You are quite right. Look at what I said about 1410. You'd think it difficult to re-furbish the fleet into standard livery but they got the Temsa Avenues; 4721-6 not done as yet for some unexplained reason, without too much fuss.

It's the mechanical side of things that needs addressing. Getting rid of all the niggling issues that seem to blight our fleets. Problem is that the vehicles are hard worked and aren't off the road long enough. It's a bit catch 22.

(08 Mar 2020, 7:18 pm)scanialover wrote Can agree, in part, with what is said about Arriva's drivers. There are a canny few diamonds out there who look the part and take pride in their job, but then there is a good percentage who undermine this with their attitude and lack of customer focus. OK it's not an easy position dealing with demanding timetables and often difficult passengers but that is the role in which they are trained. Add a point here, wasn't relevant until yesterday? Clipping the odd kerb is unavoidable but hitting just about every one, AKA my journey on the 1142 service 7 from Durham, was a bit much. Back to the driving school for him?

As for the fleet, what can one say? It's a mess! A complete mis-match of liveries and then styles within said liveries. What was the idea behind the latest standard livery which to bring the fleet into some sort of standardisation, cost a fortune

Then we have the issues raised against the Streetlites, MAX and Sapphire. All this came all singing and dancing but now look at it. Another mess, brand new vehicles which while not ideal should have been kept up to the spec and standard for which they were purchased .

And to finish. Just headed home on VDL Pulsar 1410 working a 29 trip out of Middlesbrough. I say this because here is a classic example of just where Arriva's fleet should be. Smart new livery externally, refurbished, or looked like it, internally and seemed to be mechanically sound. OK the NSA wasn't working but hey, do we need it?

This isn't a dig at you but people keep mentioning the bad state of Arriva buses but I just don't see it up here in Northumbria's area. I have used the X12 before once or twice and it's a right mixed bag, either really clean and actually pleasant bus or an actual disgrace.

The fact you've just said 1410 was alright kinda makes sense on the mixed bag and it seems there's a depot issue with Belmont being the worst of the lot with Darlington being a problem aswell but that's just an observation. I've never even seen a ripped seat before with anyone up here to be fair to all 3.

Tbf to Arriva though they're not the only ones with an identity crisis, GNE are just as bad but they've seemed to finally stuck with one.

(08 Mar 2020, 7:18 pm)scanialover wrote Can agree, in part, with what is said about Arriva's drivers. There are a canny few diamonds out there who look the part and take pride in their job, but then there is a good percentage who undermine this with their attitude and lack of customer focus. OK it's not an easy position dealing with demanding timetables and often difficult passengers but that is the role in which they are trained. Add a point here, wasn't relevant until yesterday? Clipping the odd kerb is unavoidable but hitting just about every one, AKA my journey on the 1142 service 7 from Durham, was a bit much. Back to the driving school for him?

As for the fleet, what can one say? It's a mess! A complete mis-match of liveries and then styles within said liveries. What was the idea behind the latest standard livery which to bring the fleet into some sort of standardisation, cost a fortune

Then we have the issues raised against the Streetlites, MAX and Sapphire. All this came all singing and dancing but now look at it. Another mess, brand new vehicles which while not ideal should have been kept up to the spec and standard for which they were purchased .

And to finish. Just headed home on VDL Pulsar 1410 working a 29 trip out of Middlesbrough. I say this because here is a classic example of just where Arriva's fleet should be. Smart new livery externally, refurbished, or looked like it, internally and seemed to be mechanically sound. OK the NSA wasn't working but hey, do we need it?

Sure, there are some good drivers, but I'm starting to see less and less of them!
One thing I've always liked about GNE is their drivers, for the most part anyway, they genuinely are canny drivers (as much as I hate that hashtag they keep promoting!)

I forgot that point you made about the drivers abilities as well! I wouldn't trust some of them pushing a trolley never mind driving a bus. I have a friend who joined Arriva as a driver not too long back, and he got the impression they were going to pass him regardless of whether he was any good or not because they were short of drivers.

(08 Mar 2020, 7:29 pm)S830OFT wrote Arriva will need to get their act together and invest way more in routes that generate the most revenue. I.e. Express services (X15/X18/X93)

Or, if you look at it from their perspective, those routes are already generating the most revenue, so passengers clearly don't mind it, so spend the money to change anything! (obviously not what I think!)

Had lovely ride on 1610 yesterday on the 5 from Shildon to BA. Abseloutley love those 67 plate Streetlites. I didn't think it would let me down as I am.a keen Streetlite fan and have had and enjoyed several rides on the 64 & 15 reg ones at Ashington, Jesmond & Belmont and 1610 completely amazed me hopefully arriva can get some more streetlites like 1602-14 in the near future as I would be happy with that.

(08 Mar 2020, 7:58 pm)scanialover wrote You are quite right. Look at what I said about 1410. You'd think it difficult to re-furbish the fleet into standard livery but they got the Temsa Avenues; 4721-6 not done as yet for some unexplained reason, without too much fuss.

It's the mechanical side of things that needs addressing. Getting rid of all the niggling issues that seem to blight our fleets. Problem is that the vehicles are hard worked and aren't off the road long enough. It's a bit catch 22.

Reason why 4721-4726 likely haven't been done as they were refurbished and repainted only a few years ago as they weren't originally part of the North East fleet. There's always going to be mechanical problems, it's just the way things have always been, it just seems more noticeable now with having more access to seeing when a bus is off the road or involved in an incident plus route branding and specs being different makes things look worse than previously, people barely battered an eyelid if a different bus type appeared, about the only time was when a double decker would turn up on a primarily single deck operated route.

(08 Mar 2020, 9:55 pm)GNE6312 wrote Had lovely ride on 1610 yesterday on the 5 from Shildon to BA. Abseloutley love those 67 plate Streetlites. I didn't think it would let me down as I am.a keen Streetlite fan and have had and enjoyed several rides on the 64 & 15 reg ones at Ashington, Jesmond & Belmont and 1610 completely amazed me hopefully arriva can get some more streetlites like 1602-14 in the near future as I would be happy with that.

As a regular passenger of the routes those are allocated to, can't say I share the same enthusiasm for them, sorry for sounding like a broken record but they're not particularly comfortable to travel on IMO with how much they rattle and clatter along and I found them intolerable during the summer months due to lack of ventilation mostly due to having all the windows at the front of the bus.

Before we get comments suggesting it's just enthusiasts that hate them, that is not the case... heard rumours suggesting the Darlington Moorsbus service will be going back to Pulsar operation again for this year as passengers were less than impressed with having them on that route, I had much the same issues with them on Dalesbus, felt like you were going to have a broken spine with how badly they took the road surfaces in places yet Solos didn't seem to be anywhere near as bad which is probs partly why none of the drivers want to do these routes anymore.

Some are better than others but overall not a massive fan of them myself.

(08 Mar 2020, 10:26 pm)Jimmi wrote As a regular passenger of the routes those are allocated to, can't say I share the same enthusiasm for them, sorry for sounding like a broken record but they're not particularly comfortable to travel on IMO with how much they rattle and clatter along and I found them intolerable during the summer months due to lack of ventilation mostly due to having all the windows at the front of the bus.

Before we get comments suggesting it's just enthusiasts that hate them, that is not the case... heard rumours suggesting the Darlington Moorsbus service will be going back to Pulsar operation again for this year as passengers were less than impressed with having them on that route, I had much the same issues with them on Dalesbus, felt like you were going to have a broken spine with how badly they took the road surfaces in places yet Solos didn't seem to be anywhere near as bad which is probs partly why none of the drivers want to do these routes anymore.

Some are better than others but overall not a massive fan of them myself.

I don't think there are any new buses that have a 'good' ride, I have a feeling it's down to the tyres they're using, more economical tyres tend to be firmer so aren't as good over potholes.
Having been on a Streetlite and E400MMC on the same route back-to-back, I don't think there's very much in it. The E400 might feel slightly more cushioned over the bumps, but like I say, not really noticeable.
The rattling, however, is something that the Streetlites are known for. But to be honest, I'm not sure whether it's down to the build quality, or just how badly the engine idles! Either way, it's awful.

(08 Mar 2020, 10:39 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't think there are any new buses that have a 'good' ride, I have a feeling it's down to the tyres they're using, more economical tyres tend to be firmer so aren't as good over potholes.
Having been on a Streetlite and E400MMC on the same route back-to-back, I don't think there's very much in it. The E400 might feel slightly more cushioned over the bumps, but like I say, not really noticeable.
The rattling, however, is something that the Streetlites are known for. But to be honest, I'm not sure whether it's down to the build quality, or just how badly the engine idles! Either way, it's awful.

Probs is the idle as it seems to be the same with panels at the rear on StreetDecks and Pulsars although I think if the rail on the emergency exit door was more secured it may make less of a racket and it yeah ride quality is pretty dire on everything now I've noticed. I travelled on some Volvo Olympians last weekend and it's amazing how much smoother of a ride they provided over what's about now, barely noticed any dents in the road and barely a rattle out of em.

(08 Mar 2020, 10:56 pm)Jimmi wrote Probs is the idle as it seems to be the same with panels at the rear on StreetDecks and Pulsars although I think if the rail on the emergency exit door was more secured it may make less of a racket and it yeah ride quality is pretty dire on everything now I've noticed. I travelled on some Volvo Olympians last weekend and it's amazing how much smoother of a ride they provided over what's about now, barely noticed any dents in the road and barely a rattle out of em.

Every time I get on one of GNE's L94s I'm always surprised how smooth the ride is! It's not perfect, but it's a whole lot better than anything new.

In fact, the only 'new' bus that I can think of that comes close is the Versa. As much as I don't particularly like them, I've always found the ride pretty good! Apparently GNE's new StreetDecks (when they arrive!) will have much improved suspension so I wonder if we'll start seeing a return to the smooth ride!

Regarding Temsa Avenue 4721-6? Wouldn't it seem logical to have these in the same livery as the rest, irregardless of when they were introduced.

With the livery situation I can never understand why the introduction of the new, standard livery when the original livery was far better and identifiable.

(08 Mar 2020, 5:23 pm)streetdeckfan wrote As I've said before, I don't have that much experience with Arriva as I lived deep in GNE territory for most of my life, it's only in the last 5 or so years that I've had to deal with them.
As much as I love complaining about them (I think we all do!), they don't do /that/ much bad, sure they have their bad points, but they also have some good ones as well! 
Bare in mind that my experience is limited to services that operate around County Durham

Some of my complaints about Arriva:

I've yet to see an Arriva driver that looks like they're enjoying their job, they always look miserable!
Many times I've had drivers that barely speaks English or doesn't know places along the route (usually a mix of both)

MAX and Sapphire are nothing more than a name at this point. Sapphire was meant to be their 'premium' service but that didn't last.
They have have so many different standard liveries floating about you'd think they were different operators!


I have no issue with getting older vehicles from other divisions, but when you 'upgrade' a route with 11 year old buses, that's when I start having issues
Their vehicles are pretty much always dirty inside
They never seem to repair damage to seats. There are seats on fairly new buses that are all ripped, and if you're lucky they're even taped up!

I would bring up timekeeping, but I know that's not always down to them. Although if the timetables were planned properly they could take this into account, especially if they're a regular occurrence.

But apart from that they're fine?!!

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(08 Mar 2020, 7:58 pm)scanialover wrote You are quite right. Look at what I said about 1410. You'd think it difficult to re-furbish the fleet into standard livery but they got the Temsa Avenues; 4721-6 not done as yet for some unexplained reason, without too much fuss.

It's the mechanical side of things that needs addressing. Getting rid of all the niggling issues that seem to blight our fleets. Problem is that the vehicles are hard worked and aren't off the road long enough. It's a bit catch 22.

Because 4721-6 were refurbished when they were acquired whereas the others hadn't been done since new, apart from 4700 which has had two repaints now.

(09 Mar 2020, 6:24 am)scanialover wrote Regarding Temsa Avenue 4721-6?  Wouldn't it seem logical to have these in the same livery as the rest, irregardless of when they were introduced.

With the livery situation I can never understand why the introduction of the new, standard livery when the original livery was far better and identifiable.

Why repaint them again just because they are the same make when there are other buses that haven't been repainted in 10 years?

Have to agree with Robin on this one, i would think the priority is getting the ones that havent been painted at all into the new livery rather than have a specific batch in the new livery,there are still buses knocking about in the original livery

You can see why Arriva service 81 between Guisborough and Stokesley is getting axed? Was on the 1348 trip ex Stokesley and all we carried between the two points was 3 or 4 individuals who did nothing but moan about Arriva and North Yorkshire County Council. I'll add that they were all travelling on concessionary passes so just how much revenue was generated there? Not enough to pay for the driver to have a pot of tea!! You can feel sorry for these people but times have changed.

On the same I'd be surprised if the 81 stays as it is come the next round of service revisions. Unless I'm missing something it doesn't seem to warrant two trips an hour

(09 Mar 2020, 5:02 pm)scanialover wrote You can see why Arriva service 81 between Guisborough and Stokesley is getting axed? Was on the 1348 trip ex Stokesley and all we carried between the two points was 3 or 4 individuals who did nothing but moan about Arriva and North Yorkshire County Council. I'll add that they were all travelling on concessionary passes so just how much revenue was generated there? Not enough to pay for the driver to have a pot of tea!! You can feel sorry for these people but times have changed.

On the same I'd be surprised if the 81 stays as it is come the next round of service revisions. Unless I'm missing something it doesn't seem to warrant two trips an hour

81 is only hourly now and has been for a good while. Only half hourly at peak times between Redcar and Guisborough - and those peak journeys are being axed in this set of changes as well

Thanks for that. Not been a regular on routes in that area I hadn't paid any attention to the changes apart from the dropping of the Guisboriugh - Stokesley section.

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Somebody mentioned that 4721 - 6 had been refurbished recently? When? 4721, which we on this afternoon, hasn't been, not internally anyway. One of the scruffiest, dirtiest examples there is.

I'm looking for the new tines, after April for services X93/94? Perhaps someone can help with a link. Thanks.

(09 Mar 2020, 6:12 pm)scanialover wrote I'm looking for the new tines, after April for services X93/94? Perhaps someone can help with a link. Thanks.

If you go on Traveline and you search X94 from when the service starts in April you can find the times between Whitby and Scarborough, Middlesbrough to Whitby section not showing for some reason but is just three runs from Middlesbrough at the start of the day and back in the evening like in previous years (0750, 0850, 0950 in the morning from Middlesbrough and 1630, 1735, 1835 from Scarborough in the evenings). Think there's a few later runs this year too.

Traveline link: https://www.traveline.info

Summary of Darlington changes now appearing on buses.

X93/X94 timetable from 5th April can also be found on the Arriva website:
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/north-east/s...n=outbound

(09 Mar 2020, 6:50 pm)Jimmi wrote If you go on Traveline and you search X94 from when the service starts in April you can find the times between Whitby and Scarborough, Middlesbrough to Whitby section not showing for some reason but is just three runs from Middlesbrough at the start of the day and back in the evening like in previous years (0750, 0850, 0950 in the morning from Middlesbrough and 1630, 1735, 1835 from Scarborough in the evenings). Think there's a few later runs this year too.

Traveline link: https://www.traveline.info

Summary of Darlington changes now appearing on buses.

About time they moved something off Tubwell row back to round the corner, at times there always a queue around that part of the time due to stand H,I,J being the three busiest stops in the town

https://twitter.com/arrivanortheast/stat...31808?s=19

Intregueing! Wonder what is being filmed?

(09 Mar 2020, 5:02 pm)scanialover wrote You can see why Arriva service 81 between Guisborough and Stokesley is getting axed? Was on the 1348 trip ex Stokesley and all we carried between the two points was 3 or 4 individuals who did nothing but moan about Arriva and North Yorkshire County Council. I'll add that they were all travelling on concessionary passes so just how much revenue was generated there? Not enough to pay for the driver to have a pot of tea!! You can feel sorry for these people but times have changed.

On the same I'd be surprised if the 81 stays as it is come the next round of service revisions. Unless I'm missing something it doesn't seem to warrant two trips an hour

Mind, I decided to go down and try the 81 today, and was surprised at how busy the service was. I was on the 1035 ex Redcar and loadings were very good, especially on our way out of Guisborough, where it acts as effectively as the town service. There were 10 passengers heading to points beyond Guisborough, with most getting off at Stokesley but some at Great Ayton too (which reminds me - scrapping that section of the 81 will make Roseberry Topping significantly harder to access by bus). On my return I took the 28A which gets busy once you get into urban Middlesbrough, but was actually quieter than that 81 south of Nunthorpe.

The demographics of the route would be a concern either way though - just like you I noticed the vast majority of passengers were concessionary pass holders. But it didn't strike me as a service which has no demand.

I must assume that it's the overall passenger usage that dictates what happens here with, again I'm assuming, that most usage is generated between Guisborough and Redcar?

Regarding Roseberry Topping? Isn't this within the domain served by the news Tees Flex operation?

Service 28/28a. Quite a demanding route I would say. Little wonder that drivers enjoy a 13 minute layover at Stokesley. How many times is this eaten in to to keep the service on time? No idea what happens on the Lingdake trips? 13 minutes sat up there must seem like a lifetime!!

(10 Mar 2020, 8:26 pm)BoroLad wrote Mind, I decided to go down and try the 81 today, and was surprised at how busy the service was. I was on the 1035 ex Redcar and loadings were very good, especially on our way out of Guisborough, where it acts as effectively as the town service. There were 10 passengers heading to points beyond Guisborough, with most getting off at Stokesley but some at Great Ayton too (which reminds me - scrapping that section of the 81 will make Roseberry Topping significantly harder to access by bus). On my return I took the 28A which gets busy once you get into urban Middlesbrough, but was actually quieter than that 81 south of Nunthorpe.

The demographics of the route would be a concern either way though - just like you I noticed the vast majority of passengers were concessionary pass holders. But it didn't strike me as a service which has no demand.

But that's exactly the point - it's the *evening* service that's being cut. 

10:35 is peak time for people travelling on concession passes, just enough time for them to get into town, have a coffee and a look at the shops before getting a bus home in time for lunch.

Anecdotally buses are always packed with concessions in the mid to late morning, with fare paying customers making up the bulk of the morning peak, evening and night time passengers.

Exactly the point of what? The 81 enjoyed an evening service for sometime, it's the section of the route between Guisborough and Stokesley that is being cut.

Again I would reiterate that for those wanting to be at Roseberry Topping et al this is where Tees Flex should come into play. For those few wishing to travel off Guisborough into Great Ayton/Stokesley then the connection option from service 5/5a onto service 28a at Swan's Corner isn't as bad as might be feared.

(10 Mar 2020, 9:19 pm)scanialover wrote Exactly the point of what? The 81 enjoyed an evening service for sometime, it's the section of the route between Guisborough and Stokesley that is being cut.

Again I would reiterate that for those wanting to be at Roseberry Topping et al this is where Tees Flex should come into play. For those few wishing to travel off Guisborough into Great Ayton/Stokesley then the connection option from service 5/5a onto service 28a at Swan's Corner isn't as bad as might be feared.

I've checked and Tees Flex is much further east, and also doesn't extend into North Yorkshire. It is odd that instead of serving areas where it could be of use, Tees Flex in East Cleveland seems to be focused on competing with Arriva's conventional routes - the other two zones usually manage to avoid quite such obvious competition.

(10 Mar 2020, 11:43 am)Andreos1 wrote https://twitter.com/arrivanortheast/stat...31808?s=19

Intregueing! Wonder what is being filmed?

My guess is either Vera or something requiring a dramatic viaduct scene.

(10 Mar 2020, 9:19 pm)scanialover wrote Exactly the point of what? The 81 enjoyed an evening service for sometime, it's the section of the route between Guisborough and Stokesley that is being cut.

Again I would reiterate that for those wanting to be at Roseberry Topping et al this is where Tees Flex should come into play. For those few wishing to travel off Guisborough into Great Ayton/Stokesley then the connection option from service 5/5a onto service 28a at Swan's Corner isn't as bad as might be feared.

Seems I misread the initial service change memo, apologies! I was under the impression that it was only that section of route in the evening that was being axed, not that section for the entire day. 

However the point about concessions still stands, if that's all that the service is getting on then there's not a chance its viable.

(10 Mar 2020, 9:19 pm)scanialover wrote Exactly the point of what? The 81 enjoyed an evening service for sometime, it's the section of the route between Guisborough and Stokesley that is being cut.

Again I would reiterate that for those wanting to be at Roseberry Topping et al this is where Tees Flex should come into play. For those few wishing to travel off Guisborough into Great Ayton/Stokesley then the connection option from service 5/5a onto service 28a at Swan's Corner isn't as bad as might be feared.

Issue is a service needs passenger demand pretty much at all points in the day that the service operates, sadly the odd journey here and there carrying reasonable numbers ain't enough to keep a service afloat especially if vast majority are concession pass holders especially in North Yorkshire where the pass reimbursement rates are supposedly rather low.

This is what I said. There will be journies on the 81 that "appear" to be busy but then if the majority of these passengers are concessionary pass holders or students then revenue is limited. Be interesting to know, if anyone does, just what the reimbursement from the two councils, through which the service operates is. I'm sure this will have been a factor during the consultation/decision process. I know, incidentally, from what I've heard is that North Yorkshire County Council were consulted with regard to funding the missing section of the route and they declined; in this age where councils have to look very carefully at budgets and such like you can understand why? It just wasn't/isn't viable.

My journey on the 81 had say 6 passengers on it from Stokesley into Guisborough, all including myself, concessionary pass holders. The 'need to travel' for these I don't know but then in deciding
whether a service is viable or not it's the cash over the counter that matters and if the reimbursement from these passes is as low as I think then it really is case closed.

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Something else I've looked at recently? The demands placed on Arriva drivers in taking their vehicles along some, if not all of the routes they operate. Weaving along and through the many estate roads with the attendant parked vehicles, speed humps/restrictions then children and people is quite a challenge against the need to maintain timings, I'm sure consideration was given when these routes were decided but I just couldn't help thinking how difficult and challenging the role of a PCV driver is and adding my admiration for what they do.

To put a real world figure in play, in the Tees Valley the combined authority (5 councils) come together and each pass is reimbursed at a rate of 50% of the services’ average fare, though I know due to their size an annual figure is agreed for both Arriva & Stagecoach regardless of how many they accept. At Stagecarriage we were getting not far north of £1 per pass on the X8. NYCC is widely known to pay around 20-25% of the average fare, which I’m guessing on the 81 will be in the region of £2.50? Therefore they’re likely getting somewhere around 50-60p per pass scan on the 81 in North Yorkshire, so you can see that 6 or 7 concessions on the bus does not make money, the hour’s operating cost from Guisborough to Stokesley & back will be nowhere near being covered. Unfortunately that is the reality of operating in rural areas.