(10 Jan 2023, 7:32 am)Rapidsnap wrote A lot of roadside charging facilities for buses only top up the battery rather than fully recharge it. At least that how it works at Harrogate, the buses come in to the bus station, goes on the required stand and sits for 5 mins or so taken on juice from the charger.

It's the most efficient way to do it.

If you're doing a long trip in an EV, it's quicker to do several 20-50% charges than it is to do one 10-100% charge (numbers are made up, but you get the idea)

A general rule of thumb is it takes the same amount of time to charge from 10-80% as it does to get from 80-100%, this is because charging speeds reduce drastically as the battery gets full.
It's the same with phones as well.

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(09 Jan 2023, 11:18 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I thought it was something like 7 for mini buses, 10 for single deckers, and 15 for double deckers? Could be wrong though

Obviously they'll last much longer than that, but they use standard figures like that to calculate the depreciation and other financial stuffs

12 - Minibus
15 - Everything else

I believe is what they do, hence most the 61 plate Solo's are gone now.

Also the answer the charging issue is Hydrogen which will be the future for buses and HGV's anyway.

(10 Jan 2023, 3:28 pm)Storx wrote 12 - Minibus
15 - Everything else

I believe is what they do, hence most the 61 plate Solo's are gone now.

Also the answer the charging issue is Hydrogen which will be the future for buses and HGV's anyway.

The issue with Hydrogen is the generation of it. It takes an awful lot of electricity to generate the hydrogen, so unless you're using renewables to generate it, then it's not really that much better than diesel!

I might just be making these numbers up, but I remember reading that a hydrogen powered vehicle is around 50% efficient, compared to around 70-80% efficient of a battery electric vehicle.

Obviously hydrogen has a much higher energy density, a few orders of magnitude I believe, but there's a lot of energy wasted producing the hydrogen in the first place. If the electricity is produced by hydro, solar, or wind, then that doesn't really matter, but if they're burning coal or gas then it does!

Having said all that, I 100% agree that for anything other than 'local' routes, Hydrogen is the better option as the longer range alone can make the transition feasible.

(10 Jan 2023, 3:58 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The issue with Hydrogen is the generation of it. It takes an awful lot of electricity to generate the hydrogen, so unless you're using renewables to generate it, then it's not really that much better than diesel!

I might just be making these numbers up, but I remember reading that a hydrogen powered vehicle is around 50% efficient, compared to around 70-80% efficient of a battery electric vehicle.

Obviously hydrogen has a much higher energy density, a few orders of magnitude I believe, but there's a lot of energy wasted producing the hydrogen in the first place. If the electricity is produced by hydro, solar, or wind, then that doesn't really matter, but if they're burning coal or gas then it does!

Having said all that, I 100% agree that for anything other than 'local' routes, Hydrogen is the better option as the longer range alone can make the transition feasible.

Aye your right about the generation but I'm sure they'll eventually find a way around that. Not sure the bus companies care too much about the efficiency etc it'll be more about price and well actually being usable especially when it comes to HGV's as it just won't work electric charging ever as they don't have the time to just park up every 200KM or so.

But then again like you said we can't just connect every single car and bus to the grid either otherwise we'd have black outs. So whatever way we go for we need to change things and considering we have the cost of living crisis literally because of lack of gas which we use to power the grid then it's a major problem we need to sort regardless. No doubt by nuclear which won't go down with the environmentalists.

(10 Jan 2023, 4:29 pm)Storx wrote Aye your right about the generation but I'm sure they'll eventually find a way around that. Not sure the bus companies care too much about the efficiency etc it'll be more about price and well actually being usable especially when it comes to HGV's as it just won't work electric charging ever as they don't have the time to just park up every 200KM or so.

But then again like you said we can't just connect every single car and bus to the grid either otherwise we'd have black outs. So whatever way we go for we need to change things and considering we have the cost of living crisis literally because of lack of gas which we use to power the grid then it's a major problem we need to sort regardless. No doubt by nuclear which won't go down with the environmentalists.

Efficiency = cost though.

One way I can see hydrogen 'beating' battery in buses is in the cost of the vehicle.
The biggest cost of a BEV is in the name, the battery!

To scale up the range of a BEV, you scale up the battery, which requires scaling up every part of it.

To scale up the range of a HEV, you just need to scale up the site of the tank, the expensive part (the fuel cell) stays the same.

Now, a hydrogen fuel cell isn't exactly cheap, but when the costs come down, I could envisage them dropping at a much higher rate than batteries will continue to.

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(10 Jan 2023, 5:50 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Efficiency = cost though.

One way I can see hydrogen 'beating' battery in buses is in the cost of the vehicle.
The biggest cost of a BEV is in the name, the battery!

To scale up the range of a BEV, you scale up the battery, which requires scaling up every part of it.

To scale up the range of a HEV, you just need to scale up the site of the tank, the expensive part (the fuel cell) stays the same.

Now, a hydrogen fuel cell isn't exactly cheap, but when the costs come down, I could envisage them dropping at a much higher rate than batteries will continue to.

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Aye that's true but you have to think if they're charging buses for 10 minutes in a bus station every 4 runs lets say that's efficiency going out the window aswell as that's a bus off the road. Obviously I know there's the argument for layover anyway but if it comes in late like some buses do pretty much every run then that could be an interesting debate.

What you mean we can't go I'm sitting on the f**king bus I could see be a popular complaint.

Guess it all depends on the price of Hydrogen vs Pure Electric aswell long term aswell. Lot's of things but I genuinely do think Hydrogen will be the future, especially since it's just easier without having to charge them etc. Not to mention batteries degrade, be interesting to see if they reduce in range over time which will be a very expensive upgrade potentially mid life (or an early withdrawal).

(10 Jan 2023, 6:14 pm)Storx wrote Aye that's true but you have to think if they're charging buses for 10 minutes in a bus station every 4 runs lets say that's efficiency going out the window aswell as that's a bus off the road. Obviously I know there's the argument for layover anyway but if it comes in late like some buses do pretty much every run then that could be an interesting debate.

What you mean we can't go I'm sitting on the f**king bus I could see be a popular complaint.

Guess it all depends on the price of Hydrogen vs Pure Electric aswell long term aswell. Lot's of things but I genuinely do think Hydrogen will be the future, especially since it's just easier without having to charge them etc. Not to mention batteries degrade, be interesting to see if they reduce in range over time which will be a very expensive upgrade potentially mid life (or an early withdrawal).

The amount of degradation depends on how much overprovisioning the manufacturer decides to incorporate.

For example, the battery pack might be 450kWh, but only 400kWh is available to be used. That means the battery can degrade 10% without having any impact on the range.

The downside though is the range is reduced compared to if they just used the full capacity!

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(10 Jan 2023, 6:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The amount of degradation depends on how much overprovisioning the manufacturer decides to incorporate.

For example, the battery pack might be 450kWh, but only 400kWh is available to be used. That means the battery can degrade 10% without having any impact on the range.

The downside though is the range is reduced compared to if they just used the full capacity!

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Even then though using any rechargeable tech I have, in particular phones. They degrade an awful lot more than that. After 5 - 6 years you'd be lucky to get half a day and that's not using it all the time either. Obviously they'll have optimum charging etc but I'd be surprised if they only lose 10% over 10 years or it'll actually be much more.

I'm not aware of any advancements in tech that has improved the issue and I can't imagine a replacement battery coming along very cheap either - in fact I'd imagine it being borderline uneconomical. I'd be surprised if they get anywhere near 15 years out of them without major cost.

(11 Jan 2023, 1:37 pm)Storx wrote Even then though using any rechargeable tech I have, in particular phones. They degrade an awful lot more than that. After 5 - 6 years you'd be lucky to get half a day and that's not using it all the time either. Obviously they'll have optimum charging etc but I'd be surprised if they only lose 10% over 10 years or it'll actually be much more.

I'm not aware of any advancements in tech that has improved the issue and I can't imagine a replacement battery coming along very cheap either - in fact I'd imagine it being borderline uneconomical. I'd be surprised if they get anywhere near 15 years out of them without major cost.

A battery in a motor vehicle is not comparable to that of your smart phone, despite them being made of the same material. Automotive batteries used in high end vehicles that are correctly heated and cooled to maintain an optimum operating temperature barely degrade at all.

Older cars with systems like these such as the Tesla Model S and BMW i3 still have well over 90% of their original capability, the original Nissan Leaf, which doesn't have battery conditioning is more comparable to an old iPhone however. I'm not an expert in what is used in buses, but if it's like that of Tesla or BMW, they'll be fine for their usual service life.

Even after, their batteries will hopefully continue to be used as storage in people's homes/businesses, as there's usually plenty of life left in them even after their automotive life is finished.

(11 Jan 2023, 7:55 pm)deanmachine wrote A battery in a motor vehicle is not comparable to that of your smart phone, despite them being made of the same material. Automotive batteries used in high end vehicles that are correctly heated and cooled to maintain an optimum operating temperature barely degrade at all.

Older cars with systems like these such as the Tesla Model S and BMW i3 still have well over 90% of their original capability, the original Nissan Leaf, which doesn't have battery conditioning is more comparable to an old iPhone however. I'm not an expert in what is used in buses, but if it's like that of Tesla or BMW, they'll be fine for their usual service life.

Even after, their batteries will hopefully continue to be used as storage in people's homes/businesses, as there's usually plenty of life left in them even after their automotive life is finished.

The Yutongs actually use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries rather than Lithium-ion batteries used in most EVs and smartphones.

I can't be arsed to google this, so I might be making this up, but I believe LFP batteries have a lower energy density than Li-ion batteries and don't charge as fast, but have much better longevity and can be charged 0-100% without issue unlike Li-ion.

Tesla have started using LFP batteries in their lower end Model 3s as they're cheaper to produce and don't use as many (if any) rare earth metals

(11 Jan 2023, 7:55 pm)deanmachine wrote A battery in a motor vehicle is not comparable to that of your smart phone, despite them being made of the same material. Automotive batteries used in high end vehicles that are correctly heated and cooled to maintain an optimum operating temperature barely degrade at all.

Older cars with systems like these such as the Tesla Model S and BMW i3 still have well over 90% of their original capability, the original Nissan Leaf, which doesn't have battery conditioning is more comparable to an old iPhone however. I'm not an expert in what is used in buses, but if it's like that of Tesla or BMW, they'll be fine for their usual service life.

Even after, their batteries will hopefully continue to be used as storage in people's homes/businesses, as there's usually plenty of life left in them even after their automotive life is finished.

Yeah that's fair enough it's not an area I know that much on if I had to be honest so was basing it on the Leaf and earlier EV's which were dreadful to put it simply. Be interesting to see if they perform the same on intensive work as I can't imagine many Tesla's will do the work the same level of work as a service bus, I'm sure they will though tbf with the odd dud.

(10 Jan 2023, 3:28 pm)Storx wrote 12 - Minibus
15 - Everything else

I believe is what they do, hence most the 61 plate Solo's are gone now.

Also the answer the charging issue is Hydrogen which will be the future for buses and HGV's anyway.

From doing a bit of googling Electric Buses have a shell life of 12 Years regardless of whether it's Mini/Midi or Double Deck with a potential Battery Replacement within that period.

I think HEV's are the way forward when it comes to mileage range more so for routes that are long distance like the X21, I do wonder how an Electric Bus would cope with the demands of a route like the X10 which is something that has not been tested.

Main issue Go North East has right now is the large majority of there fleet is 9-12 years old, you could argue it's an aging fleet with some routes such as the 4, 10's, 56, 60 & 309/310/311 not seeing upgrades in New Buses for 10 Years now and have only had a mid-life refurbishment, the remaining 829* and 83** Series Versa's at Riverside/Deptford are now at Shell Life and much like the Solos should be getting earmarked to be replaced, unfortunately for those in Sunderland they are not going to see any new buses in the immediate future fand I can only see cascades, no doubt they'll get the 17plate Streetlites back at some point.

(11 Jan 2023, 10:48 pm)Malarkey wrote From doing a bit of googling Electric Buses have a shell life of 12 Years regardless of whether it's Mini/Midi or Double Deck with a potential Battery Replacement within that period.

I think HEV's are the way forward when it comes to mileage range more so for routes that are long distance like the X21, I do wonder how an Electric Bus would cope with the demands of a route like the X10 which is something that has not been tested.

Perhaps an EV upgrade, be it BEV or HEV, would be ideal for the X10. There's less parts to go wrong!

(11 Jan 2023, 10:48 pm)Malarkey wrote From doing a bit of googling Electric Buses have a shell life of 12 Years regardless of whether it's Mini/Midi or Double Deck with a potential Battery Replacement within that period.

I think HEV's are the way forward when it comes to mileage range more so for routes that are long distance like the X21, I do wonder how an Electric Bus would cope with the demands of a route like the X10 which is something that has not been tested.

Main issue Go North East has right now is the large majority of there fleet is 9-12 years old, you could argue it's an aging fleet with some routes such as the 4, 10's, 56, 60 & 309/310/311 not seeing upgrades in New Buses for 10 Years now and have only had a mid-life refurbishment, the remaining 829* and 83** Series Versa's at Riverside/Deptford are now at Shell Life and much like the Solos should be getting earmarked to be replaced, unfortunately for those in Sunderland they are not going to see any new buses in the immediate future fand I can only see cascades, no doubt they'll get the 17plate Streetlites back at some point.

We need to look beyond the vehicle for a solution. Comparing it to the smartphone generation, we don't rely on the internal battery to last us the day. We rely on infrastructure in place, wherever we are, to top up the battery.

Germany have one of the best examples of infrastructure I've seen for HGVs, in their use of eHighways. Utilising OHL infrastructure and pantographs fitted to vehicles. There's got to be other solutions out there, such as Harrogate and Kilmarnock having charging facilities in bus stations. 

(11 Jan 2023, 11:08 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Perhaps an EV upgrade, be it BEV or HEV, would be ideal for the X10. There's less parts to go wrong!

I personally don't see BEV/HEV being an option, because it's prolonging a reliance on fossil fuels. Instead, they'll have to look at other technologies such as hydrogen powered buses, like the deckers that have been introduced in Aberdeen.