(19 Mar 2022, 4:04 pm)Adrian wrote Looks like this is going to drag on for even longer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-60791617

and so it should. The services using Blackett Street are the busiest in the north east and serve areas of high population density.
There aren’t really any suitable alternative routes with creating “bus jams” and little suitable pavement space for stops.
The last thing that operators need whilst trying to get passengers back on their buses is for them to be dumped at unsuitable stops.

(20 Mar 2022, 7:00 pm)busmanT wrote and so it should. The services using Blackett Street are the busiest in the north east and serve areas of high population density.
There aren’t really any suitable alternative routes with creating “bus jams” and little suitable pavement space for stops.
The last thing that operators need whilst trying to get passengers back on their buses is for them to be dumped at unsuitable stops.

We'll see in time, but I can't see the Planning Inspectorate ruling in bus operators favour here.

The argument that a move away from Blackett Street would be to the detriment of elderly and disabled people is pretty baseless. Waiting facilities on Blackett Street are pretty poor and has become dangerous for pedestrians due to over-bussing. 

Arguably a bus station provides better waiting facilities for everyone, especially the elderly and disabled. It also takes customers straight into Eldon Square, avoiding the elements. If Blackett Street services were diverted into Eldon Square, then the only shopping area that would be slightly further away is the Grainger Market, but a Market Street/Newgate Street loop would actually improve access.

(20 Mar 2022, 8:19 pm)Adrian wrote We'll see in time, but I can't see the Planning Inspectorate ruling in bus operators favour here.

The argument that a move away from Blackett Street would be to the detriment of elderly and disabled people is pretty baseless. Waiting facilities on Blackett Street are pretty poor and has become dangerous for pedestrians due to over-bussing. 

Arguably a bus station provides better waiting facilities for everyone, especially the elderly and disabled. It also takes customers straight into Eldon Square, avoiding the elements. If Blackett Street services were diverted into Eldon Square, then the only shopping area that would be slightly further away is the Grainger Market, but a Market Street/Newgate Street loop would actually improve access.

Could Eldon Square accommodate the Blackett Street buses?

(20 Mar 2022, 8:32 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Could Eldon Square accommodate the Blackett Street buses?

I think that's the fundamental problem here!  Eldon Square is already too full of vehicles, there's bus congestion on the roads leading to and from that area, and there's then a whole raft of additional routes that need to be squeezed through the centre somehow.  I can see the benefit of making Blackett Street pedestrian, but I cannot work out where you could then send the buses!  At least, not without causing other problems.

(20 Mar 2022, 9:10 pm)Ianthegoon wrote I think that's the fundamental problem here!  Eldon Square is already too full of vehicles, there's bus congestion on the roads leading to and from that area, and there's then a whole raft of additional routes that need to be squeezed through the centre somehow.  I can see the benefit of making Blackett Street pedestrian, but I cannot work out where you could then send the buses!  At least, not without causing other problems.

The junctions around the city’s bus loop have been/are being upgraded with a combination of bus priority measures and new smart traffic signals. Additional bus stops are being created to accommodate the displayed routes. 
I don’t think cross city services should be put into bus stations as calling at a bus station takes longer than calling at an on street bus stop.

(20 Mar 2022, 9:10 pm)Ianthegoon wrote I think that's the fundamental problem here!  Eldon Square is already too full of vehicles, there's bus congestion on the roads leading to and from that area, and there's then a whole raft of additional routes that need to be squeezed through the centre somehow.  I can see the benefit of making Blackett Street pedestrian, but I cannot work out where you could then send the buses!  At least, not without causing other problems.

Also, there are stops everywhere which they are planning to add on main busy streets, which can be quite dodgy compared to a bus station. 
Really they could give eldon square to Stagecoach, Extend Haymarket with one or two extra stands. And build a larger bus station near by for GNE.

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(20 Mar 2022, 10:18 pm)ne14ne1 wrote The junctions around the city’s bus loop have been/are being upgraded with a combination of bus priority measures and new smart traffic signals. Additional bus stops are being created to accommodate the displayed routes. 
I don’t think cross city services should be put into bus stations as calling at a bus station takes longer than calling at an on street bus stop.

I hope these new smart traffic signals aren't like smart motorways

They should turn Clayton Street / Nun Street / Grainger Street / Newgate Street into a gyratory imo with all buses running around in a clockwise circle (I know slightly longer for buses heading towards High Level) with Grainger Street still being two way. Then turn Newgate / Nun / Clayton streets into bus stops. They're all wide enough for bays if you removed the taxi ranks, loading bays and parking and all could do with a boost in trade.

The taxi rank can be moved into the bus stop opposite of Sinners which is unused.

Could they not knock down Eldon Square Garden thing, and just put another bus station in there for SC or which ever way they want to do it. So each company has a segregated area to stop in, obvs there might be the rare GCT bus or something. Or knock down whats infront of haymarket

(20 Mar 2022, 10:56 pm)No Storx wrote They should turn Clayton Street / Nun Street / Grainger Street / Newgate Street into a gyratory imo with all buses running around in a clockwise circle (I know slightly longer for buses heading towards High Level) with Grainger Street still being two way. Then turn Newgate / Nun / Clayton streets into bus stops. They're all wide enough for bays if you removed the taxi ranks, loading bays and parking and all could do with a boost in trade.

The taxi rank can be moved into the bus stop opposite of Sinners which is unused.

Details of the bus loop, proposed new bus stops, relocated taxi ranks, restrictions on loading, pedestrianisation etc can all be found on NCCs website: 

https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/our-city/tr...provements

(20 Mar 2022, 11:02 pm)Unber43 wrote Could they not knock down Eldon Square Garden thing, and just put another bus station in there for SC or which ever way they want to do it. So each company has a segregated area to stop in, obvs there might be the rare GCT bus or something. Or knock down whats infront of haymarket

Sounds like a lot of compulsory purchasing required. Would be very costly for a bus station. And would we really want all buses congregating/terminating at a single point in the city centre. Not everyone is heading to Eldon Sq.  

I don’t like this idea of bus company’s being segregated into their own bus stations. 
It might be fun for spotters but there must be a more logical reason such as grouping services by the direction they’re heading or for easy/popular onward connections.
At the end of the day the goal is that passengers won’t need to worry about who is operating which service. It should all be seamless and integrated.

A new bus station or designated area for buses to set down/pick up in newcastle that is buses only (so no taxis/private cars/ delivery lorries/ cray fast food delivery drivers) is needed on the market street/joun dobson street side of eldon square, Stagecoach are pushing the line of loosing passengers due to them having to walk from further away if blackett street is closed to all traffic, but the thousands of elderly passengers every day who board and alight on market street every day because they dont serve blackett street or eldon square seem to manage alright, so could the passenger who currently alight/board in blackett street, they will only moan for a week or so then just carry on regardless

(21 Mar 2022, 1:32 pm)N1cholas wrote Stagecoach are pushing the line of loosing passengers due to them having to walk from further away if blackett street is closed to all traffic, but the thousands of elderly passengers every day who board and alight on market street every day because they dont serve blackett street or eldon square seem to manage alright, so could the passenger who currently alight/board in blackett street, they will only moan for a week or so then just carry on regardless

Completely agree

(21 Mar 2022, 12:53 pm)ne14ne1 wrote Details of the bus loop, proposed new bus stops, relocated taxi ranks, restrictions on loading, pedestrianisation etc can all be found on NCCs website: 

https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/our-city/tr...provements

Yeah I knew about that thanks.

Just think using Nun Street would be handy and give more space rather than having everything jammed up on Market Street. The streets not pleasant as it is anyway.

(21 Mar 2022, 12:53 pm)ne14ne1 wrote Details of the bus loop, proposed new bus stops, relocated taxi ranks, restrictions on loading, pedestrianisation etc can all be found on NCCs website: 

https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/our-city/tr...provements

That just fuels my concern that they'll be trying to squeeze more buses into roads that already have problems, with the added "bonus" of a free circular sightseeing tour all around the outside of the centre, with correspondingly increased journey times for those who need to cross.

With regards to having several small, separated, bus stations, one of the reasons I go into the centre is to change buses, so forcing a change of bus station as well will certainly help to discourage bus use!

(21 Mar 2022, 3:00 pm)Storx wrote Yeah I knew about that thanks.

Just think using Nun Street would be handy and give more space rather than having everything jammed up on Market Street. The streets not pleasant as it is anyway.

Are the corners on Nun St feasible for buses to be going along there in a frequent basis?

On a slightly different note, if Nun St does come off, it will be interesting to see how the number of pedestrian vs bus incidents happen outside The Black Garter compare to the comings together on Blackett St.

(21 Mar 2022, 3:34 pm)Andreos1 wrote Are the corners on Nun St feasible for buses to be going along there in a frequent basis?

On a slightly different note, if Nun St does come off, it will be interesting to see how the number of pedestrian vs bus incidents happen outside The Black Garter compare to the comings together on Blackett St.

the surely not send buses passed the garter???  the road is tiny along there

(21 Mar 2022, 3:46 pm)Rob44 wrote the surely not send buses passed the garter???  the road is tiny along there

I got mixed up between Nelson St and Nun St. Always have done, but both lead on to the stretch of Clayton St where the Black Garter is.

Thank the lord for that. Last thing I want is to be knocked over when leaving the garter tipsy and be knocked over by a big bus!!!

(21 Mar 2022, 3:34 pm)Andreos1 wrote Are the corners on Nun St feasible for buses to be going along there in a frequent basis?

On a slightly different note, if Nun St does come off, it will be interesting to see how the number of pedestrian vs bus incidents happen outside The Black Garter compare to the comings together on Blackett St.

Yeah as someone said later Nun Street is the other side of Wilko, can't see why they couldn't fit down there though, you could easily widen the paths aswell since it's parking on both sides atm and the buses would only really need 2 lanes vs 3 atm.

It'd be a bad idea down the rest of Clayton Street though mind, wouldn't want them near The Black Garter.

Stops 17 & 18 on Newgate Street have hardly any buses use them, could they be utilised for a few services.

The problem is that there's very little political will to have another bus station in Newcastle and arguably the operators don't want one either.

Land is scarce and owned by major developers or in terms of the council land - a potential cash cow for sale via a developer

(20 Mar 2022, 8:19 pm)Adrian wrote We'll see in time, but I can't see the Planning Inspectorate ruling in bus operators favour here.

The argument that a move away from Blackett Street would be to the detriment of elderly and disabled people is pretty baseless. Waiting facilities on Blackett Street are pretty poor and has become dangerous for pedestrians due to over-bussing. 

Arguably a bus station provides better waiting facilities for everyone, especially the elderly and disabled. It also takes customers straight into Eldon Square, avoiding the elements. If Blackett Street services were diverted into Eldon Square, then the only shopping area that would be slightly further away is the Grainger Market, but a Market Street/Newgate Street loop would actually improve access.

With Blackett Street having been temporarily closed for various events over the last couple of years Stagecoach will know the reduction in passenger numbers is when its closed - so I think no. 1 concern for Stagecoach is fewer passengers and hence less revenue.

The bus loop is longer (time and mileage) than using Blackett Street so Stagecoach will need more buses to keep the same frequencies - no. 2 concern costs increased.

Many of the streets on the loop are already heavily used by buses and buses stopping - more buses will potentially create bus congestion which will only delay buses and result in fewer passengers.

(22 Mar 2022, 4:30 pm)busmanT wrote With Blackett Street having been temporarily closed for various events over the last couple of years Stagecoach will know the reduction in passenger numbers is when its closed - so I think no. 1 concern for Stagecoach is fewer passengers and hence less revenue.

The bus loop is longer (time and mileage) than using Blackett Street so Stagecoach will need more buses to keep the same frequencies - no. 2 concern costs increased.

Many of the streets on the loop are already heavily used by buses and buses stopping - more buses will potentially create bus congestion which will only delay buses and result in fewer passengers.

I think the no 2 concern realistically is at the heart of the Stagecoach objections.  They are perfectly happy using Market Street and Grainger Street for the 1/10/11/22/30/31/38 - none of which touch Blackett Street.  It's not as if the folks using those services are more likely to want to head to Bigg Market or Central Station than those on the 12/39/40/62/63 - it's just that it's operationally convenient for those services to run those routes through the city.  To claim it's to improve access is nonsense as the vast majority of passengers will have one service to choose from and get dumped wherever it happens to operate.

(22 Mar 2022, 9:29 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I think the no 2 concern realistically is at the heart of the Stagecoach objections.  They are perfectly happy using Market Street and Grainger Street for the 1/10/11/22/30/31/38 - none of which touch Blackett Street.  It's not as if the folks using those services are more likely to want to head to Bigg Market or Central Station than those on the 12/39/40/62/63 - it's just that it's operationally convenient for those services to run those routes through the city.  To claim it's to improve access is nonsense as the vast majority of passengers will have one service to choose from and get dumped wherever it happens to operate.

In fairness most those services serve Pilgrim Street outside the Odeon which is as close to the centre than Blackett Street is which is also being removed. I don't really understand the point in closing the loop around there, it doesn't really impact people imo and would be handy having extra stops. Some of the Market Street West services for example could be moved to the ones outside Five Guys which is a much more pleasant waiting experience.

(22 Mar 2022, 9:29 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I think the no 2 concern realistically is at the heart of the Stagecoach objections.  They are perfectly happy using Market Street and Grainger Street for the 1/10/11/22/30/31/38 - none of which touch Blackett Street.  It's not as if the folks using those services are more likely to want to head to Bigg Market or Central Station than those on the 12/39/40/62/63 - it's just that it's operationally convenient for those services to run those routes through the city.  To claim it's to improve access is nonsense as the vast majority of passengers will have one service to choose from and get dumped wherever it happens to operate.

Apart from the 22 the other services main City Centre stop is in Pilgrim Street, which is also being closed. The alternative of Market Street East doesn't seem appealing to passengers, especially as it's now a Go North East "bus stand".

Putting more buses up and down Newgate Street past The Gate will cause delays not just to any new services using that route but also to existing services.

Re previously mentioned upgraded traffic signals:

even as a car driver i've always wondered why buses dont have some kind of way of communicating with the traffic lights to give them priority>

Thinking back im sure the buses leaving the old haymarket used to get this as when buses pulled up to the light they always seemed to turn green instantly and when no buses were there they stayed red allowing traffic to flow on Percy street? I though there was a sensor in the ground that change the lights to green when the bus rolled over it.

Just recently, I've been thinking of the situation in Newcastle and how the current set up doesn't lend itself to cross-city centre connections (for terminating services), without changing buses or potentially incurring additional costs.
Newcastle isn't the biggest city in the world, but for those getting off a service at Haymarket or Eldon Square, it can be a pain if you're needing to be on the other side of the town, at say Central Station or the College.
To get from either from Haymarket or Eldon Square, means walking, transferring bus or getting the metro for a few stops. Maybe even getting off at Gateshead for northbound services.
None are very practical if you're lugging around stuff ahead of a trip on an Intercity type of service, or are taking in to account any physical limitations or inclement weather.

Will the Blackett St closure lend itself to services looping around the town and essentially opening up new, improved direct connections? 
Short-term, would it be feasible for a terminating service such as the 21, to allow passengers from Low Fell to stay on board at Eldon Square and get off at the Castle Keep? 

Prior to the High Level being changed to southbound only, it was possible to choose a service from South of the river and get pretty close to Central and that part of the town. Clearly, that's not the case now.

(11 May 2022, 8:08 am)Andreos1 wrote Just recently, I've been thinking of the situation in Newcastle and how the current set up doesn't lend itself to cross-city centre connections (for terminating services), without changing buses or potentially incurring additional costs.
Newcastle isn't the biggest city in the world, but for those getting off a service at Haymarket or Eldon Square, it can be a pain if you're needing to be on the other side of the town, at say Central Station or the College.
To get from either from Haymarket or Eldon Square, means walking, transferring bus or getting the metro for a few stops. Maybe even getting off at Gateshead for northbound services.
None are very practical if you're lugging around stuff ahead of a trip on an Intercity type of service, or are taking in to account any physical limitations or inclement weather.

Will the Blackett St closure lend itself to services looping around the town and essentially opening up new, improved direct connections? 
Short-term, would it be feasible for a terminating service such as the 21, to allow passengers from Low Fell to stay on board at Eldon Square and get off at the Castle Keep? 

Prior to the High Level being changed to southbound only, it was possible to choose a service from South of the river and get pretty close to Central and that part of the town. Clearly, that's not the case now.

Ive jumped on the 56 at market street and people have been on the bus and got off at the grainger market and the castle keep so i dont see why other services cant do what you suggest.

Where are Stagecoach going to take their services when Blacklett Street shuts, because its only going to add to Congestion are they going to end up Granger Street, market Street then New Bridge Street and stopping in between as that is just going to add to Congestion and the queues which are already long enough.