(24 Dec 2020, 3:29 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Perhaps Go North East felt the cost to upgrade them wasn't value for money or the councils requested Scanias to be done because it was cheaper.

Or whichever insider told us they couldn't be upgraded, was talking tosh. 

We kept hearing how they couldn't be upgraded and if they stayed would have to be farmed off to non-Newcastle routes.
Yet when the move to Manchester was rumoured, I'm not sure the larger GMC emission zone was ever mentioned. 

If GNW (and their smaller budget/revenue base) are prepared to contribute towards an emissions upgrade, I'd have thought GNE could have afforded to do so.

(24 Dec 2020, 3:54 pm)Andreos1 wrote Or whichever insider told us they couldn't be upgraded, was talking tosh. 

We kept hearing how they couldn't be upgraded and if they stayed would have to be farmed off to non-Newcastle routes.
Yet when the move to Manchester was rumoured, I'm not sure the larger GMC emission zone was ever mentioned. 

If GNW (and their smaller budget/revenue base) are prepared to contribute towards an emissions upgrade, I'd have thought GNE could have afforded to do so.

I believe they (either Dan or MG, I can't remember) said that they couldn't be upgraded to Euro 6 using their preferred system (or something to that effect anyway), and that combined with other factors such as the high fuel consumption and expensive maintenance meant it wasn't worth the hassle of keeping them

I wonder if GNE can strip some of the NSA equipment out to be used on other vehicles a bit like when London buses have their iBus system & screens stripped out before they leave London.

(24 Dec 2020, 4:41 pm)ne14ne1 wrote I wonder if GNE can strip some of the NSA equipment out to be used on other vehicles a bit like when London buses have their iBus system & screens stripped out before they leave London.

Good point, they didn't seem to mention the vehicles having NSA

(24 Dec 2020, 4:43 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Good point, they didn't seem to mention the vehicles having NSA

GNE probs took them out of the Citaro's to put them on 8339 - 8343 for service 9.

Some may end up on the B9's which are allocated to the 93/94 too.

Edit:


Does anyone know which 8 are at Thornton's?

Wonder what fleet number they'll get at GNW.

(24 Dec 2020, 3:54 pm)Andreos1 wrote Or whichever insider told us they couldn't be upgraded, was talking tosh. 

We kept hearing how they couldn't be upgraded and if they stayed would have to be farmed off to non-Newcastle routes.
Yet when the move to Manchester was rumoured, I'm not sure the larger GMC emission zone was ever mentioned. 

If GNW (and their smaller budget/revenue base) are prepared to contribute towards an emissions upgrade, I'd have thought GNE could have afforded to do so.

Go North East use Eminox for their Euro VI upgrades and they don't offer a kit for the Citaro - but other companies do, presumably Go North West use a different supplier
https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/sit...0.2019.pdf

At a guess I presume 5313 / 5315 - 5322. Guessing the Tynedale Expresses will be parked up at Thorntons and probably be started on after xmas.

I'm guessing 5298 - 5302 / 5305 - 5322 are 22 of the ones going. I'm guessing the other will be 5303 with something replacing it at Hexham and 5304 going to Deptford.

(24 Dec 2020, 6:09 pm)Rapidsnap wrote At a guess I presume 5313 / 5315 - 5322. Guessing the Tynedale Expresses will be parked up at Thorntons and probably be started on after xmas.

I'm guessing 5298 - 5302 / 5305 - 5322 are 22 of the ones going. I'm guessing the other will be 5303 with something replacing it at Hexham and 5304 going to Deptford.

Go North East 8310 / NK10 GNY by kieron mathews, on Flickr

8310 has replaced 5303


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Mercedes Citaro 5298 to 5303 have all now left Hexham. 5304 remains at Hexham as a spare for the time being.

(24 Dec 2020, 5:50 pm)busmanT wrote Go North East use Eminox for their Euro VI upgrades and they don't offer a kit for the Citaro - but other companies do, presumably Go North West use a different supplier
https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/sit...0.2019.pdf

So because one supplier doesn't offer the Merc conversion, the operator can't do them at all?

(24 Dec 2020, 9:39 pm)Andreos1 wrote So because one supplier doesn't offer the Merc conversion, the operator can't do them at all?

All of Go North East’s exhaust upgrades are with Eminox - so for fleet standardisation, there was no appetite at Go North East to introduce a new supplier’s exhaust upgrade.

busmanT is correct in his thoughts that Go North West have sourced another supplier, and are progressing the upgrades with this supplier, after receiving funding from TfGM.


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(24 Dec 2020, 9:55 pm)Dan wrote All of Go North East’s exhaust upgrades are with Eminox - so for fleet standardisation, there was no appetite at Go North East to introduce a new supplier’s exhaust upgrade.

busmanT is correct in his thoughts that Go North West have sourced another supplier, and are progressing the upgrades with this supplier, after receiving funding from TfGM.


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Makes total sense GNE getting rid considering the running costs. I bet a StreetDeck could match or beat the MPG of a Citaro.

" why take the car when you can take the streetdeck" doesnot have same ring to it though

(25 Dec 2020, 11:43 am)L469 YVK wrote Makes total sense GNE getting rid considering the running costs. I bet a StreetDeck could match or beat the MPG of a Citaro.

After a few minutes of dubious Googling, it looks like a Euro 6 Citaro gets around 7mpg, and the 4 cylinder StreetDecks get around 9mpg (obviously depending on the route that could vary wildly), so I'd imagine compared to the old Citaros the StreetDecks will use half the fuel

(25 Dec 2020, 12:33 pm)Rob44 wrote " why take the car when you can take the streetdeck" doesnot have same ring to it though

Enviro400MMC sounds even better!

(24 Dec 2020, 9:55 pm)Dan wrote All of Go North East’s exhaust upgrades are with Eminox - so for fleet standardisation, there was no appetite at Go North East to introduce a new supplier’s exhaust upgrade.

busmanT is correct in his thoughts that Go North West have sourced another supplier, and are progressing the upgrades with this supplier, after receiving funding from TfGM.


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No 'appetite to introduce a new suppliers exhaust upgrade', but plenty of appetite to introduce new vehicles from different bus manufacturers and the various engines and mechanics on offer?

What sort of standardisation is that? 

If there's 23 vehicles worth x amount of pound and funding on offer to upgrade the emissions output by a different supplier versus a similar number of older vehicles where there's been publicly documented fallings out regarding the supply of parts & spares and others from elsewhere in the organisation are being canabalised to keep the originals going...
Aye, makes sense.

(25 Dec 2020, 11:00 pm)Andreos1 wrote No 'appetite to introduce a new suppliers exhaust upgrade', but plenty of appetite to introduce new vehicles from different bus manufacturers and the various engines and mechanics on offer?

What sort of standardisation is that? 

If there's 23 vehicles worth x amount of pound and funding on offer to upgrade the emissions output by a different supplier versus a similar number of older vehicles where there's been publicly documented fallings out regarding the supply of parts & spares and others from elsewhere in the organisation are being canabalised to keep the originals going...
Aye, makes sense.

I would imagine that the bigger Go Ahead Group requirements are also in play - Go North West in urgent need of vehicles to replace ex First Volvo B7RLE and Go North East have surplus buses following recent new deliveries.

(25 Dec 2020, 11:00 pm)Andreos1 wrote No 'appetite to introduce a new suppliers exhaust upgrade', but plenty of appetite to introduce new vehicles from different bus manufacturers and the various engines and mechanics on offer?

What sort of standardisation is that? 

If there's 23 vehicles worth x amount of pound and funding on offer to upgrade the emissions output by a different supplier versus a similar number of older vehicles where there's been publicly documented fallings out regarding the supply of parts & spares and others from elsewhere in the organisation are being canabalised to keep the originals going...
Aye, makes sense.

I think it's probably the case of what I said further up, the fact they're also thirsty and expensive to maintain meant it wasn't worth them getting upgraded, especially since they were going to be leaving soon anyway.

If they had upgraded them with funding from a LA that'd mean they'd be tied into keeping them for another few years

(25 Dec 2020, 11:11 pm)busmanT wrote I would imagine that the bigger Go Ahead Group requirements are also in play - Go North West in urgent need of vehicles to replace ex First Volvo B7RLE and Go North East have surplus buses following recent new deliveries.

Presumably bigger GAG requirements came in to play when they signed off the refurb of the Mercs and sent up a load of Omnis to keep the native and unrefurbished ones going? The same Omnis that are older than the Mercs sent off to Manchester. 

The decision to send all 23 to Manchester was based on the success of one passing its trial evaluation. 
The decision by GNE to apparently not use an alternative supplier (possibly a different supplier to the one GNW have used in the past) was made well before the trial even happened. 

I'm a big fan of both the Omni and Citaro, but can't see any logic in any of these decisions or the explanations given.

Funnily enough Eminox seem to do a kit for Euro 3 D7C engined B7RLEs (which I believe is what the Citaro's are replacing). I wonder how this will turn out, replacing B7RLEs which will presumably have a larger availability of spare parts (and existing engineering knowledge) with ageing Citaro's that GNE wanted rid of because they're costing a fortune to run.

Weren't certain vehicles leased from First? No idea if the B7RLEs were part of that.

(26 Dec 2020, 3:08 pm)omnicity4659 wrote Weren't certain vehicles leased from First? No idea if the B7RLEs were part of that.

That was Diamond, Go North West purchased the vehicles from First. Diamond speaking of which have since brought some B7RLEs for use as driver trainers and for Preston bus from First.

(26 Dec 2020, 11:06 am)Andreos1 wrote Presumably bigger GAG requirements came in to play when they signed off the refurb of the Mercs and sent up a load of Omnis to keep the native and unrefurbished ones going? The same Omnis that are older than the Mercs sent off to Manchester. 

The decision to send all 23 to Manchester was based on the success of one passing its trial evaluation. 
The decision by GNE to apparently not use an alternative supplier (possibly a different supplier to the one GNW have used in the past) was made well before the trial even happened. 

I'm a big fan of both the Omni and Citaro, but can't see any logic in any of these decisions or the explanations given.

Surely it's due to there being no Citaros in S. Tyneside who gave the funds for the mods other than the 9 which has been upgraded anyway. There'd be a lot more moaning if they intentially sent Citaros or the 09 Versas for the 5/50 just to get Euro 6 mods (and deservably so aswell) as stupid as it was to do them mind but they'd be wasted on the Stagecoach locals routes and after that there's not much left. Believe the E's and X34 are done and the 26/27 are definitely done.

I'm still curious whether we might see Black Cat Streetlites leaving Deptford as the 12/57 still need to be done and there's nothing realistically left now to replace them otherwise they're going to be in the same position soon up here.

Thing is bus companies have more time before the Emission zone becomes active as a new day hasn't been decided on yet. But no doubt GNE are in a better position for the new enviroment zone when it eventually comes into play. Not sure what the situation is with Stagecoach and Arriva with regards to vehicle compliance for when the zone becomes active.

(26 Dec 2020, 8:06 pm)Storx wrote Surely it's due to there being no Citaros in S. Tyneside who gave the funds for the mods other than the 9 which has been upgraded anyway. There'd be a lot more moaning if they intentially sent Citaros or the 09 Versas for the 5/50 just to get Euro 6 mods (and deservably so aswell) as stupid as it was to do them mind but they'd be wasted on the Stagecoach locals routes and after that there's not much left. Believe the E's and X34 are done and the 26/27 are definitely done.

I'm still curious whether we might see Black Cat Streetlites leaving Deptford as the 12/57 still need to be done and there's nothing realistically left now to replace them otherwise they're going to be in the same position soon up here.

There was a boat load of funding over a period of time (https://northeastca.gov.uk/news/200-buse...emissions/) and the Mercs could have been included within any of the NECA funding bids.
S Tyneside just happened to be the one which the Scania's were successful.

If an alternative supplier was looked at, rather than ignored on the basis of 'standardisation', it may have been the newer, refurbished higher spec Mercs which were included in a bid.
It may have even been cheaper for the taxpayer... 

I'd love to know who was supplying the original emissions upgrades for GNW (and First in the past) and whether or not they're using a new supplier for the Mercs. To hark back a long forgotten phrase from here, the irony could be delicious.

(26 Dec 2020, 8:39 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Thing is bus companies have more time before the Emission zone becomes active as a new day hasn't been decided on yet. But no doubt GNE are in a better position for the new enviroment zone when it eventually comes into play. Not sure what the situation is with Stagecoach and Arriva with regards to vehicle compliance for when the zone becomes active.

Think Arriva and Stagecoach will both be more than fine. I believe Arriva were in the process of converting their deckers to Euro 6, not sure on Stagecoach. There are kits available for all Euro IV/V E400s, as well as D7C Euro 3 engined B7TLs (7445/6 I believe, not sure if the ex-London stock is Euro 3). So that covers the overwhelming majority of the deckers from Stagecoach and Arriva.

I'm not sure on the situation with single decks, particularly Pulsars, but I'm fairly sure Streetlites are able to be converted? 

There were obviously plans for new vehicles for ANE this year too before Covid saw the order shelved, so I imagine that's still on the table for when things settle down. The Scanias are due for replacement soon too, as well as the older B7 deckers. The Stagecoach order was obviously also cancelled, though I don't know how much of that was due for the NE, if any.

---

(26 Dec 2020, 9:15 pm)mb134 wrote Think Arriva and Stagecoach will both be more than fine. I believe Arriva were in the process of converting their deckers to Euro 6, not sure on Stagecoach. There are kits available for all Euro IV/V E400s, as well as D7C Euro 3 engined B7TLs (7445/6 I believe, not sure if the ex-London stock is Euro 3). So that covers the overwhelming majority of the deckers from Stagecoach and Arriva.

I'm not sure on the situation with single decks, particularly Pulsars, but I'm fairly sure Streetlites are able to be converted (or already meet spec)? 

There were obviously plans for new vehicles for ANE this year too before Covid saw the order shelved, so I imagine that's still on the table for when things settle down. The Scanias are due for replacement soon too, as well as the older B7 deckers. The Stagecoach order was obviously also cancelled, though I don't know how much of that was due for the NE, if any.

(26 Dec 2020, 9:12 pm)Andreos1 wrote There was a boat load of funding over a period of time (https://northeastca.gov.uk/news/200-buse...emissions/) and the Mercs could have been included within any of the NECA funding bids.
S Tyneside just happened to be the one which the Scania's were successful.

If an alternative supplier was looked at, rather than ignored on the basis of 'standardisation', it may have been the newer, refurbished higher spec Mercs which were included in a bid.
It may have even been cheaper for the taxpayer... 

I'd love to know who was supplying the original emissions upgrades for GNW (and First in the past) and whether or not they're using a new supplier for the Mercs. To hark back a long forgotten phrase from here, the irony could be delicious.

I understand where your coming from but surely getting the B9TL's and Versas done are better value for money since they're newer and have more life in them, the Scanias are a weird choice but the Mercs aren't much newer as it is.

(26 Dec 2020, 9:15 pm)mb134 wrote Think Arriva and Stagecoach will both be more than fine. I believe Arriva were in the process of converting their deckers to Euro 6, not sure on Stagecoach. There are kits available for all Euro IV/V E400s, as well as D7C Euro 3 engined B7TLs (7445/6 I believe, not sure if the ex-London stock is Euro 3). So that covers the overwhelming majority of the deckers from Stagecoach and Arriva.

I'm not sure on the situation with single decks, particularly Pulsars, but I'm fairly sure Streetlites are able to be converted? 

There were obviously plans for new vehicles for ANE this year too before Covid saw the order shelved, so I imagine that's still on the table for when things settle down. The Scanias are due for replacement soon too, as well as the older B7 deckers. The Stagecoach order was obviously also cancelled, though I don't know how much of that was due for the NE, if any.

The Pulsars can definitely be done, the X7/X8/X9, 306 and X12 batches have all been done for it. Seems like all the South Gosforth Blyth services plus the 306/8 got done. Not sure if the rest of them got done (7609 - 7625) though.

Wouldn't be surprised to see some DB300's come up from London at some point to replace the rest of the B7TL's though, they'd be ideal for the 35 and the rest of the Blyth spares as long as it's not the ones with the Esteban Ciclo's (used on the back of Blyth's) which are worse (or as bad) as the Urban 90's.

(26 Dec 2020, 9:12 pm)Andreos1 wrote There was a boat load of funding over a period of time (https://northeastca.gov.uk/news/200-buse...emissions/) and the Mercs could have been included within any of the NECA funding bids.
S Tyneside just happened to be the one which the Scania's were successful.

If an alternative supplier was looked at, rather than ignored on the basis of 'standardisation', it may have been the newer, refurbished higher spec Mercs which were included in a bid.
It may have even been cheaper for the taxpayer... 

I'd love to know who was supplying the original emissions upgrades for GNW (and First in the past) and whether or not they're using a new supplier for the Mercs. To hark back a long forgotten phrase from here, the irony could be delicious.

Could it not also be the case that to go with a new supplier for emission kits could have proved more expensive as it could be a more complicated system on the Mercs than it was on the Scania's? Not to mention that if the Mercs were to be upgraded to Euro VI, and then cascaded onto the 5/50; there would be a delay in that you would have to wait for the new buses to be delivered to displace the Red Arrow B9s. This delay would have been about a year if I remember rightly as I think it was last summer that the Omnicities were made up to Euro VI.

On top of this, GNE are blessed with quite a sizeable reserve of spare Omnicities that can be cannibalised for parts and the in service ones are concentrated at one depot predominantly. They bought a load of scrap ones a year or two ago so it makes sense having made that "investment" to use it to keep the current fleet going and get as much use out of them as they can before they go to meet the scrapyard.



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Why are people suggesting taking vehicles off the black cats? Whilst I appreciate its poor on an evening and ran by GCT on service 39. It’s a well used service throughout the daytime

(27 Dec 2020, 8:53 am)Acky81 wrote Why are people suggesting taking vehicles off the black cats? Whilst I appreciate its poor on an evening and ran by GCT on service 39. It’s a well used service throughout the daytime

Because all the buses entering Newcastle from the 1.1.21 would have to be Euro 6 - but that's not happening now, due to Covid and has no set date of when that'll happen, GNE aren't converting the Citaro's to Euro 6 as they would have to go for a new supplier to do it so they would of have to come off the Newcastle based services.


Think it was Martijn in one of his live updates, said that depots won't see any new buses next year either, due to the impact from Covid.

(27 Dec 2020, 2:12 am)6049 wrote Could it not also be the case that to go with a new supplier for emission kits could have proved more expensive as it could be a more complicated system on the Mercs than it was on the Scania's? Not to mention that if the Mercs were to be upgraded to Euro VI, and then cascaded onto the 5/50; there would be a delay in that you would have to wait for the new buses to be delivered to displace the Red Arrow B9s. This delay would have been about a year if I remember rightly as I think it was last summer that the Omnicities were made up to Euro VI.

On top of this, GNE are blessed with quite a sizeable reserve of spare Omnicities that can be cannibalised for parts and the in service ones are concentrated at one depot predominantly. They bought a load of scrap ones a year or two ago so it makes sense having made that "investment" to use it to keep the current fleet going and get as much use out of them as they can before they go to meet the scrapyard.



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The cost and complications of completing the conversions for GNW two years (and however many additional miles on the clock) after GNE decided not to, would lead me to believe it is worth doing.

The donor Omnis appeared after the native ones received the upgrade or at least once the funding bid for the conversions had been found to be successful. 
If the bid wasn't successful, I'd hazard a guess that the donors wouldn't have appeared.