(22 Dec 2020, 10:43 am)streetdeckfan wrote But arguably the cost of installing the WiFi and fancy tables is significantly lower than launching new routes, which require new vehicles, new drivers etc. so while I agree the potential is far greater, it also has a much more significant outlay and a lot more risk.

I personally think that the underserved areas are probably more suitable for the independents rather than the big groups, they have much lower overheads so a route that isn't viable for the likes of GNE and Arriva could be profitable for the likes of Weardale or Stanley.
But then you have the issue of ticketing, especially outside of T&W where multi-operator tickets are basically non-existent.
I believe that is one of the key objectives NE-Bus and once COVID is under control hopefully they can sort something out.

It doesn't need to be a whole new route set up bu an independent in some of the examples though. 
Just a variation of existing routes, which ensure they meet customers needs and wants. 

In the example of the new estate in Birtley and the lack of links TO the shops and school, it doesn't need to see a new route. 
Tweaking and adapting existing services could see a whole new market attracted to the local routes AND open up new opportunities to increase numbers on the 21 or other services through Birtley.

The 25, 28 and 82 could all have parts of their routes adapted or tweaked (even if it is just at certain times of the day) to better serve the needs and wants of the population of the new estate and the outlay would be minimal. 
Common stops could be introduced for the 82 and 28. Again, minimal outlay. 
Connection times could be looked at for those getting off a 21 or 28 but needing to board an 82 for the final leg of the journey. Yet again, minimal outlay.

Adaptations to three services, which could impact positively on at least four and has the potential to remove quite a few cars off the road. 

If the same exercise is carried in other towns, villages and communities across the region, the impact could be massive. 

As I say, look to exceed expectations for some passengers or look to meet the needs and wants of far more?

(22 Dec 2020, 11:08 am)Andreos1 wrote It doesn't need to be a whole new route set up bu an independent in some of the examples though. 
Just a variation of existing routes, which ensure they meet customers needs and wants. 

In the example of the new estate in Birtley and the lack of links TO the shops and school, it doesn't need to see a new route. 
Tweaking and adapting existing services could see a whole new market attracted to the local routes AND open up new opportunities to increase numbers on the 21 or other services through Birtley.

The 25, 28 and 82 could all have parts of their routes adapted or tweaked (even if it is just at certain times of the day) to better serve the needs and wants of the population of the new estate and the outlay would be minimal. 
Common stops could be introduced for the 82 and 28. Again, minimal outlay. 
Connection times could be looked at for those getting off a 21 or 28 but needing to board an 82 for the final leg of the journey. Yet again, minimal outlay.

Adaptations to three services, which could impact positively on at least four and has the potential to remove quite a few cars off the road. 

If the same exercise is carried in other towns, villages and communities across the region, the impact could be massive. 

As I say, look to exceed expectations for some passengers or look to meet the needs and wants of far more?

I totally agree.

I'm not very familiar with the areas you mention, or how much of a diversion it would be, but could it not be an issue of them not wanting to 'bloat' the route too much?

I know when they re-routed the X21 through Woodhouse to cut out the estate and run straight down Proudfoot, that saving in journey time allowed them to extend the route all the way to West Auckland without affecting the vehicle/driver requirements.

But then again, West Auckland is already very well served by the Arriva 6 and it left half of Woodhouse without a bus service meaning the council is now having to subsidise a Weardale service around the estate. And from what I've been told, that was done purely so GNE could ditch the outstation in Crook with the intention always being to pull the service from Woodhouse but doing it in stages to reduce the outrage!

(22 Dec 2020, 12:47 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I totally agree.

I'm not very familiar with the areas you mention, or how much of a diversion it would be, but could it not be an issue of them not wanting to 'bloat' the route too much?

I know when they re-routed the X21 through Woodhouse to cut out the estate and run straight down Proudfoot, that saving in journey time allowed them to extend the route all the way to West Auckland without affecting the vehicle/driver requirements.

But then again, West Auckland is already very well served by the Arriva 6 and it left half of Woodhouse without a bus service meaning the council is now having to subsidise a Weardale service around the estate. And from what I've been told, that was done purely so GNE could ditch the outstation in Crook with the intention always being to pull the service from Woodhouse but doing it in stages to reduce the outrage!

Very little effort or 'bloating' at all.

As an example, the 25 could easily be diverted down Blackfell Way and along Birtley Lane towards Chester (obviously in reverse in the other direction) during the school peaks. This would not only allow kids to get a bus to and from school, it could also reduce the number of cars in the area.
I reckon it would need very little adding to the timetable versus its normal running time along Portmeads Road. 

The stop opposite the Library/Cenotaph has the 28 stopping there, but not the 82.
Give passengers the option of using that stop and you're opening up new and easier opportunities to get to the QE. As it stands, passengers who use the 82 and change on to the 28 are forced to get off at one stop (bus stop 1 on the first image), walk across Station Lane, carry on for 50yds or so and wait for another (infrequent) bus at bus stop 2.
As it stands, it's not really worth the hassle in doing the journey that way. 

The southbound journey is even worse. Getting off the 28 at bus stop 3 or the 21 at bus stop 4 and having to walk to bus stop 1 for an 82 back home. 
Depending where you live in Birtley, you could board a 23 at bus stop 4, but potentially there is the need a different type of ticket or an extra cost. 

It's little things like that which need improving. 
Continuous improvement and tweaks, which could make things so much easier for passengers and (regardless of any tables and WiFi), make travelling by bus more attractive. 

There are many further examples just in Birtley alone of public transport not quite hitting the mark. 
The 25 and 81 run along Portobello Road, but don't enter Vigo or Barley Mow where the passengers actually live and walk to & from the bus stop. 
The 82 enters Vigo in both directions, but does a weird loop with a canny distance between Birtley bound (B1 on the second image) and Washington bound buses. (W1 & W2). Depending where on Vigo you live and where the bus stop is, you could be driving out of the estate and well on your way somewhere before you get anywhere near the bus stop.
Just to add the 23 to the mix, it stops at B2.
I've no idea which stop Birtley bound passengers gamble on if they're on Windermere mind. Stand in the middle of the road perhaps and run as fast as you can up or down the hill when you see a bus approaching?

Edit: Forgot to add images.

(22 Dec 2020, 1:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote Very little effort or 'bloating' at all.

As an example, the 25 could easily be diverted down Blackfell Way and along Birtley Lane towards Chester (obviously in reverse in the other direction) during the school peaks. This would not only allow kids to get a bus to and from school, it could also reduce the number of cars in the area.
I reckon it would need very little adding to the timetable versus its normal running time along Portmeads Road. 

The stop opposite the Library/Cenotaph has the 28 stopping there, but not the 82.
Give passengers the option of using that stop and you're opening up new and easier opportunities to get to the QE. As it stands, passengers who use the 82 and change on to the 28 are forced to get off at one stop (bus stop 1 on the first image), walk across Station Lane, carry on for 50yds or so and wait for another (infrequent) bus at bus stop 2.
As it stands, it's not really worth the hassle in doing the journey that way. 

The southbound journey is even worse. Getting off the 28 at bus stop 3 or the 21 at bus stop 4 and having to walk to bus stop 1 for an 82 back home. 
Depending where you live in Birtley, you could board a 23 at bus stop 4, but potentially there is the need a different type of ticket or an extra cost. 

It's little things like that which need improving. 
Continuous improvement and tweaks, which could make things so much easier for passengers and (regardless of any tables and WiFi), make travelling by bus more attractive. 

There are many further examples just in Birtley alone of public transport not quite hitting the mark. 
The 25 and 81 run along Portobello Road, but don't enter Vigo or Barley Mow where the passengers actually live and walk to & from the bus stop. 
The 82 enters Vigo in both directions, but does a weird loop with a canny distance between Birtley bound (B1 on the second image) and Washington bound buses. (W1 & W2). Depending where on Vigo you live and where the bus stop is, you could be driving out of the estate and well on your way somewhere before you get anywhere near the bus stop.
Just to add the 23 to the mix, it stops at B2.
I've no idea which stop Birtley bound passengers gamble on if they're on Windermere mind. Stand in the middle of the road perhaps and run as fast as you can up or down the hill when you see a bus approaching?

Edit: Forgot to add images.

See if I was going to mess around with Birtley I'd change the 25 differently and keep it roughly the same but serve Blackfell Way additionally. I'd change the bottom half of the route though and instead of heading towards Barley Mow, I'd go towards Rickleton and Harraton and do a loop around there before going to CLS via Picktree and then terminate it there. Then extend 2 of the short 21's to do the rest of the 25 bus route so they don't have sit on a magical bus tour around Birtley and Wrekenton - it gives you the ability to make the 25 a bit longer in places without punishing anyone.

At the same time I'd look at sending the 50 upto Barley Mow and along Vigo Lane before rejoining it's bus route instead of going express along the A1(M), the time can't be too much different and it gives the bottom end of Birtley new bus links to Durham, Nissan and South Shields and getting arid of the 50A as it's no longer needed between CLS and Washington (replaced by 25).

For the 82 I'd probably try and extend it to Gateshead hourly via the 28 bus route to replace the 925 so it eliminates the change you were mentioning anyway and gives a service every 30 minutes through Eighton Banks (there's no PVR change) - I know you'd have to change the loop a bit.

(22 Dec 2020, 8:36 pm)Storx wrote See if I was going to mess around with Birtley I'd change the 25 differently and keep it roughly the same but serve Blackfell Way additionally. I'd change the bottom half of the route though and instead of heading towards Barley Mow, I'd go towards Rickleton and Harraton and do a loop around there before going to CLS via Picktree and then terminate it there. Then extend 2 of the short 21's to do the rest of the 25 bus route so they don't have sit on a magical bus tour around Birtley and Wrekenton - it gives you the ability to make the 25 a bit longer in places without punishing anyone.

At the same time I'd look at sending the 50 upto Barley Mow and along Vigo Lane before rejoining it's bus route instead of going express along the A1(M), the time can't be too much different and it gives the bottom end of Birtley new bus links to Durham, Nissan and South Shields and getting arid of the 50A as it's no longer needed between CLS and Washington (replaced by 25).

For the 82 I'd probably try and extend it to Gateshead hourly via the 28 bus route to replace the 925 so it eliminates the change you were mentioning anyway and gives a service every 30 minutes through Eighton Banks (there's no PVR change) - I know you'd have to change the loop a bit.

There are all sorts of options to sorting out the mess that is Birtley and the bus network around there too
Seriously though, what you have just described could work. 

The 551 (what is now the 50), always went through Birtley before doubling back and heading to Washington.
I think it was the 531 initially and that went up Birtley Lane and turned left on to Portobello Road. 
The 551 replaced it and turned right on to Portobello Road, following the route the 82 takes to the Galleries.

The 25 route you mention going via Rickleton is very similar to the old 726. Except that just went straight down to Picktree, but originally continued to Witton Gilbert. I think by the time it was axed, it terminated at Chester. 

I'd personally look to not only increase bus patronage in the new estate, but improve the existing network within Elizabethville, Vigo and Barley Mow too. Not just skirting around the edges or serve tiny portions of the latter two either. 

If you live on the core of the 21 route, you're sorted. Except the majority of the population of Birtley don't live on the 21 route.

Birtley is just one town which suffers with poor provision which can be remedied so quickly, effectively and cheaply. There's many others who have needs and wants being ignored who could have their network remedied quickly, effectively and cheaply too. 
However, having seen the state of the displays on the Versa working the 58, I'd be tempted to suggest they continue concentrating on the titivating rather than actually doing work on improving the network :shrug:

Wasn't sure where to put this and didn't want to create a new thread for the sake of one post.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57571881

Id never really considered the actual time saving that a bus lane could have on a particular service.
In this case, the bus lane will save approx 40 seconds per bus. According to council figures.

(22 Jun 2021, 10:06 pm)Andreos1 wrote Wasn't sure where to put this and didn't want to create a new thread for the sake of one post.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57571881

Id never really considered the actual time saving that a bus lane could have on a particular service.
In this case, the bus lane will save approx 40 seconds per bus. According to council figures.

I read an article a few years back re the bus lane on the Durham Road in Sunderland stretching from the A690 /A19 Doxford roundabout via East Herrington, Prospect,Barnes Roundabout into Sunderland.  A few guys in an office did a car, bus and cycle challenge each using one mode of travel, to establish what was actually quickest.

If I remember correctly the car came last due to the queuing traffic and then finding a car park with spaces and then walking to the office
The bus came second although it did get to the city centre first the walk from the bus station delayed the final section. The cyclist arrived at the office first, due to the bike being able to be locked up directly outside the office and no walking from car parks or bus stations

(23 Jun 2021, 5:53 pm)ifm001 wrote I read an article a few years back re the bus lane on the Durham Road in Sunderland stretching from the A690 /A19 Doxford roundabout via East Herrington, Prospect,Barnes Roundabout into Sunderland.  A few guys in an office did a car, bus and cycle challenge each using one mode of travel, to establish what was actually quickest.

If I remember correctly the car came last due to the queuing traffic and then finding a car park with spaces and then walking to the office
The bus came second although it did get to the city centre first the walk from the bus station delayed the final section. The cyclist arrived at the office first, due to the bike being able to be locked up directly outside the office and no walking from car parks or bus stations

You need to stop with all this pro-cycling propaganda! Cycling is dangerous, cold and wet!  

I'm really enjoying my cycle commute this week off topic sorry!

(23 Jun 2021, 5:53 pm)ifm001 wrote I read an article a few years back re the bus lane on the Durham Road in Sunderland stretching from the A690 /A19 Doxford roundabout via East Herrington, Prospect,Barnes Roundabout into Sunderland.  A few guys in an office did a car, bus and cycle challenge each using one mode of travel, to establish what was actually quickest.

If I remember correctly the car came last due to the queuing traffic and then finding a car park with spaces and then walking to the office
The bus came second although it did get to the city centre first the walk from the bus station delayed the final section. The cyclist arrived at the office first, due to the bike being able to be locked up directly outside the office and no walking from car parks or bus stations

Sounds like a Top Gear challenge!

Mind, if it was based on a commute from somewhere down the road in say Peterlee or Hetton, I bet the results would be totally different.

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(23 Jun 2021, 8:07 pm)idiot wrote I'm really enjoying my cycle commute this week off topic sorry!

You still beating that 56?

I was only at Springwell for one week!

This week I'm at northern saints and beating the bus times there to. I also beat the bus to northern saints and Christ's College.