(04 Aug 2022, 12:10 pm)Unber43 wrote The 25 is the 62 which mostly runs in GNE territory if it apparently didn't work for GNE arriva aren't going to stand the chance, especially with them being the odd one out in the Sunderland area. 

27 again that is pretty much the X1, however I never really understood why the X1, atleast 1 per hour never has again it would pretty much have Arriva sticking out like a sore thumb and it would push more people away from buses, same with the 26. Also I can't imagine many people want to go to Hartlepool from Seaham/Dalton Park. 

If anything Hartlepool to Dalton Park should be a bigger part of an express similar to the X22 (which I believe is already a service in the Peterlee area), and every 30 mins between Dalton Park and Newcastle I doubt would work through Arriva maybe with GNE operating it but Arriva wouldn’t stand a chance.

Was just a few ideas. You would be surprised how many people go to Dalton Park from Hartlepool as well and a Service to Seaham especially during holidays would actually work especially with trains not been very reliable and packed.  I meant to put X23 instead of X22.     One of the problems with this forum is mean people moan about services not been good enough or services been cut when they needed yet when suggestions are made people just say it won’t work. Nobody can know for sure unless things get tried though.  
That express is not quite the same as the X1 either there is no service From Hartlepool or Peterlee to Beamish. It opens up a new link to get to the museum.   It provides some links lost from the 55 going.  The 25 while similar to the 62 would open up links to Hordon Stations.  Despite having a bus stop  do any services go to the station at all.

The 62 failed because it went through Horden, at least going by what people in the local Facebook group were moaning about. It increased the journey time to Peterlee for little benefit, and introduced a longer walk for those using to get to either EDC or Easington Academy.

I think they'd be much better (if they were tapping into the Seaham & Dawdon - Easington/Peterlee market) by just diverting the 22 via Dawdon & the harbour, even if it was just once per hour as the 22A.

(04 Aug 2022, 7:35 pm)F114TML wrote The 62 failed because it went through Horden, at least going by what people in the local Facebook group were moaning about. It increased the journey time to Peterlee for little benefit, and introduced a longer walk for those using to get to either EDC or Easington Academy.

I think they'd be much better (if they were tapping into the Seaham & Dawdon - Easington/Peterlee market) by just diverting the 22 via Dawdon & the harbour, even if it was just once per hour as the 22A.

Would it not be better if the 23 did there as the 22 seems long enough as it is.

(04 Aug 2022, 8:56 pm)col87 wrote Would it not be better if the 23 did there as the 22 seems long enough as it is.

Yeah but that conflicts with my statement as to why the 62 failed

Although tbf it doesn't actually go through Horden, just Easington Colliery, but still. 22 is best of both worlds (if what I was saying was correct in that people wanted the bus to stop at, or very near, to Easington Academy or East Durham College - 22 stops outside both.

(04 Aug 2022, 7:35 pm)F114TML wrote The 62 failed because it went through Horden, at least going by what people in the local Facebook group were moaning about. It increased the journey time to Peterlee for little benefit, and introduced a longer walk for those using to get to either EDC or Easington Academy.

I think they'd be much better (if they were tapping into the Seaham & Dawdon - Easington/Peterlee market) by just diverting the 22 via Dawdon & the harbour, even if it was just once per hour as the 22A.

Surely the 62 failed because of:

The 22/23 is quicker between Sunderland and Easington / Peterlee and more frequent
The X6 is quicker between Seaham and Peterlee
The X6 left 5 mins apart between Seaham and Sunderland
The X1 does South Hetton and Easington Lane to Peterlee quicker

Once you take all that out what exactly did it do, Easington to Seaham / South Hetton via the world and Murton to Peterlee around the world as there's nothing else there really (the 55 still existed at the time).

(04 Aug 2022, 9:32 pm)Storx wrote Surely the 62 failed because of:

The 22/23 is quicker between Sunderland and Easington / Peterlee and more frequent
The X6 is quicker between Seaham and Peterlee
The X6 left 5 mins apart between Seaham and Sunderland
The X1 does South Hetton and Easington Lane to Peterlee quicker

Once you take all that out what exactly did it do, Easington to Seaham / South Hetton via the world and Murton to Peterlee around the world as there's nothing else there really (the 55 still existed at the time).

I don't think 22/23 really had any impact because the 202 was always popular before, however its the timings with the X6. 

X1 extension we can debate all day but it was to cancel 55 whether GNE says it or not.

(04 Aug 2022, 9:32 pm)Storx wrote Surely the 62 failed because of:

The 22/23 is quicker between Sunderland and Easington / Peterlee and more frequent
The X6 is quicker between Seaham and Peterlee
The X6 left 5 mins apart between Seaham and Sunderland
The X1 does South Hetton and Easington Lane to Peterlee quicker

Once you take all that out what exactly did it do, Easington to Seaham / South Hetton via the world and Murton to Peterlee around the world as there's nothing else there really (the 55 still existed at the time).

The route it replaced (the 202) was fine though.

The 62 and 202 had decent loads throughout from what I experienced, so it wasn't even that much of a failure. And now Dawdon has completely lost its service to Dalton Park and Peterlee.

(04 Aug 2022, 9:39 pm)F114TML wrote The route it replaced (the 202) was fine though.

The 62 and 202 had decent loads throughout from what I experienced, so it wasn't even that much of a failure. And now Dawdon has completely lost its service to Dalton Park and Peterlee.

tbh it's all down the 65 being upped to every 30 minutes which really wasn't needed imo.

The whole network around there someone needs to sit down and think what's going on tbh. Low Moorsley a population of about 300 people have a better bus service than Murton and South Hetton it's just messed up and I'm really not sure whether they really need 5 X1's South of Houghton an hour. It's a waste of resources imo.

(04 Aug 2022, 11:16 pm)Storx wrote tbh it's all down the 65 being upped to every 30 minutes which really wasn't needed imo.

The whole network around there someone needs to sit down and think what's going on tbh. Low Moorsley a population of about 300 people have a better bus service than Murton and South Hetton it's just messed up and I'm really not sure whether they really need 5 X1's South of Houghton an hour. It's a waste of resources imo.

I know people who use the 65 who said through Seaham-Durham it is always busy. When i've seen it all over parts of its route its quite busy I got on it from Hetton to Durham and it was quite full.

Do you use the X1? As whenever im on it is normally quite busy before it reaches Houghton, infact more people tend to get on before Houghton then any other place on the route except Washignton

Oh yeah, when the 65 is allocated a Solo (which I've had twice), it's standing room only - was never like that as the 265 unless it was kicky out time at schools.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out after Union action at CLS.

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(12 Aug 2022, 5:44 pm)peter wrote There wouldn't be enough space at Blyth to house the 43/44/45, 52/53/54 and 306 on top of their current routes.

One thing I have noticed which may not be a coincidence is the 30th October is when the Covid money runs out...perhaps we've got some cuts coming so there is enough room for everything at Blyth (apart from the midibus routes and 685).

Other than maybe the following which could happen, Northumbria has a pretty stable and solid network.

- X8 withdrawn.

- X7 increased to every 20 mins.

- 43 every 30 mins to Cramlington, then every 60 mins to Blyth following current X8 route from Cramlington. Maybe additionally serving Amersham Road.

- 43A every 30 minutes to Cramlington then every 60 mins to Morpeth via current 43 route between Cramlington and Morpeth. Same route as X8 between Cramlington and Annitsford, then via Fern Drive to Dudley before following same route as 43. Maybe additionally serving NESEH grounds.

Current PVRs - Total 29x:
- 43 - 7x (on normal 15 min frequency)
- X7/X8/X9 - 14X
- X10/X11 - 8X

New PVRs - Total 29x: 
- 43/43A - 9x
- X7 - 7x
- X9/X10/X11 - 13x

Wouldn't be an actual PVR reduction, but would create some new links in the process.

(12 Aug 2022, 8:27 pm)Malarkey wrote Could the likes of Services 1/2 interwork or merge with 308 for example in order to reduce PVR at Blyth, furthermore is there really the need for the amount of Services that go through Gosforth/Regent Centre and Blyth, could some of these express service again be merged into normal standard services such as the 52/54/55 with the X7/X8 given they operate through similar corridors.

Merging the 52/54/55 and X7 is a just a big no unless you want to kill the route for a second time, they tried it before and people voted with their feet.

I don't think the X8 will survive though unless something changes and will merge with the 52 somehow at some point, they're both a bit samey.

I know this isn't a suggestions thread but imo doing either these:

X7 - Do the old 363 route via Fern Drive
52 - Current route to Burradon, then X8 route to Blyth
X8 - Withdrawn

or

X7 - Same
52 - Same extended to Blyth via X8 route
X20 - Additionally serve High Pit and Annitsford like the old X24/X25 omitting Cramlington (they're covered by the 57A and X9 anyway)
X8 - Withdrawn

Haven't decided which would be better but the X20 is a quiet route aswell and Burradon only ever used to have a 30 minute service with the 363/364 for years until they rerouted the X24/X25 through there.

Transfer 44/45 to Belmont and interwork with X12

(12 Aug 2022, 8:51 pm)Storx wrote Merging the 52/54/55 and X7 is a just a big no unless you want to kill the route for a second time, they tried it before and people voted with their feet.

I don't think the X8 will survive though unless something changes and will merge with the 52 somehow at some point, they're both a bit samey.

I know this isn't a suggestions thread but imo doing either these:

X7 - Do the old 363 route via Fern Drive
52 - Current route to Burradon, then X8 route to Blyth
X8 - Withdrawn

or

X7 - Same
52 - Same extended to Blyth via X8 route
X20 - Additionally serve High Pit and Annitsford like the old X24/X25 omitting Cramlington (they're covered by the 57A and X9 anyway)
X8 - Withdrawn

Haven't decided which would be better but the X20 is a quiet route aswell and Burradon only ever used to have a 30 minute service with the 363/364 for years until they rerouted the X24/X25 through there.

Any more changes to extend the already lengthy X7 journey times will probably will kill it again, possibly unless Arriva extend the Cramlington Routesaver validity into Seaton Valley to compensate. The fares are already far to high for Seaton Valley and have been for too long IMHO.

(12 Aug 2022, 9:17 pm)solsburian wrote Any more changes to extend the already lengthy X7 journey times will probably will kill it again, possibly unless Arriva extend the Cramlington Routesaver validity into Seaton Valley to compensate. The fares are already far to high for Seaton Valley and have been for too long IMHO.

Aye totally agreed tbh. Mind I think the first one I'd probably accept if they upped it to every 20 minutes for compensation. I'd take the more frequent service for an extra couple minutes personally. There's probably enough on the route to warrant it really with South Beach, Seaton Valley, Fern Drive, Burradon and Quorum.

(12 Aug 2022, 9:17 pm)minibus1474 wrote Transfer 44/45 to Belmont and interwork with X12

Although I get where you're coming from as it says some roles are moving to Belmont, I think that's primarily the engineering side of things. The X12 runs hourly to Newcastle where the 44/45 run every 15/20 minutes-ish so I can't see it working. Also, the X12 is run by Stockton now anyways.

(12 Aug 2022, 9:30 pm)V514DFT wrote What are the interworking paterns like at Jesmond

The 52, 53 and 54 interwork. The 43, 44 and 45 interwork currently, if the timetable ever re-increases the 43 is standalone from the 44/45. The 46/46A interwork with the 51/51A. Everything else standalone I believe.

A hypothetical one here, would Arriva not have been better off doing a deal with GNE?

GNE > Arriva
- 21 - Arriva takes this on and operates out of Belmont.
- GNE keep the X21 to keep CMA happy.

Arriva > GNE
- All Jesmond routes bar the 306 which is kept by Arriva and moved to Blyth. 685 moved to Hexham.
* All other services split between Percy Main & Riverside.

Benefits:
- Dead mileage reduced for both operators (although GNE would need to keep the X21 > could find space at Washington maybe moving the 8 to Consett and doing remote reliefs at Stanley).
- ANE get another 'gold mine' route in their portfolio alongside the 308 as well as some drivers from GNE's CLS operation if they agreed to TUPE and move to Belmont.
- GNE get an increased presence again in North Tyneside and can (hopefully under a new MD) stabilise their network.
- ANE can have a stronger focus concentrating on Blyth & Ashington.

I highly doubt GNE would give Arriva their flagship and strongest route

(13 Aug 2022, 9:42 am)Jack Gill wrote I highly doubt GNE would give Arriva their flagship and strongest route

So GNE would be giving up a PVR of 13x.......but in return:

- 43/44/45 - 12x - These set of routes are actually money makers
- 52/53/54 - 14x - not exactly 'money makers' but could stabilise GNE's North Tyneside network
- 685 - 3x - Capable of making money
- 46/46A/51/51A - 5x

The big one for both operators (with the exception of the X21) would be the reduction of dead mileage and complicated interworking patterns.

(13 Aug 2022, 9:35 am)L469 YVK wrote A hypothetical one here, would Arriva not have been better off doing a deal with GNE?

GNE > Arriva
- 21 - Arriva takes this on and operates out of Belmont.
- GNE keep the X21 to keep CMA happy.

Arriva > GNE
- All Jesmond routes bar the 306 which is kept by Arriva and moved to Blyth. 685 moved to Hexham.
* All other services split between Percy Main & Riverside.

Benefits:
- Dead mileage reduced for both operators (although GNE would need to keep the X21 > could find space at Washington maybe moving the 8 to Consett and doing remote reliefs at Stanley).
- ANE get another 'gold mine' route in their portfolio alongside the 308 as well as some drivers from GNE's CLS operation if they agreed to TUPE and move to Belmont.
- GNE get an increased presence again in North Tyneside and can (hopefully under a new MD) stabilise their network.
- ANE can have a stronger focus concentrating on Blyth & Ashington.

You must have been smoking some kind of drugs there this morning Davey son!

(13 Aug 2022, 8:37 am)RMF1254 wrote I thought the 51 was commercial although when the 51a started I think there was some input from the house builders at Holystone and East Benton. When GNE withdrew the 42/42a I think Nexus put some money towards the 51a running via Wiltshire Drive to maintain a half hourly link to Benton ASDA.

I'm not too sure but I know in the spreadsheet the whole route is listed in the freedom of request awhile back but it's in 3 bits for some reason - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/b...ng-1590909

8801 51 Benton Asda - Holystone - West Allotment - Shiremoor - Earsdon - Beaumont Park - Whitley Bay Monday - Sunday all day route extension
8802 51 Newcastle - Benton Asda - Holystone Daily daytime service
8802 51A Newcastle - Benton Asda - Holystone Daily daytime service

That's the details though pulled out.

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(13 Aug 2022, 9:35 am)L469 YVK wrote A hypothetical one here, would Arriva not have been better off doing a deal with GNE?

GNE > Arriva
- 21 - Arriva takes this on and operates out of Belmont.
- GNE keep the X21 to keep CMA happy.

Arriva > GNE
- All Jesmond routes bar the 306 which is kept by Arriva and moved to Blyth. 685 moved to Hexham.
* All other services split between Percy Main & Riverside.

Benefits:
- Dead mileage reduced for both operators (although GNE would need to keep the X21 > could find space at Washington maybe moving the 8 to Consett and doing remote reliefs at Stanley).
- ANE get another 'gold mine' route in their portfolio alongside the 308 as well as some drivers from GNE's CLS operation if they agreed to TUPE and move to Belmont.
- GNE get an increased presence again in North Tyneside and can (hopefully under a new MD) stabilise their network.
- ANE can have a stronger focus concentrating on Blyth & Ashington.

If were going on bonker ideas surely it would be better for Arriva to just buy Percy Main with the 1 moving to Riverside or Stagecoach.

You've fixed the mess of the Coast Road overnight and Arriva have a depot on the Coast for the Coast Road services and 41/41A/51/52/53/54/57 which are all close by.

(13 Aug 2022, 10:31 am)Storx wrote

---

If were going on bonker ideas surely it would be better for Arriva to just buy Percy Main with the 1 moving to Riverside or Stagecoach.

You've fixed the mess of the Coast Road overnight and Arriva have a depot on the Coast for the Coast Road services and 41/41A/51/52/53/54/57 which are all close by.

All depends on the life span of the depot.

For starters, the 309/310/311 would need to stay with GNE (moving to Riverside) or the CMA would be all over it.

The number 1, GNE could give that up with Stagecoach somehow merging parts into a 22 or 22A.

That would leave the 19 and 41/41A. As for Percy Main and Arriva's operations, would need some remote reliefs but dead mileage would be way less than Ashington or Blyth

- 52/53/54 - Changed at New York or Billy Mill Avenue

- 306 - Changed at Formica

- 46/46A/51/51A - Changed at Holystone Park or West Allotment

- 43/44/45 - Changed at Haymarket

(13 Aug 2022, 1:31 pm)L469 YVK wrote All depends on the life span of the depot.

For starters, the 309/310/311 would need to stay with GNE (moving to Riverside) or the CMA would be all over it.

The number 1, GNE could give that up with Stagecoach somehow merging parts into a 22 or 22A.

That would leave the 19 and 41/41A. As for Percy Main and Arriva's operations, would need some remote reliefs but dead mileage would be way less than Ashington or Blyth

- 52/53/54 - Changed at New York or Billy Mill Avenue

- 306 - Changed at Formica

- 46/46A/51/51A - Changed at Holystone Park or West Allotment

- 43/44/45 - Changed at Haymarket

41/41A could have some sort of interworking with drivers not buses at Wallsend with the QA/QB. 

19 could work if GNE regained the North Shields Extension.

Could the 43 not be split from the 44/45, and the 53 split from the 52/54,then interwork the 43/53 at Cramlington

Could the 47 not be canned,then have the 55 extended to replace the 47

(13 Aug 2022, 11:22 pm)V514DFT wrote Could the 43 not be split from the 44/45, and the 53 split from the 52/54,then interwork the 43/53 at Cramlington

Problem with that is the Bedlington and Morpeth extension.

It could be viable to extend the 53 to Bedlington and truncate the 43 to there too, with them alternating into the newer estates in the area. Perhaps sending one of the routes via Bebside and Bedlington Station to cover the Bebside-Cramlington leg of the X9, with one of the X10/X11 starting up in Bebside instead to maintain the Newcastle link.

(13 Aug 2022, 11:23 pm)V514DFT wrote Could the 47 not be canned,then have the 55 extended to replace the 47

it used to be an extension of the 46 but was split in Haymarket so I guess same would apply for the 55. When I have saw it, it’s always a double decker and has nobody on it seems a waste!

Pretty sure the 47 is a contract for the Hospitals. Think the idea was the 46 to go the hospital but it didn't work well with it being a solo (never see a long bus on the 46) so the 47 was introduced to do the hospital section of the 46 and it seems to work. With a decekr usually allocated during the morning & evening with 1499 to do during the day trips

(13 Aug 2022, 1:34 pm)Unber43 wrote 41/41A could have some sort of interworking with drivers not buses at Wallsend with the QA/QB. 

19 could work if GNE regained the North Shields Extension.

QA/QB would stay with GNE as that's moving to Riverside anyways.

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Going back to Storx's point yesterday in response to my barmy idea about a route swap, the idea of Arriva & GNE doing a 'swap' (Percy Main / Jesmond) wouldn't be a bad idea in hindsight. Obviously the CMA would say a big no-no to Arriva taking on the 309/310/311 and they'd have to stay with GNE. But working it out...........

Arriva > GNE:
- Jesmond Depot with enough drivers to cover PVR of 25x (+ some misc workings such as service 327).
- Route 685 only + 3x VDL Pulsars.
- GNE moves 685 operation to Hexham.
- GNE transfer 11x StreetLite + 18x B9TL (and any other misc vehicles) to Riverside.
- Jesmond Depot operation moved to Riverside, so effectively GNE would be purchasing Arriva's workforce + service 685 and 3x vehicles. Most Jesmond drivers TUPE over to GNE and move to Riverside although some could stay with Arriva and move to Percy Main (or Blyth / Ashington if preferable).
- 1/309/310/311 moved to Riverside.

GNE > Arriva:
- Percy Main Depot including routes 19/41/41A and 7x appropriate vehicles to cover the PVRs.
- Arriva move service 43/44/45/46/46A/51/51A/52/53/54/55/306 to Percy Main.
- Percy Main total PVR would be 49x vehicles (+ any misc workings as applicable).
- Would use GNE's existing Percy Main workforce, all of whom would TUPE to Arriva alongside any existing Arriva drivers who chose to stay with Arriva and move from Jesmond.

Longer term Arriva changes:
- Service 55 withdrawn.
- Service 306 interworks with services 44/45.
- Full service 43 boards from Morpeth (including half hourly shorts to Cramlington) operated by Ashington - PVR 4x
- Other half hourly boards on service 43 interwork with service 53 and stay at Percy Main - PVR 8x
- Service 52 interworks only with service 54 - PVR 8x
- Depot lifespan shouldn't be an issue if services recover longer term or favourable travel patterns emerge and Arriva take advantage. If developers want to purchase land to expand housing estate, agree for them to locate and partially or fully fund a new depot to replace Percy Main.

(14 Aug 2022, 11:01 am)Adrian wrote Mod note: I've done some housekeeping on this thread.

• The 'Newcastle Depot' thread has been merged into the already existing Jesmond Depot thread.
  
• Service suggestions (even those entering the realm of pure fantasy) have been moved to the Arriva Service Suggestions thread.
  

In order to keep this thread tidy and on topic, can we keep this to the Jesmond depot closure and the operational challenges around that? Suggestions of re-designing the network need to stay in the relevant suggestions threads.

Well post #1229 (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...#pid282961) on the Arriva Service Suggestions thread did take into account the operational challenges although it did show a few longer term 'implications' and benefits a swap would being which is what the discussion is about. Other than interworking patterns (which again as an operational issue), no mention of re-designing the network.

At one end of the spectrum, there's GNE who effectively don't have any presence in North Tyneside other than 4x groups of routes. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Arriva who do have some presence in the area although they can't remain at Jesmond for lease reasons or sustain a 'new' facility. Surely a swap would make sense? Effectively as long as the TUPE conditions were laid down to keep both sets of drivers happy, it would be a win-win:

- GNE effectively 'streamline' their depots only leaving Riverside, Consett (and Hexham), Washington and Deptford
- Arriva get another 'facility' cheaper than having to build a new facility with potential future development plans
- Both sets of drivers in most instances won't need to commute 'mega miles' just to get to work

GNE would never get away doing what they did to CLS with Percy Main. CLS had the advantage of nearby depots at Consett (although more miles away than Riverside but less traffic with potentially CLS drivers living in the likes of Stanley etc), Washington and Deptford. I doubt many drivers at Percy Main would take to being moved to Riverside. So longer term, it would be a problem washed both of GNE's and Arriva's hands.