https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...CMEyzrP1-U


(with a hilarious photograph!)

(22 Oct 2021, 2:59 pm)Dan wrote https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...CMEyzrP1-U


(with a hilarious photograph!)

Oh great, gonna be a nightmare getting to work, but I'm all for them getting better wages!

(22 Oct 2021, 3:05 pm)Michael wrote Oh great, gonna be a nightmare getting to work, but I'm all for them getting better wages!

Just aswell i can get the 309 and 12 to college otherwise i'd be screwed

(22 Oct 2021, 3:32 pm)V514DFT wrote Just aswell i can get the 309 and 12 to college otherwise i'd be screwed

If its every bus (likely to have some still running), using the 20 or 35 wouldn't even get to work for 7am - 20 will arrive just before 7 (then its a 10 min walk)

Across 3 Newcastle home games too.

I’m not adverse to other depots earning less if it’s based on finance. Retail pay differs depending on the grade and banding of shop you operate in. So if Newcastle brings in more cash than Stockton then I’d support paying more to Newcastle.

If that’s not the case then dodgy grounds but again short sighted from the union, they have to build up passenger confidence and short notice cancellations and strikes will turn people to cars, Ubers and other methods. The only ones who will suffer are those at the bottom rung with no other options

(22 Oct 2021, 4:47 pm)Ambassador wrote Across 3 Newcastle home games too.

I’m not adverse to other depots earning less if it’s based on finance. Retail pay differs depending on the grade and banding of shop you operate in. So if Newcastle brings in more cash than Stockton then I’d support paying more to Newcastle.

If that’s not the case then dodgy grounds but again short sighted from the union, they have to build up passenger confidence and short notice cancellations and strikes will turn people to cars, Ubers and other methods. The only ones who will suffer are those at the bottom rung with no other options

Why blame the Union? Why not blame the company for paying their drivers a decent wage? If they did maybe there wouldn't be strike action.

(22 Oct 2021, 4:52 pm)deanmachine wrote Why blame the Union? Why not blame the company for paying their drivers a decent wage? If they did maybe there wouldn't be strike action.

A qualified driver at 22k-25k is a decent wage for this region for a manual job. Even newly qualified at £19k relative to the North East isn’t a bad wage. Probably much higher than the majority of passengers you’re about to seriously piss off. 

the days of public opinion being behind unions are long long gone

(22 Oct 2021, 4:56 pm)Ambassador wrote A qualified driver at 22k-25k is a decent wage for this region for a manual job. Even newly qualified at £19k relative to the North East isn’t a bad wage. Probably much higher than the majority of passengers you’re about to seriously piss off. 

the days of public opinion being behind unions are long long gone

I don't work for Stagecoach btw, but the fact is people are leaving the job for other areas at a similar pay rate for less hassle. making the driver shortage worse, lowering the morale of everyone else there. If they're not willing to keep the driver's happy this is going to happen, I really don't understand this sort of attitude towards unions.

(22 Oct 2021, 4:47 pm)Ambassador wrote Across 3 Newcastle home games too.

I’m not adverse to other depots earning less if it’s based on finance. Retail pay differs depending on the grade and banding of shop you operate in. So if Newcastle brings in more cash than Stockton then I’d support paying more to Newcastle.

If that’s not the case then dodgy grounds but again short sighted from the union, they have to build up passenger confidence and short notice cancellations and strikes will turn people to cars, Ubers and other methods. The only ones who will suffer are those at the bottom rung with no other options

Just the one for Sunderland, when we face Ipswich on the 20th November.

Unions are good tbh, they really help, if you need support with work.

(22 Oct 2021, 4:47 pm)Ambassador wrote Across 3 Newcastle home games too.

I’m not adverse to other depots earning less if it’s based on finance. Retail pay differs depending on the grade and banding of shop you operate in. So if Newcastle brings in more cash than Stockton then I’d support paying more to Newcastle.

If that’s not the case then dodgy grounds but again short sighted from the union, they have to build up passenger confidence and short notice cancellations and strikes will turn people to cars, Ubers and other methods. The only ones who will suffer are those at the bottom rung with no other options

Why would a bus driver give a toss about passenger confidence and whether someone can get somewhere.

It's disgusting one depot is being paid more/less than another depot, borderline illegal. The person does the same job as the other person it's not their fault that one depot makes more money than the other. Absolutely ridiculous view and there's some nonsense posted on here.

Then people wonder on here why bus drivers stick there fingers up when when your taking photos at the side of the road...

(22 Oct 2021, 6:51 pm)Storx wrote Why would a bus driver give a toss about passenger confidence and whether someone can get somewhere.

It's disgusting one depot is being paid more/less than another depot, borderline illegal. The person does the same job as the other person it's not their fault that one depot makes more money than the other. Absolutely ridiculous view and there's some nonsense posted on here.

Then people wonder on here why bus drivers stick there fingers up when when your taking photos at the side of the road...

Bus drivers should care, because the customers that board their buses are the ones paying their wages…

If they don’t care about passenger confidence and customers being able to make journeys, then they might as well pack up and go home now.

If you’re suggesting otherwise then I’m afraid I think this post is more nonsensical than the one you’re replying to?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(22 Oct 2021, 6:59 pm)Dan wrote Bus drivers should care, because the customers that board their buses are the ones paying their wages…

If they don’t care about passenger confidence and customers being able to make journeys, then they might as well pack up and go home now.

If you’re suggesting otherwise then I’m afraid I think this post is more nonsensical than the one you’re replying to?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can't dispute that but should and do are two totally different things. Let's be honest outside of working hours they won't care, some probably don't even care while working but hopefully there's few of them. They'll definitely care about their wages though.

When your find out someone doing the same job is being paid more because he works at Newcastle and your at South Shields and there's an offer of strike action to sort it out I'd be very surprised if any bus driver's first thought is; Well I shouldn't strike because Betty on the 12 can't get to the shops and it might damage the companies reputation. They'll be more bothered about the polar opposite and want to cause the reputation problems, what's the point in striking otherwise.

Not saying it's right but it's reality really.

(22 Oct 2021, 4:56 pm)Ambassador wrote A qualified driver at 22k-25k is a decent wage for this region for a manual job. Even newly qualified at £19k relative to the North East isn’t a bad wage. Probably much higher than the majority of passengers you’re about to seriously piss off. 

the days of public opinion being behind unions are long long gone

 
You're never going to gain public support for strikes because of the very nature of strike action. Let's not forget that it's an absolute last resort though, and that it takes two to tango. 

Having ran disputes myself, people are generally quick to blame the Unions, yet unwilling to give up anything that the unions have won them over the years. You'll find that even the drivers opposed to strike action won't think twice about rejecting any pay award that comes as a result of it...

(22 Oct 2021, 3:45 pm)Michael wrote If its every bus (likely to have some still running), using the 20 or 35 wouldn't even get to work for 7am - 20 will arrive just before 7 (then its a 10 min walk)

Damn,i feel sorry for you mate

---

(22 Oct 2021, 5:02 pm)deanmachine wrote I don't work for Stagecoach btw, but the fact is people are leaving the job for other areas at a similar pay rate for less hassle. making the driver shortage worse, lowering the morale of everyone else there. If they're not willing to keep the driver's happy this is going to happen, I really don't understand this sort of attitude towards unions.

Classic domino effect

(22 Oct 2021, 8:05 pm)V514DFT wrote Damn,i feel sorry for you mate

---

Classic domino effect

I hope that was sarcasm haha

But my work is quite good at working around our shifts so hopefully this won't be a problem.

(22 Oct 2021, 4:56 pm)Ambassador wrote A qualified driver at 22k-25k is a decent wage for this region for a manual job. Even newly qualified at £19k relative to the North East isn’t a bad wage. Probably much higher than the majority of passengers you’re about to seriously piss off. 

the days of public opinion being behind unions are long long gone

I like unions. They got us ALL sick pay, paid annual leave, bank holidays. The list goes on!  It amazes me those who criticise unions but like to share the spoils they win there members, unless of course you take zero annual leave where you work and a bank holiday is just like any other day... and when your on sick you just go without?

Information should be on the site in the next few days about the strike.

(22 Oct 2021, 2:59 pm)Dan wrote https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...CMEyzrP1-U


(with a hilarious photograph!)

Some of the comments on there, dear me!  Not sure which ones are worse, these ones are the ones accompanying the Northern Echo story on GNE.

Found this on the Stagecoach site:

Despite the ongoing challenges of the Covid-19 pandemic, Stagecoach has already agreed a pay deal with drivers in Sunderland under the GMB Union, which is in line with the deal offered and rejected elsewhere in the North East. Stagecoach has also agreed pay deals with Unite at the majority of its depots across the UK.

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and...ial-action

(30 Oct 2021, 11:15 am)Michael wrote Found this on the Stagecoach site:

Despite the ongoing challenges of the Covid-19 pandemic, Stagecoach has already agreed a pay deal with drivers in Sunderland under the GMB Union, which is in line with the deal offered and rejected elsewhere in the North East. Stagecoach has also agreed pay deals with Unite at the majority of its depots across the UK.

https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and...ial-action

"Drivers offered a deal that would see pay being increased by 4% since the start of the pandemic"
So I wonder is that 4% over a two-year deal backdated? Or 4% for this year, when I assume nothing was offered last?

Bit cheap to point at GMB accepting the deal. It's as much their prerogative to accept one as Unite's not to accept one.

(25 Oct 2021, 12:18 pm)Chris 1 wrote Some of the comments on there, dear me!  Not sure which ones are worse, these ones are the ones accompanying the Northern Echo story on GNE.

Glass houses and throwing stones..

(30 Oct 2021, 1:55 pm)Adrian wrote "Drivers offered a deal that would see pay being increased by 4% since the start of the pandemic"
So I wonder is that 4% over a two-year deal backdated? Or 4% for this year, when I assume nothing was offered last?

Bit cheap to point at GMB accepting the deal. It's as much their prerogative to accept one as Unite's not to accept one.

Didn't Stagecoach still get a 2% wage increase this year or last, sure someone said that.

So would suggest it's just a 2% rise. The 4% 'since the start of the pandemic' is very odd wording otherwise.

(30 Oct 2021, 1:55 pm)Adrian wrote "Drivers offered a deal that would see pay being increased by 4% since the start of the pandemic"
So I wonder is that 4% over a two-year deal backdated? Or 4% for this year, when I assume nothing was offered last?

Bit cheap to point at GMB accepting the deal. It's as much their prerogative to accept one as Unite's not to accept one.

It's the usual PR rubbish from both sides. Similar to Unite not quoting the actual financials from Busways Travel Services as it won't sound as good but it more pertinent...

(30 Oct 2021, 1:55 pm)Adrian wrote "Drivers offered a deal that would see pay being increased by 4% since the start of the pandemic"
So I wonder is that 4% over a two-year deal backdated? Or 4% for this year, when I assume nothing was offered last?

Bit cheap to point at GMB accepting the deal. It's as much their prerogative to accept one as Unite's not to accept one.

They got 2% last year (a previous two-year deal), and I believe this is another 2% for this year - so the 4% line isn’t inaccurate but slightly misleading and clearly quoted for effect.

That said, the offer is probably the best out of the three (believe neither Arriva nor Go North East received payrises last year and the latter are at a 3.5% offer currently).

When it’s quite clear that all three operators are loss-making currently, my personal view is that the current offers on the table at all three operators are acceptable and should be taken on a six-month basis (rather than a year), then further talks continue at that point when certainty of revenue in the wider context of a BSIP is more guaranteed.

It does seem like Unite’s ambition is to have Arriva Northumbria, Go North East and Stagecoach all participating in industrial action at the same time. I’m in favour of trade unions fighting for better pay and conditions for their members (and in turn the wider workforce) but I’m not sure it sits right with me that industrial action is seemingly being coordinated and there’s a dispute over money that the companies simply do not have at this time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was in the Unite union and I've recently left after 20 years in it. Complete waste of money. The main rep gets a piss easy ride in return for towing the company line. Gets paid 41 hous a week for 15 hours of actual work, paid until 4pm and leaves for home at 3pm every day.

(30 Oct 2021, 8:11 pm)Dan wrote It does seem like Unite’s ambition is to have Arriva Northumbria, Go North East and Stagecoach all participating in industrial action at the same time. I’m in favour of trade unions fighting for better pay and conditions for their members (and in turn the wider workforce) but I’m not sure it sits right with me that industrial action is seemingly being coordinated and there’s a dispute over money that the companies simply do not have at this time.

It's the most effective way to apply leverage with industrial action, so they'd be mad to not coordinate it. We saw with Arriva two years ago and Go North West more recently, that when its not coordinated, other operators couldn't be quicker to 'help out' with strike-breakers. If any one of the big three went out alone up here, we all know they'd be straight on the phone to the other two to lend a hand and to try and undermine the strike

In regard to companies not having the money. Something has got to give, because we've had over a decade of wage squeeze now, where we've seen wages fail to keep up with inflation and the private sector will continue to plead poverty unless forced into it.

The Govt has quite rightly increased NLW to £9.50 (6.60%) from the new tax year in April, giving it a rate of growth of 31% since 2016.

At what point do you tackle it? The classic line during any industrial action is usually that it'll cost jobs etc, but if its allowed to continue, then in another 10-15 years time, people literally won't be able to afford to work in these jobs anyway. Draw a trend line with the rate of inflation and the decline in wages and that gap keeps getting bigger.



Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

---

(30 Oct 2021, 11:10 pm)Driver9*** wrote I was in the Unite union and I've recently left after 20 years in it. Complete waste of money. The main rep gets a piss easy ride in return for towing the company line. Gets paid 41 hous a week for 15 hours of actual work, paid until 4pm and leaves for home at 3pm every day.

If that's the case, why don't you just change the rep? Its a democracy after all.

I've been a rep for the majority of my working life and have stood election every single year. I'd be more than happy for someone else to take it on, if they fancied a go at it. At least I'd get some of the countless hours of my own time back that the role inevitably spills over into!

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

---

(30 Oct 2021, 5:54 pm)DeltaMan wrote It's the usual PR rubbish from both sides. Similar to Unite not quoting the actual financials from Busways Travel Services as it won't sound as good but it more pertinent...

The press release wars are often the worst part of any dispute. I'm interested in these figures though, because I can only see the May 2020 figures on Companies House and they still show a pre-tax profit of £8.5m at a glance.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

(31 Oct 2021, 12:04 am)Adrian wrote It's the most effective way to apply leverage with industrial action, so they'd be mad to not coordinate it. We saw with Arriva two years ago and Go North West more recently, that when its not coordinated, other operators couldn't be quicker to 'help out' with strike-breakers. If any one of the big three went out alone up here, we all know they'd be straight on the phone to the other two to lend a hand and to try and undermine the strike

I think the world is in a different place now, especially with the labour shortage - operators cannot cover their own work, let alone the work of other operators.

Regardless, we've discussed elsewhere on the forum that the current driver shortage could have a huge negative impact on the great work that's been achieved by operators in trying to build back passenger numbers and increase revenue. Can't the exact same be said about industrial action?

If it has a negative impact on passenger numbers, and in turn revenue, then the desired payrise is going to be even less likely to be affordable. There seems to be little in the way of joined up thinking, purely looking at the here and now and immediate benefit rather than thinking longer term. Trade unions for many years have recommended offers of 2% and members accepted them - that was when bus operators were in a much stronger position financially. Now passenger numbers have dropped off a cliff and revenue has been severely impacted making operators loss-making businesses, they're wanting to fight for more? As I say, I'm in favour of trade unions fighting for the best they can achieve in normal circumstances, but this reeks. I know industrial action is a last resort, but there's a lot of animosity on the ground among staff at bus companies at the moment, largely driven by the pay dispute. I have known drivers leave and move to independent operators (for less pay) purely because they're sick and tired of it all...

(31 Oct 2021, 6:13 am)Dan wrote I think the world is in a different place now, especially with the labour shortage - operators cannot cover their own work, let alone the work of other operators.

Regardless, we've discussed elsewhere on the forum that the current driver shortage could have a huge negative impact on the great work that's been achieved by operators in trying to build back passenger numbers and increase revenue. Can't the exact same be said about industrial action?

If it has a negative impact on passenger numbers, and in turn revenue, then the desired payrise is going to be even less likely to be affordable. There seems to be little in the way of joined up thinking, purely looking at the here and now and immediate benefit rather than thinking longer term. Trade unions for many years have recommended offers of 2% and members accepted them - that was when bus operators were in a much stronger position financially. Now passenger numbers have dropped off a cliff and revenue has been severely impacted making operators loss-making businesses, they're wanting to fight for more? As I say, I'm in favour of trade unions fighting for the best they can achieve in normal circumstances, but this reeks. I know industrial action is a last resort, but there's a lot of animosity on the ground among staff at bus companies at the moment, largely driven by the pay dispute.  I have known drivers leave and move to independent operators (for less pay) purely because they're sick and tired of it all... 

This isn't a new thing though. It's not unique to pay disputes and there are many reasons why drivers leave to go to an independent.

Independents need to get drivers from somewhere (they wouldn't exist otherwise) and if they can offer something that a big operator can't and it ticks the drivers motivating factor, then good luck to them.

(31 Oct 2021, 12:09 am)Adrian wrote If that's the case, why don't you just change the rep? Its a democracy after all.

I've been a rep for the majority of my working life and have stood election every single year. I'd be more than happy for someone else to take it on, if they fancied a go at it. At least I'd get some of the countless hours of my own time back that the role inevitably spills over into!

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

There was a person who stood against him for election a few years back. A poll of the drivers seemed to suggest the majority had voted for him yet he lost by a landslide. Read into that what you will.

I've calculated I've given Unite roughly £3500 in fees over the years, in return for them negotiating slightly below inflation rate pay rises year after year.

(31 Oct 2021, 6:13 am)Dan wrote I think the world is in a different place now, especially with the labour shortage - operators cannot cover their own work, let alone the work of other operators.

Regardless, we've discussed elsewhere on the forum that the current driver shortage could have a huge negative impact on the great work that's been achieved by operators in trying to build back passenger numbers and increase revenue. Can't the exact same be said about industrial action?

If it has a negative impact on passenger numbers, and in turn revenue, then the desired payrise is going to be even less likely to be affordable. There seems to be little in the way of joined up thinking, purely looking at the here and now and immediate benefit rather than thinking longer term. Trade unions for many years have recommended offers of 2% and members accepted them - that was when bus operators were in a much stronger position financially. Now passenger numbers have dropped off a cliff and revenue has been severely impacted making operators loss-making businesses, they're wanting to fight for more? As I say, I'm in favour of trade unions fighting for the best they can achieve in normal circumstances, but this reeks. I know industrial action is a last resort, but there's a lot of animosity on the ground among staff at bus companies at the moment, largely driven by the pay dispute. I have known drivers leave and move to independent operators (for less pay) purely because they're sick and tired of it all...

Agree that the driver shortage can and is having a huge negative impact on the work that's been done in building back passenger numbers, and I also agree that industrial action creates an air of uncertainty for customers, which isn't good for those you've just encouraged to start using public transport etc. It takes two to tango though. I know that neither the company nor the Union actually want to take industrial action, and agree it's an absolute last resort, but sometimes a necessary resort when there's a complete breakdown of negotiation or relations.  I've been involved in taking members out in dispute in the past and its never been a decision taken lightly, and without consideration of the wider impact and consequences.

I can't really comment on the offers as I've never seen them in the finer details. In my experience though, often the headline figure does not tell the full story, as employers (and Unions for that matter) like to add conditions onto an offer. Whether that be changes to working practices to the detriment or benefit, changes to working hours, changes to performance and progression systems and so on. I would however reiterate the point that we've had over a decade of wage squeeze now, which the majority of the private sector has contributed towards. It was always going to crack at some point.

I think operators need to look a lot harder than potential trade disputes of reasons why people are leaving though. I read something last week that there are over 4,000 vacancies for bus drivers across the UK at the moment, with it being reported that drivers are leaving 'in their droves' for better-paid HGV jobs. I realise that the current DVSA industrial action is playing a part in the backlog of getting paperwork through, but the high turnover of staff in the industry has been a problem for years. No one has really tried to solve it, as there's always been an influx of as many coming in as those that are going out through those revolving doors.

When the two industries offer largely the same Victorian-era working-standards for drivers, it's always going to come down to pay, and also the added bonus that you don't have to work with the general public when driving a HGV.

Last point I'd make is that we shouldn't forget that key workers (such as bus drivers) have been lauded throughout this pandemic, and rightly so. The endless clapping, thank yous and other plaudits simply do not pay the bills though, and its up to those businesses (and Government for the Public Sector) to put their money where their mouth was now. The NHS has only been offered a measly 3% after over a decade of pay restraint, and being forced to work in dangerous conditions throughout the pandemic without adequate PPE.

(31 Oct 2021, 10:57 am)Andreos1 wrote This isn't a new thing though. It's not unique to pay disputes and there are many reasons why drivers leave to go to an independent.

Independents need to get drivers from somewhere (they wouldn't exist otherwise) and if they can offer something that a big operator can't and it ticks the drivers motivating factor, then good luck to them.

Also when it comes down to being a race to the bottom over pay rates, you lose any kind of loyalty from your workforce. I can imagine people would join independents for an easier life, given some of the conditions and working hours they're asked to work under with larger operations. The likes of GCT might prove more attractive with a more 'laid-back' approach to operating (and everything else)

You see it all the time with the likes of call centres popping up, where there's no loyalty and people will keep hopping around the same business park in hope of getting an extra 10p an hour.