get good orders from GNE if they did though.
They will continue to get orders from GNE regardless, because operators of GNE's size can't afford to splash out on coaches.
Dan
30 Jul 2014, 9:34 pm #784

(30 Jul 2014, 9:32 pm)DaveyBowyer They'd get good orders from GNE if they did though.
They will continue to get orders from GNE regardless, because operators of GNE's size can't afford to splash out on coaches.

L469 YVK



3,557
30 Jul 2014, 9:35 pm #785
(30 Jul 2014, 9:34 pm)Dan They will continue to get orders from GNE regardless, because operators of GNE's size can't afford to splash out on coaches.

And so would Alpha make good money towing a B5 back all the way from Middlesborough to Riverside.
L469 YVK
30 Jul 2014, 9:35 pm #785

(30 Jul 2014, 9:34 pm)Dan They will continue to get orders from GNE regardless, because operators of GNE's size can't afford to splash out on coaches.

And so would Alpha make good money towing a B5 back all the way from Middlesborough to Riverside.

Dan

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18,128
30 Jul 2014, 9:39 pm #786
(30 Jul 2014, 9:35 pm)DaveyBowyer And so would Alpha make good money towing a B5 back all the way from Middlesborough to Riverside.
I aspire that, by the time replacement vehicles NEED to be sourced for the TTX, there will be more suitable alternatives available on the market... Until then, no B5 should really be making its way to Middlesbrough.

Davey, did you hear about the Lothian B5 which went from Newcastle to Edinburgh, then a few days later, Edinburgh to Brighton, then the day after, made the return journey back to Edinburgh?
Dan
30 Jul 2014, 9:39 pm #786

(30 Jul 2014, 9:35 pm)DaveyBowyer And so would Alpha make good money towing a B5 back all the way from Middlesborough to Riverside.
I aspire that, by the time replacement vehicles NEED to be sourced for the TTX, there will be more suitable alternatives available on the market... Until then, no B5 should really be making its way to Middlesbrough.

Davey, did you hear about the Lothian B5 which went from Newcastle to Edinburgh, then a few days later, Edinburgh to Brighton, then the day after, made the return journey back to Edinburgh?

Kuyoyo



6,856
30 Jul 2014, 9:41 pm #787
(30 Jul 2014, 9:27 pm)DaveyBowyer Dan, do you think Volvo / Wrightbus will offer an 8 litre option?

NO! There will not be a B8TL.

(30 Jul 2014, 9:32 pm)DaveyBowyer They'd get good orders from GNE if they did though.

And that is the reason - the majority of the operators they received feedback for Euro6 on asked for the B5TL - they are not going to spend another large amount of money redeveloping their Euro6 chassis to weight less than the Euro5 B9TL to fit the 8-litre engine (the Euro6 B5TL is something like 1000kg less than the B9TL iirc). The fact we've yet to see a B8RLE shows volumes of how the market is going.
Kuyoyo
30 Jul 2014, 9:41 pm #787

(30 Jul 2014, 9:27 pm)DaveyBowyer Dan, do you think Volvo / Wrightbus will offer an 8 litre option?

NO! There will not be a B8TL.

(30 Jul 2014, 9:32 pm)DaveyBowyer They'd get good orders from GNE if they did though.

And that is the reason - the majority of the operators they received feedback for Euro6 on asked for the B5TL - they are not going to spend another large amount of money redeveloping their Euro6 chassis to weight less than the Euro5 B9TL to fit the 8-litre engine (the Euro6 B5TL is something like 1000kg less than the B9TL iirc). The fact we've yet to see a B8RLE shows volumes of how the market is going.

Adrian

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9,600
30 Jul 2014, 9:44 pm #788
(30 Jul 2014, 9:41 pm)Kuyoyo NO! There will not be a B8TL.


And that is the reason - the majority of the operators they received feedback for Euro6 on asked for the B5TL - they are not going to spend another large amount of money redeveloping their Euro6 chassis to weight less than the Euro5 B9TL to fit the 8-litre engine (the Euro6 B5TL is something like 1000kg less than the B9TL iirc). The fact we've yet to see a B8RLE shows volumes of how the market is going.
I'd argue that they would *if* (and that's a big if) there was suddenly enough demand for one. They'd be stupid not to, because if a gap appears in the market, then there's always someone to fill it.

Unlikely maybe, but you can't categorically rule it out.
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Adrian
30 Jul 2014, 9:44 pm #788

(30 Jul 2014, 9:41 pm)Kuyoyo NO! There will not be a B8TL.


And that is the reason - the majority of the operators they received feedback for Euro6 on asked for the B5TL - they are not going to spend another large amount of money redeveloping their Euro6 chassis to weight less than the Euro5 B9TL to fit the 8-litre engine (the Euro6 B5TL is something like 1000kg less than the B9TL iirc). The fact we've yet to see a B8RLE shows volumes of how the market is going.
I'd argue that they would *if* (and that's a big if) there was suddenly enough demand for one. They'd be stupid not to, because if a gap appears in the market, then there's always someone to fill it.

Unlikely maybe, but you can't categorically rule it out.

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Kuyoyo



6,856
30 Jul 2014, 9:52 pm #789
(30 Jul 2014, 9:44 pm)aureolin I'd argue that they would *if* (and that's a big if) there was suddenly enough demand for one. They'd be stupid not to, because if a gap appears in the market, then there's always someone to fill it.

Unlikely maybe, but you can't categorically rule it out.

But what demand - Volvo's main UK customer was First, and they've gone to ADL. National Express's bus fleets have likewise. Arriva also have gone back to ADL from VDL/Wright. Most of Volvo's market has gone - mainly due to problems at Euro4 with weight (hence the lack of B9TLs in London pre-2008).

The simple fact is this - unless the minority that want a B8TL is large enough to recover costs, there won't be a B8TL. End of the day, this is business and Volvo won't spend millions re-working a chassis for a engine when only 1 or 2 companies will buy it from them.
Kuyoyo
30 Jul 2014, 9:52 pm #789

(30 Jul 2014, 9:44 pm)aureolin I'd argue that they would *if* (and that's a big if) there was suddenly enough demand for one. They'd be stupid not to, because if a gap appears in the market, then there's always someone to fill it.

Unlikely maybe, but you can't categorically rule it out.

But what demand - Volvo's main UK customer was First, and they've gone to ADL. National Express's bus fleets have likewise. Arriva also have gone back to ADL from VDL/Wright. Most of Volvo's market has gone - mainly due to problems at Euro4 with weight (hence the lack of B9TLs in London pre-2008).

The simple fact is this - unless the minority that want a B8TL is large enough to recover costs, there won't be a B8TL. End of the day, this is business and Volvo won't spend millions re-working a chassis for a engine when only 1 or 2 companies will buy it from them.

Adrian

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9,600
30 Jul 2014, 9:58 pm #790
(30 Jul 2014, 9:52 pm)Kuyoyo But what demand - Volvo's main UK customer was First, and they've gone to ADL. National Express's bus fleets have likewise. Arriva also have gone back to ADL from VDL/Wright. Most of Volvo's market has gone - mainly due to problems at Euro4 with weight (hence the lack of B9TLs in London pre-2008).

The simple fact is this - unless the minority that want a B8TL is large enough to recover costs, there won't be a B8TL. End of the day, this is business and Volvo won't spend millions re-working a chassis for a engine when only 1 or 2 companies will buy it from them.

Which is exactly what I've said.

Each business defines what sufficient demand is based on numerous factors, but the top and bottom of it in this case would normally be demand for enough units to cover development, production, overheads, and to make a profit in line with group targets on top of that.
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Adrian
30 Jul 2014, 9:58 pm #790

(30 Jul 2014, 9:52 pm)Kuyoyo But what demand - Volvo's main UK customer was First, and they've gone to ADL. National Express's bus fleets have likewise. Arriva also have gone back to ADL from VDL/Wright. Most of Volvo's market has gone - mainly due to problems at Euro4 with weight (hence the lack of B9TLs in London pre-2008).

The simple fact is this - unless the minority that want a B8TL is large enough to recover costs, there won't be a B8TL. End of the day, this is business and Volvo won't spend millions re-working a chassis for a engine when only 1 or 2 companies will buy it from them.

Which is exactly what I've said.

Each business defines what sufficient demand is based on numerous factors, but the top and bottom of it in this case would normally be demand for enough units to cover development, production, overheads, and to make a profit in line with group targets on top of that.

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L469 YVK



3,557
30 Jul 2014, 9:59 pm #791
(30 Jul 2014, 9:39 pm)Dan I aspire that, by the time replacement vehicles NEED to be sourced for the TTX, there will be more suitable alternatives available on the market... Until then, no B5 should really be making its way to Middlesbrough.

Davey, did you hear about the Lothian B5 which went from Newcastle to Edinburgh, then a few days later, Edinburgh to Brighton, then the day after, made the return journey back to Edinburgh?

I'm not talking about short term, I'm talking about upto 18 hours per day for 7 years. I know the B9TL's have been tempermental but have been OK.
L469 YVK
30 Jul 2014, 9:59 pm #791

(30 Jul 2014, 9:39 pm)Dan I aspire that, by the time replacement vehicles NEED to be sourced for the TTX, there will be more suitable alternatives available on the market... Until then, no B5 should really be making its way to Middlesbrough.

Davey, did you hear about the Lothian B5 which went from Newcastle to Edinburgh, then a few days later, Edinburgh to Brighton, then the day after, made the return journey back to Edinburgh?

I'm not talking about short term, I'm talking about upto 18 hours per day for 7 years. I know the B9TL's have been tempermental but have been OK.

L469 YVK



3,557
30 Jul 2014, 10:09 pm #792
Put it this way, this is what they'd get from GNE alone:

- 16 for the X1
- 24 for the TEN and TTX
- 18 for the Cobalt Clipper
- 17 for the Fab 56
- 20 for the Angel
- 9 for the Pronto

That alone is 104 vehicles. Then count in:

- Prince Bishops?
- Laser
- WTX?
- Toonlink
- Citylink if a single deck capacity da ja vu occurs (rather than rigid to artic)?
- Crusader?
L469 YVK
30 Jul 2014, 10:09 pm #792

Put it this way, this is what they'd get from GNE alone:

- 16 for the X1
- 24 for the TEN and TTX
- 18 for the Cobalt Clipper
- 17 for the Fab 56
- 20 for the Angel
- 9 for the Pronto

That alone is 104 vehicles. Then count in:

- Prince Bishops?
- Laser
- WTX?
- Toonlink
- Citylink if a single deck capacity da ja vu occurs (rather than rigid to artic)?
- Crusader?

L469 YVK



3,557
30 Jul 2014, 10:17 pm #793
Then count in ANE if they're willing to sacrafice fuel economy:

- 10 for Coast and Castles
- 15 for X21 / X22
- 12 for X10 / X11 (308)
- 6 for X93

Then count in EYMS, they like bit of power and so do Transdev for the Yorkshire Coastliner. Then count in First Eastern Counties (X1), Go Ahead South Coast and Brighton and Hove.
L469 YVK
30 Jul 2014, 10:17 pm #793

Then count in ANE if they're willing to sacrafice fuel economy:

- 10 for Coast and Castles
- 15 for X21 / X22
- 12 for X10 / X11 (308)
- 6 for X93

Then count in EYMS, they like bit of power and so do Transdev for the Yorkshire Coastliner. Then count in First Eastern Counties (X1), Go Ahead South Coast and Brighton and Hove.

Kuyoyo



6,856
30 Jul 2014, 10:22 pm #794
(30 Jul 2014, 10:09 pm)DaveyBowyer Put it this way, this is what they'd get from GNE alone:

- 16 for the X1
- 24 for the TEN and TTX
- 18 for the Cobalt Clipper
- 17 for the Fab 56
- 20 for the Angel
- 9 for the Pronto

That alone is 104 vehicles. Then count in:

- Prince Bishops?
- Laser
- WTX?
- Toonlink
- Citylink if a single deck capacity da ja vu occurs (rather than rigid to artic)?
- Crusader?

(30 Jul 2014, 10:17 pm)DaveyBowyer Then count in ANE if they're willing to sacrafice fuel economy:

- 10 for Coast and Castles
- 15 for X21 / X22
- 12 for X10 / X11 (308)
- 6 for X93

Then count in EYMS, they like bit of power and so do Transdev for the Yorkshire Coastliner. Then count in First Eastern Counties (X1), Go Ahead South Coast and Brighton and Hove.

Those in bold - First have give up on Volvo, indeed the X1 is worked by E400s now (and they last ordered deckers for Volvo in 2012, and those are now used in Leeds (98) and Manchester (2) after the Olympics). Go-Ahead South Coast have never had B9TLs - indeed all 3 operations (Bluestar, Wilts & Dorset and Southern Vetics) took E400s last year. Arriva are ordering ADLs. Brighton and Hove might but at the end of the day, they just go with the flow (and given most of their work is city service, E400s will do fine).

The simple fact is, 3 operations won't justify the cost of either re-working the B5TL chassis for an 8-litre engine or comply designing a brand new one from scratch. You need to realise that it's very unlikely they will do so.
Edited 30 Jul 2014, 10:23 pm by Kuyoyo.
Kuyoyo
30 Jul 2014, 10:22 pm #794

(30 Jul 2014, 10:09 pm)DaveyBowyer Put it this way, this is what they'd get from GNE alone:

- 16 for the X1
- 24 for the TEN and TTX
- 18 for the Cobalt Clipper
- 17 for the Fab 56
- 20 for the Angel
- 9 for the Pronto

That alone is 104 vehicles. Then count in:

- Prince Bishops?
- Laser
- WTX?
- Toonlink
- Citylink if a single deck capacity da ja vu occurs (rather than rigid to artic)?
- Crusader?

(30 Jul 2014, 10:17 pm)DaveyBowyer Then count in ANE if they're willing to sacrafice fuel economy:

- 10 for Coast and Castles
- 15 for X21 / X22
- 12 for X10 / X11 (308)
- 6 for X93

Then count in EYMS, they like bit of power and so do Transdev for the Yorkshire Coastliner. Then count in First Eastern Counties (X1), Go Ahead South Coast and Brighton and Hove.

Those in bold - First have give up on Volvo, indeed the X1 is worked by E400s now (and they last ordered deckers for Volvo in 2012, and those are now used in Leeds (98) and Manchester (2) after the Olympics). Go-Ahead South Coast have never had B9TLs - indeed all 3 operations (Bluestar, Wilts & Dorset and Southern Vetics) took E400s last year. Arriva are ordering ADLs. Brighton and Hove might but at the end of the day, they just go with the flow (and given most of their work is city service, E400s will do fine).

The simple fact is, 3 operations won't justify the cost of either re-working the B5TL chassis for an 8-litre engine or comply designing a brand new one from scratch. You need to realise that it's very unlikely they will do so.

cbma06



2,669
31 Jul 2014, 1:48 pm #795
Can anybody remember what GNE forcasted of the amount of new buses for this year?, if I remember their was 100 new buses for the pervious year, and their was something of the amount of in the 70's or 80's new buses this year, cant remember exact amount.

cbma06
31 Jul 2014, 1:48 pm #795

Can anybody remember what GNE forcasted of the amount of new buses for this year?, if I remember their was 100 new buses for the pervious year, and their was something of the amount of in the 70's or 80's new buses this year, cant remember exact amount.


Dan

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18,128
31 Jul 2014, 2:01 pm #796
(31 Jul 2014, 1:48 pm)cbma06 Can anybody remember what GNE forcasted of the amount of new buses for this year?, if I remember their was 100 new buses for the pervious year, and their was something of the amount of in the 70's or 80's new buses this year, cant remember exact amount.

Go North East said in their QCS response that they intended to purchase 80 vehicles this and next year; however, plans can change... As I said yesterday, none of our GNE insiders have actually suggested 80 vehicles will be ordered this year - they've suggested a few brand names, but none of the brand names have ever amassed to 80 vehicles in total.

Let's not forget they ordered more vehicles last year than they expected (owing to the downfall of Yourbus with GNE taking on a lot of the work)... Second hand coaches are fairly pricey - brand new coaches are even more expensive.
Dan
31 Jul 2014, 2:01 pm #796

(31 Jul 2014, 1:48 pm)cbma06 Can anybody remember what GNE forcasted of the amount of new buses for this year?, if I remember their was 100 new buses for the pervious year, and their was something of the amount of in the 70's or 80's new buses this year, cant remember exact amount.

Go North East said in their QCS response that they intended to purchase 80 vehicles this and next year; however, plans can change... As I said yesterday, none of our GNE insiders have actually suggested 80 vehicles will be ordered this year - they've suggested a few brand names, but none of the brand names have ever amassed to 80 vehicles in total.

Let's not forget they ordered more vehicles last year than they expected (owing to the downfall of Yourbus with GNE taking on a lot of the work)... Second hand coaches are fairly pricey - brand new coaches are even more expensive.

Tom

Website


6,138
05 Aug 2014, 5:31 pm #797
Just thinking - if there are additional peak time runs on the X21, could the service be operated by Citaros?
Tom
05 Aug 2014, 5:31 pm #797

Just thinking - if there are additional peak time runs on the X21, could the service be operated by Citaros?

GuyParkRoyal



1,005
06 Aug 2014, 12:21 pm #798
(05 Aug 2014, 5:31 pm)Tom Just thinking - if there are additional peak time runs on the X21, could the service be operated by Citaros?

I think the X21 would be better served by a double deck vehicle based on the North bound loadings from Chester le Street between 09.28 and 11.28.
Edit: The link below shows a typical weekday loading for the X21 mid morning.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gpr_bus_ph...9589969513

There will be even more passengers on the same journey on a Saturday.
Edited 06 Aug 2014, 12:55 pm by GuyParkRoyal.
GuyParkRoyal
06 Aug 2014, 12:21 pm #798

(05 Aug 2014, 5:31 pm)Tom Just thinking - if there are additional peak time runs on the X21, could the service be operated by Citaros?

I think the X21 would be better served by a double deck vehicle based on the North bound loadings from Chester le Street between 09.28 and 11.28.
Edit: The link below shows a typical weekday loading for the X21 mid morning.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gpr_bus_ph...9589969513

There will be even more passengers on the same journey on a Saturday.

Dan

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Site Administrator

18,128
06 Aug 2014, 5:54 pm #799
(05 Aug 2014, 5:31 pm)Tom Just thinking - if there are additional peak time runs on the X21, could the service be operated by Citaros?

Not really - refer to the second last quote on this post.

As GuyParkRoyal said above, there are a lot of times where service X21 has a lot of customers. Much like the present situation with service 685, this is Go North East hammering another nail into Arriva's coffin.

We've recently discussed Stagecoach on Teesside's operations in regards to double deckers, and I must say that Go North East is very good at investing into double deckers if the service justifies them at peak times - maybe they don't care about all those pennies after all, and do care about their customers! Wink
Dan
06 Aug 2014, 5:54 pm #799

(05 Aug 2014, 5:31 pm)Tom Just thinking - if there are additional peak time runs on the X21, could the service be operated by Citaros?

Not really - refer to the second last quote on this post.

As GuyParkRoyal said above, there are a lot of times where service X21 has a lot of customers. Much like the present situation with service 685, this is Go North East hammering another nail into Arriva's coffin.

We've recently discussed Stagecoach on Teesside's operations in regards to double deckers, and I must say that Go North East is very good at investing into double deckers if the service justifies them at peak times - maybe they don't care about all those pennies after all, and do care about their customers! Wink

Malarkey



6,064
06 Aug 2014, 5:59 pm #800
Just been thinking, although it could be a Long Shot due to said Vehicles only Receiving a Repaint in May 2012, But would the Red Kite justify Double Deckers, and more so Justify them if Toonlink Service 47 was to join the Brand, and then be extended from Blackhall Mill to Consett via Medomeley and Leadgate, Thus upping the Frequency to Every 10 Minutes and also having the Services Interwork with eachother.

As a Result Toonlink Service 11 would be a Standalone Service, while Services 31/32 would still Interwork, and on top of that would still receive Investment this year.
Malarkey
06 Aug 2014, 5:59 pm #800

Just been thinking, although it could be a Long Shot due to said Vehicles only Receiving a Repaint in May 2012, But would the Red Kite justify Double Deckers, and more so Justify them if Toonlink Service 47 was to join the Brand, and then be extended from Blackhall Mill to Consett via Medomeley and Leadgate, Thus upping the Frequency to Every 10 Minutes and also having the Services Interwork with eachother.

As a Result Toonlink Service 11 would be a Standalone Service, while Services 31/32 would still Interwork, and on top of that would still receive Investment this year.

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