(28 Feb 2021, 12:36 am)James101 wrote That may be so, but may be no consolation to drivers whose depots have been closed and their job moved to a location unworkable for their circumstances so they’ve been pushed out. Arriva have closed Bishop, Peterlee, Richmond & Loftus in living memory and in other Op-Cos, say Midlands, Stafford closed a couple of years ago and the remaining operation in Cannock (a former HQ no less) has only just been taken over by D&G who are thinning out services and driver duties permanently at a pace. I hope all bus industry workers enjoy job security but the reality is it’s a diminishing industry. The beacon of hope for hospitality after the pandemic is that it’s clear people are generally gasping to get back out into pubs & restaurants. Recovery for bus travel, now that customers have had a year of getting used to travelling, working and shopping in a different way, is less clear.

I don't know how many times I've said it now (and I'll continue to say it), but operators just haven't adapted to changes in customer habits.
They cut services due to changes to passenger habits (or trot out the line), but across the country we see the same old types of services seen 20/30/40 years ago.

Shields was mentioned a while back and SNE continuing to work the estate - town centre services, despite the town centre dying on its arse and people going elsewhere (either for work or pleasure).
There's mention of the threat ANE would have if the B&T line reopened (yet very little about how they could adapt to compliment the line).
GNE constantly witter on about traffic in and around Gateshead, but don't do anything to open up new corridors so that some car users have the option of using public transport.
The network in central Gateshead hasn't evolved since the interchange opened more than 40 years ago and the only changes in West Gateshead seemed to occur back in 86 when the Metrocentre opened.

Liveries and on-board features are only part of the solution imo.

If you look at the hospitality trade now versus 10 - 20 years ago, it has adapted massively. Interior updates or changes to branding are just part of the adaptations. The core ingredients and options for customers a major part.
The innovators thrive and survive. The big chains stumble along, cutting venues to survive...

If a restaurant serve up the exact same menu as they did 30 years ago, they're asking for trouble. Yet operators continue to do just that...

(28 Feb 2021, 9:30 am)Andreos1 wrote I don't know how many times I've said it now (and I'll continue to say it), but operators just haven't adapted to changes in customer habits.
They cut services due to changes to passenger habits (or trot out the line), but across the country we see the same old types of services seen 20/30/40 years ago.

Shields was mentioned a while back and SNE continuing to work the estate - town centre services, despite the town centre dying on its arse and people going elsewhere (either for work or pleasure).
There's mention of the threat ANE would have if the B&T line reopened (yet very little about how they could adapt to compliment the line).
GNE constantly witter on about traffic in and around Gateshead, but don't do anything to open up new corridors so that some car users have the option of using public transport.
The network in central Gateshead hasn't evolved since the interchange opened more than 40 years ago and the only changes in West Gateshead seemed to occur back in 86 when the Metrocentre opened.

Liveries and on-board features are only part of the solution imo.

For Ashington, I'd say

Out of Town Shopping:
- Create a more frequent & streamlined service between Ashington, Bedlington & Cramlington. Would also act as a hub & spoke for a revised X21 (see below).

Competition with BRT:
- X22 scrapped (replaced with above) and X21 increased to every 15 mins with strong marketing. Runs via Hartlands instead of Nedderton giving faster & more frequent journeys from Bedlington Station.

- X21 between Ashington & Newbiggin reduced to hourly with X19 introduced from Newbiggin to Newcastle via Woodhorn then same route as X20. Would provide a "fast" bus every 30 mins between Wansbeck Hospital and Newcastle providing strong competition against the train with appropriate marketing.

(28 Feb 2021, 9:30 am)Andreos1 wrote I don't know how many times I've said it now (and I'll continue to say it), but operators just haven't adapted to changes in customer habits.
They cut services due to changes to passenger habits (or trot out the line), but across the country we see the same old types of services seen 20/30/40 years ago.

Shields was mentioned a while back and SNE continuing to work the estate - town centre services, despite the town centre dying on its arse and people going elsewhere (either for work or pleasure).
There's mention of the threat ANE would have if the B&T line reopened (yet very little about how they could adapt to compliment the line).
GNE constantly witter on about traffic in and around Gateshead, but don't do anything to open up new corridors so that some car users have the option of using public transport.
The network in central Gateshead hasn't evolved since the interchange opened more than 40 years ago and the only changes in West Gateshead seemed to occur back in 86 when the Metrocentre opened.

Liveries and on-board features are only part of the solution imo.

If you look at the hospitality trade now versus 10 - 20 years ago, it has adapted massively. Interior updates or changes to branding are just part of the adaptations. The core ingredients and options for customers a major part.
The innovators thrive and survive. The big chains stumble along, cutting venues to survive...

If a restaurant serve up the exact same menu as they did 30 years ago, they're asking for trouble. Yet operators continue to do just that...

Christ, are you feeling alright? Admitting that they are 'part' of the solution must have took some real courage  

GNE are starting to adapt to changing customer demands, with a number of services being adapted to serve retail parks, X21 to Tindale, 21 to Arnison, 10B to Tyne View. While I don't know what they're planning, I do get the feeling that had COVID not buggered things up we would have seen even more changes

(28 Feb 2021, 2:50 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Christ, are you feeling alright? Admitting that they are 'part' of the solution must have took some real courage  

GNE are starting to adapt to changing customer demands, with a number of services being adapted to serve retail parks, X21 to Tindale, 21 to Arnison, 10B to Tyne View. While I don't know what they're planning, I do get the feeling that had COVID not buggered things up we would have seen even more changes

I didn't say how small that part was though

To be fair, the X21 to Tindale means that those living in the estate who would get the 18, now can't and other links were also lost https://www.swd.news/shadow-transport-se...strations/ . So I'm not sure that adaptation was the best. 
The others, yes I agree. Those small extentions have the potential to make a big difference to those communities. 
However it still doesn't take away the fact that 99.9% of the network (whoever the operator) is pretty much as it was in the pte days (and probably earlier) across T&W and there's been many an opportunity prior to Covid to actually do something about it.
As drawn out as the last 12 months have been, it hasn't been around forever and I'd hope it isn't the 'excuse' we will see trotted out time after time.

Shields hasn't just been dying in the last 12months. 
The traffic around Team Valley hasn't just been causing issues to the 93/94 for the last 12months.
SE Northumberland has needed more than the network it has, for more than 12 months. 
East Cleveland needed fresh impetus and improved connections prior to Teesflex launching (otherwise it wouldn't have been launched...).
Hartlepool and its stand-alone network has needed work doing to it for longer than 12months.
Anyway, you get the gist.

Frankie & Bennies and Chiquitos dined-out on what worked 20-30 years ago.
Needless to say, they went the way they did, because they didn't adapt to changing customer needs, wants and expectations.
However many times we hear operators bleeting on about traffic lights, bus lanes and traffic jams - there is the potential for those operators to go exactly the same way as the once ubiquitous F&B's did (even after new tables, seats a refresh and re-brand) - because the customers adapting tastes aren't catered for.

I think Arriva should have one or the other Max or Sapphire brands, but look after them properly.
For example, they have Sapphire vehicles running on the X3/X4 that still have out of date internal marketing from when the buses were introduced. The plug sockets never work. The next stop display screens often dont work. The next stop announcements can have different names for the same bus stop depending on which bus you get.

The industry is going to face difficult times ahead as we come out of the pandemic, and I fear more cuts will be coming. Good quality branding and on-board features can only do so much, but at least these have been proven to increase passenger numbers when done well.

Arriva are just very half-hearted, lethargic and risk averse at the best of times, sadly.

I think the major issue here is the 'decline' seen since the money tap was turned off at the very top, ie Deutsche Bahn and the ongoing saga of attempting to sell/float (don't know what the current situation is!) the Arriva group across Europe. Until this is concluded the investment is seemingly not happening and with an ageing fleet, poor reliability looms and more cuts seem to be the only way to solve it at present. If DB can find a buyer (at a price they want, which seems to be the sticking point) then you may see fresh ideas and money to spend but until that time, I personally wonder what the future holds. I hope I'm wrong but I see death by a thousand cuts coming.

(03 Mar 2021, 12:26 pm)tyresmoke wrote I think the major issue here is the 'decline' seen since the money tap was turned off at the very top, ie Deutsche Bahn and the ongoing saga of attempting to sell/float (don't know what the current situation is!) the Arriva group across Europe. Until this is concluded the investment is seemingly not happening and with an ageing fleet, poor reliability looms and more cuts seem to be the only way to solve it at present. If DB can find a buyer (at a price they want, which seems to be the sticking point) then you may see fresh ideas and money to spend but until that time, I personally wonder what the future holds. I hope I'm wrong but I see death by a thousand cuts coming.

I think short term, there will no doubt be cuts to the major trunk service frequencies out of Blyth & Ashington.

Longer term if sold in units, I'd love to see GNE take the Ashington operations on.

Transdev would also be good for Redcar & Whitby.

This is what happens when DB purchased Arriva, all profits are used to upgrade and maintain their own transport infrastructure in there own country,and to maintain the UK bus side there asking for handouts from the UK government, this is what happened when the government stripped them from northern rail , it’s ashame the uk government could do the same to there buses in the UK, DB asking to much for the bus side and only selling as a job lot and not individually, since there realised there couldn’t sell as a job lot then there turned to floating it on the stock market.


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(03 Mar 2021, 5:32 pm)L469 YVK wrote I think short term, there will no doubt be cuts to the major trunk service frequencies out of Blyth & Ashington.

Longer term if sold in units, I'd love to see GNE take the Ashington operations on.

Transdev would also be good for Redcar & Whitby.

I'd like to see any of the operators try the odd new route and challenge another company's area maybe.

Once things reopen, people will looking to make the most of the summer and have trips out to the coast. Arriva could consider extending from Scarborough to the holiday camps, Filey and Bridlington as a limited summer service. Scarborough & District now part of Go North East could try competing, have the odd run through to Whitby/Middlesbrough, connect with their X9/X10 and promote some day returns.

I suspect not much will happen, but if I was in charge I'd at least be considering any numbers of ideas that get people back to using buses, or attract new customers. The decline in the industry may be inevitable, but I think without trying new things - which could be ticket offers, not just new routes - the decline is pretty much certain to continue.

(04 Mar 2021, 9:25 am)tvd wrote I'd like to see any of the operators try the odd new route and challenge another company's area maybe.

Once things reopen, people will looking to make the most of the summer and have trips out to the coast.  Arriva could consider extending from Scarborough to the holiday camps, Filey and Bridlington as a limited summer service.  Scarborough & District now part of Go North East could try competing, have the odd run through to Whitby/Middlesbrough, connect with their X9/X10 and promote some day returns.

I suspect not much will happen, but if I was in charge I'd at least be considering any numbers of ideas that get people back to using buses, or attract new customers.  The decline in the industry may be inevitable, but I think without trying new things - which could be ticket offers, not just new routes - the decline is pretty much certain to continue.

I disagree with this personally it never ends well and just leads to cheaper fares, horrid price wars and one of the companies losing out which never helps the operators - good for passengers though while it lasts.

Imo buses need to go the opposite way where the operator is irrelevant like with trains with the option to purchase tickets which go across multiple companies. For example if you get on a bus at Blyth for example and want to go to Scarborough one way, you can purchase a single all the way through and can use any bus to get there with a journey planner online which will tell you how to get there and what buses you need to use - even possibly only allow the tickets to be bought online before you even board the bus. Make the fact whether its GNE / Stagecoach / Arriva / Gateshead Taxis etc irrelevant otherwise it creates invisible barriers to travelling between areas.

(04 Mar 2021, 9:25 am)tvd wrote I'd like to see any of the operators try the odd new route and challenge another company's area maybe.

Once things reopen, people will looking to make the most of the summer and have trips out to the coast.  Arriva could consider extending from Scarborough to the holiday camps, Filey and Bridlington as a limited summer service.  Scarborough & District now part of Go North East could try competing, have the odd run through to Whitby/Middlesbrough, connect with their X9/X10 and promote some day returns.

I suspect not much will happen, but if I was in charge I'd at least be considering any numbers of ideas that get people back to using buses, or attract new customers.  The decline in the industry may be inevitable, but I think without trying new things - which could be ticket offers, not just new routes - the decline is pretty much certain to continue. 

There needs to be so much done on this imo. 
I don't think the industry thinks beyond interiors (and some operators - liveries and/or blinds).
They think interiors will fix everything. I don't think that is the case at all. 
Creativity and thinking differently will and can make a difference imo. 

Passengers are stuck with a network which was developed however many years ago. It hasn't changed or evolved to meet passenger needs. 
Whilst there may be an increase if a new bus rocks up which has pleather seats, plugs and WiFi - I don't see how those methods will sustain numbers once passengers realise that it's the same as it always was. It just has a different label and a slightly different recipe. 

I was reading that R&C Council are looking in to introducing pay and display parking across Saltburn to combat/take advantage all of the visitors travelling by car.
That's despite two trains an hour and 8/9 buses an hour passing through the town. 
If people can't get to Saltburn using public transport at all or very easily (maybe they can via 2 buses, hanging around waiting for connections in Boro or Redcar AND then a walk), it doesn't matter how nice the interior is or what sort of competition there is - they're not going to use anything other than the car.

At the risk of drifting off topic, apologies if so, I feel as if there is a 'group think' within large parts of the industry. Where I, as a potential passenger (not customer), am told what I want. All of the frilly stuff. Your fancy brands, wifi etc. But in actual fact, I don't want any of it. Yes, there's a place for it on certain services - your Arriva inter urban expresses as an example - but for the most part it's superfluous. A gimmick. I'm exactly the sort of person the industry should be chasing, yet if I didn't have an interest I wouldn't get the bus at all. It's an inconvenience when my car isn't available. For me, the industry needs to shift away from the 'a bus journey is a purchase of choice' mentality back to a 'provide a public service' mentality.

(04 Mar 2021, 12:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote There needs to be so much done on this imo. 
I don't think the industry thinks beyond interiors (and some operators - liveries and/or blinds).
They think interiors will fix everything. I don't think that is the case at all. 
Creativity and thinking differently will and can make a difference imo. 

Passengers are stuck with a network which was developed however many years ago. It hasn't changed or evolved to meet passenger needs. 
Whilst there may be an increase if a new bus rocks up which has pleather seats, plugs and WiFi - I don't see how those methods will sustain numbers once passengers realise that it's the same as it always was. It just has a different label and a slightly different recipe. 

I was reading that R&C Council are looking in to introducing pay and display parking across Saltburn to combat/take advantage all of the visitors travelling by car.
That's despite two trains an hour and 8/9 buses an hour passing through the town. 
If people can't get to Saltburn using public transport at all or very easily (maybe they can via 2 buses, hanging around waiting for connections in Boro or Redcar AND then a walk), it doesn't matter how nice the interior is or what sort of competition there is - they're not going to use anything other than the car.

For me, the biggest barrier for using the bus for everything is definitely ticketing. 
As I've said before, most of my travel can be done with GNE despite the only GNE service in my area being the X21 (during normal times I'd be up and down to Newcastle several times a week). But the rest of my travel I really do need an Arriva ticket, so I'm stuck buying both an Arriva and GNE ticket separately.
I'm not paying £11 a day for the Network One ticket since it's cheaper for me to buy both day tickets.
They say they're going to introduce a Durham SmartZone ticket, but I'm guessing it won't be any use for me since it'd then still have to buy another ticket to use when I go up to Newcastle.

The thing is though, I honestly can't think of a way to solve the problem in a way that would be better for my use case than just buying an Arriva and GNE ticket!

(04 Mar 2021, 12:47 pm)streetdeckfan wrote For me, the biggest barrier for using the bus for everything is definitely ticketing. 
As I've said before, most of my travel can be done with GNE despite the only GNE service in my area being the X21 (during normal times I'd be up and down to Newcastle several times a week). But the rest of my travel I really do need an Arriva ticket, so I'm stuck buying both an Arriva and GNE ticket separately.
I'm not paying £11 a day for the Network One ticket since it's cheaper for me to buy both day tickets.
They say they're going to introduce a Durham SmartZone ticket, but I'm guessing it won't be any use for me since it'd then still have to buy another ticket to use when I go up to Newcastle.

The thing is though, I honestly can't think of a way to solve the problem in a way that would be better for my use case than just buying an Arriva and GNE ticket!

I think ticket prices and offerings are part of the solution. 
However I don't think they're THE solution. 

I've been a long-time advocate of more attractive pricing and feel GNE have made a start on improving their package.
Whether other operators look to improve theirs, time will tell. 
I've called out ANE on some of their offerings in the past, elsewhere. An example of this would be a family ticket between Redcar/Saltburn and Whitby.
A trip of 20 or so miles requires a regionwide ticket - the same ticket would get you all the way to Berwick and back (assuming connections and journey times worked).

However, routes and connections are more important imo.
In another thread I mentioned the 78 and X21. Someone travelling from the Bournmoor/Lambton Estate/Biddick Woods type area to Durham takes 20mins in the car or the best part of an hour on the bus (including connections). Then there's the trip back after work. Two hours of the day lost vs 40mins in the car. 
Is it that unrealistic to expect the trip on the bus to work out similar (slightly longer perhaps)?

For the purposes of balance, the same can be said about getting to Redcar or Saltburn for a day out at the beach. It's 20mins in the car from the likes of Ingleby Barwick or Marton - yet more than an hour using public transport, including any time changing and hanging around in Boro. 
Then there's the trip back. 

The tickets can be as cheap as you make them. Install as many bus lanes and priority measures as you want. As many pleather seats as you can squeeze in, plugs, WiFi, pointless tweaks to blinds, funky liveries and some green leaves on the side - public transport is never going to win in those two cases unfortunately.
That's just two examples. There's many, many more.

(04 Mar 2021, 2:52 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think ticket prices and offerings are part of the solution. 
However I don't think they're THE solution. 

I've been a long-time advocate of more attractive pricing and feel GNE have made a start on improving their package.
Whether other operators look to improve theirs, time will tell. 
I've called out ANE on some of their offerings in the past, elsewhere. An example of this would be a family ticket between Redcar/Saltburn and Whitby.
A trip of 20 or so miles requires a regionwide ticket - the same ticket would get you all the way to Berwick and back (assuming connections and journey times worked).

However, routes and connections are more important imo.
In another thread I mentioned the 78 and X21. Someone travelling from the Bournmoor/Lambton Estate/Biddick Woods type area to Durham takes 20mins in the car or the best part of an hour on the bus (including connections). Then there's the trip back after work. Two hours of the day lost vs 40mins in the car. 
Is it that unrealistic to expect the trip on the bus to work out similar (slightly longer perhaps)?

For the purposes of balance, the same can be said about getting to Redcar or Saltburn for a day out at the beach. It's 20mins in the car from the likes of Ingleby Barwick or Marton - yet more than an hour using public transport, including any time changing and hanging around in Boro. 
Then there's the trip back. 

The tickets can be as cheap as you make them. Install as many bus lanes and priority measures as you want. As many pleather seats as you can squeeze in, plugs, WiFi, pointless tweaks to blinds, funky liveries and some green leaves on the side - public transport is never going to win in those two cases unfortunately.
That's just two examples. There's many, many more.

For the journey that I do, if I were to take the car it would take 40 minutes (you can do it in about 30 minutes if you need to), on the bus it takes over 2 hours! (including connections). 
I personally don't mind the journey because like I've said before, for an hour and a half of that time I'm on a bus with tables so I can get some work done, so for me it actually works out about the same as if I'd sat at home and did the work then took the car, except at a considerably lower cost.
But for people who aren't me it probably won't make sense!

(04 Mar 2021, 3:21 pm)streetdeckfan wrote For the journey that I do, if I were to take the car it would take 40 minutes (you can do it in about 30 minutes if you need to), on the bus it takes over 2 hours! (including connections). 
I personally don't mind the journey because like I've said before, for an hour and a half of that time I'm on a bus with tables so I can get some work done, so for me it actually works out about the same as if I'd sat at home and did the work then took the car, except at a considerably lower cost.
But for people who aren't me it probably won't make sense! 

Particularly if they've got their kids in tow and are off on a day out
However for those who are commuting, it's not the sort of thing you can do squashed on a streetlite travelling through Lumley - before packing it all up for 20mins and then getting it back out for another 20mins on the X21.

(04 Mar 2021, 3:30 pm)Andreos1 wrote Particularly if they've got their kids in tow and are off on a day out
However for those who are commuting, it's not the sort of thing you can do squashed on a streetlite travelling through Lumley - before packing it all up for 20mins and then getting it back out for another 20mins on the X21.

Actually, if you sit at the emergency exit (which is the only seat worth sitting at because A: it has leg room, and B: If you lean up against the door, it stops the rattle), then there is actually enough room to get a laptop out!
The only downside is the person setting above you can see exactly what you're doing.

(04 Mar 2021, 4:58 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Actually, if you sit at the emergency exit (which is the only seat worth sitting at because A: it has leg room, and B: If you lean up against the door, it stops the rattle), then there is actually enough room to get a laptop out!
The only downside is the person setting above you can see exactly what you're doing.

Was on a plane back from Europe once, aisle seat.  Diagonally across the aisle from me, and in the row in front, was one of the managers from the same company as me.  Laptop open, confidential personnel documents visible .......  I was VERY careful to keep my eyes averted!

Am going off topic a bit so maybe should start a new thread about what Arriva and others can do to increase bus usage.

(05 Mar 2021, 8:55 am)tvd wrote Am going off topic a bit so maybe should start a new thread about what Arriva and others can do to increase bus usage.

There's a thread elsewhere in the forum about the decline in passenger numbers. 
Could that work?

(04 Mar 2021, 6:20 pm)Ianthegoon wrote Was on a plane back from Europe once, aisle seat.  Diagonally across the aisle from me, and in the row in front, was one of the managers from the same company as me.  Laptop open, confidential personnel documents visible .......  I was VERY careful to keep my eyes averted!

You're a better person than me! I'd have got the camera out!
I only ever have confidential files open if there's nobody behind me, and even then I make the text small enough so I can barely read it!

Still on all the x12s and saw an x66/x67 on the x12, the other day. 

More to the point, it might change in the brave new post-covid world but arriva are paying little attention to branding, atm.

---

(26 Feb 2021, 12:31 am)peter wrote The 43/44/45 upgrade also coincided with complaints from the residents of Gosforth about the poor environmental standard of the Great North Road ALX400's which previously operated on those routes. The arrival of the MMCs and the displacement of the older X21/22 E400's (some of which were a bit worse for wear after use on the X93 in the past) aligned perfectly with the requested removal of those elderly ex-london ALX400's and sticking them on a double-deck route that wouldn't be too taxing, rather than it being a genuine desire to upgrade them to 'Sapphire.' If they hadn't been Sapphire already, I doubt they would have been upgraded for those routes specifically, but the fact that they were would have been a bonus for passengers and possibly helped to improve patronage/public perception considering the previous option were W/X/Y-reg standard spec vehicles.

Yet Durham is still stuck with them.

(06 Mar 2021, 11:43 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Yet Durham is still stuck with them.

In fairness, the ALX400's Durham have are 55-reg, MAX standard and Euro 3 which is a tad better than W/X/Y-reg, bog standard and Euro 2! Having said that, with those older ones going in 2017, you'd hope the 55-reg ones were stood down sooner rather than later!

(07 Mar 2021, 1:28 pm)peter wrote In fairness, the ALX400's Durham have are 55-reg, MAX standard and Euro 3 which is a tad better than W/X/Y-reg, bog standard and Euro 2! Having said that, with those older ones going in 2017, you'd hope the 55-reg ones were stood down sooner rather than later!

Plenty of 51 and 02 plate B7s still going so they'll be looking for at least another 3 or 4 years out of them.

3 of my 4 Arriva rides this week were MAX vehicles: 7511 on route X20, 7605 on route X10 and 1495 on route 306. My other ride was 1575 on route 52.

Seeing as the 43/44/45 have branded MAX E400's, what is the PVR of the 3 routes? 
And do they really require double deckers? as I see more single deckers on them.

Edit : *I meant Sapphire

Not sure but the 45 PVR and 44 is 3 I think. Deckers are needed for the 43 but not sure on the 44. 45 I guess so

7622 has been debrand of Max and now shows Arriva logo in place of the Max logo

https://flic.kr/p/2mtCefz (photo by me today)

(23 Sep 2021, 4:18 pm)Train8261 wrote 7622 has been debrand of Max and now shows Arriva logo in place of the Max logo

https://flic.kr/p/2mtCefz (photo by me today)

It's very courteous that you credit who's photo it is lol

(23 Sep 2021, 4:18 pm)Train8261 wrote 7622 has been debrand of Max and now shows Arriva logo in place of the Max logo

https://flic.kr/p/2mtCefz (photo by me today)

All Blyth non 308 branded Geminis are being done like this.