(25 Apr 2022, 9:34 am)Jimmi wrote I wouldn't say the B5s on X21 are any more reliable/unreliable than most of the other modern stock, there's always going to be times when a bus needs to be off the road whether that be for maintenance or has suffered some other issue (eg vandalism or something like a passenger taking ill on board), they're 4 years old now so have certainly been broken in by now.

X21 is quite a noticeable one for stand-ins as there now isn't a dedicated Xlines liveried spare at CLS since the PVR increase (same with X20) and the usual stand ins on the X21 being typically a StreetDeck or a Voyager liveried B9 with the latter not being to quite the same spec as to what's being advertised.

X20 has awful reliability with there 10' plate Citaros

(25 Apr 2022, 10:20 am)Unber43 wrote X20 has awful reliability with there 10' plate Citaros

Sounds like that's my next target!

It's very interesting to see the difference between the perceived reliability of vehicles, and actual reliability.
From the X21 at least, they appear less reliable due to the lack of dedicated spares, I wonder if the X20 is the same

(25 Apr 2022, 10:34 am)streetdeckfan wrote Sounds like that's my next target!

It's very interesting to see the difference between the perceived reliability of vehicles, and actual reliability.
From the X21 at least, they appear less reliable due to the lack of dedicated spares, I wonder if the X20 is the same

I honestly can't remember a day all 6 where on. 

There is always atleast two on. I remember one day last week there was only 2-3 on

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(25 Apr 2022, 10:34 am)streetdeckfan wrote Sounds like that's my next target!

It's very interesting to see the difference between the perceived reliability of vehicles, and actual reliability.
From the X21 at least, they appear less reliable due to the lack of dedicated spares, I wonder if the X20 is the same

But I mean even the other Citaros struggle, which its an idea I keep suggesting, replace the 20 & 60 with new buses & send those buses to cover old citaros and keep the 10' Plates as spares. 

I would love to see some EvoSetis on the 20 or 56.

Hasn't it been said elsewhere the Deptford Citaros are currently receiving modifications, well maybe they focusing on the X20 ones atm.

(25 Apr 2022, 10:42 am)Unber43 wrote I honestly can't remember a day all 6 where on. 

There is always atleast two on. I remember one day last week there was only 2-3 on

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But I mean even the other Citaros struggle, which its an idea I keep suggesting, replace the 20 & 60 with new buses & send those buses to cover old citaros and keep the 10' Plates as spares. 

I would love to see some EvoSetis on the 20 or 56.

So, I used the same criteria that I used for the X21. Although, I have counted days where vehicles have been out but on the wrong route, since that it not the fault of the vehicle.

Over the last month there hasn't been a day where all vehicles have been in service. There has been 11 days with one vehicle off the road (5330 has been off the road since the 23rd March), 11 days with 2 vehicles off the road, and 3 days with 3 vehicles off the road.

That means there have always been at least 3 branded vehicles out.

The average reliability seems to be 70%, or 73% if we exclude Sundays and Bank Holidays. Obviously that number is dragged down by 5330, so if we exclude that it brings it up to 84% and 87% respectively. 

Here are the figures per vehicle

5328 - 84% - 88%
5329 - 79% - 88%
5330 - 0% - 0%
5331 - 72% - 73%
5332 - 97% - 96%
5333 - 85% - 89%

Honestly, that doesn't seem too bad to me.

X21 - 

3 Voyagers 
3 - X21 
2 - Spare Xlines

6334 doesn't seem very healthy, was struggling on the hills between Bishop and Durham, and is now taking a leisurely stroll at 35mph on the A1

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(26 Apr 2022, 4:53 pm)streetdeckfan wrote 6334 doesn't seem very healthy, was struggling on the hills between Bishop and Durham, and is now taking a leisurely stroll at 35mph on the A1

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Is 6334 low height? Because I was on it a while ago and I thought it was quite low. Maybe as a Spare on the X5/15 if it can’t manage the X21

(26 Apr 2022, 4:56 pm)Unber43 wrote Is 6334 low height? Because I was on it a while ago and I thought it was quite low. Maybe as a Spare on the X5/15 if it can’t manage the X21

No, the only low height XLines spare is 6336, even 6337 isn't truly a low height decker, it's somewhere in between the E400s and the StreetDecks, but just low enough to clear the bridge at Dunston

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New cascade for the X21

6308-14 back to Riverside and repainted for the East Gateshead loop to be allocated to the 93/94

6335/34 to wherever needs them as spares repainted to 2019 livery or back to EYMS

6155-61 to CLS, refurbished with headrests and the red moquette to be added with extra padding (to make the seats like the EYMS coasters and X93 B9s) tables & USB chargers added, repainted to X-lines blue for the X21
6001/49 to have tables added and repainted to X-lines blue for the X21

Prehaps for spares give those Ex Scotland B9s a euro 6 conversion and refurbish one or two of them to X-lines spec for spares

(01 May 2022, 10:19 am)GNE6312 wrote New cascade for the X21

6308-14 back to Riverside and repainted for the East Gateshead loop to be allocated to the 93/94

6335/34 to wherever needs them as spares repainted to 2019 livery  or back to EYMS

6155-61 to CLS, refurbished with headrests and the red moquette to be added with extra padding (to make the seats like the EYMS coasters and X93 B9s) tables & USB chargers added, repainted to X-lines blue for the X21
6001/49 to have tables added and repainted to X-lines blue for the X21

Prehaps for spares give those Ex Scotland B9s a euro 6 conversion and refurbish one or two of them to X-lines spec for spares

Doesn't need all that! If Consett's rotas were changed as well as the X30/X31 & X70/X71/X72 interworking patterns with the X30/X31 standalone, it would just be a case of swapping 9x E400MMC and 9x B5TL. StreetDecks would be backup at CLS for the E400MMCs and 6334/35 would take a spare role at Consett. Obviously another low height spare would be needed at Consett for the X30/X31.

(01 May 2022, 3:01 pm)L469 YVK wrote Doesn't need all that! If Consett's rotas were changed as well as the X30/X31 & X70/X71/X72 interworking patterns with the X30/X31 standalone, it would just be a case of swapping 9x E400MMC and 9x B5TL. StreetDecks would be backup at CLS for the E400MMCs and 6334/35 would take a spare role at Consett. Obviously another low height spare would be needed at Consett for the X30/X31.

It also doesn’t need all that.

I saw no post on this forum the other day when 8/9 Volvo B5s were on the X21, the only one absent being 6308.


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(01 May 2022, 10:19 am)GNE6312 wrote New cascade for the X21

6308-14 back to Riverside and repainted for the East Gateshead loop to be allocated to the 93/94

6335/34 to wherever needs them as spares repainted to 2019 livery  or back to EYMS

6155-61 to CLS, refurbished with headrests and the red moquette to be added with extra padding (to make the seats like the EYMS coasters and X93 B9s) tables & USB chargers added, repainted to X-lines blue for the X21
6001/49 to have tables added and repainted to X-lines blue for the X21

Prehaps for spares give those Ex Scotland B9s a euro 6 conversion and refurbish one or two of them to X-lines spec for spares

They're coming up to 15 years old. The cost of converting them to Euro 6, if it's even possible, is likely to be more than the bus is worth.

(01 May 2022, 10:19 am)GNE6312 wrote New cascade for the X21

6308-14 back to Riverside and repainted for the East Gateshead loop to be allocated to the 93/94

6335/34 to wherever needs them as spares repainted to 2019 livery  or back to EYMS

6155-61 to CLS, refurbished with headrests and the red moquette to be added with extra padding (to make the seats like the EYMS coasters and X93 B9s) tables & USB chargers added, repainted to X-lines blue for the X21
6001/49 to have tables added and repainted to X-lines blue for the X21

Prehaps for spares give those Ex Scotland B9s a euro 6 conversion and refurbish one or two of them to X-lines spec for spares

Would 6155-61 be able to do the X21,because I think not.

(01 May 2022, 3:04 pm)Dan wrote It also doesn’t need all that.

I saw no post on this forum the other day when 8/9 Volvo B5s were on the X21, the only one absent being 6308.


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I don't know what the sudden obsession with swapping vehicles on the X21. I'm not the biggest B5 fan, but as a regular of the route I'm perfectly content with them for now.

Plus, as my crude reliability table the other day showed, they're not even that unreliable!
I know you probably can't say, but was I anywhere near close with the figures?

(01 May 2022, 3:53 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't know what the sudden obsession with swapping vehicles on the X21. I'm not the biggest B5 fan, but as a regular of the route I'm perfectly content with them for now.

Plus, as my crude reliability table the other day showed, they're not even that unreliable!
I know you probably can't say, but was I anywhere near close with the figures?

"Sudden obsession?!" [emoji1787]

Stand-ins of a different type are inevitable on the X21 considering all of the B5TLs form part of the allocation so only takes one to be missing, looks worse with all the 16 plates of similar spec now being sent to Washington depot which only really leaves the ex Lothian B9s and OmniDekka's left to allocate, 6331 is another (maybe 6332/3 if they return to CLS in future?).

Much the same story with the also apparent unreliable Xlines X20 Citaros, looking on bustimes.org, only 5330 was missing from service yesterday (which hasn't been out since March 23rd).

(01 May 2022, 7:40 pm)Jimmi wrote "Sudden obsession?!" [emoji1787]

Stand-ins of a different type are inevitable on the X21 considering all of the B5TLs form part of the allocation so only takes one to be missing, looks worse with all the 16 plates of similar spec now being sent to Washington depot which only really leaves the ex Lothian B9s and OmniDekka's left to allocate, 6331 is another (maybe 6332/3 if they return to CLS in future?).

Much the same story with the also apparent unreliable Xlines X20 Citaros, looking on bustimes.org, only 5330 was missing from service yesterday (which hasn't been out since March 23rd).

I think the sudden obsession stems from some posters on this forum spending far too much time monitoring BusTimes for any anomalies in services, then posting as fact as if they've witnessed it with their own eyes.

(01 May 2022, 7:51 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I think the sudden obsession stems from some posters on this forum spending far too much time monitoring BusTimes for any anomalies in services, then posting as fact as if they've witnessed it with their own eyes.

By montering bus times do you mean a 20 second check, while I am seeing where the X21 is that I am getting.

(01 May 2022, 7:51 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I think the sudden obsession stems from some posters on this forum spending far too much time monitoring BusTimes for any anomalies in services, then posting as fact as if they've witnessed it with their own eyes.

And they don't even bother to break out the spreadsheet to see if the horrendously unreliable vehicles are actually unreliable, or if it's just because of GNE's sheer incompetence when it comes to having spares of the correct spec that gives the impression that they're unreliable.

And they call themselves enthusiasts, they should be ashamed of themselves 

(01 May 2022, 3:04 pm)Dan wrote It also doesn’t need all that.

I saw no post on this forum the other day when 8/9 Volvo B5s were on the X21, the only one absent being 6308.


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But why have Arriva used them as their choice of vehicle on the Ashington & Alnwick 'X' routes? The E400 classics allocated to the X15/X18 have done well although well overdue for replacement now given the nature of their work, and they're about to receive 19x E400MMC.

GNE's B9TLs 6043-6048 lasted five years (although with a struggle at times) on the X9/X10. As for the B5TLs, replacements were being talked about only after 2.5 years just before covid hit. Okay I know the X9/X10 were a different kettle of fish but the X21 is still too much for the B5TLs.

As long as a low bridge decker spare was sorted to cover the X30/X31, having a stable fleet of 9x E400MMC on the X21 (with StreetDecks used as spares), and a stable fleet of 7x B5TL on the X70/X71/X72 (with 6334/35 actually more suited to a 'proper' spare role due to them being ex dealer stock) would be far better than now with both allocations matching the exact PVR.

(02 May 2022, 9:32 am)L469 YVK wrote But why have Arriva used them as their choice of vehicle on the Ashington & Alnwick 'X' routes? The E400 classics allocated to the X15/X18 have done well although well overdue for replacement now given the nature of their work, and they're about to receive 19x E400MMC.

The Ashington express routes (bar the X21/22) are arguably much more demanding than the GNE X21 - the X14 up at Thropton is very hilly, the X15 is constant foot down on the A1, the X18 is rural NSL roads virtually the entire way combined with A1 flogging north of Belford, and the X20 is a combination of the X15 and X18 in that it's constant foot down for the southern section and NSL country roads north of Ashington. 

Aside from this being more demanding than the GNE X21, there was no B5TL available when they first started gaining E400s and at this point fleet standardisation is probably reasonably important.

(02 May 2022, 10:11 am)mb134 wrote The Ashington express routes (bar the X21/22) are arguably much more demanding than the GNE X21 - the X14 up at Thropton is very hilly, the X15 is constant foot down on the A1, the X18 is rural NSL roads virtually the entire way combined with A1 flogging north of Belford, and the X20 is a combination of the X15 and X18 in that it's constant foot down for the southern section and NSL country roads north of Ashington. 

Aside from this being more demanding than the GNE X21, there was no B5TL available when they first started gaining E400s and at this point fleet standardisation is probably reasonably important.

But that shows how good they are. Okay they're not perfect but they do the job very well within reasonable limits.

Other than the short stretch on the A1, and the northbound A167 section after the Honest Lawyer, I don't think the X21 is that demanding of a route. I think there are 2 proper hills on the route (Croxdale and Coundon), the rest of it is just relatively flat 50/60mph roads. Which, is no problem at all for a B5 since long higher speed stretches are where smaller displacement engines are suited. You only really need the 'power' of a larger engine if the route has a lot of hills, as it can generate the torque needed to push the vehicle up without putting as much stress on the engine, whereas a smaller engine would rely on the turbo more to generate that torque.

E400s would be nothing short of overkill for the route, and no doubt use more fuel. From about 2 seconds of googling, the E400s get around 6mpg, the B5s 8mpg, and the StreetDecks 9mpg, obviously this depends on the route, but I'd imagine the fact the B5s have a gearbox that is suited to driving faster than 30mph, unlike the StreetDecks, the B5s probably end up around the same if not a bit better fuel wise than the StreetDecks on the X21.

I Appreciate the downstairs space that the B5s offer. I will go upstairs if I have plenty of time to get down and have very little to carry but prefer not to and sometimes just plain can't.

(02 May 2022, 11:01 am)L469 YVK wrote But that shows how good they are. Okay they're not perfect but they do the job very well within reasonable limits.

Yes they are good, but for routes like GNEs X21 they're arguably overkill. Even for the ANE X21/22 they're arguably overkill, though the extra power does probably come in handy with the extremely tight evening/Sunday/BH timetables - and they aid with fleet flexibility (especially with the ongoing debranding). 

Given GNE don't seem to be quite as big on fleet standardisation, and don't have any other routes out of CLS that are too demanding, the B5TL is arguably the perfect vehicle for their X21.

(02 May 2022, 11:31 am)streetdeckfan wrote E400s would be nothing short of overkill for the route, and no doubt use more fuel. From about 2 seconds of googling, the E400s get around 6mpg, the B5s 8mpg, and the StreetDecks 9mpg, obviously this depends on the route, but I'd imagine the fact the B5s have a gearbox that is suited to driving faster than 30mph, unlike the StreetDecks, the B5s probably end up around the same if not a bit better fuel wise than the StreetDecks on the X21.

Well if that's the case, why didn't GNE & EY follow Lothian and order the B5TL chassis with the ADL E400MMC bodywork rather than ordering the integral Dennis Trident 2 / Cummins chassis especially given the MCV B5TLs that EY already have?

Are they the figures quoted and obtained from actual operators or book figures by manufacturers? You also have to remember that the ADL/Cummins option on the Enviro 400 now comes with Stop/Start too. You have to also remember that the quoted figures don't take into account specific conditions too and some vehicles might actually end up being more efficient than others depending on the route. It wasn't that too long ago that the E400 was considered the "lightweight" option over the likes of the B9TL etc.

But if you look at the current situation regardless of the vehicle types allocated, re-allocating to match the exact PVRs (and not using spare ex dealer stock vehicles to form the PVR) would make more sense.

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(02 May 2022, 8:09 pm)mb134 wrote Yes they are good, but for routes like GNEs X21 they're arguably overkill. Even for the ANE X21/22 they're arguably overkill, though the extra power does probably come in handy with the extremely tight evening/Sunday/BH timetables - and they aid with fleet flexibility (especially with the ongoing debranding). 

Given GNE don't seem to be quite as big on fleet standardisation, and don't have any other routes out of CLS that are too demanding, the B5TL is arguably the perfect vehicle for their X21.

I'd say the E400 / E400MMC is the right vehicle for the X21/X22. However, that's not to say something like a StreetDeck couldn't handle the routes as GNE are using them fine on the X1 now given the extensions to Dalton Park and Peterlee.

(03 May 2022, 8:40 pm)L469 YVK wrote Well if that's the case, why didn't GNE & EY follow Lothian and order the B5TL chassis with the ADL E400MMC bodywork rather than ordering the integral Dennis Trident 2 / Cummins chassis especially given the MCV B5TLs that EY already have?

Are they the figures quoted and obtained from actual operators or book figures by manufacturers? You also have to remember that the ADL/Cummins option on the Enviro 400 now comes with Stop/Start too. You have to also remember that the quoted figures don't take into account specific conditions too and some vehicles might actually end up being more efficient than others depending on the route. It wasn't that too long ago that the E400 was considered the "lightweight" option over the likes of the B9TL etc.

But if you look at the current situation regardless of the vehicle types allocated, re-allocating to match the exact PVRs (and not using spare ex dealer stock vehicles to form the PVR) would make more sense

I know Lothian got them after but as far as I'm aware the B5TL isn't for sale anymore. It's been removed from the Volvo site for awhile now. No doubt down to cost though and they're not exactly any better than the alternatives unlike the B7/B9 which are much better than what was around at the time. Tridents for example, horrid things.

(03 May 2022, 9:08 pm)Storx wrote I know Lothian got them after but as far as I'm aware the B5TL isn't for sale anymore. It's been removed from the Volvo site for awhile now. No doubt down to cost though and they're not exactly any better than the alternatives unlike the B7/B9 which are much better than what was around at the time. Tridents for example, horrid things.

Volvo are now only offering the new BZL Electric, B5L S-Charge and B8L Chassis for there Double Decker Range which confirms the B5TL is no longer available.