(03 Oct 2023, 7:14 pm)itsadam wrote Really need to strike a deal but I ain't optimistic. The X12 has been ludicrously chocka block, the road works in Durham doesn't do the route any justice.

Same with the 22/23 theyve been on time then as soon as it hits past Dalton Park it got upto 45 mins late

(03 Oct 2023, 2:10 pm)streetdeckfan wrote It would be an absolute shame if they lost the contracts and had to reduce the workforce.

So you're telling me you would be happy for drivers to lose their jobs because of loss of contracts, because the drivers want a decent wage for what they have to put up with.

(03 Oct 2023, 6:19 pm)54APhotography wrote Time the Go Ahead Group ended their employ of Feetham. The man is poison.

MG may have had his faults, but things didn’t get so bad that the drivers went on strike. GNE has regressed a lot more since he came in and aren’t the first operator to go on strike with him there, as GNW did the same a couple of years back.


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(03 Oct 2023, 8:48 pm)TEN 6083 wrote MG may have had his faults, but things didn’t get so bad that the drivers went on strike. GNE has regressed a lot more since he came in and aren’t the first operator to go on strike with him there, as GNW did the same a couple of years back.


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I know MG does get a lot of stick, but one thing you can say he did try with GNE, he tried low fares, increase frequencys tbh apart from a few frequnecy cuts (56/20/53/54/60) really during his tenure GNE had the best timetables. 

He may have left them in 4.5m in debt but maybe his tactics would have worked if it wasn't for COVID. 

Branding we all have an opinion on it but I dont really see the issue with having it on routes which make money, branding that i didnt like was the Sunderland and District if it was all inter-city services around Sunderland with SC aswell it may have worked but it was all on routes which arent the best money making which also was coupled with the aging fleet, there is basically only yhe Berries and the Graphite and Silver interwork now so thats a bit of a waste of time,.

But then the drivers shortage the frequency cuts just make GNE an absolute mess

(03 Oct 2023, 8:48 pm)TEN 6083 wrote MG may have had his faults, but things didn’t get so bad that the drivers went on strike. GNE has regressed a lot more since he came in and aren’t the first operator to go on strike with him there, as GNW did the same a couple of years back.


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Disagree personally. MG caused all this crap. 

The fare reductions was one of the most insane ideas ever, literal suicide as if it didn't increase numbers then they're screwed which basically happened as the cancellations that have been consistent which was caused massively by the Chester depot closure - another short sighted idea. People didn't care mainly about the fare reductions but by god do they care about the increases even known it's roughly the same fare. Bad bad decision.

Not to mention GNE jumped the gun in reducing bus routes. If you want to regrow buses jamming people onto less frequent buses when people are scared to go out is totally counter productive. Both Arriva and Stagecoach held off most frequency reductions and in some areas have recovered much better and some of the reductions resulted in bigger buses ie. 1/2 at Blyth so was no real reduction in seats. 

Feetham inherited a massive mess.

(03 Oct 2023, 9:43 pm)Storx wrote Disagree personally. MG caused all this crap. 

The fare reductions was one of the most insane ideas ever, literal suicide as if it didn't increase numbers then they're screwed which basically happened as the cancellations that have been consistent which was caused massively by the Chester depot closure - another short sighted idea. People didn't care mainly about the fare reductions but by god do they care about the increases even known it's roughly the same fare. Bad bad decision.

Yeah he did some really odd things with fares, not sure who the commercial manager or finance bod was was but they surely should have challenged it? 

Chester depot was a masterclass in nuclear employee relations and the associated routes like the 21 et al have never recovered

(03 Oct 2023, 9:53 pm)Ambassador wrote Yeah he did some really odd things with fares, not sure who the commercial manager or finance bod was was but they surely should have challenged it? 

Chester depot was a masterclass in nuclear employee relations and the associated routes like the 21 et al have never recovered

Yeah totally agreed, absolutely bonker policy. It's just basic GCSE economic stuff that reducing the price is not the way to make more money unless your advertising something new, so maybe an introductory fare for a new route etc to get people on board but by god you need to make sure it's 100%. Like the North Tyne Rockets, all fares for 50p for the first week would have been good use of fares but not for months on end.

I still don't get what the goal was, as if someone wanted to use the bus they would've and if someone is using it purely because of the low fare as soon as you put it back up they were always going to disappear again. In that same time, some of the those low fares passengers could be pricks which could alienate the usual punters or alternatively the buses being busier full of cheap fares again could've alienated a normal passenger especially at the time - covid etc.

Reminds me of some comedy sketch (Bored) on YouTube where the manager gives out free samples of £200 headsets because it works with biscuits in supermarkets sort of stupidity. It might work with a box of Pringles, but never with public transport.

(03 Oct 2023, 8:10 pm)Unber43 wrote So you're telling me you would be happy for drivers to lose their jobs because of loss of contracts, because the drivers want a decent wage for what they have to put up with.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but the drivers were already offered a 'decent wage' and as usual the unions decided to try and push their luck. They've got to make it look like they're doing something otherwise how are they going to rake in their millions?

The fact of the matter is GNE are loss making and do not have the money to pay drivers more. More pay for drivers means they can afford less drivers. There is no magic money tree.

While an extra few percent doesn't sound like much, it's an extra £2m a year they're asking GNE to come up with. Actually that still doesn't sound like a lot, but that's an extra 70 full time drivers GNE could hire even after the 9.5% pay rise they were offered, or more likely 70 full time drivers they need to justify keeping around when they're already haemorrhaging money.

(feel free to check my maths, it's late and I didn't fancy breaking out Excel to work it out properly)

As for MG, I really do think his heart was in the right place, but he was screwed over by the pandemic. Passenger numbers had actually started increasing after he implemented the changes, so obviously something was working, had he become MD a year or two earlier, perhaps GNE would be in a much stronger position now?

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(03 Oct 2023, 11:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote This might be an unpopular opinion, but the drivers were already offered a 'decent wage' and as usual the unions decided to try and push their luck. They've got to make it look like they're doing something otherwise how are they going to rake in their millions?

The fact of the matter is GNE are loss making and do not have the money to pay drivers more. More pay for drivers means they can afford less drivers. There is no magic money tree.

While an extra few percent doesn't sound like much, it's an extra £2m a year they're asking GNE to come up with. Actually that still doesn't sound like a lot, but that's an extra 70 full time drivers GNE could hire even after the 9.5% pay rise they were offered, or more likely 70 full time drivers they need to justify keeping around when they're already haemorrhaging money.

(feel free to check my maths, it's late and I didn't fancy breaking out Excel to work it out properly)

As for MG, I really do think his heart was in the right place, but he was screwed over by the pandemic. Passenger numbers had actually started increasing after he implemented the changes, so obviously something was working, had he become MD a year or two earlier, perhaps GNE would be in a much stronger position now?

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Surprisingly based. I think people are very quick to criticise Martijn Gilbert and highlight him as the source of most of the problems of the present, but I'd argue that Kevin Carr's leadership and the inertia that characterised his custodianship of the business has an overlooked role. A dinosaur when he took over in 2012, and a fossil by the time he retired in 2018.

(03 Oct 2023, 11:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote As for MG, I really do think his heart was in the right place, but he was screwed over by the pandemic. Passenger numbers had actually started increasing after he implemented the changes, so obviously something was working, had he become MD a year or two earlier, perhaps GNE would be in a much stronger position now?

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Passenger numbers are irrelevant though when you slashed the fares in the process. At the end of the day he was there to make a profit.

If I slashed the fares by half using economics then you need the passenger numbers to double on that route and it didn't happen and never was going to. 

At the end of the day it's better to have 15 passengers on the bus all paying an average of £6 than 28 passengers paying an average of £3 especially if 3 of those are unruly little kids pissing everyone off who wouldn't be anywhere near it at the higher price. 

If my only task was to get passenger numbers up I'd just make the buses free, I'd do the job but I'd 100% expect to be sacked at the same time.

(03 Oct 2023, 11:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote This might be an unpopular opinion, but the drivers were already offered a 'decent wage' and as usual the unions decided to try and push their luck. They've got to make it look like they're doing something otherwise how are they going to rake in their millions?

The fact of the matter is GNE are loss making and do not have the money to pay drivers more. More pay for drivers means they can afford less drivers. There is no magic money tree.

While an extra few percent doesn't sound like much, it's an extra £2m a year they're asking GNE to come up with. Actually that still doesn't sound like a lot, but that's an extra 70 full time drivers GNE could hire even after the 9.5% pay rise they were offered, or more likely 70 full time drivers they need to justify keeping around when they're already haemorrhaging money.

(feel free to check my maths, it's late and I didn't fancy breaking out Excel to work it out properly)

As for MG, I really do think his heart was in the right place, but he was screwed over by the pandemic. Passenger numbers had actually started increasing after he implemented the changes, so obviously something was working, had he become MD a year or two earlier, perhaps GNE would be in a much stronger position now?

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I do agree, about GNE losing money, but I dont think its about the pay increase I think its the further retractment of employee beneifts, as I am pretty sure they are removing  paid meal breaks (personally I think they should be paid if you have it over 30 mins), and extending driving tme (personally I think 4.5 hours) is enough but I can see why GNE are not budging on this as this would have some royal screw ups with the X10/24/26 etc. 

Also I agree with your comments about MG.

(04 Oct 2023, 7:01 am)Unber43 wrote I do agree, about GNE losing money, but I dont think its about the pay increase I think its the further retractment of employee beneifts, as I am pretty sure they are removing  paid meal breaks (personally I think they should be paid if you have it over 30 mins), and extending driving tme (personally I think 4.5 hours) is enough but I can see why GNE are not budging on this as this would have some royal screw ups with the X10/24/26 etc. 

Also I agree with your comments about MG.

Unpaid breaks is pretty much standard across most industries now, I don't get my breaks paid. I personally see it as encouragement to actually take your break since nobody wants to work for free, but I appreciate the breaks are mandatory in some roles.

As for the driving hours, as long as it's still within the legal limits, then what's the issue?

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(04 Oct 2023, 7:25 am)streetdeckfan wrote Unpaid breaks is pretty much standard across most industries now, I don't get my breaks paid. I personally see it as encouragement to actually take your break since nobody wants to work for free, but I appreciate the breaks are mandatory in some roles.

As for the driving hours, as long as it's still within the legal limits, then what's the issue?

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Just because its in the legal limit (which it should be) maybe the legal limit is a bit too high. 

But I don't get paid dinner either however it will always be 30 mins for me, whereas drivers it can vary so I don't think its fair that drivers which could have breaks over an hour don't get paid for that as they dont chose which duty they do

The current pay and conditions aren't exactly doing a great job of attracting those 70 drivers, SDF.

(03 Oct 2023, 11:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote This might be an unpopular opinion, but the drivers were already offered a 'decent wage' and as usual the unions decided to try and push their luck. They've got to make it look like they're doing something otherwise how are they going to rake in their millions?

The fact of the matter is GNE are loss making and do not have the money to pay drivers more. More pay for drivers means they can afford less drivers. There is no magic money tree.

While an extra few percent doesn't sound like much, it's an extra £2m a year they're asking GNE to come up with. Actually that still doesn't sound like a lot, but that's an extra 70 full time drivers GNE could hire even after the 9.5% pay rise they were offered, or more likely 70 full time drivers they need to justify keeping around when they're already haemorrhaging money.

(feel free to check my maths, it's late and I didn't fancy breaking out Excel to work it out properly)

As for MG, I really do think his heart was in the right place, but he was screwed over by the pandemic. Passenger numbers had actually started increasing after he implemented the changes, so obviously something was working, had he become MD a year or two earlier, perhaps GNE would be in a much stronger position now?

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In your opinion, they were offered a 'decent wage'. I don't know who you think 'the unions' are, but the Union members rejected that offer by ballot, and thus far, the company have failed to come up with anything likely to meet the demands set out by members. It's literally how it works in any democratic organisation.

I'm not going to question the maths, but if you're arguing that it's an extra £2million a year which equals 70 full time drivers, just remember that there's a single person employed by Go Ahead with a package worth over half of that. You can't cry poverty whilst being obscene at the other end of the tree.

On MG, I think someone's heart being in the right place and them having a sound business mind, are two completely separate things. Even before the pandemic, he wasted a lot of money on vanity projects that were never likely to make a return. This was on top of the same short-termism that has ruined the network over the past 20 years. 

(04 Oct 2023, 5:56 am)Storx wrote Passenger numbers are irrelevant though when you slashed the fares in the process. At the end of the day he was there to make a profit.

If I slashed the fares by half using economics then you need the passenger numbers to double on that route and it didn't happen and never was going to. 

At the end of the day it's better to have 15 passengers on the bus all paying an average of £6 than 28 passengers paying an average of £3 especially if 3 of those are unruly little kids pissing everyone off who wouldn't be anywhere near it at the higher price. 

If my only task was to get passenger numbers up I'd just make the buses free, I'd do the job but I'd 100% expect to be sacked at the same time.

Taking your point about doubling numbers, I still think he had to look at the fares. They were, and still are, vastly overpriced. It doesn't matter what a business does in trying to justify a fare being X, because it's up to a customer to decide whether that X equals value. 

In a way, it's why commercial bus operations are on the most part, on life support. They cannot sustain their business, because they've failed for decades to achieve any decent level of organic growth. Costs are always going to go up; you can't avoid that, but you can improve what is coming in at the other end. 

(04 Oct 2023, 7:25 am)streetdeckfan wrote Unpaid breaks is pretty much standard across most industries now, I don't get my breaks paid. I personally see it as encouragement to actually take your break since nobody wants to work for free, but I appreciate the breaks are mandatory in some roles.

As for the driving hours, as long as it's still within the legal limits, then what's the issue?

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It's a limit, not a target. It's what a business has to do as the bare minimum to remain within the law.

When you struggle to recruit and retain for so long, you really need to start talking to your workforce and look at the conditions you're asking them to work under.

(04 Oct 2023, 7:01 am)Unber43 wrote I do agree, about GNE losing money, but I dont think its about the pay increase I think its the further retractment of employee beneifts, as I am pretty sure they are removing  paid meal breaks (personally I think they should be paid if you have it over 30 mins), and extending driving tme (personally I think 4.5 hours) is enough but I can see why GNE are not budging on this as this would have some royal screw ups with the X10/24/26 etc. 

Also I agree with your comments about MG.

There is no proposal to remove paid meal breaks, and never has been.

The proposal was to extend unpaid meal breaks from 30 minutes to 45 (better matching Arriva and Stagecoach), but this has since been taken off the table by the company.

Currently, any break in excess of 30 minutes is paid. That applies to the majority of GNE’s drivers. Some (a smaller number of legacy drivers) have their entire meal break paid, though their hourly rate is lower (and they are able to go onto a higher rate in exchange for going onto 30 minute unpaid meal breaks whenever they like). This would remain the case in the current offer to Unite.


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695N by gne didn't run under them. Instead it was ran by Henry Cooper Coaches 3515 HX Instead.

Gne cover all school services. Haha yea next joke. Not a good way to say "we will run every school run" to then not. Doesn't look to good to passengers does it

(04 Oct 2023, 9:51 am)Adrian wrote Taking your point about doubling numbers, I still think he had to look at the fares. They were, and still are, vastly overpriced. It doesn't matter what a business does in trying to justify a fare being X, because it's up to a customer to decide whether that X equals value. 

In a way, it's why commercial bus operations are on the most part, on life support. They cannot sustain their business, because they've failed for decades to achieve any decent level of organic growth. Costs are always going to go up; you can't avoid that, but you can improve what is coming in at the other end.

Yeah don't dispute that but the way he done it by slashing it across the board just doesn't make sense when you're making a loss. The fares now are pretty much just back to where they were before the cuts now so it didn't work but it just left a hole in the middle. Some of the fares were just stupid like £1.70 anywhere in North Tyneside and Northumberland. Without government support it's no wonder the 19 died, when it's £1.70 for a fare from Ashington to North Shields which is just unrealistic.

The County Durham fares were just as bad, £2 from Seaham to Durham, Chester Le Street to Bishop Auckland or Durham to Consett, that's not economical either, unless you've got decker loads of people without government support.

Personally, I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a push of tap in and out like Arriva has, of all operators. Personally I think you'd sell it much better to commuters a system of just tap your card in and out, you'll never pay more than £30 a week or £90 a month or whatever the fares are and if you use it less, we'll charge you less. Takes away all the confusion of zones and bollocks.

(04 Oct 2023, 2:23 pm)Busu284 wrote 695N by gne didn't run under them. Instead it was ran by Henry Cooper Coaches 3515 HX Instead.

Gne cover all school services. Haha yea next joke. Not a good way to say "we will run every school run" to then not. Doesn't look to good to passengers does it

I dont think people will care about school services tbh.

As well with the 351/335/359 running they were probably running these as they would get high penalties

(04 Oct 2023, 3:27 pm)Unber43 wrote I dont think people will care about school services tbh.

As well with the 351/335/359 running they were probably running these as they would get high penalties

Oh yea parents ain't gonna care that there kid hasn't come home due to the school bus hasn't turned up

(04 Oct 2023, 3:27 pm)Unber43 wrote I dont think people will care about school services tbh.

As well with the 351/335/359 running they were probably running these as they would get high penalties

Most of the public will not care about school buses. Only parents/schools/kids will care weather a school service is running or not.

tbf most kids would love it if their school buses werent running

(04 Oct 2023, 2:23 pm)Busu284 wrote 695N by gne didn't run under them. Instead it was ran by Henry Cooper Coaches 3515 HX Instead.

Gne cover all school services. Haha yea next joke. Not a good way to say "we will run every school run" to then not. Doesn't look to good to passengers does it

The statement before was "We will do our best to run as many of our school services during the strikes as we can." didn't say all although in later updates, it just suggested contract school services would be all that would run.

Whilst the strike is a nuisance to passengers, at least schools are being covered for the most part although naturally, some can not make the journeys they need to undertake but at least some are being covered by other providers including the tendered services in Hexham which includes travel at school start/finish times.

(04 Oct 2023, 2:23 pm)Busu284 wrote 695N by gne didn't run under them. Instead it was ran by Henry Cooper Coaches 3515 HX Instead.

Gne cover all school services. Haha yea next joke. Not a good way to say "we will run every school run" to then not. Doesn't look to good to passengers does it

After seeing videos on social media of some of the malicious acts being carried out by some of those on picket lines, and the abuse that managers, supervisors, clerical staff and any non-union drivers have received, I am not surprised that coverage is worsening.

To answer your question, no it doesn’t look good to passengers. Nor does it look good that people can’t get to the shops, their doctors appointment, to work, or otherwise, because no local buses are running.

Strikes are designed to be disruptive, and should be a last resort.

This is what Unite wanted to achieve - and this is what they have achieved.

Here’s hoping both sides can return to talks as soon as possible.


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(04 Oct 2023, 4:12 pm)Dan wrote After seeing videos on social media of some of the malicious acts being carried out by some of those on picket lines, and the abuse that managers, supervisors, clerical staff and any non-union drivers have received, I am not surprised that coverage is worsening.

To answer your question, no it doesn’t look good to passengers. Nor does it look good that people can’t get to the shops, their doctors appointment, to work, or otherwise, because no local buses are running.

Strikes are designed to be disruptive, and should be a last resort.

This is what Unite wanted to achieve - and this is what they have achieved.

Here’s hoping both sides can return to talks as soon as possible.


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Any links to those videos?

I'm guessing - imagine GNE drivers shouting 'scab' at buses

(04 Oct 2023, 4:54 pm)F114TML wrote I'm guessing - imagine GNE drivers shouting 'scab' at buses

And they wouldn't be wrong.

(04 Oct 2023, 3:04 pm)Storx wrote Yeah don't dispute that but the way he done it by slashing it across the board just doesn't make sense when you're making a loss. The fares now are pretty much just back to where they were before the cuts now so it didn't work but it just left a hole in the middle. Some of the fares were just stupid like £1.70 anywhere in North Tyneside and Northumberland. Without government support it's no wonder the 19 died, when it's £1.70 for a fare from Ashington to North Shields which is just unrealistic.

The County Durham fares were just as bad, £2 from Seaham to Durham, Chester Le Street to Bishop Auckland or Durham to Consett, that's not economical either, unless you've got decker loads of people without government support.

Personally, I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a push of tap in and out like Arriva has, of all operators. Personally I think you'd sell it much better to commuters a system of just tap your card in and out, you'll never pay more than £30 a week or £90 a month or whatever the fares are and if you use it less, we'll charge you less. Takes away all the confusion of zones and bollocks.

I think the issue boils down to thinking titivations and cheaper fares would be enough to attract customers. 

They seemed convinced it would work and somehow stacked up the business case to get the cheques signed off. 
Despite not actually doing in-depth research with customers or car-users and finding out if it was what was actually needed or wanted. 

I'd argue that if they were used as part of a wider strategy, then they may have had more success. 

As it was, they were basically charging less - for the same old, but with a few new toys added. 
Those new toys didn't create much desire at all and there didn't seem to be any other strategy or plan other than blind optimism.
Hence no success and a financial hole left over, that must be huge. 

I said these things at the time and was told I was wrong. 
I was told tables and lower fares were getting the network ready post-covid.
They certainly did that. Ready for failure.

There's so many studies that have been done on the correlation between lower fares and increase in passengers. It worked for Easyjet and Ryanair - the huge difference being, they adapt their network to suit customer demands. Not operational needs.
Whereas GNE, well... They kept the same old, but did some titivating.

---

(04 Oct 2023, 4:12 pm)Dan wrote After seeing videos on social media of some of the malicious acts being carried out by some of those on picket lines, and the abuse that managers, supervisors, clerical staff and any non-union drivers have received, I am not surprised that coverage is worsening. 

To answer your question, no it doesn’t look good to passengers. Nor does it look good that people can’t get to the shops, their doctors appointment, to work, or otherwise, because no local buses are running.

Strikes are designed to be disruptive, and should be a last resort.

This is what Unite wanted to achieve - and this is what they have achieved.

Here’s hoping both sides can return to talks as soon as possible.


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Wonder what the uplift, time off in lieu or overtime rate is, for those staff getting behind the wheel?

(04 Oct 2023, 5:29 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think the issue boils down to thinking titivations and cheaper fares would be enough to attract customers. 

They seemed convinced it would work and somehow stacked up the business case to get the cheques signed off. 
Despite not actually doing in-depth research with customers or car-users and finding out if it was what was actually needed or wanted. 

I'd argue that if they were used as part of a wider strategy, then they may have had more success. 

As it was, they were basically charging less - for the same old, but with a few new toys added. 
Those new toys didn't create much desire at all and there didn't seem to be any other strategy or plan other than blind optimism.
Hence no success and a financial hole left over, that must be huge. 

I said these things at the time and was told I was wrong. 
I was told tables and lower fares were getting the network ready post-covid.
They certainly did that. Ready for failure.

There's so many studies that have been done on the correlation between lower fares and increase in passengers. It worked for Easyjet and Ryanair - the huge difference being, they adapt their network to suit customer demands. Not operational needs.
Whereas GNE, well... They kept the same old, but did some titivating.

---

Wonder what the uplift, time off in lieu or overtime rate is, for those staff getting behind the wheel?

Honestly, can't disagree to be fair. GoNorthEast has definitely imo dealt with post Covid the worst, it seems managers who like playing with toys in 'good times' don't really know what they're doing when they actually need to manage. Transdev in Yorkshire is in an absolute dire state aswell with Hornby bolting out the backdoor. Ironic that McGills in West Lothian is a complete mess aswell. Heard Wellglade, which is similar, is in a similar mess whereas the basic no gimmicks companies like Stagecoach are generally recovering alright. Like you said, it's almost like people use a bus to well go somewhere.

Mind I wouldn't say Ryanair and Easyjet is a good example as they're not actually that cheap, unless you don't want to take anything on the plane. It's like £20 for a carry on case nowadays I believe EW. Let's not give them ideas though, be charging for a bigger seat and a table if they had their own way. No doubt some on here would throw money at it aswell.

(04 Oct 2023, 4:54 pm)F114TML wrote I'm guessing - imagine GNE drivers shouting 'scab' at buses

Far worse!


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