(26 Jul 2014, 8:39 am)Dan wrote Good job other hardware can be used to ensure that all vehicles can be traced! We've already discussed Arriva's system for real time information being less than ideal - Go North East won't have this problem.

I'll be quite interested to see it in action. It's bound to be an improvement on the Siemens AVL system they purchased...

A criticism I have of the Arriva live map is that when a vehicle (presumably) loses data signal, which happens a lot in rural Durham, it disappears from the map completely. It should display an estimated location with a different icon colour instead, until it picks data signal back up. I also think the live map should indicate zone boundaries, and I'd hope GNE's solution would say shade different parts of the map different colours, depending on the Buzzfare zone.

(26 Jul 2014, 8:35 am)palatine3833 wrote they certainly have a few benefits over the ERG model which GNE have (including GPS that works)

Apart from the GPS (in fact GNE ticket machines are starting to get fitted with sim's this weekend for AVL), what other benefits do the Parkeon machines offer compared to Vix?

(26 Jul 2014, 9:24 am)aureolin wrote I'll be quite interested to see it in action. It's bound to be an improvement on the Siemens AVL system they purchased...

A criticism I have of the Arriva live map is that when a vehicle (presumably) loses data signal, which happens a lot in rural Durham, it disappears from the map completely. It should display an estimated location with a different icon colour instead, until it picks data signal back up. I also think the live map should indicate zone boundaries, and I'd hope GNE's solution would say shade different parts of the map different colours, depending on the Buzzfare zone.

The Arriva map can do this, indeed I've just been looking at mine and the buses that are not being tracked (for whatever reason) are displaying an estimated location with a grey icon instead of green.

(26 Jul 2014, 9:35 am)tyresmoke wrote The Arriva map can do this, indeed I've just been looking at mine and the buses that are not being tracked (for whatever reason) are displaying an estimated location with a grey icon instead of green.

Scott, is it estimated or is it just the scheduled time from the timetable?

(26 Jul 2014, 9:35 am)tyresmoke wrote The Arriva map can do this, indeed I've just been looking at mine and the buses that are not being tracked (for whatever reason) are displaying an estimated location with a grey icon instead of green.

I have the setting disabled to only show live buses, and find that aureolin is right - they often don't re-appear as grey - and have found that once you exit the application and go back on it, it does pick up these buses with grey icons.

(26 Jul 2014, 9:35 am)tyresmoke wrote The Arriva map can do this, indeed I've just been looking at mine and the buses that are not being tracked (for whatever reason) are displaying an estimated location with a grey icon instead of green.

The estimation is incorrect though. It either freezes completely, or it jumps back or forward, to what it's position *would* be if it was working to timetable. If you watch what the X1 tends to do between Bowburn and Durham you'll see what I mean. I think the grey icons are just buses that aren't tracked altogether, so again, just follows what the position would be according to timetable.

Edit: Have a quick look at the two X1s on the A177 at Bowburn now.

(26 Jul 2014, 9:39 am)citaro5284 wrote Scott, is it estimated or is it just the scheduled time from the timetable?

Yeah it'll be from the timetabled times.

(26 Jul 2014, 9:44 am)tyresmoke wrote Yeah it'll be from the timetabled times.

I hadn't realised that.

So if it's running 20 minutes late when it is being tracked, loses signal, does the grey blob suggest it's on time and jumps to where it would be if it wasn't 20 minutes late?

(26 Jul 2014, 9:45 am)Dan wrote I hadn't realised that.

So if it's running 20 minutes late when it is being tracked, loses signal, does the grey blob suggest it's on time and jumps to where it would be if it wasn't 20 minutes late?

Yeah though it doesn't suggest it is on time, just displays "this bus isn't currently being tracked"

(26 Jul 2014, 9:46 am)tyresmoke wrote Yeah though it doesn't suggest it is on time, just displays "this bus isn't currently being tracked"

FAO citaro5284 - if, for whatever reason, GNE's buses lose signal when they have this technology, will it be estimated rather than just go off the timetable?

Clearly, whilst it's good Arriva make it clear that the bus isn't being tracked, it goes without saying that it isn't ideal if a bus is running 20 minutes late, and then looks like it's on-time when it can't be tracked.

(26 Jul 2014, 9:51 am)Dan wrote FAO citaro5284 - if, for whatever reason, GNE's buses lose signal when they have this technology, will it be estimated rather than just go off the timetable?

I have seen a demo of it and Vix have suggested that their system estimates based on last point rather than just going to a timetable location. I think the main difference is the Vix system uses the vehicles running board rather than trip numbers alone, so an example is if a bus is running 10 minutes late into a terminus and it is changing route/trip number, and the running board says he has 10 mins layover, the system will then say he is going to depart on time, however if running 12 late, it will say he is departing 2L.

I think the Arriva system just looks at trip numbers only, so until a driver keys in a new journey number, it assumes the vehicle is on time. And of course you should never assume as it makes an ass out of u and me

(26 Jul 2014, 9:59 am)citaro5284 wrote I have seen a demo of it and Vix have suggested that their system estimates based on last point rather than just going to a timetable location. I think the main difference is the Vix system uses the vehicles running board rather than trip numbers alone, so an example is if a bus is running 10 minutes late into a terminus and it is changing route/trip number, and the running board says he has 10 mins layover, the system will then say he is going to depart on time, however if running 12 late, it will say he is departing 2L.

I think the Arriva system just looks at trip numbers only, so until a driver keys in a new journey number, it assumes the vehicle is on time. And of course you should never assume as it makes an ass out of u and me

The Arriva system does work on the bus board, so it should provide delay information for subsequent journeys when using the planner - even if the trip hasn't commenced yet, but the bus that is due to operate it is somewhere near to completing the trip before hand.

Not sure if it calculates delay with layover offset though.

(26 Jul 2014, 11:42 am)VolvoMarkII wrote The Arriva system does work on the bus board, so it should provide delay information for subsequent journeys when using the planner - even if the trip hasn't commenced yet, but the bus that is due to operate it is somewhere near to completing the trip before hand.

Not sure if it calculates delay with layover offset though.

If it uses running boards, how does it not show correctly when lets say the X5 is running late into Haymarket which then goes out on the X4, but when standing at the Haymarket it is showing the X4 been on time, until the driver changes the route/trip number?

(26 Jul 2014, 11:42 am)VolvoMarkII wrote The Arriva system does work on the bus board, so it should provide delay information for subsequent journeys when using the planner - even if the trip hasn't commenced yet, but the bus that is due to operate it is somewhere near to completing the trip before hand.

Not sure if it calculates delay with layover offset though.

It doesn't though? There's a 24 on the map at present that's showing 20 minutes late heading into Durham. It'll be the one that was due in at 1317. That's meant to go back out at 1322, but it's not showing on the map? Inactive or otherwise?

(26 Jul 2014, 12:40 pm)aureolin wrote It doesn't though? There's a 24 on the map at present that's showing 20 minutes late heading into Durham. It'll be the one that was due in at 1317. That's meant to go back out at 1322, but it's not showing on the map? Inactive or otherwise?

The trip planner does show it as going back out late though...

Ive gived up using the Arriva live map App.

Since their last updated the App, the bus icon only moves when the App updates every 1 or 2 minutes ish, which is not real time. sometimes the icon says the bus has just arrived at peterlee bus station and next thing I know the bus has just gone past my house, Arriva needs to sort it out, before their updated the App you could see the bus icon moving along the road.

(26 Jul 2014, 12:43 pm)tyresmoke wrote The trip planner does show it as going back out late though...

It will now, given that it's actually on that run..?

(26 Jul 2014, 12:43 pm)tyresmoke wrote The trip planner does show it as going back out late though...

But if I'm waiting at say Sherburn Village for the 24 to Sunderland, it's of absolutely no use to me. Your average customer isn't going to know (or care) about trip numbers, running boards, interworking, etc. They're going to see nothing more than that their bus hasn't arrived, is almost 20 mins late, and it isn't showing on the live map...

(26 Jul 2014, 12:48 pm)Dan wrote It will now, given that it's actually on that run..?

See screenies below.


We can see that service 23 which is due to arrive into Hartlepool is currently expected to be arriving in 9 minutes late (14:56) - the service makes its return journey back to Sunderland at 14:51, yet on the Trip Planner, my bus is shown as running on time.

What would be good is if this could be updated in real time (which it would, if it were based off the running boards), and it would show a 5 minute delay to that service too.

Obviously, if the trip has already started (as in your example above Scott - it was twenty minutes late, and you took your screenie twenty minutes after it was due out), we can see this - but not before the trip has actually started... This may be the time when people are planning their journeys ahead of their day out.

Just to stick my two penneth in - why can the toc's have the system working like it has done for however many years, but bus operators seemingly can't get it right.

(26 Jul 2014, 1:04 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Just to stick my two penneth in - why can the toc's have the system working like it has done for however many years, but bus operators seemingly can't get it right.

Add the word 'some' before 'bus operators', and you're onto a winner.

Judging by the information citaro5284 has given, Go North East will be getting it right when released.

(26 Jul 2014, 1:04 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Just to stick my two penneth in - why can the toc's have the system working like it has done for however many years, but bus operators seemingly can't get it right.

Two completely different solutions. Buses need to use a combination of GPS and mobile data. GPS obviously for the vehicle to work out it's position, and mobile data to transmit it to a central control centre. I don't pretend to know an awful lot about rail, but I believe the rail system tracks the unique identifier of a registered train passing different 'check points' throughout the network rail infrastructure. Metro does the same, as you'll notice the next stop announcement always triggers at the same point.

(26 Jul 2014, 1:10 pm)aureolin wrote Two completely different solutions. Buses need to use a combination of GPS and mobile data. GPS obviously for the vehicle to work out it's position, and mobile data to transmit it to a central control centre. I don't pretend to know an awful lot about rail, but I believe the rail system tracks the unique identifier of a registered train passing different 'check points' throughout the network rail infrastructure. Metro does the same, as you'll notice the next stop announcement always triggers at the same point.

You are right. I think we have all used real time trains and that is exactly how it works. For anyone who has not, an example is below.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G3...6/advanced

(26 Jul 2014, 1:06 pm)Dan wrote Add the word 'some' before 'bus operators', and you're onto a winner.

Judging by the information citaro5284 has given, Go North East will be getting it right when released.

It sounds better if it works on running boards obviously, as it provides the customers with more information, but I'll reserve my judgement until I actually see it in operation. These things usually need a good bedding in period and a bit tweaking to do exactly as intended.

(26 Jul 2014, 1:06 pm)Dan wrote Add the word 'some' before 'bus operators', and you're onto a winner.

Judging by the information citaro5284 has given, Go North East will be getting it right when released.

Lost count how many long it has been since the first "we are currently trialling..." was first trotted out on fb and they first received funding.
They have had long enough to get it right

(26 Jul 2014, 1:15 pm)citaro5284 wrote You are right. I think we have all used real time trains and that is exactly how it works. For anyone who has not, an example is below.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G3...6/advanced

Out of interest (and as we've gone off topic, it's probably worth splitting this thread), who is behind RTT? I've used it plenty, but have no idea how such information is gathered online.

(26 Jul 2014, 1:18 pm)Dan wrote Out of interest (and as we've gone off topic, it's probably worth splitting this thread), who is behind RTT? I've used it plenty, but have no idea how such information is gathered online.

It's all info made publicly available. There's some info on Network Rail's website for developers. here: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/data-feeds/

It's also worth a look at the Open Rail Data Wiki: http://nrodwiki.rockshore.net/index.php/Main_Page

What'd be great is if bus operators would make their data feeds publicly available for developers. It'd give someone the opportunity to collate service information for the big three in the North East in one source.

(26 Jul 2014, 1:10 pm)aureolin wrote Two completely different solutions. Buses need to use a combination of GPS and mobile data. GPS obviously for the vehicle to work out it's position, and mobile data to transmit it to a central control centre. I don't pretend to know an awful lot about rail, but I believe the rail system tracks the unique identifier of a registered train passing different 'check points' throughout the network rail infrastructure. Metro does the same, as you'll notice the next stop announcement always triggers at the same point.

But the same system can work with buses too.

All it takes is a TPE (Nexus) to take control of the system in that specific region and use a bus stop as a check point.

Instead, the bus operators go off on their own, developing and utilising their own system - which like ticketing, has numerous flaws along the way.

More or less each toc has their own app now, using Network Rail systems to show live running times.

I see no reason why it can't work with the bus companies.

(26 Jul 2014, 1:17 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Lost count how many long it has been since the first "we are currently trialling..." was first trotted out on fb and they first received funding.
They have had long enough to get it right

Disaster on multiple sides with the old system not just GNE, there was multiple partners involved, GNE, local councils, Nexus, Siemens and others and it was not just a simple case of it all been GNE's fault (which some people would like to think).

(26 Jul 2014, 1:27 pm)citaro5284 wrote Disaster on multiple sides with the old system not just GNE, there was multiple partners involved, GNE, local councils, Nexus, Siemens and others and it was not just a simple case of it all been GNE's fault (which some people would like to think).

Oooh, like who?
You gonna name, names?

Getting back to the other point, how many years has it been going on now? It must be 2 - at the very minimum.