No one has come forward with an answer to this which would suggest, hopefully, that it's either rumour or speculation. As I have said it would be a backward step for the X93 as this requires fleet enhancements as opposed to this.

(22 Feb 2020, 11:32 am)Big O wrote I know I've asked before but are the B9TLs due to transfer to another Arriva NE garage and if so, where?

No, the B9TL's are not moving and it is simply a rumour.

In all likelihood, ANE will get a big influx of new vehicles ready for CAZ in Newcastle, which I understand to be a mix of DD's and Minibuses, replacing B7's and Solos.

A more feasible rumour I have heard is that ANE are actually looking at the Scania E400 for the X15/X18 routes. These routes get new buses every few years because of their mileage and they are due replacement if we consider on that basis.

Thanks for the heads up regarding the BTL9's. Interesting about the X15/18. Not from that area so don't really know the implications.

(22 Feb 2020, 3:42 pm)scanialover wrote Thanks for the heads up regarding the BTL9's. Interesting about the X15/18. Not from that area so don't really know the implications.

From the last conversation I had with people in the know, they're looking at replacements for both the X18 and X93 as both are equally demanding and high mileage routes with a strong focus on seasonality. There certainly won't be anything in place for summer 2020 but maybe through the next winter season they'll replace the fleet? The X93 fleet will be 6 years old and X18 5 years old by that point.

(22 Feb 2020, 3:47 pm)tyresmoke wrote From the last conversation I had with people in the know, they're looking at replacements for both the X18 and X93 as both are equally demanding and high mileage routes with a strong focus on seasonality. There certainly won't be anything in place for summer 2020 but maybe through the next winter season they'll replace the fleet? The X93 fleet will be 6 years old and X18 5 years old by that point.

Both are the same age - 7529-33 were new in September 2014 and 7401-6 entered service in January 2015.

Anyone got any ideas as to what sort of mileages these vehicles make in an average week / year ?

When will 7510 get put on Ashingtons Express routes

(22 Feb 2020, 6:34 pm)scanialover wrote Anyone got any ideas as to what sort of mileages these vehicles make in an average week / year ?

A round trip to Alnwick from Newcastle on the X18 is over 80 miles iirc. The Alnwick to Berwick portion of the X18 is another 45, so that's 170 miles on one Newcastle - Berwick - Newcastle X18. 

Assuming 3-4 round trips Alnwick to Newcastle per day then that's 240-320 miles. 

Allowing for a couple of weeks off in total over the year for servicing, routine maintenance and periods VOR then you're looking at 90k per year easy - discounting light mileage. While 90k is a lot, what's more important is remembering that for the X18 and X93 this is at higher speed for periods - with inclines, stop-start sections and tight timetables thrown into the mix.

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(22 Feb 2020, 7:17 pm)Citaro5338 wrote When will 7510 get put on Ashingtons Express routes

Given that it tops out at about 40mph, not anytime soon. Does a job on the 35 though.

(21 Feb 2020, 11:09 pm)Jimmi wrote Some 6 boards interwork with scholars services that require double deckers so only really be able to move them around in the summer holidays.

It probably has a high enough PVR to keep those, though?

Don't know if I'm being biased here but after using the Coast Road services for the first time since GNE's Cobalt & Coast services were changed and observing loadings, it wouldn't surprise me if Arriva did the following:

- 306 & 308 reduced to every 20 mins each Mon-Fri.
- 306 & 308 reduced to every 60 mins each evenings (after approx 8.00pm Mon-Fri and 7.00 Sat & Sun) .
- Sunday daytimes unchanged.
- 51A extended to Marden Estate Mon - Sat.
- X6 withdrawn.

In fact, given the discussion about potential orders, it would fit in perfect as the PVR would only be 13x meaning that if new vehicles were ordered for the X21 / X22, the new PVR of 13x would be mostly covered using 7541-52 with the 13th vehicle being in the form of a 14 plate Sapphire E400.

In terms of dead mileage from the timetable I've produced,  there would be no 'cross route' dead mileage (306's running light from Tynemouth to Blyth or 308's running light from Blyth back to Jesmond).

I will upload the timetable / running board I've produced but struggling to upload from my laptop (maybe due to it being Windows  7 I guess??)

Having done some quick (ish) calculations now it's kinda scary to see just how much mileage, thus how hard our vehicles are worked. I took the X93 peak timetable as my example and if, I'm open to being corrected. my figures work out, it's in the region of 70,000 a month, give or take. From looking at our BTL9's and their live so far, am I right in assuming these vehicles have done in excess of 4 million miles ?? Maybe I'm wrong? It's a Sunday challenge for anyone interested.

(23 Feb 2020, 7:53 am)scanialover wrote Having done some quick (ish) calculations now it's kinda scary to see just how much mileage, thus how hard our vehicles are worked. I took the X93 peak timetable as my example and if, I'm open to being corrected. my figures work out, it's in the region of 70,000 a month, give or take. From looking at our BTL9's and their live so far, am I right in assuming these vehicles have done in excess of 4 million miles ?? Maybe I'm wrong? It's a Sunday challenge for anyone interested.

70k per month would imply around 2300 per day, indicating that from midnight to midnight the bus is driven constantly at near enough 100mph - both illegal and likely impossible. (Unless you're meaning the batch, however even in this case for most of the year only 5 are required per day - so it's likely nearer 50k per month as a maximum)

A round trip from Middlesbrough to Scarborough is around 100 miles. Having a quick look at bus times, I'm assuming that (roughly) each bus does 2 Middlesbrough round trips and 2 Scarborough-Whitby per day - giving total mileage per day around 300. Again assuming around 2 weeks off per year, you're looking at 100k per year.

While they do put in a lot of miles, here in this patch we dont have many services operating from as early in the morning till as late as some other parts of the country. Check out the Arriva app's live map sometime, you see nothing up here at 5 AM but loads in Arrivas other divisions, and the same late evenings too.

So I dont think the buses get as flogged to death as people might think, any issues are more likely down to the desire to buy as cheap and lightweight vehicles as possible.

I'm not knowledgeable about all the different types out there, but would whatever buses Coastliner use for their services not be a good idea for Arriva on the X15/X18/X93's? They have similarly long routes. But even then they replace and cascade their buses after a few years.

I could be, and happy to stand corrected here. How I got to my figures - a round trip M'bro to Scarborough is just over 100 miles, then a short - Whitby to Scarborough, which forms part of the X93 is equal to approximately 20 miles. From there I picked up the peak season X93 timetable and made it that there are/were 15 through journies and 15 short. That gave me a daily mileage, operated across the timetable and involving a number of vehicles, of just over 2000 miles a day; the rest in terms of weeks, months and years should (??) be academic. I wasn't trying to look at the one vehicle, just the timetable overall. Like I said, I could be wrong!

(23 Feb 2020, 10:29 am)scanialover wrote I could be, and happy to stand corrected here. How I got to my figures - a round trip M'bro to Scarborough is just over 100 miles, then a short - Whitby to Scarborough, which forms part of the X93 is equal to approximately 20 miles. From there I picked up the peak season X93 timetable and made it that there are/were 15 through journies and 15 short. That gave me a daily mileage, operated across the timetable and involving a number of vehicles, of just over 2000 miles a day; the rest in terms of weeks, months and years should (??) be academic. I wasn't trying to look at the one vehicle, just the timetable overall. Like I said, I could be wrong!

Worth remembering though that during the summer they bring in some extra deckers to operate all of those runs - and that only 5 out of 6 are required for the PVR the rest of the year. 

I'd reckon that at an absolute maximum, for the batch, you're looking at 3.5m miles. But then breaking that down to per vehicle, it's about 580,000. 

As a rough comparison:

Say a bus stays on the Newcastle to Ashington X22 all day (ignoring the X21 interworking, but that adds only about 5 miles per trip). 

Each round trip is 40 miles, at about 6 trips per day - more than that if they stay onto the evenings. That's 240 miles per day. 

The 14 plate E400s, or at least 7524-8, assuming that roughly half of their time has been spent doing Sundays and evenings, then you get to a figure of over 500k per vehicle over their 5.5 years - and that's excluding how frequently they get put on the X14/5/8 nowadays.

(23 Feb 2020, 10:28 am)tvd wrote While they do put in a lot of miles, here in this patch we dont have many services operating from as early in the morning till as late as some other parts of the country.  Check out the Arriva app's live map sometime, you see nothing up here at 5 AM but loads in Arrivas other divisions, and the same late evenings too.

So I dont think the buses get as flogged to death as people might think, any issues are more likely down to the desire to buy as cheap and lightweight vehicles as possible.

I'm not knowledgeable about all the different types out there, but would whatever buses Coastliner use for their services not be a good idea for Arriva on the X15/X18/X93's?  They have similarly long routes.  But even then they replace and cascade their buses after a few years.

B5TLs on the Coastliner, same as GNE are using on the X9/X10. 

Volvo chassis, though smaller engine than what is on offer from ADL. That GNE are trialling buses on the X9/X10 may indicate that they're looking into replacing the B5s on there within a couple of years - and the Transdev order announced the other day for E400s on The Witch Way and CityZap indicate that they're not too hot on the Volvo/Wright option. 

In fairness to Arriva they didn't buy on the cheap for the X93, with the B9TL likely the best option at the time. Equally ADL E400s, at least the later ones, have proved to be solid buses.

I was going top end with my calculations for the X93, using the peak timetable, which, I'm assuming has a PVR of 8. Then I was a little bit liberal with my reckoning and would say that over the year the total mileage operated here is likely to be in the region of 3 to 3.5 million.

Notwithstanding that it's an interesting part exercise in looking at just what sort of mileages are undertaken. Be kinda good to match this against the revenue generated, operating costs and investment but we don't get that information and I'm no statistician.

(22 Feb 2020, 10:54 pm)L469 YVK wrote Don't know if I'm being biased here but after using the Coast Road services for the first time since GNE's Cobalt & Coast services were changed and observing loadings, it wouldn't surprise me if Arriva did the following:

- 306 & 308 reduced to every 20 mins each Mon-Fri.
- 306 & 308 reduced to every 60 mins each evenings (after approx 8.00pm Mon-Fri and 7.00 Sat & Sun) .
- Sunday daytimes unchanged.
- 51A extended to Marden Estate Mon - Sat.
- X6 withdrawn.

In fact, given the discussion about potential orders, it would fit in perfect as the PVR would only be 13x meaning that if new vehicles were ordered for the X21 / X22, the new PVR of 13x would be mostly covered using 7541-52 with the 13th vehicle being in the form of a 14 plate Sapphire E400.

In terms of dead mileage from the timetable I've produced,  there would be no 'cross route' dead mileage (306's running light from Tynemouth to Blyth or 308's running light from Blyth back to Jesmond).

I will upload the timetable / running board I've produced but struggling to upload from my laptop (maybe due to it being Windows  7 I guess??)

I don't understand your obsession with decreasing the frequency of the 306 and 308. There have been no changes anywhere in the area which would result in passengers in using other services so if the numbers are down then they have more than likely moved to driving not to mention they've been every 15 minutes since forever.

I might just be stupid but I'd do the reverse and advertise it heavily from Rake Lane to Blyth as the more frequent service, cheaper and runs later and try and kill off the 309. Unless your going to Cobalt or going to Gateshead / Metro Centre then there's no benefit of using the 309 over the 308 as it's slower and now less frequent.

I know your basing this off the 309/310/311 but they a different problem in which Stagecoach is taking their passengers from Cobalt with the 1, 22 and 22X. If you live in the West End you can now get to Cobalt on a Stagecoach day ticket so there's no reason to use the GNE buses and that'll be the main reason their numbers are down. Not to mention now they're branded as Cobalt and Coast when 1/3 of the buses don't go to Cobalt and 2/3 of them don't go to the Coast. This doesn't affect Arriva as the 1 and 22 don't compete against any of the 306/308 anywhere.

Reducing the frequency is just a stupid idea when we're supposed to be getting people to use buses and not drive. The only thing I would do is remove the 306 from Battle Hill and have quicker services to Billy Mill / North Shields / Tynemouth.

(23 Feb 2020, 11:11 am)mb134 wrote B5TLs on the Coastliner, same as GNE are using on the X9/X10. 

Volvo chassis, though smaller engine than what is on offer from ADL. That GNE are trialling buses on the X9/X10 may indicate that they're looking into replacing the B5s on there within a couple of years - and the Transdev order announced the other day for E400s on The Witch Way and CityZap indicate that they're not too hot on the Volvo/Wright option. 

In fairness to Arriva they didn't buy on the cheap for the X93, with the B9TL likely the best option at the time. Equally ADL E400s, at least the later ones, have proved to be solid buses.

GNE confirmed that they are replacing the the B5s on the X9/X10 within the next year or two as the B5s just aren't suited to the motorway (which is the main part of the route), plus I believe the not so great reliability was also mentioned.
They're looking at either upgrading it to a coach type vehicle (hence the trials with the Panther LE) or they're seriously looking in to the Scania E400s.

From my personal experience, the B5s on the X9/X10 are absolutely horrendous, the engine is far too loud and the ride is awful.

The X9/10 has rarely had vehicles that are suited to the demands of the route, the predominance of which, as we know, is on the A19. I've experienced at all levels; back in the day when Tees ran it as a joint operation with a collection of elderly vehicles being literally hammered between Middlesbrough and Newcastle right through to now with these B5's which look the part but aren't suited to the route. I never got to ride on the Panther, only saw it at M'bro Bus Station when it was on trial; it sure looked the part and would be a great advert to promote the service, whether these could cope with the non-motorway sections of the route I don't know.

(23 Feb 2020, 6:41 pm)scanialover wrote The X9/10 has rarely had vehicles that are suited to the demands of the route, the predominance of which, as we know, is on the A19. I've experienced at all levels; back in the day when Tees ran it as a joint operation with a collection of elderly vehicles being literally hammered between Middlesbrough and Newcastle right through to now with these B5's which look the part but aren't suited to the route. I never got to ride on the Panther, only saw it at M'bro Bus Station when it was on trial; it sure looked the part and would be a great advert to promote the service, whether these could cope with the non-motorway sections of the route I don't know.

In terms of a bus, I don't think there's anything out there on the market that's suitable for the X9/X10 that won't require replacement after a few years. In recent years, Go North East have had 5-litre, 7-litre and 9-litre engined buses running on these routes, and all after a few years have started facing reliability issues.

It's not too bad a business model to have - run buses for a few years on the X9/X10 then replace them once they start having issues (cascading onto less demanding routes). Ensures X9/X10 always stay at the forefront of innovation and other services reap the benefits too.

The only thing that could feasibly operate the X9/X10 services without issue would be interdeck coaches, which are a) very expensive, and b) unsuitable for the 'local' sections of the route.

Realistically I don't think Go North East would be considering replacement of these buses this year if it wasn't for the Newcastle CAZ coming into effect from January 2021. It's unusual to see more than one of these buses off the road, and now there's two dedicated spare buses (6334 & 6335), one would presume the allocation of single-deck buses will be a lot less frequent.

(23 Feb 2020, 6:41 pm)scanialover wrote The X9/10 has rarely had vehicles that are suited to the demands of the route, the predominance of which, as we know, is on the A19. I've experienced at all levels; back in the day when Tees ran it as a joint operation with a collection of elderly vehicles being literally hammered between Middlesbrough and Newcastle right through to now with these B5's which look the part but aren't suited to the route. I never got to ride on the Panther, only saw it at M'bro Bus Station when it was on trial; it sure looked the part and would be a great advert to promote the service, whether these could cope with the non-motorway sections of the route I don't know.

Mechanically they'd be very capable, but they simply don't have the capacity without either increasing the frequency or ordering Panoramas - which would be even more expensive and then you struggle with what to do with them afterwards. I guess another issue with Panoramas is that you then have an 11 litre engine, further increasing costs. 

Standard E400MMCs have the 6.7L Cummins engine - a 34% increase in engine size on the B5TL, and are likely capable enough and would also be easier to displace onto other services afterwards. Scania MMCs obviously have the 9 litre engine but then are there many other routes in the GNE network which would need them over a standard MMC in the future? 

Aware this is verging into GNE discussion though so I'll stop there.

Whoops! My fault I think for not remembering bf where we are. It's been a long day !!

Whoops! My fault I think for not remembering bf where we are. It's been a long day !!

Now here's an improvement: arriva are actually communicating on social media about places they're unable to serve due to the snow.

(23 Feb 2020, 12:23 pm)Storx wrote I don't understand your obsession with decreasing the frequency of the 306 and 308. There have been no changes anywhere in the area which would result in passengers in using other services so if the numbers are down then they have more than likely moved to driving not to mention they've been every 15 minutes since forever.

See I think this is something that is hugely overlooked when it comes to Arriva, at least the Northumbria operations. Since the huge service changes at the start of the last decade, virtually everything has remained the same in terms of routes and frequencies. 

While there have been some alterations, such as the X20 up to Alnwick, the Blyth X30, 43 to Morpeth, by and large the (main) routes are the same. 

Then with frequencies, people know that if you're wanting to get from Morpeth to Newcastle there's a bus every 15 minutes, Bedlington to Newcastle every 10, Blyth to Morpeth/Ashington every 20 etc. While passenger numbers are falling across the country, this network stability is something that they need to take advantage of. If people know where the buses go and how often they are, improving vehicle quality on more of them may be the final push to get more people out of cars.

(25 Feb 2020, 7:01 pm)mb134 wrote See I think this is something that is hugely overlooked when it comes to Arriva, at least the Northumbria operations. Since the huge service changes at the start of the last decade, virtually everything has remained the same in terms of routes and frequencies. 

While there have been some alterations, such as the X20 up to Alnwick, the Blyth X30, 43 to Morpeth, by and large the (main) routes are the same. 

Then with frequencies, people know that if you're wanting to get from Morpeth to Newcastle there's a bus every 15 minutes, Bedlington to Newcastle every 10, Blyth to Morpeth/Ashington every 20 etc. While passenger numbers are falling across the country, this network stability is something that they need to take advantage of. If people know where the buses go and how often they are, improving vehicle quality on more of them may be the final push to get more people out of cars.

Well technically, it's every 20 mins if you take into account the 5/15 gaps as most passengers will end up using the X22 as that comes first. 

To be fair, Arriva ran a pretty stable network over the recent years. However, they do need serious fleet investment though. It would make sense now that the E400 comes with a 'ZF' stop-start option to replace the E400s on the X21 / X22 with 7541-50 to Blyth for the 308 (with 7551/52 as spares). X10 /X11 would also be another prime candidate for new vehicles too.

Going back to the Coast Road argument, it would be 6 and 2 3's either the 306 & 308 remaining at a 15 minute frequency or, reducing to a 20 minute frequency but both remaining on the Coast Road no longer serving Battle Hill Drive. However, with the news that GNE are dropping the 19, many passengers will be relying upon the X6 connection in Newcastle, which of course would either have to be withdrawn or worked using scholars / split shifts if the 306 & 308 was reduced to every 20 minutes. I think given the circumstances surrounding the 19, ANE will most likely stick with a 15 minute frequency on both services for the time being.

anyone know when arriva durhams fleet is set to have the new logo

Nick Knox and his shoddy company in the local news again? Dormanstown operated service 81 making the headlines. If, as Mr Knox claims "he takes pride in the network of services his company" what does losing a couple of quid matter?

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And then being to Newcastle today and isn't the operation by GNE just so much better than what we have down here on Teesside. New buses, branding everything about it.

(28 Feb 2020, 6:31 pm)scanialover wrote Nick Knox and his shoddy company in the local news again? Dormanstown operated service 81 making the headlines. If, as Mr Knox claims "he takes pride in the network of services his company" what does losing a couple of quid matter?

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And then being to Newcastle today and isn't the operation by GNE just so much better than what we have down here on Teesside. New buses, branding everything about it.

See that you're conveniently leaving out the cuts to some of the Tyneside GNE services. 

Putting a bus in service for a few hours extra per day also doesn't just cost "a couple of quid". 

Again, I'm aware Arriva are far from a shining example of an operator, but majority of buses on Teesside are nowhere near retirement age, and Arriva's policy is (and has always been) to invest in large bulks rather than a smaller batch every year.