(08 Mar 2020, 9:00 pm)streetdeckfan wrote GNE haven't submitted their accounts for 2019 just yet, but in 2018 they made a profit of about £4 million after taxes

To put that in to perspective, they spent about £8 million on the StreetDecks that haven't arrived yet

Actually, reading a more, that's the year they bought EY, so I wonder if that's taken in to account. Frankly it's been far too long since I did my accountancy course to remember how to read them!

Buying buses and EY aren't an expense so they won't be on the income statement. Depreciation will be though however, I'd assume it'd be a straight line of upto 15 years (depending on bus) so there will be expensives for every bus in the fleet. EY will never be on it, unless they revaluate the property. Potentially there could be interest aswell as I doubt they'll pay the full amount up front or take a loan.

That's also for June 2017 to June 2018 not the year 2018.

Having travelled on the 21 to Chester-le-Street for a shopping visit to Tesco last week, I asked my Mother how much she reckoned it cost me to get from Barley Mow to Chester-le-Street.

She said £1.20. It's actually £2.30.

Her reaction: WHAT, to get to Chester!?

This is exactly why she uses her car, and I suspect many others. £2.30 for a 5 minute journey!

(14 Apr 2020, 8:22 am)LeeCalder wrote Having travelled on the 21 to Chester-le-Street for a shopping visit to Tesco last week, I asked my Mother how much she reckoned it cost me to get from Barley Mow to Chester-le-Street.

She said £1.20. It's actually £2.30.

Her reaction: WHAT, to get to Chester!?

This is exactly why she uses her car, and I suspect many others. £2.30 for a 5 minute journey!

As I understand it, it's not necessarily about the distance of the journey, but about how many fare stages it goes through (Is that the correct terminology?)

While I don't know exactly how it works, I believe the price is determined by how many main stops you pass, that's why if you look at your ticket the 'valid to' it may not necessarily be the stop you asked for. I don't know if it still works the same as I haven't bought a ticket in years, but the 'boarding stage' might be miles away from where you boarded as that would be the start of that 'stage'.

After a quick play around with the fare calculator, it seems you were just on the wrong edge of the fare stage as it's the same price from the far end of Birtley as it is from Barley Mow

Barley Mow to CLS ~1.5 miles £2.30
Birtley Coach and Horses  to CLS ~3.3 miles also £2.30

It'd be quite interesting to see what is the furthest you can go for each ticket price, I'd imagine it would vary greatly by area!
To go from Bishop Auckland to West Auckland, for instance, which is a distance of ~4 miles is only £1.60

its worse when you board a bus to Newcastle... lets say the 56 and its £3.20. But the next day you board at the same stop lets say the 28 and its only £230. That is confusing

(14 Apr 2020, 12:19 pm)streetdeckfan wrote As I understand it, it's not necessarily about the distance of the journey, but about how many fare stages it goes through (Is that the correct terminology?)

While I don't know exactly how it works, I believe the price is determined by how many main stops you pass, that's why if you look at your ticket the 'valid to' it may not necessarily be the stop you asked for. I don't know if it still works the same as I haven't bought a ticket in years, but the 'boarding stage' might be miles away from where you boarded as that would be the start of that 'stage'.

After a quick play around with the fare calculator, it seems you were just on the wrong edge of the fare stage as it's the same price from the far end of Birtley as it is from Barley Mow

Barley Mow to CLS ~1.5 miles £2.30
Birtley Coach and Horses  to CLS ~3.3 miles also £2.30

It'd be quite interesting to see what is the furthest you can go for each ticket price, I'd imagine it would vary greatly by area!
To go from Bishop Auckland to West Auckland, for instance, which is a distance of ~4 miles is only £1.60

I'm well aware of how fare stages work, thanks...

Try telling that to a non-bus user and regardless of the explanation they'll still think it's too expensive.

(14 Apr 2020, 12:37 pm)LeeCalder wrote I'm well aware of how fare stages work, thanks...

Try telling that to a non-bus user and regardless of the explanation they'll still think it's too expensive.

Maybe if GNE published a fares table that showed how the tickets work it would be a lot less confusing!

I've said many times in this topic that if you're just doing quick hop on-hop off journeys, buses aren't exactly the best value for money, but when you compare it to the full price of running a car (insurance, tax, fuel, depreciation etc.) they're still not 'expensive'.

Sure, if you already have a car then it may seem expensive, but if you don't have one, then it's still cheaper to pay the single ticket price, and if you use it regularly, it's waaay cheaper to buy a multi use ticket.

(14 Apr 2020, 12:46 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Maybe if GNE published a fares table that showed how the tickets work it would be a lot less confusing!

I've said many times in this topic that if you're just doing quick hop on-hop off journeys, buses aren't exactly the best value for money, but when you compare it to the full price of running a car (insurance, tax, fuel, depreciation etc.) they're still not 'expensive'.

Sure, if you already have a car then it may seem expensive, but if you don't have one, then it's still cheaper to pay the single ticket price, and if you use it regularly, it's waaay cheaper to buy a multi use ticket.

Its not so much the fare stages its also the luxury of wi fi. Tables.double decker with a view etc. 
I've had this argument for years.  Gateshead to QE hospital is or was priced differently to whichever service you use. X1. 25 28or 56.
Fair enough it's been a couple of years since I did the journey, but when I did, I was quoted about going to Tescos and being offered cheap bread or quality bread. And it's the same thing on a bus apparently.    Are there any other buses go Barley Mow to Chester, if so are they the same or different.

(14 Apr 2020, 12:46 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Maybe if GNE published a fares table that showed how the tickets work it would be a lot less confusing!

I've said many times in this topic that if you're just doing quick hop on-hop off journeys, buses aren't exactly the best value for money, but when you compare it to the full price of running a car (insurance, tax, fuel, depreciation etc.) they're still not 'expensive'.

Sure, if you already have a car then it may seem expensive, but if you don't have one, then it's still cheaper to pay the single ticket price, and if you use it regularly, it's waaay cheaper to buy a multi use ticket.

You keeping saying buses are cheaper but I'm sorry for 99% of people it's just not true. Unless your a single person, living alone, who only shops online that never travels with anyone and never goes away to other cities or the countryside then it's not cheaper at all. Buses don't go where people want to be, Teeside Park, Team Valley etc and you can't just tell people they can't go there.

Unless you live 4 mile max from the centre of Newcastle, Sunderland or Middlesbrough and possibly some of the larger towns like Bishop, Darlington etc then buses will never ever be a reasonable choice for families or really anyone as there's no way bus companies can create routes which the communities want because of random out of town shopping places dotted all over.

If bus companies and councils around here want to serously want to make buses seem attrative they need to look at ways at making travelling by car then using the bus or metro attractive together not against each other by things such as P&R etc. Right now though no-one would consider it as the price of buses are way to expensive to pay the extra on top of also paying for the car etc.

Also GNE would never share a fare table, you don't publish things that push people away from using your services, it's a horrid system which punishes people who just live over zones.

if someone tried to compare a bus journey of exactly the same route but one cost more (nearly 50% more) due to the bus being 5 years newer i shove the bread.........

if we are using that logic the new buses that are more fuel efficient should be dirt cheap.... and anyone who used the buses on the loop before they were getting replace should have been paying 50 quid a mile!

(14 Apr 2020, 5:12 pm)Rob44 wrote if someone tried to compare a bus journey of exactly the same route but one cost more  (nearly 50% more)  due to the bus being 5 years newer i shove the bread.........

if we are using that logic the new buses that are more fuel efficient should be dirt cheap.... and anyone who used the buses on the loop before they were getting replace should have been paying 50 quid a mile!

Don't forget, those fuel efficient new buses, are attracting all sorts of BSOG support, meaning they cost less to run than the older equivalent you would be paying less to travel on.

(14 Apr 2020, 2:23 pm)ifm001 wrote Its not so much the fare stages its also the luxury of wi fi. Tables.double decker with a view etc. 
I've had this argument for years.  Gateshead to QE hospital is or was priced differently to whichever service you use. X1. 25 28or 56.
Fair enough it's been a couple of years since I did the journey, but when I did, I was quoted about going to Tescos and being offered cheap bread or quality bread. And it's the same thing on a bus apparently.    Are there any other buses go Barley Mow to Chester, if so are they the same or different.

Yes, there are other buses. The half hourly MAX X12, which is 30p cheaper.

(14 Apr 2020, 4:02 pm)Storx wrote Also GNE would never share a fare table, you don't publish things that push people away from using your services, it's a horrid system which punishes people who just live over zones.

Disagree with this statement.

I'd say faretables are quite difficult to understand for 'the normal customer'. We, as enthusiasts or people with an interest in the industry, understand how faretables work and would probably assume they're simple to follow, but that's really not the case. A lot of customers struggle to read a timetable and in my opinion they're easier to follow than a faretable.

The website has a fares finder and more work is going into this so you can plan your journey to work out the best value fare (rather than the current website where you've got to select your most appropriate farestage - which I still think is better than a faretable, but not the best in that some faretables have relatively few stages so it might not be particularly relevant if you're no where near that stage). Improving the journey planner to incorporate fares is the way forward, not faretables.

(15 Apr 2020, 8:05 am)LeeCalder wrote Yes, there are other buses. The half hourly MAX X12, which is 30p cheaper.

I think ifm001 was probably meaning any other Go North East services - there are a number of pricing anomalies from the Huntley era, such as the Old Durham Road example, where the X1 was deemed more premium than the 56 and 57, so a premium fare was charged accordingly. The 57 also, by legacy, has a very cheap flat fare.

That isn't the case with Barley Mow to Chester-le-Street - the 21, 25 and X22 all charge the same £2.30 fare and it's the downside of the legacy fare structure really (it's £2.30 all the way from the Coach & Horses in Birtley!)

Whilst my personal opinion that £2.30 is quite expensive for such a short journey, I'd say that it's appropriately priced if the competition (two buses per hour) is 30p cheaper. Go North East has nine more buses per hour on this corridor than Arriva (eight buses per hour on the 21, two buses per hour on the 25 and one bus per hour on the X22). The sheer volume of extra buses justifies the more premium price in my view.

I can understand the x1 being more than the 57. 25 etc but the 56 also charges 320 from the qe to newcastle. Is that because the orange paint is more expensive then red or blue? And almost 50% more per single ticket. No wonder customers are using private transport more.

(15 Apr 2020, 10:05 am)Rob44 wrote I can understand the x1 being more than the 57. 25 etc but the 56 also charges 320 from the qe to newcastle. Is that because the orange paint is more expensive then red or blue? And almost 50% more per single ticket. No wonder customers are using private transport more.

Frequent services attract the twirlies.
Operators then benefit from the single fare system in place for reimbursement? Perhaps...

Meanwhile the ordinary punter paying single fares are shafted and are put off using the bus.

(15 Apr 2020, 8:52 am)Dan wrote Disagree with this statement.

They're horrid around here I'm not sure whether it's a mistake or a pricing error but the 19 pricing around is a right mess and it just shows how it doesn't work in places.

Just for an example:
Northumberland Park -> Holywell Milbourne Arms - £1.70
Northumberland Park -> Holywell, End of Tillmouth Avenue - £3.10

It's literally 500m or so and your getting charged an extra £1.40 yet the same fare goes all the way through to High Pit which is about 3 mile in the other direction.

People would use it more if you made it cheaper and actually advertise the connection with the metro but it's just too much atm to be viable especially when you have to throw the Metro on top (we have no intermodel tickets here). It'd be £6.00 for a single using the 19 / Metro combo and even more for a return £9.00'ish. If you dropped it a bit to say £2.10 with a £3.50'ish return you'd have a chance to take some punters off the X7 as it's a joke at rush hour or even the 57 (which is cheaper including the extra zone and more frequent) and wouldn't actually be much more with the chance to get to more places at the same time or at least let upto the hospital be in the North Tyne zone. It's £4 from Seaton Sluice to Newcastle, yet we pay £5.10 for a return to Northumberland Park.

I know on the questionaire you asked about it when it first started but it just never happened.

There's a certain set of passenger who isn't really interested in tables, wifi, leather seats etc and that's a difficult market that you probably won't ever capture with pricing. They seem to be the ones that are the biggest complainers. They are predominantly car users. They only use the bus if they fancy a few drinks or perhaps are going to the match. You have to tempt them away from taxis. They don't care about net spend on Streetdecks, they want a cheap convenient ride that's on time and that's it.

(17 Apr 2020, 11:57 am)Ambassador wrote There's a certain set of passenger who isn't really interested in tables, wifi, leather seats etc and that's a difficult market that you probably won't ever capture with pricing. They seem to be the ones that are the biggest complainers. They are predominantly car users. They only use the bus if they fancy a few drinks or perhaps are going to the match. You have to tempt them away from taxis. They don't care about net spend on Streetdecks, they want a cheap convenient ride that's on time and that's it.

..and that's the intention of the new evening and group tickets launched not too long ago at GNE.

(17 Apr 2020, 12:38 pm)Dan wrote ..and that's the intention of the new evening and group tickets launched not too long ago at GNE.

It is pleasing to see GNE be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world by the new Team.

I wonder if a rival Magpie Mover type scheme could work for matchdays or even weekend tickets

(15 Apr 2020, 10:05 am)Rob44 wrote I can understand the x1 being more than the 57. 25 etc but the 56 also charges 320 from the qe to newcastle. Is that because the orange paint is more expensive then red or blue? And almost 50% more per single ticket. No wonder customers are using private transport more.

If you get on at the Church Road bus stop rather than the Ambulance station, it goes down from £3.10 to £2.30 on the 56. The 57 is different as it's £2.30 all the way from Wardley, yet in my experience, people let both the 57 go past to get the more expensive 56 and 58 where they share the same corridor, despite similar timing. Clearly doesn't effect passenger usage as more people get the 56 and 58, so I don't know why they'd change it?

I'd been on the fence with regard to re-regulation of the bus industry but the current crisis has, to me, confirmed the present system is failing. Everyone is in agreement that bus services are essential, yet the operators are left to decide which services get to stay. More generally, the industry as a whole is in a state of managed decline, with a vicious cycle of milage reductions and falling passenger numbers. So often as these cuts are announced there's justifications from the operator and commentators that a vehicle must make money to be on the road. This whole paradigm is wrong. It would be the equivalent of saying rail must make a return yet the Northern franchise requires a huge subsidy to keep trains moving. Likewise, no-one expects infrastructure like roads and motorways to make money - investment is justified through the indirect benefits to the economy. We're all suddenly housebound and the economy has ground to a halt. Buses are a means of moving people and therefore money around the region and therefore their benefit shouldn't solely be measured by what's returned in the fare box.

Not only is the current system poor for the passenger, it's also poor for the operator. Some of the big groups are returning stable profits but truly all they can hope to do is tread water. Expansion through acquisition may be possible in some cases but inevitably the market will shrink this year, next year, and the year after that. New housing developments should be seen as an opportunity for new services yet the set-up costs are prohibitive of this happening commercially. The thought of a new commercial operator in 2020 is almost laughable. This lack of scope for growth should set alarm bells ringing in any industry.

Buses could be ran with objectives other than profit. These could be along the lines of ensuring urban populations are within 500m of a regular service, rural communities of over 1000 people are connected at least twice a week or bus services are incorporated into new developments from the beginning, ending the current bus deserts that come with new housing. Flat fare and single operator brand would be so much more accessible for the general public. No more of the pricing anomalies/legacy pricing/gouging as discussed above.

Quite how this comes about is much more complicated. Nexus and tfgm made or are making a hash of their franchising proposals and by all accounts the 'Transport for Cornwall' project had good promise in improving services but has been badly executed, Covid or no Covid. What seems clear is this crisis is going to leave the bus operators much worse of which will only accelerate the vicious cut, decline, cut cycle and bus policy may well be even further down the political agenda than usual. This crisis has seen how quickly legislation and change can be made when it it really needed, perhaps when the primary health crisis is over the government should keep up the pace when it comes to bus reform.

Yes I knew church road was cheaper. But the 28 is also 230 from the ambulance station compared tot eh 320 on 56. Its not going to help the " get out your car and on the bus " cause if your decided to ditch the car and get the bus and its 230 then then next time you catch a different colour bus, maybe a double rather than single but you get charged almost 50% more to get to the same destination using the same route!

(17 Apr 2020, 12:49 pm)Ambassador wrote It is pleasing to see GNE be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world by the new Team.

I wonder if a rival Magpie Mover type scheme could work for matchdays or even weekend tickets

Welcome back! 


Like you, I welcome the changes. However, I don't think they're enough. 

Some single fares may have been 'frozen', but others haven't. Others have increased beyond inflation and that's on top of the prices that some would say were already high.

There's all this talk of legacy fares or processes introduced/overseen by someone who left the company in 2011.
We are on to the second head honcho since then.
We are also on to the umpteenth colour scheme and logo design since then.

Yet we are talking about a fare structure which hasn't changed, hasn't improved - yet is still full of flaws and anomalies.

There's 60 odd pages of debate, discussion and whatever else in this thread, over a 7 year period* and still the same issues are being raised. 

* 7 years of my life on this forum... fml

If bus companies want to get people out their cars, in my opinion, they should be focusing on journeys which car users are likely to make, in order to temp them in.

Surely car users are more likely to catch a bus to Chester-le-Street, from Barley Mow (a 5 minute journey) to do a bit of shopping, providing the price is right, as opposed to get the bus into Newcastle, which would mean they're sat on a bus for ever and a day.

The pricing structure needs to reflect that, make it as cheap as you possibly can to catch a bus to the next town, CLS in this instance, and surely you will see passenger growth?

The pricing structure for single journeys is dire, and car users are never going to use the bus if it costs them £2.30 for a 5 minute journey.

(18 Apr 2020, 11:05 am)Andreos1 wrote Welcome back! 


Like you, I welcome the changes. However, I don't think they're enough. 

Some single fares may have been 'frozen', but others haven't. Others have increased beyond inflation and that's on top of the prices that some would say were already high.

There's all this talk of legacy fares or processes introduced/overseen by someone who left the company in 2011.
We are on to the second head honcho since then.
We are also on to the umpteenth colour scheme and logo design since then.

Yet we are talking about a fare structure which hasn't changed, hasn't improved - yet is still full of flaws and anomalies.

There's 60 odd pages of debate, discussion and whatever else in this thread, over a 7 year period* and still the same issues are being raised. 

* 7 years of my life on this forum... fml

Why thank you, glad to see not much has changed.  Yes there does seem to be a sort of 'blame the Labour Govt for overspending in 2010' vibe around the GNE response (this isn't a dig) but it's convenient.

(20 Apr 2020, 8:28 am)LeeCalder wrote If bus companies want to get people out their cars, in my opinion, they should be focusing on journeys which car users are likely to make, in order to temp them in.

Surely car users are more likely to catch a bus to Chester-le-Street, from Barley Mow (a 5 minute journey) to do a bit of shopping, providing the price is right, as opposed to get the bus into Newcastle, which would mean they're sat on a bus for ever and a day.

The pricing structure needs to reflect that, make it as cheap as you possibly can to catch a bus to the next town, CLS in this instance, and surely you will see passenger growth?

The pricing structure for single journeys is dire, and car users are never going to use the bus if it costs them £2.30 for a 5 minute journey.

I can see where you are coming from with this, but in the case of Birtley, you could be nearer Low Fell than Chester, depending on where you board. 
Then there could also be the issue of taking trade away from the shops and facilities on Durham Road. 

I do think that something needs doing, but if the main morning peak flow is towards Newcastle due to work reasons, if they lowered fares towards Chester, it wouldn't necessarily attract many more punters. 

When the 26 ran between Newcastle and Barley Mow, it was given approx 30mins between Gateshead and Dorset Avenue. It was rarely late. 
In the period since, the duration of the trip from Durham Road to Gateshead is a lottery, cos of all the traffic on the road. Bus use has decreased, yet car use has increased.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that fares will have played a part in that modal change. 

The fare you were charged, is bonkers imo. Can't see any justification or reasoning for it at all and it certainly won't tempt people to make the switch. WiFi, tables or not. 

(20 Apr 2020, 8:52 am)Ambassador wrote Why thank you, glad to see not much has changed.  Yes there does seem to be a sort of 'blame the Labour Govt for overspending in 2010' vibe around the GNE response (this isn't a dig) but it's convenient.

Too convenient I think. Lazy perhaps.
A business needs to move and adapt (more so than paint jobs, logos and tables).
Value for money being a key part of that change. If punters don't think the purchase is value for money, they won't buy it.

when i was in high school i used to go to gosforth for shopping for my parents as wee didn't have a car. Some times id only have 4 bags, sometime 6 or even 8!! now my point being in those days you had room above the front wheels on both sides to put your bags, under the stairs being my choice!!! Try doing that on the new buses!!! Christ on some of those (merc??) single deckers the luggage compartment was at the back of the vehicle!

My point being it could be free to use the bus but if its easier you use the car your going to do that arnt you.

The next big issue is post lockdown.

Even with a gradual return the reality is many of us won't see the inside of our offices potentially until next year. The likes of Zoom and Microsoft Teams have opened the eyes of even the most hardened IT critic. Equally some businesses who were already struggling simply won't survive. Then there's a confidence issue of passengers themselves (how many parents - where they can - will now drive little Jimmy and Jane to school instead of risking their little darlings on a bus?)

This of course means the same passengers numbers won't be there and I think Martijn G and the Team at GNE are very aware of that but it's a huge challenge for them and even before COVID-19 it was already a big ask. Sellable assets aren't assets if you're competitors are equally in the same position which rules out an immediate cash flow solution.

It's a balancing act between enticing passengers back and paying your costs and it's going to be like that across most of business, however I think for public transport (buses in particular) it will be a much much bigger challenge

(20 Apr 2020, 3:32 pm)Ambassador wrote The next big issue is post lockdown.

Even with a gradual return the reality is many of us won't see the inside of our offices potentially until next year. The likes of Zoom and Microsoft Teams have opened the eyes of even the most hardened IT critic. Equally some businesses who were already struggling simply won't survive. Then there's a confidence issue of passengers themselves (how many parents - where they can - will now drive little Jimmy and Jane to school instead of risking their little darlings on a bus?)

This of course means the same passengers numbers won't be there and I think Martijn G and the Team at GNE are very aware of that but it's a huge challenge for them and even before COVID-19 it was already a big ask. Sellable assets aren't assets if you're competitors are equally in the same position which rules out an immediate cash flow solution.

It's a balancing act between enticing passengers back and paying your costs and it's going to be like that across most of business, however I think for public transport (buses in particular) it will be a much much bigger challenge

I wonder if we could see some of GNE's staff start to work from home permanently. There's no need for customer service staff to work in the office and that could save quite a bit if they don't need as much office space
How many people work in the Bensham office, and if more work from home could there be the potential to move the staff that need to work in an office to work from the depots?

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(20 Apr 2020, 3:37 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I wonder if we could see some of GNE's staff start to work from home permanently. There's no need for customer service staff to work in the office and that could save quite a bit if they don't need as much office space
How many people work in the Bensham office, and if more work from home could there be the potential to move the staff that need to work in an office to work from the depots?

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I imagine we'll see that happen for most businesses, however GNE are classed as keyworkers so although they have a lot of people working from home they can (with proper social distancing) have them in the office as needed as they are carrying out essential support for keyworkers.

It will be the case for a long time where only frontline workers are public facing or office based.

Welcome to the new normal!

(20 Apr 2020, 3:44 pm)Ambassador wrote I imagine we'll see that happen for most businesses, however GNE are classed as keyworkers so although they have a lot of people working from home they can (with proper social distancing) have them in the office as needed as they are carrying out essential support for keyworkers.

It will be the case for a long time where only frontline workers are public facing or office based.

Welcome to the new normal!

I was thinking purely financially, while there is an advantage to having customer service 'in house', if they can get rid of a whole property and have them work from home instead, that's got to save an awful lot of money!

Like you say, a lot of businesses have opened their eyes to homeworking, and if you can save money by doing it permanently, why wouldn't you?

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