I’ve noticed that the allocation of Prince Bishops vehicles on the 60 during the evening seems to have stopped. Permanent move? Must say I’ve never been a fan of Intentionally allocating the wrong branded vehicle on a branded route. 
Has there been any other changes to evening allocations?

(12 Nov 2020, 9:37 pm)Drifter60 wrote I’ve noticed that the allocation of Prince Bishops vehicles on the 60 during the evening seems to have stopped. Permanent move? Must say I’ve never been a fan of Intentionally allocating the wrong branded vehicle on a branded route. 
Has there been any other changes to evening allocations?

Done intentionally for the extra BSOG payments wasn't it, quite clever to be honest to generate an extra income for the company in my opinion.

93/94 currently use the day time allocation

(12 Nov 2020, 9:54 pm)Malarkey wrote Done intentionally for the extra BSOG payments wasn't it, quite clever to be honest to generate an extra income for the company in my opinion.

Yeah that’s why they started using the PB Streetlites wasn’t it? Well I get the commercial decision, not a great one from a design/branding perspective. So I welcome the change.

(12 Nov 2020, 9:54 pm)Malarkey wrote Done intentionally for the extra BSOG payments wasn't it, quite clever to be honest to generate an extra income for the company in my opinion.

Do they not have enough opportunities to make their money during the day like? 
Unethical to take even more from the public purse in my book.

(12 Nov 2020, 9:37 pm)Drifter60 wrote I’ve noticed that the allocation of Prince Bishops vehicles on the 60 during the evening seems to have stopped. Permanent move? Must say I’ve never been a fan of Intentionally allocating the wrong branded vehicle on a branded route. 
Has there been any other changes to evening allocations?

Not just on the 60, there's not many that drop onto other services at all anymore on an evening, during the week at least. In a weird opposite turn there's a Citaro on the 61 that drops onto the short 2s now on an evening. Although a black cat goes the other way and operates the 61.

(13 Nov 2020, 1:54 pm)Andreos1 wrote Do they not have enough opportunities to make their money during the day like? 
Unethical to take even more from the public purse in my book.

To me, it's not unethical at all. 
From an environmental point of view the more services they can run with their more efficient vehicles the better, and if it takes an incentive from the government to do that, then so be it.

(13 Nov 2020, 3:51 pm)streetdeckfan wrote To me, it's not unethical at all. 
From an environmental point of view the more services they can run with their more efficient vehicles the better, and if it takes an incentive from the government to do that, then so be it.

The difference in environmental output between the normal allocation and evening allocation will be minimal, if at all.
I'd hazard a guess the daytime allocation already attracts some sort of BSOG

It's all about saving money and making money. Nothing more.

(13 Nov 2020, 5:35 pm)Andreos1 wrote It's all about saving money and making money. Nothing more.

Or preserving the provision of bus services on a commercial basis on an evening when fewer people travel..? Which I'm surprised you're against - as it surely means the taxpayer pays less (even if they do contribute something - less than paying to run a service in its entirety - to the enhanced BSOG payments)?!

(13 Nov 2020, 5:42 pm)Dan wrote Or preserving the provision of bus services on a commercial basis on an evening when fewer people travel..? Which I'm surprised you're against - as it surely means the taxpayer pays less (even if they do contribute something - less than paying to run a service in its entirety - to the enhanced BSOG payments)?!

I'll ask you the same question I asked Malarkey earlier on. 
Do they not have enough opportunities to make their money during the day?

If they did make their money during the day, then surely any losses or drop in revenue would be mitigated. Ensuring the viablity of evening runs - regardless of the age of the Streetlite operating the runs.

(13 Nov 2020, 5:42 pm)Dan wrote Or preserving the provision of bus services on a commercial basis on an evening when fewer people travel..? Which I'm surprised you're against - as it surely means the taxpayer pays less (even if they do contribute something - less than paying to run a service in its entirety - to the enhanced BSOG payments)?!

I suppose it depends on which view you take. On the one hand as you say, much needed extra ‘revenue’ when there’s few passengers. 
On the other hand some would say it’s a commercial business, which turns a profit, ‘milking’ money from the tax payer. 

I understand why any business would want to make use of such schemes, I don’t have an issue with that, in fact I encourage it, these schemes exist for people to use them. However incorrectly branded vehicles being used just to qualify for funding might be a seen as ‘milking’ tax payers.

(13 Nov 2020, 7:41 pm)Drifter60 wrote I suppose it depends on which view you take. On the one hand as you say, much needed extra ‘revenue’ when there’s few passengers. 
On the other hand some would say it’s a commercial business, which turns a profit, ‘milking’ money from the tax payer. 

I understand why any business would want to make use of such schemes, I don’t have an issue with that, in fact I encourage it, these schemes exist for people to use them. However incorrectly branded vehicles being used just to qualify for funding might be a seen as ‘milking’ tax payers.

The counter argument is that without the extra BSOG payments, an operator may decide that these journeys are not commercially viable (regardless of Andreos1’s previous comments about the daytime operation making enough profit to cover the evening operation - that is their decision to make). It’s an incentive which the government has created to encourage operators to buy and run more buses of this type, so this is what they are doing.

This enhanced payment could make or break the service, and, on work which is already operated under contract to the local authority, offer better value for money to the tenderer, where operators may be able to reduce their tender price taking into consideration the enhanced BSOG payments they will get instead.

It is surely better that an operator runs a service commercially, with an enhanced BSOG payment, than it being operated under contract to the local authority, where the full costs of operating the service are covered in the tender price?

Clearly all of this is not as important in the current climate... and changes are being made to schedules in far less time than normal, so the usual considerations may not be as easy to work with.


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(13 Nov 2020, 9:43 pm)Dan wrote The counter argument is that without the extra BSOG payments, an operator may decide that these journeys are not commercially viable (regardless of Andreos1’s previous comments about the daytime operation making enough profit to cover the evening operation - that is their decision to make). It’s an incentive which the government has created to encourage operators to buy and run more buses of this type, so this is what they are doing.

This enhanced payment could make or break the service, and, on work which is already operated under contract to the local authority, offer better value for money to the tenderer, where operators may be able to reduce their tender price taking into consideration the enhanced BSOG payments they will get instead.

It is surely better that an operator runs a service commercially, with an enhanced BSOG payment, than it being operated under contract to the local authority, where the full costs of operating the service are covered in the tender price?

Clearly all of this is not as important in the current climate... and changes are being made to schedules in far less time than normal, so the usual considerations may not be as easy to work with.


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Is the amount GNE get in BSOG payments public?

So if GNE can benefit from extra BSOG payments as well as fuel savings, why are the evening 6A/X30 boards being run using heavy duty binge drinking Citaros and Omnicities when an E200MMC or StreetLite could be swapped in place at the MetroCentre?

I know it's a pain passengers needing to change bus but surely the fuel savings / BSOG payments would compensate.

(13 Nov 2020, 9:49 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Is the amount GNE get in BSOG payments public?

Yup.
I've shared the relevant data a number of times on here. 

I can't be arsed to do any digging at the mo, but Google is your friend.

(13 Nov 2020, 9:43 pm)Dan wrote The counter argument is that without the extra BSOG payments, an operator may decide that these journeys are not commercially viable (regardless of Andreos1’s previous comments about the daytime operation making enough profit to cover the evening operation - that is their decision to make). It’s an incentive which the government has created to encourage operators to buy and run more buses of this type, so this is what they are doing.

This enhanced payment could make or break the service, and, on work which is already operated under contract to the local authority, offer better value for money to the tenderer, where operators may be able to reduce their tender price taking into consideration the enhanced BSOG payments they will get instead.

It is surely better that an operator runs a service commercially, with an enhanced BSOG payment, than it being operated under contract to the local authority, where the full costs of operating the service are covered in the tender price?

Clearly all of this is not as important in the current climate... and changes are being made to schedules in far less time than normal, so the usual considerations may not be as easy to work with.


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Another thing to add to your point, Dan: who, in all honesty, is going to notice the brand used on a route when its pitch black outside, particularly at this time of the year when it gets dark at 3/4 o'clock? If you are allocating the StreetLites with hybrid systems in order to receive BSOG payments, then use it to your full advantage is what I say. I'm no expert in financial things but if these BSOG payments are government initiatives, then I would definitely use vehicles that qualify for them as much as possible!

(13 Nov 2020, 10:16 pm)L469 YVK wrote So if GNE can benefit from extra BSOG payments as well as fuel savings, why are the evening 6A/X30 boards being run using heavy duty binge drinking Citaros and Omnicities when an E200MMC or StreetLite could be swapped in place at the MetroCentre?

I know it's a pain passengers needing to change bus but surely the fuel savings / BSOG payments would compensate.

I think at that point you really are taking the piss.

A warm bus which has been out in service all day, and you’re going to tell folk to get off that and onto a cold bus which has been on an early return back to the depot? That doesn’t offer a very good customer experience.

Scheduling it so that there is no disruption to customers, I don’t see an issue with. Your plan, which you have mentioned several times, would result in disruption to customers AND extra resource being added which is not scheduled.


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(14 Nov 2020, 12:35 am)BeachBoy99 wrote Another thing to add to your point, Dan: who, in all honesty, is going to notice the brand used on a route when its pitch black outside, particularly at this time of the year when it gets dark at 3/4 o'clock? If you are allocating the StreetLites with hybrid systems in order to receive BSOG payments, then use it to your full advantage is what I say. I'm no expert in financial things but if these BSOG payments are government initiatives, then I would definitely use vehicles that qualify for them as much as possible! 

The daytime fleet already receive BSOG if I remember right. 
They would receive them on an evening too. 

The purple ones which have been allocated on an evening, attract an enhanced version of BSOG under the LCEB scheme.

(14 Nov 2020, 5:29 am)Dan wrote I think at that point you really are taking the piss.

A warm bus which has been out in service all day, and you’re going to tell folk to get off that and onto a cold bus which has been on an early return back to the depot? That doesn’t offer a very good customer experience.

Scheduling it so that there is no disruption to customers, I don’t see an issue with. Your plan, which you have mentioned several times, would result in disruption to customers AND extra resource being added which is not scheduled.


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I see your point but, if a driver is being relieved, would they not have to come from the depot regardless (unless having break in MetroCentre)? 

GNE used to do it years back at Percy Main with Lolynes being swapped for VDL Cadets on the Coaster at Percy Main and later on before they got withdrawn, Dennis Lance Wright Pathfinders being swapped with NTL MPD's at Verne Road.

(14 Nov 2020, 10:22 am)L469 YVK wrote I see your point but, if a driver is being relieved, would they not have to come from the depot regardless (unless having break in MetroCentre)? 

GNE used to do it years back at Percy Main with Lolynes being swapped for VDL Cadets on the Coaster at Percy Main and later on before they got withdrawn, Dennis Lance Wright Pathfinders being swapped with NTL MPD's at Verne Road.

Drivers expect to change buses - passengers do not

(14 Nov 2020, 10:43 am)citaro5284 wrote Drivers expect to change buses - passengers do not

That's fair enough I suppose. 

But having a heavy duty vehicle given the climate we're in on a newly established route (the extra X30 evening journeys) must be quite costly.

Saying that, it will most likely change going forward depending on how the new interworking patterns are devised (if evening journeys are fully run by Consett) and also what cascades will eventually replace the Citaros if Riverside keep the evening journeys.

(14 Nov 2020, 10:43 am)citaro5284 wrote Drivers expect to change buses - passengers do not

The entire GNE model is about passengers chasing buses to get anywhere. 
Whilst Davey Bowyers idea might be flawed in some aspects, for the majority - changing buses mid-route is what most passengers have to do to get anywhere!

(14 Nov 2020, 4:03 pm)Andreos1 wrote The entire GNE model is about passengers chasing buses to get anywhere. 
Whilst Davey Bowyers idea might be flawed in some aspects, for the majority - changing buses mid-route is what most passengers have to do to get anywhere!

An advertised change of bus and connection to another service is different to one which is expected to be a one-bus through service, though.

(14 Nov 2020, 8:18 am)Andreos1 wrote The daytime fleet already receive BSOG if I remember right. 
They would receive them on an evening too. 

The purple ones which have been allocated on an evening, attract an enhanced version of BSOG under the LCEB scheme.

Why would the Drifter StreetLites receive BSOG, when they aren't electric hybrids?

(14 Nov 2020, 5:48 pm)BeachBoy99 wrote Why would the Drifter StreetLites receive BSOG, when they aren't electric hybrids?

BSOG is eligible on a variety of routes and vehicles. Not just those which are of a hybrid variety. Even vehicles of diesel propulsion are eligible.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...-operators

Towards the bottom of the page are figures, including the uplift that vehicles which hold low carbon receive or which have smart card or avl technology.

Assuming a standard GNE diesel Streetlite meets the criteria and those figures are still accurate, they get the 35p per litre rebate.
Operators who then send out a similar vehicle of a higher euro rating for a few hours on an evening, receive an extra 6p per km. All vehicles may then receive an 8% increase in their BSOG rate if vehicles have operational smartcard systems installed on their vehicles, and a further 2% increase if vehicles are fitted with automatic vehicle location equipment.

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(14 Nov 2020, 5:44 pm)Dan wrote An advertised change of bus and connection to another service is different to one which is expected to be a one-bus through service, though.

All tongue in cheek Dan

(14 Nov 2020, 5:48 pm)BeachBoy99 wrote Why would the Drifter StreetLites receive BSOG, when they aren't electric hybrids?

(14 Nov 2020, 6:02 pm)Andreos1 wrote BSOG is eligible on a variety of routes and vehicles. Not just those which are of a hybrid variety. Even vehicles of diesel propulsion are eligible.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...-operators

Towards the bottom of the page are figures, including the uplift that vehicles which hold low carbon receive or which have smart card or avl technology.

Assuming a standard GNE diesel Streetlite meets the criteria and those figures are still accurate, they get the 35p per litre rebate.
Operators who then send out a similar vehicle of a higher euro rating for a few hours on an evening, receive an extra 6p per km. All vehicles may then receive an 8% increase in their BSOG rate if vehicles have operational smartcard systems installed on their vehicles, and a further 2% increase if vehicles are fitted with automatic vehicle location equipment.

Drifter Streetlites 5369 - 5376 and (ex) Saltwell Park Streetlites 8339 - 8346 don't qualify for the extra 6p/km BSOG enhancement which we're discussing here, whereas all of the Micro-Hybrid Streetlites in the fleet (5391 - 5480) do. This is partly why the Prince Bishops branded examples were, until recently, used on service 60 on an evening.

(14 Nov 2020, 6:41 pm)Dan wrote Drifter Streetlites 5369 - 5376 and (ex) Saltwell Park Streetlites 8339 - 8346 don't qualify for the extra 6p/km BSOG enhancement which we're discussing here, whereas all of the Micro-Hybrid Streetlites in the fleet (5391 - 5480) do. This is partly why the Prince Bishops branded examples were, until recently, used on service 60 on an evening.

Precisely what I was thinking.

(14 Nov 2020, 6:41 pm)Dan wrote Drifter Streetlites 5369 - 5376 and (ex) Saltwell Park Streetlites 8339 - 8346 don't qualify for the extra 6p/km BSOG enhancement which we're discussing here, whereas all of the Micro-Hybrid Streetlites in the fleet (5391 - 5480) do. This is partly why the Prince Bishops branded examples were, until recently, used on service 60 on an evening.

I know they don't. That's what I've said

Assuming a standard GNE diesel Streetlite meets the criteria and those figures are still accurate, they get the 35p per litre rebate.
Operators who then send out a similar vehicle of a higher euro rating for a few hours on an evening, receive an extra 6p per km.

(14 Nov 2020, 5:44 pm)Dan wrote An advertised change of bus and connection to another service is different to one which is expected to be a one-bus through service, though.

I do get what you mean. But, the MetroCentre isn't exactly out in the sticks and is pretty well facilitated, is it well covered from the rain etc?

Also, given the enhancements to the X30 & X70 last year with later services, how many passengers use the 6A from Newcastle through the MetroCentre towards Sunniside & Stanley? I know passengers travelling to Catchgate & Annfield Plain would need to use it.

Would a relief driver taking a bus out that has had an early finish on the 49/49A or 97 need to do another walk around check?

I agree with the stance on passengers not needing to change mid route (albeit a guaranteed connection) but if a StreetLite or E200MMC being swapped in place of a heavy duty Citaro & Omnicity could be easily achieved with no additional cost, it would make sense considering the extra BSOG payments & reduced fuel consumption.

This whole conversation just shows flawed the whole BSOG system is and it will no doubt go at some point in the near future replaced by an equally inexplicable system that props up and generates even more cash for our billion pound making transport groups.....and those down on their luck small local businesses like Go Ahead, Arriva and Stagecoach. Indeed.