(28 Aug 2022, 3:12 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Not sure that is the case for the majority of the population.  Many, many workplaces still close on bank holidays.  As do a lot of the places people may need to attend e.g. non-urgent health services.  Apart from blue light services etc, retail is probably the main area that is open and even then in the main does so for much reduced hours (meaning among other things fewer staff journeys as less shifts to cover).  I suspect for a lot of people their travel needs are different with more focus on leisure trips rather than 'having to be' somewhere whether that is a workplace, meetings or an appointment.

I agree. The vast majority of Mon-Fri business operations don't operate on a bank holiday, and they tend to run on a skeleton staffing, if at all.  

(28 Aug 2022, 4:40 pm)DeltaMan wrote If a company has an enhanced service but they can't get enough volunteers (most drivers will want a day off too, no matter how much dosh you throw at them), then what? Are we comfortable forcing some drivers to work when they don't want to?

If the service needs to be provided, then they shouldn't be relying on volunteers. It should be a normal working day, with the bank holiday rolled up into leave entitlement, like a lot of other industries do. 

Blue light services are often cited as the example of those that work around the clock, but really the list is far greater than that; power generation, water, telecoms, broadcast, IT & network engineers, retail & hospitality, and even the security industry. They all likely want the day/night off, but you can't have a complete shutdown of the country every bank holiday or weekend.

It's not about forcing anyone to do anything, but as a service provider, you need to meet the needs of those who want to use the service.

(28 Aug 2022, 6:12 pm)Adrian wrote I agree. The vast majority of Mon-Fri business operations don't operate on a bank holiday, and they tend to run on a skeleton staffing, if at all.  


If the service needs to be provided, then they shouldn't be relying on volunteers. It should be a normal working day, with the bank holiday rolled up into leave entitlement, like a lot of other industries do. 

Blue light services are often cited as the example of those that work around the clock, but really the list is far greater than that; power generation, water, telecoms, broadcast, IT & network engineers, retail & hospitality, and even the security industry. They all likely want the day/night off, but you can't have a complete shutdown of the country every bank holiday or weekend.

It's not about forcing anyone to do anything, but as a service provider, you need to meet the needs of those who want to use the service.

So, put the Bank Holiday in the working week but not mandate drivers to work them? Forward allocators will love you!

(28 Aug 2022, 6:12 pm)Adrian wrote I agree. The vast majority of Mon-Fri business operations don't operate on a bank holiday, and they tend to run on a skeleton staffing, if at all.  


If the service needs to be provided, then they shouldn't be relying on volunteers. It should be a normal working day, with the bank holiday rolled up into leave entitlement, like a lot of other industries do. 

Blue light services are often cited as the example of those that work around the clock, but really the list is far greater than that; power generation, water, telecoms, broadcast, IT & network engineers, retail & hospitality, and even the security industry. They all likely want the day/night off, but you can't have a complete shutdown of the country every bank holiday or weekend.

It's not about forcing anyone to do anything, but as a service provider, you need to meet the needs of those who want to use the service.

I'm sure getting that past a TU, without other significant compromises from operators, will be a breeze. 

I fully support BH services being better than what they currently are, but realistically it's going to be quite difficult - even just thinking about agreements for BH working.

What we need are bank holidays and the Sunday Trading Act scrapped.

#equalityforalldays

I take it that some people want a full bus service on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Years Day and have drivers work there days off and have no holiday entitlement as some people want a full service [emoji2357], send an email to boris and he probably make it into law so drivers can’t go on holiday with there family as passengers wants to be somewhere, bank holidays are bank holidays are there for a reason


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(28 Aug 2022, 4:40 pm)DeltaMan wrote If a company has an enhanced service but they can't get enough volunteers (most drivers will want a day off too, no matter how much dosh you throw at them), then what? Are we comfortable forcing some drivers to work when they don't want to?

Ha! Imagine thinking bus drivers are real people with real lives and real emotions and feelings.

(28 Aug 2022, 7:39 pm)cbma06 wrote I take it that some people want a full bus service on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Years Day and have drivers work there days off and have no holiday entitlement as some people want a full service [emoji2357], send an email to boris and he probably make it into law so drivers can’t go on holiday with there family as passengers wants to be somewhere, bank holidays are bank holidays are there for a reason


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Christmas Day I'd be fine with a skeleton service, a few journeys on each route a day would do, New Years day I could tolerate a Sunday service.

But Boxing Day should definitely have a full service IMO.

(28 Aug 2022, 7:41 pm)F114TML wrote Ha! Imagine thinking bus drivers are real people with real lives and real emotions and feelings.

As I've said before, as a passenger it's not my job to care about the drivers feelings, it's the company's job to make them happy.
I just want to get from A to B

(28 Aug 2022, 6:50 pm)DeltaMan wrote So, put the Bank Holiday in the working week but not mandate drivers to work them? Forward allocators will love you!

How much extra resource do you think enhancing a Sunday timetable for a bank holiday would require? Every time it's mentioned on here, you'd think the suggestion was to run every service to a normal weekday or Saturday timetable! 

Demand has changed, but not that much. I can't see Saturday timetables for Bank Holidays being needed network-wide for the foreseeable future, but there needs to be an enhancement to Sunday timetables to reflect all the examples already given in this thread. Sunday timetables have been butchered recently, so the problem has only become worse.

Maybe you ought to ask yourself whether operators can afford to keep staring gift horse in the mouth? In case you hadn't noticed, Buses in England are on their knees and begging for money to survive. The more that they are car-friendly, the less chance we've ever got of getting out of this spiral of decline.

(28 Aug 2022, 6:57 pm)mb134 wrote I'm sure getting that past a TU, without other significant compromises from operators, will be a breeze. 

I fully support BH services being better than what they currently are, but realistically it's going to be quite difficult - even just thinking about agreements for BH working.

There are always workable options to achieve something, and it doesn't have to become an industrial relations disaster in the process. Where I've seen this change happen elsewhere, it's usually been on the basis of guarantees around the number of BHs you can be asked to work, not being rostered the whole weekend or an agreed enhanced rate for the shift.

Just because something was written decades ago with the right intentions, it doesn't mean it's workable in the current day. Otherwise we'd still be running every bus in England with a conductor.

I started to touch upon this above, but what would an enhanced bank holiday timetable look like anyway? I personally don't think it'd be much different to a Sunday timetable, other on the core routes of the network and ensuring that some of the early morning services run to support people getting to work. Stagecoach only (sensibly) enhance the E1, E2 & E6 to almost a Saturday timetable, so the additional resource requirement isn't going to be significant for them to cover. GNE, off the top of my head, would likely only be the X1, 21/X21 and the Coast Road stuff. Again, not really surging the resource demand, in the grand scheme of things.

(28 Aug 2022, 7:39 pm)cbma06 wrote I take it that some people want a full bus service on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Years Day and have drivers work there days off and have no holiday entitlement as some people want a full service [emoji2357], send an email to boris and he probably make it into law so drivers can’t go on holiday with there family as passengers wants to be somewhere, bank holidays are bank holidays are there for a reason

As I've said above, every time this is brought up, everyone goes straight to the extreme of interpreting it as a demand for Mon-Fri (or Sat) timetables on a bank holiday. I can never tell whether it's a deliberate ignorance of the debate of faux outrage, but hey ho.

(28 Aug 2022, 7:41 pm)F114TML wrote Ha! Imagine thinking bus drivers are real people with real lives and real emotions and feelings.

I mean, yeah, I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise, but it if makes you feel better...

What do you think people should do on a bank holiday, if everything closes, because no one ever has to work one? Nothing open, no pubs/bars/restaurants, no sporting events, no TV, no Internet, no electric or gas. Sounds like a fun day.

(28 Aug 2022, 8:09 pm)Adrian wrote As I've said above, every time this is brought up, everyone goes straight to the extreme of interpreting it as a demand for Mon-Fri (or Sat) timetables on a bank holiday. I can never tell whether it's a deliberate ignorance of the debate of faux outrage, but hey ho.


I mean, yeah, I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise, but it if makes you feel better...

What do you think people should do on a bank holiday, if everything closes, because no one ever has to work one? Nothing open, no pubs/bars/restaurants, no sporting events, no TV, no Internet, no electric or gas. Sounds like a fun day.

People also act as if everyone has to work every bank holiday if they start running a proper service, when in reality that would never be the case.

That's like saying because Tesco is open 24 hours, staff have to work 24 hours a day.

(28 Aug 2022, 8:17 pm)streetdeckfan wrote People also act as if everyone has to work every bank holiday if they start running a proper service, when in reality that would never be the case.

That's like saying because Tesco is open 24 hours, staff have to work 24 hours a day.

Maybe their staff don't have real lives, emotions or feelings though.

(28 Aug 2022, 8:21 pm)Adrian wrote Maybe their staff don't have real lives, emotions or feelings though.

Judging by the people I've interacted with in Tesco, that sounds about right!

(28 Aug 2022, 8:09 pm)Adrian wrote What do you think people should do on a bank holiday, if everything closes, because no one ever has to work one? Nothing open, no pubs/bars/restaurants, no sporting events, no TV, no Internet, no electric or gas. Sounds like a fun day.

I'm not suggesting anything close to that, but you keep believing I am.

What I'm saying is, bus drivers probably want to take bank holidays off, and would probably be pretty annoyed when they're told to work one; enhanced pay and extra holiday allowance in lieu sweetens the deal but there'll be a point the company won't be willing to give such extras. Demands for extra services will mean extra drivers on the road - drivers that may not be willing to work BHs. Yes you sign up to the job in the knowledge it'll involve some bank holiday work - but every bank holiday?

TV already run on reduced workforce on weekends and BHs (ever noticed the local news is very rarely more than about 10-15 minutes once per day on weekends? I'm sure all those extra journalists and technicians would love working weekends and bank holidays to put together 3 long news bulletins). Most shops also run reduced opening hours.

Mybe we should ha a purge on bank holidays S I know a lot of coppers who would like not th
O have to.work bank holidays

(28 Aug 2022, 8:39 pm)F114TML wrote I'm not suggesting anything close to that, but you keep believing I am.

What I'm saying is, bus drivers probably want to take bank holidays off, and would probably be pretty annoyed when they're told to work one; enhanced pay and extra holiday allowance in lieu sweetens the deal but there'll be a point the company won't be willing to give such extras. Demands for extra services will mean extra drivers on the road - drivers that may not be willing to work BHs. Yes you sign up to the job in the knowledge it'll involve some bank holiday work - but every bank holiday?

TV already run on reduced workforce on weekends and BHs (ever noticed the local news is very rarely more than about 10-15 minutes once per day on weekends? I'm sure all those extra journalists and technicians would love working weekends and bank holidays to put together 3 long news bulletins). Most shops also run reduced opening hours.

No, but you seem to be expecting some industries to do (and put up with) what you feel shouldn't apply to others...

But again, 'every bank holiday' is mentioned. Why would it ever need to be every bank holiday, when there's never likely to be a full timetable demand for the foreseeable future? How many are expected to work every Sunday?

TV do run on a reduced workforce, yes, but it's not a zero workforce. You might get shorter news bulletins, but news rooms generally don't stop, nor do the masses of roles involved the broadcast or technical side of TV production.

When I worked at Arriva, bank holidays were voluntary (it was normally the same drivers each time who volunteered and got picked). You get an enhanced rate of pay plus a lieu day to take. Unsure if its the same now.

Now at GNE you may or may not be on the rota to work. It's not voluntary either. You get a slight enhancement and also a lieu day (which are just about impossible to take but if you aquire any they a lumped onto the end of your winter holidays which are also company allocated). The only time it's purely voluntary for normal services in boxing day when pay is significantly higher plus you get a lieu day.

Buses on bank holidays tend to be quite busy and the traffic is normally busy too. However with Sunday timetables come Sunday running times (vastly reduced from weekday timings). I feel an enhanced timetable would be beneficial but what routes would you pick? Also if passengers use more than one operator/mode of transport and only one has and enhanced timetable, you still have the issue of passengers not being able to complete their desired journey. Therefore for it to be appealing to the public, it would have to be an all operators and all modes enhancement.

(28 Aug 2022, 8:57 pm)Adrian wrote But again, 'every bank holiday' is mentioned. Why would it ever need to be every bank holiday, when there's never likely to be a full timetable demand for the foreseeable future? How many are expected to work every Sunday?

Just applying some basic logic here.

More journeys = more drivers. Those who already work a couple BHs would likely need to work more BHs, as well as potentially bringing in drivers who never work BHs. I'm not suggesting they introduce a full weekday timetable like you seem to think I am.

(28 Aug 2022, 9:11 pm)F114TML wrote Just applying some basic logic here.

More journeys = more drivers. Those who already work a couple BHs would likely need to work more BHs, as well as potentially bringing in drivers who never work BHs. I'm not suggesting they introduce a full weekday timetable like you seem to think I am.

I feel like only certain services should have them including but not limited too

X45/47/20/65/61/4. 

The 65 especially as Durham is very busy on a bank hoilday and it is every 2 hours.

What happens with routed that are contracted out on Sundays?
Does GNE run to the Sunday timetable or do they just not run it?
Or, is it a part of the contract to run it?

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You can cover Sundays and Bank Holidays without making drivers work 7 day weeks, just like other industries with round the clock service.

And while it's not necessarily the case in this part of the country, there are many people in this country who do not celebrate Christmas and would be happy to work, that day. One of our local convenience stores, run by people who don't celebrate Christmas, makes a small fortune, that day.

Though, currently, we can't staff the hours we do need (collectively, not just bus drivers) so no chance of making big changes to operating patterns.

(28 Aug 2022, 8:44 pm)Rob44 wrote Mybe we should ha a purge on bank holidays S I know a lot of coppers who would like not th
O have to.work bank holidays

Dr Dolittle to reception please.

I get the impression very much like the railways that those who work in the industry and post on here feel the service should be run for their benefit and social lives and not passengers because…it’s always been done like that.

If they ever left this region and looked at public transport provision elsewhere in the UK (including and whisper this…Christmas and New Year’s Day) then their tiny provincial minds would be blown

Don’t forget that bus companies don’t have any obligations or duty to run a bus service on a bank holiday (example: run a bus on the x21 from bishop Auckland to Newcastle at 7am on bank holiday morning). This is what happens when you privatise the bus companies from 86, and it came down to the local authorities to cough up trying to cover bus services which don’t seemed fit for profit for bus companies businesses


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(28 Aug 2022, 9:31 pm)streetdeckfan wrote What happens with routed that are contracted out on Sundays?
Does GNE run to the Sunday timetable or do they just not run it?
Or, is it a part of the contract to run it?

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Yes they still run to a Sunday timetable. The AD122 and the 687 Hexham to Newbrough are running to their Sunday timetable today.

(28 Aug 2022, 1:34 pm)F114TML wrote I would presume the issue lies with the drivers actually. Stagecoach offer extra benefits to drivers who work bank holidays (extra day added to holiday allowance and higher pay for that day), presumably GNE are the same. Ergo, passenger numbers need to be higher on Sundays and bank holidays. Would be interesting to see someone run a service with a normal timetable on a sunday/bank holiday. I'm doubtful it'd last long though unless it was something like the 20 or 21.

We get higher pay for working bank holidays at Stagecoach   Wish someone would tell my boss. I get the leiu day but that's it.

(29 Aug 2022, 9:18 am)tcts24 wrote We get higher pay for working bank holidays at Stagecoach   Wish someone would tell my boss. I get the leiu day but that's it.

Hm, maybe I misremembered what they said then or got mixed up.

(28 Aug 2022, 10:32 pm)Ambassador wrote I get the impression very much like the railways that those who work in the industry and post on here feel the service should be run for their benefit and social lives and not passengers because…it’s always been done like that.

If they ever left this region and looked at public transport provision elsewhere in the UK (including and whisper this…Christmas and New Year’s Day) then their tiny provincial minds would be blown

I'm not against expanding bank holiday services I'm just questioning where the drivers are coming from without forcing people to work on days they don't want to, especially if GNE can't recruit enough drivers to run a normal timetable.

(28 Aug 2022, 8:17 pm)streetdeckfan wrote That's like saying because Tesco is open 24 hours, staff have to work 24 hours a day.

Tesco sacked all of their overnight staff earlier this year, so if they are open 24 hours* then the staff must work 24 hour shifts...! 



*Tesco axed 24 hours in March 2020, with the exception of Gateshead that lasted until earlier this year.

(28 Aug 2022, 9:37 pm)R852 PRG wrote Dr Dolittle to reception please.

which one though...
Harrison
Holt
Murphy


Or  Downey jnr

(28 Aug 2022, 7:39 pm)cbma06 wrote I take it that some people want a full bus service on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Years Day and have drivers work there days off and have no holiday entitlement as some people want a full service [emoji2357], send an email to boris and he probably make it into law so drivers can’t go on holiday with there family as passengers wants to be somewhere, bank holidays are bank holidays are there for a reason


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I’m sorry this may be controversial but this is where certain workers get things wrong in my opinion. Unions fighting for better pay and conditions yes I’m all for that and I do happen to think bus drivers deserve more than what is seemingly the average hourly rate looking at the information out there. But if you accept a job as a bus driver in my opinion you sign up to out of hours working, complaining you had to do a late shift, a Saturday shift or bank holiday is like someone working a bar job complaining they finished late or an paramedic not liking shift work. Bars tend to attract more people in the evening just as paramedics and ambulance are need 24/7 (including Christmas Day believe it or not) and to me it’s the same way buses operate 7 days a week. There’s need a whole mindset change on the issue. Where is the outcry about the waitress and chef serving Christmas Day lunch at a restaurant, or the checkout operator working a 12 hour shift on bank holidays, including Boxing Day.

It’s a complete sense of entitlement with some people, where they want the job to change for them, and that’s shouldn’t always be the case. If a load of bus drivers doesn’t want to do anything but a Monday-Friday 9 to 5, what’s the a solution? Cancel bus post 5pm Friday until Monday morning? It’s crazy. I have a friend a few years got a call centre job at Doxford in Sunderland, shifts were 8 hours long but could be Monday to Sunday 7am to 11pm. He hated it, he was in his early 20s, enjoyed going out at weekend, played football for a Sunday pub team etc. the job interfered with his social life too much, he didn’t demand the job changed for him. He quit. And got a job elsewhere, now does a more suited to him office based 9 to 5 Monday to Friday. He didn’t expect the company to change just for him.

Now I appreciate in the current driver shortage, losing any more drivers may not the way to go but this isn’t a new problem. There’s been a lack of decent evening and weekend services for years and mindset on this should have changed a few years back. Demand has increased in recent years for more ‘off peak’ services, I liken it to supermarkets, twenty years ago a checkout operator job at Asda may have only been shifts between 8am and 8pm at most. But now most are 24 hours or at least 6am til 12am, the business model changed and the staff shifts presumably had too also. No doubt some people left but any new starters would know the requirements and shift patterns in advance, you can’t then complain when the store is still open past 10pm or at weekends!

I appreciate this is a bus forum with many current and force employees from various companies who obviously have a vested interest, but I’ve done weekend working myself, which has included Bank Holidays, Easter, Boxing Day, New Years Day etc. and I don’t see anyone outraged for me…