Stagecoach North East: Service Suggestions
Stagecoach North East: Service Suggestions
(28 Sep 2014, 8:31 pm)Kuyoyo The Norton-end of the 37/38 doesn't justify an increased frequency however - the busiest section of the 36/37/38 is Park End to Norton, with the extremely busiest section being Norton to Middlesbrough. Going non-stop between Middlesbrough and Thornaby would then leave Middlesbrough without any true link to Teesside Park (the 36/37/38 are the only link they have - even if it's a 10 minutes walk to the Park) as well as abandoning the Wilderness Road. Reliability of the services is down to external factors (36 has the level crossing in Billingham, then add any roadworks on top of that).
(28 Sep 2014, 8:31 pm)Kuyoyo The Norton-end of the 37/38 doesn't justify an increased frequency however - the busiest section of the 36/37/38 is Park End to Norton, with the extremely busiest section being Norton to Middlesbrough. Going non-stop between Middlesbrough and Thornaby would then leave Middlesbrough without any true link to Teesside Park (the 36/37/38 are the only link they have - even if it's a 10 minutes walk to the Park) as well as abandoning the Wilderness Road. Reliability of the services is down to external factors (36 has the level crossing in Billingham, then add any roadworks on top of that).
(28 Sep 2014, 8:43 pm)col87 I meant only the 36 would run non stop the 37 and 38 would continue as normal under a 10 minuate frequency
(28 Sep 2014, 8:43 pm)col87 I meant only the 36 would run non stop the 37 and 38 would continue as normal under a 10 minuate frequency
(28 Sep 2014, 8:48 pm)Kuyoyo So part of the busiest sections of the route and you want the frequency cut just to improve reliability that is caused by outside factors that they try to plan the timetables round? Things don't need to change just for the sake of changing - leave that to Go North East
(28 Sep 2014, 8:48 pm)Kuyoyo So part of the busiest sections of the route and you want the frequency cut just to improve reliability that is caused by outside factors that they try to plan the timetables round? Things don't need to change just for the sake of changing - leave that to Go North East
(28 Sep 2014, 8:57 pm)col87 Well my point was that this would be a good time to look at the network and see what improvements can be made. Smaller buses is not going to help though so something must be happening with the routes.
(29 Sep 2014, 4:06 pm)Robert Because not all journeys require buses with loads of seats like a decker.
(29 Sep 2014, 4:06 pm)Robert Because not all journeys require buses with loads of seats like a decker.
(29 Sep 2014, 4:10 pm)Dan You could argue the same about Go North East's X1 or 56.
Generally speaking, I'd suggest that Go North East is good at buying vehicles with higher running costs, especially double decker vehicles, even if it sometimes cannot be justified immediately. The fact that some journeys do require the capacity of a double decker should mean that these operators should be thinking about investing into appropriate vehicles - that way, should the services grow any more (which is expected in the majority of cases with investment), they won't face capacity issues whereby certain journeys have to be duplicated.
Again, generally speaking, Arriva and Stagecoach are seemingly a lot more reluctant to do this. Despite services 16 and 20 in Sunderland justifying double deckers for a lot of journeys (even journeys at approximately 12 o'clock are so full where you can see every seat full PLUS standees), Stagecoach opted for single deckers. It's a shame, and seems really short sighted in my opinion.
(29 Sep 2014, 4:10 pm)Dan You could argue the same about Go North East's X1 or 56.
Generally speaking, I'd suggest that Go North East is good at buying vehicles with higher running costs, especially double decker vehicles, even if it sometimes cannot be justified immediately. The fact that some journeys do require the capacity of a double decker should mean that these operators should be thinking about investing into appropriate vehicles - that way, should the services grow any more (which is expected in the majority of cases with investment), they won't face capacity issues whereby certain journeys have to be duplicated.
Again, generally speaking, Arriva and Stagecoach are seemingly a lot more reluctant to do this. Despite services 16 and 20 in Sunderland justifying double deckers for a lot of journeys (even journeys at approximately 12 o'clock are so full where you can see every seat full PLUS standees), Stagecoach opted for single deckers. It's a shame, and seems really short sighted in my opinion.
(29 Sep 2014, 9:14 pm)Robert Maybe because those 2 particular routes are part of the small few that can be classed as their 'flagship' routes? Obviously, the single deckers must have been getting full enough to get an upgrade (and in the X1s case, a full upgrade rather than partially but the Citaros do only have 40 seats).But the point is, if any service is having standing loads on multiple journeys, double deckers should be considered over single deckers when investment is being planned.
(29 Sep 2014, 9:14 pm)Robert Maybe because those 2 particular routes are part of the small few that can be classed as their 'flagship' routes? Obviously, the single deckers must have been getting full enough to get an upgrade (and in the X1s case, a full upgrade rather than partially but the Citaros do only have 40 seats).But the point is, if any service is having standing loads on multiple journeys, double deckers should be considered over single deckers when investment is being planned.
(28 Sep 2014, 9:13 pm)col87 Well why would you buy buses with less seats when you know the bus gets full
(28 Sep 2014, 9:13 pm)col87 Well why would you buy buses with less seats when you know the bus gets full
(30 Sep 2014, 5:50 am)Dan But the point is, if any service is having standing loads on multiple journeys, double deckers should be considered over single deckers when investment is being planned.
As someone who has no idea of the official figures, I'd argue Sunderland's 'flagship' routes are indeed services 16 and 20 - where's the double deckers?
(30 Sep 2014, 5:50 am)Dan But the point is, if any service is having standing loads on multiple journeys, double deckers should be considered over single deckers when investment is being planned.
As someone who has no idea of the official figures, I'd argue Sunderland's 'flagship' routes are indeed services 16 and 20 - where's the double deckers?
(30 Sep 2014, 6:47 am)Michael Maybe they might get the gas decker on demo when its complete... that would be good!I've been on buses on both at around midday with standees.
I was on the 16 yesterday at 5pm and it was packed, same as the one behind it to..
I think most of the SC Sunderland routes are busy...
I would still merge the 8 and 20 together!
(30 Sep 2014, 6:47 am)Michael Maybe they might get the gas decker on demo when its complete... that would be good!I've been on buses on both at around midday with standees.
I was on the 16 yesterday at 5pm and it was packed, same as the one behind it to..
I think most of the SC Sunderland routes are busy...
I would still merge the 8 and 20 together!
(30 Sep 2014, 7:00 am)Dan I've been on buses on both at around midday with standees.Email SC with your suggestion, see what they say.
Me too.
I gave my suggestion for merging services 8 and 20 previously. It shouldn't be too difficult to re-route the 20 to include the little estate next to the Round Robin (this would add 3 mins to journey), and then after doing the Prestbury Road loop, the 20 could easily call into South Hylton - adding about 10 mins to the route (at a guess)... You'd then have 7 mins to play around with, as the resources (two buses) would go into the revised 20.
Singles on the 20 are cheaper than singles on the 8, so this would potentially allow the 20 to incorporate the 8's fares - or simply lower the fares for those using the 8 by retaining the 20's fares!
(30 Sep 2014, 7:00 am)Dan I've been on buses on both at around midday with standees.Email SC with your suggestion, see what they say.
Me too.
I gave my suggestion for merging services 8 and 20 previously. It shouldn't be too difficult to re-route the 20 to include the little estate next to the Round Robin (this would add 3 mins to journey), and then after doing the Prestbury Road loop, the 20 could easily call into South Hylton - adding about 10 mins to the route (at a guess)... You'd then have 7 mins to play around with, as the resources (two buses) would go into the revised 20.
Singles on the 20 are cheaper than singles on the 8, so this would potentially allow the 20 to incorporate the 8's fares - or simply lower the fares for those using the 8 by retaining the 20's fares!
(30 Sep 2014, 7:00 am)Dan I've been on buses on both at around midday with standees.
Me too.
I gave my suggestion for merging services 8 and 20 previously. It shouldn't be too difficult to re-route the 20 to include the little estate next to the Round Robin (this would add 3 mins to journey), and then after doing the Prestbury Road loop, the 20 could easily call into South Hylton - adding about 10 mins to the route (at a guess)... You'd then have 7 mins to play around with, as the resources (two buses) would go into the revised 20.
Singles on the 20 are cheaper than singles on the 8, so this would potentially allow the 20 to incorporate the 8's fares - or simply lower the fares for those using the 8 by retaining the 20's fares!
(30 Sep 2014, 7:00 am)Dan I've been on buses on both at around midday with standees.
Me too.
I gave my suggestion for merging services 8 and 20 previously. It shouldn't be too difficult to re-route the 20 to include the little estate next to the Round Robin (this would add 3 mins to journey), and then after doing the Prestbury Road loop, the 20 could easily call into South Hylton - adding about 10 mins to the route (at a guess)... You'd then have 7 mins to play around with, as the resources (two buses) would go into the revised 20.
Singles on the 20 are cheaper than singles on the 8, so this would potentially allow the 20 to incorporate the 8's fares - or simply lower the fares for those using the 8 by retaining the 20's fares!
(30 Sep 2014, 4:49 pm)stagecoachbusdepot What would be the point though? It wouldn't save any resources as the two buses from the 8 would go onto the 20 and it would make the 20 journey 10 mins longer. The only benefit would be anyone wanting to travel from Prestbury Rd to South Hylton, which can't be huge in number. Would it call into South Hylton both to and from Prestbury Road? If not, those people could get to South Hylton but not back again.
(30 Sep 2014, 4:49 pm)stagecoachbusdepot What would be the point though? It wouldn't save any resources as the two buses from the 8 would go onto the 20 and it would make the 20 journey 10 mins longer. The only benefit would be anyone wanting to travel from Prestbury Rd to South Hylton, which can't be huge in number. Would it call into South Hylton both to and from Prestbury Road? If not, those people could get to South Hylton but not back again.
(30 Sep 2014, 4:55 pm)Dan Not all changes have to save resources? Bus operators do, albeit less regularly, add more resources into services. In this case, you're adding the resources from the 8 into a revised 20 by merging the two and providing a 10 min freq as per the latter, on the former.
It would achieve a 10 minute frequency from South Hylton to the City Centre, opposed to the current 30 minute frequency. Whilst that perhaps in part suggests there isn't a great demand for a 30 minute frequency, it could create more of a demand, taking passengers away from the Metro service.
It would only add about four minutes on to the current 20 timetable (assuming it calls into Prestbury Rd first opposed to South Hylton - it certainly doesn't take 10 mins to get round Hadleigh Rd), and the re-routing via Prestbury Rd for service 8 would only add a few minutes too.
(30 Sep 2014, 4:55 pm)Dan Not all changes have to save resources? Bus operators do, albeit less regularly, add more resources into services. In this case, you're adding the resources from the 8 into a revised 20 by merging the two and providing a 10 min freq as per the latter, on the former.
It would achieve a 10 minute frequency from South Hylton to the City Centre, opposed to the current 30 minute frequency. Whilst that perhaps in part suggests there isn't a great demand for a 30 minute frequency, it could create more of a demand, taking passengers away from the Metro service.
It would only add about four minutes on to the current 20 timetable (assuming it calls into Prestbury Rd first opposed to South Hylton - it certainly doesn't take 10 mins to get round Hadleigh Rd), and the re-routing via Prestbury Rd for service 8 would only add a few minutes too.
Based on the above discussion, I've put together something a bit more visually comprehensive... Provisionally numbered '208' for simplicity, the route is shown on the map below (hopefully it'll work):
http://goo.gl/maps/JzR0g
Service 208 is based to change in-line with the completion of the works in Sunderland. Commencing on Fawcett Street at the bus stop previously used by service 20 (outside of the former Primark building), the service runs via High Street West, Bedford Street and St. Mary's Way. A new bus stop has been created on St. Mary's Way, and this will allow links to local shops such as Argos and Marks & Spencers, as well as the Sunderland Empire. After calling at St. Mary's Way, the service runs up Silksworth Row, before proceeding via the usual route of services 8/20 to Bishopwearmouth Cemetery. From here, the service runs via Hadleigh Road, Helmsdale Road and Holborn Road (as per the current 8 route), continuing the usual route of services 8/20 to St. Anne's Primary School. From here, service 208 runs via Hylton Road and Prestbury Road (as per the current 20 route), returning to St. Anne's, and then turning into South Hylton. The service then continues the current 8 route to Claxheugh Road.
On the return journey from Claxheugh Road, service 208 runs direct up Hylton Bank, opposed to calling at the estate in South Hylton as per journey to Claxheugh Road (similar to the final 8 journey of the day to City Centre). The "Hail & Ride" style service used in this estate can be used in conjunction with the 10 minute frequency to compensate for the lack of a journey via the estate in this direction. From here, the service continues via route taken to South Hylton. At Silksworth Row, the service continues via St. Michael's Way, Albion Place, Holmeside, before reaching the terminus of Fawcett Street.
The PVR would be seven (service 8's PVR of 2 plus service 20's PVR of 5). Provisional times given on the PDF document below, loosely based on current timings of services 8/20...
The journey time of the current service 20 (City Centre to Prestbury Road) increases by 3 minutes, while the return journey (Prestbury Road to City Centre) does significantly increase (40 minutes opposed to current 19 - I did indeed underestimate the timings), though users from Prestbury Rd are in the minority, and those within walking distance of St. Anne's could easily avoid the extra journey time.
11 minutes layover time in total with service 208, compared to the current 10 minutes which service 20 has and 4 minutes which service 8 has - timings are also actually quite loose, so reliability should be less of an issue.
Thoughts/opinions?
