(17 Oct 2025, 4:20 pm)Adrian wrote I don't think it'll be the last big jump either. I think we'll see more businesses or organisations attracted to City Centre accommodation, and to be honest, we need to encourage that. It's pointless banging on about the high street and retail, it's got to be about repurposing space and introducing new footfall.

And if that happens (and I think it will), the network will work again. as it did in the 80s, when people actually needed to be in the City Centre. Just goes to show that, like clothes, if you resist changing a bus network for 40 years, it'll eventually come back into fashion.

(16 Oct 2025, 3:04 pm)DodgepotMcDougal wrote All Operators/modes are going to need to do something. You can't dump up thousands of people a day in to the transport network without it breaking.

Metro is at capacity without significant investment. I'm not sure where the additional DMU trains are for Northern. The short and medium solution has to be bus. Be that enhanced frequencies, Park and Ride. Express buses or a mix of all three.

Local authorities will have to step up as well - I just hope the "active" travel merchants that riddle these organisations are shot in to the sun with regards this issue. The last thing needed is even further reduced road space for mass people movers (buses) on the approaches to the city. I know three people that are going to be moving in, and they ain't getting on a bike!

Metro capacity will have increased with the new fleet rolled out by then, and also a system wide frequency increase will be possible thanks to the Metro Flow project a few years back.

New trains coming to Northern and the likes of Transport for Wales should free up additional 158s to come to the NE.

If you’ve visited any forward thinking cities such as London, Copenhagen, Amsterdam etc you’ll have seen that reallocating city centre road space to public transport and active travel is much more efficient in terms of volume of people moving, and is better for people’s health and the environment.
However, as others have said some councils here aren’t too willing and are scared to upset drivers, especially on the run up to the elections.

(Yesterday, 7:10 pm)ne14ne1 wrote Metro capacity will have increased with the new fleet rolled out by then, and also a system wide frequency increase will be possible thanks to the Metro Flow project a few years back.

New trains coming to Northern and the likes of Transport for Wales should free up additional 158s to come to the NE.

If you’ve visited any forward thinking cities such as London, Copenhagen, Amsterdam etc you’ll have seen that reallocating city centre road space to public transport and active travel is much more efficient in terms of volume of people moving, and is better for people’s health and the environment.
However, as others have said some councils here aren’t too willing and are scared to upset drivers, especially on the run up to the elections.

I don't even think that's the core of the issue here. The issue is that they can dig, change and reallocate all the road space they want, but they do not have the power (at present) to change the network in such a way that space is utilised. 

We've seen other examples around the region, where bus priority is introduced at great cost, yet the service frequency decreases.

Once there's some cooperation, hopefully we'll see some improvement.

(Yesterday, 8:04 pm)Adrian wrote I don't even think that's the core of the issue here. The issue is that they can dig, change and reallocate all the road space they want, but they do not have the power (at present) to change the network in such a way that space is utilised. 

We've seen other examples around the region, where bus priority is introduced at great cost, yet the service frequency decreases.

Once there's some cooperation, hopefully we'll see some improvement.

The heart of the issue is that councils don't see the direct financial cost of needing more drivers or vehicles to deliver the same or worse level of service due to worsening travel speeds.

Apart from a small number of individuals, they see buses no differently to lorries or delivery companies. Why should buses get special treatment? That is the attitude which riddles the councils.

So the easiest thing for them to do is keep the car users happy, as they are bigger voting block. It's as simple as that.

(11 hours ago)DodgepotMcDougal wrote The heart of the issue is that councils don't see the direct financial cost of needing more drivers or vehicles to deliver the same or worse level of service due to worsening travel speeds.

Apart from a small number of individuals, they see buses no differently to lorries or delivery companies. Why should buses get special treatment? That is the attitude which riddles the councils.

So the easiest thing for them to do is keep the car users happy, as they are bigger voting block. It's as simple as that.

If we are talking NCC then i think the last thisng they do is keep car drivers happy. More bus and cycle routes than ever.  Car parking charged increasing more the inflation. Charging BBH to park in their car parks when it used to be free.

I also dont see any Lorry only lanes or any  Delevery company stops.

The buck stops ( in my view) with the mentality of people. People dont want to move from there car onto a bus.  Im on my own at the minute but when my staff come in 99% of them, i have no doubt, would NEFER change or return to publi transport.

And on a side note a couple of 18 something where I live has just passed there test and are now driving rather than have to use the bus

(7 hours ago)Rob44 wrote If we are talking NCC then i think the last thisng they do is keep car drivers happy. More bus and cycle routes than ever.  Car parking charged increasing more the inflation. Charging BBH to park in their car parks when it used to be free.

I also dont see any Lorry only lanes or any  Delevery company stops.

The buck stops ( in my view) with the mentality of people. People dont want to move from there car onto a bus.  Im on my own at the minute but when my staff come in 99% of them, i have no doubt, would NEFER change or return to publi transport.

And on a side note a couple of 18 something where I live has just passed there test and are now driving rather than have to use the bus

The problem with buses is rail/metro systems (or lack of them) and when they do exist the price is insane and integration doesn't exist. 

It's no surprise the buses in places like the West End do well but once you get to the rural areas they're a nightmare.

People just don't want to travel on buses for 30 minutes plus, me included. 

That's why if you go to decent European network they'll have a little hopper service which is frequent to the nearest rail / metro service and then do the long journey on rail. 

Obviously people will say rail will be a white elephant but you just have to look at how well the Northumberland Line is doing and 2 stations still aren't open and there's no hopper service at all currently.

Even London works like that.

(5 hours ago)Storx wrote The problem with buses is rail/metro systems (or lack of them) and when they do exist the price is insane and integration doesn't exist. 

It's no surprise the buses in places like the West End do well but once you get to the rural areas they're a nightmare.

People just don't want to travel on buses for 30 minutes plus, me included. 

So from a personal experience, I'm wanting to buy a property located within 15 minutes walking distance to a Metro station. Even more so motivated by the fact that on a matchday, I get dropped off at Northumberland Park and use the Metro as opposed to the slog on the Coast Road.

Is better bus & metro integration not what we need? Even if co-existing / working in partnership with commercial services and integrared TOTO bus / metro fares - it could work if carefully planned out with a network of minibuses.

(4 hours ago)L469 YVK wrote So from a personal experience, I'm wanting to buy a property located within 15 minutes walking distance to a Metro station. Even more so motivated by the fact that on a matchday, I get dropped off at Northumberland Park and use the Metro as opposed to the slog on the Coast Road.

Is better bus & metro integration not what we need? Even if co-existing / working in partnership with commercial services and integrared TOTO bus / metro fares - it could work if carefully planned out with a network of minibuses.

To an extent it would work for the places it's near but imo the Metro isn't really in an ideal spot, especially for the South, which is arguably the worst of the transport. 

It already works in South Shields and Sunderland really. 

There's not really anywhere sensible in the Durham direction since there's no rail stops bar a random CLS service and Durham station is on top of a massive hill with no intermodal transport. 

I know some people will say Gateshead but that would be just annoying as it's backwards ie. short hop on the metro and still a long bus journey and Heworth is a detour.

I always think the lack of any plans for a Metro station around Penshaw/Shiney Row due to the route they've chose is a big big lost opportunity as it would've been ideal for down there with the 2, 4, 37, 39, 78 and X1 already serving it. Would've been ideal for the likes of Fencehouses or whatever.

(4 hours ago)Storx wrote To an extent it would work for the places it's near but imo the Metro isn't really in an ideal spot, especially for the South, which is arguably the worst of the transport. 

It already works in South Shields and Sunderland really. 

There's not really anywhere sensible in the Durham direction since there's no rail stops bar a random CLS service and Durham station is on top of a massive hill with no intermodal transport. 

I know some people will say Gateshead but that would be just annoying as it's backwards ie. short hop on the metro and still a long bus journey and Heworth is a detour.

I always think the lack of any plans for a Metro station around Penshaw/Shiney Row due to the route they've chose is a big big lost opportunity as it would've been ideal for down there with the 2, 4, 37, 39, 78 and X1 already serving it. Would've been ideal for the likes of Fencehouses or whatever.

that would be me!!! ;o;.

I still say too many buses go into Newcastle when thye could just end journey at gateshead,  Ive seen nothing on social media about people who wanted John Dobson street having to alight the "X" services at gateshead and hop on a 56,57,58, or 28,28bor 29 due to the express service going straight to barras bridge. 

Its no so bad now but before askew road was made bus lane it could take the bus a good 20 minutes plus at peak to get to eldon square and to be fair it wasnt just cars and lorries causing the traffice, it was other buses carrying freash air heading all to same destination

(3 hours ago)Rob44 wrote that would be me!!! ;o;.

I still say too many buses go into Newcastle when thye could just end journey at gateshead,  Ive seen nothing on social media about people who wanted John Dobson street having to alight the "X" services at gateshead and hop on a 56,57,58, or 28,28bor 29 due to the express service going straight to barras bridge. 

Its no so bad now but before askew road was made bus lane it could take the bus a good 20 minutes plus at peak to get to eldon square and to be fair it wasnt just cars and lorries causing the traffice, it was other buses carrying freash air heading all to same destination

Aye I get the argument, to be fair, but I'd find it annoying if I had to get a bus from here to say Four Lane Ends which would take 25 minutes to then have to change at the Metro. Would be a right chew on when I've done most the journey.

The only exception for Gateshead is the 27 really, as you could change at Heworth for Newcastle and it's probably six and two threes anyway, potentially quicker if you utilised the resource to up the rest of the route anyway. Obviously with Intermodal tickets anyway. 

The obvious routes like the 57 which you could make an argument for are just too infrequent really.

(3 hours ago)Rob44 wrote that would be me!!! ;o;.

I still say too many buses go into Newcastle when thye could just end journey at gateshead,  Ive seen nothing on social media about people who wanted John Dobson street having to alight the "X" services at gateshead and hop on a 56,57,58, or 28,28bor 29 due to the express service going straight to barras bridge. 

Its no so bad now but before askew road was made bus lane it could take the bus a good 20 minutes plus at peak to get to eldon square and to be fair it wasnt just cars and lorries causing the traffice, it was other buses carrying freash air heading all to same destination

There are lots of routes that cross the Tyne Bridge but if you count the actual trips each hour, it's not an overwhelming number of departures

The Metro simply couldn't cope with the numbers of people that buses would be dump at Gateshead.

(2 hours ago)DodgepotMcDougal wrote There are lots of routes that cross the Tyne Bridge but if you count the actual trips each hour, it's not an overwhelming number of departures
 
The Metro simply couldn't cope with the numbers of people that buses would be dump at Gateshead. 

It did between 81 and 86 when numbers using public transport, was greater than now. 
Unsure why it couldn't cope now...

(2 hours ago)Storx wrote Aye I get the argument, to be fair, but I'd find it annoying if I had to get a bus from here to say Four Lane Ends which would take 25 minutes to then have to change at the Metro. Would be a right chew on when I've done most the journey.

The only exception for Gateshead is the 27 really, as you could change at Heworth for Newcastle and it's probably six and two threes anyway, potentially quicker if you utilised the resource to up the rest of the route anyway. Obviously with Intermodal tickets anyway. 

The obvious routes like the 57 which you could make an argument for are just too infrequent really.

 I see what you mean too but where do you draw the line. Take the GNR and regent centre.  Would you end the route of the 44 and 45 there but allow the 43 and the x services continue because its about 20 minute to there from Dininngton, Brunwick and the rig but because it would take well over 30 minutes on the buses from blyth/morpeth and other nothern town they could just continue on?

---

(1 hour ago)Andreos1 wrote It did between 81 and 86 when numbers using public transport, was greater than now. 
Unsure why it couldn't cope now...

good point!!!

(Yesterday, 8:04 pm)Adrian wrote I don't even think that's the core of the issue here. The issue is that they can dig, change and reallocate all the road space they want, but they do not have the power (at present) to change the network in such a way that space is utilised. 
 

We've seen other examples around the region, where bus priority is introduced at great cost, yet the service frequency decreases.

Once there's some cooperation, hopefully we'll see some improvement.

Even if they were and they did, I still don't see the need for it with regards to all of the people coming to work at HMRC in Newcastle. 

It's already been said that there's no parking and public transport will be the only viable mode of transport. 

If that's the case, then there won't be the need for priority measures.
There won't be any cars on the road. 
Everyone will be on the bus, train or metro. 

Unless of course, there will be loads of traffic and that traffic will be made up of cars going to places where public transport isn't an option at all.

I've said it before and will keep saying it. 
Public transport needs to work for the public. 
Traffic jams, road improvement schemes etc only exist because people prefer the car over a multi-vehicle or multi-mode journey to and from work, which takes 2 or 3 times longer than driving in.

If public transport worked as it should, we wouldn't see extra tunnels being put in under the Tyne, the A1 being widened, junction improvements at various stages of the A19, nor gridlock around Gateshead & Newcastle because of 1960s concrete failing. 

I'd argue we wouldn't need those bus priority measures either. 
There wouldn't be any need for it.

(1 hour ago)Andreos1 wrote It did between 81 and 86 when numbers using public transport, was greater than now. 
Unsure why it couldn't cope now...

Well, the frequency of the Metro is lower now for a start and users were forced off a Gateshead by choice.

(52 minutes ago)DodgepotMcDougal wrote Well, the frequency of the Metro is lower now for a start and users were forced off a Gateshead by choice. 

And it coped.

(44 minutes ago)Andreos1 wrote And it coped.

The Metro was more frequent and went to fewer places. You can address that point if you want as well...

(31 minutes ago)DodgepotMcDougal wrote The Metro was more frequent and went to fewer places. You can address that point if you want as well...

It was more frequent. 
It went to fewer places. 
It still coped. 

There were more people going through the core then, than there is now. 
It still coped.

(1 hour ago)Rob44 wrote  I see what you mean too but where do you draw the line. Take the GNR and regent centre.  Would you end the route of the 44 and 45 there but allow the 43 and the x services continue because its about 20 minute to there from Dininngton, Brunwick and the rig but because it would take well over 30 minutes on the buses from blyth/morpeth and other nothern town they could just continue on?

Aye the Regent Centre has the same issues really. Stuff like Q3, 49 and X46 definitely though as they shouldn't exist. 

I'd even make the case for 35 aswell. The amount of PVR those services heading down through Gosforth, and they don't pick people up either, you could have a bloody frequent service to each of the little legs. 

Will they be busy - probably not, but neither are the buses now so might aswell try something different and it's less buses clogging up Gosforth High Street. They're all subsidised, bar the Q3, so they could do it tomorrow really. 

The 43/44/45 should exist though as something has to serve the Great North Road and they're the best services for it imo. 

The X's probably shouldn't all exist, some of them at least, if Cramlington, Morpeth, Pegswood, Widdrington and the Northumberland Line stations have better trains and better connectivity really but that's fantasy land really.

see if i went back to living in the rigg and was given the choice of the stus quo of 2 bph to toon or to regent centre then metro to tow ( for same price mind) but with a bus every 15 minutes I would go for the latter..... and i would say the same now about me using the 28/28b/29 i would get off at gateshead and metro it across ( or use another GNE bus) to get to town if it meant a bus every 30 mins rather then hourly 9 and sometime more if you check out the timetable)_

(29 minutes ago)Andreos1 wrote It was more frequent. 
It went to fewer places. 
It still coped. 

There were more people going through the core then, than there is now. 
It still coped.

It coped as it had capacity. That capacity no longer exists